Women continue to give men absolutely no meaningful reason to wanna involve themselves in the "real" relationship, and really that's their own damn fault. So if they can get a shag here and there without the hassles and hangups that entail a "real" relationship...why wouldn't they?

Where is Friendly Free Spirit when you need her? I'm headed for Oz right now, to force Hugh Jackman to be in a relationship with me!

I guess if a man was like rockin' awesome and huge sack wise I'd consider playing house till I got tired of it. I kind of like the I'm not ready with you thing.

That's not friendship.

That's negotiation.

The sex subject is a fail for me.

For every marriage certificate out there, for every verbal agreement about monogamy, commitment, etc....when a partner violates such and cheats the agreement is WORTHLESS. Hence, when push comes to shove it's all about actions.

If we have to hold onto independence for our survival are we truly independent? If what we call independence doesn't allow us to reveal who we really are to another person or see the person in front of us for who they actually are, which is my interpretation of the OP, wouldn't that make us chained (or dependent) to our view of ourselves and the world? A delusion of our own construction.

As soon as one begins to argue for the limitation in their life, they have CHOSEN to be a victim of their circumstances.

That does make us tougher, and reluctant to yield because when you develop independence as a tool for survival, trust issues arise, and our brains tell us, rightly so, that we should NEVER be too far removed from that person we became who allowed us to live and survive.

I still slap down ANYONE who tries to interfere with the little corner of happiness i have managed to eek out for myself, or interferes with my ability to survive

Sadly my independence has left my heart lonely for someone to love me as i am and to know that when I love..... it's completely. no limits, no conditions.

I'd argue here AA, that it actually takes strength to evolve to the next level. What you're describing as an independent woman (and I agree with your assessment) isn't really being integrated, is it? It's not interdependent... it's more closed off and protected and afraid of being vulnerable.

For example, we have myths, or so I suspect, that to get to the top of the ladder one must put on the tough mask. If I say that is true (and I personally don't think it is) why then, do some women persist in bringing their work-face into their personal lives?

Why do men assume you want to talk sex?

But do people also think independent women "fall in love" the hardest?

Helicobacter pylori a bacterial infection found in the stomach...".

such as ...

thank you for sharing your experience. i shall look that up.

nothing surprizes me. and i know that the most beautifull of hideous creation is alive
and spawn the most unusual of relative capacities/capabilities.

it would not surprize me less or more that the person called the viral to his very belly.

and responded exactly as should given what were the knowing and unknowing of conditions surrounding.

by another call did you find your treatment advisor.

which you bring to our (my) awareness.

which may assist and / or lead us elsewhere intuitively.

rationally .......

goodness gracious for the solutions in the mass which share freely in purpose.
...

the creator giveth cookies and the creator taketh cookies.

the cookies you create are all relative to the cookies you ate.

for more cookies creations ........

cookies r us

If you are currently by yourself,single, solo, unattached,whatever, did you ever stop to think that maybe this is the Universe's way of giving you time to learn your own truths,to become a whole person in your own right?
When I hear someone lecturing, preaching,whining, whatever! about how people are "too picky", I hear a person in distress because they are by themselves and blaming it on the opposite gender being "too picky".
Let's face it...someone who is young, pretty or handsome, has a good education, good income,etc is going to have less problems with initially attracting interest. Prospective mates may tend to forgive more discovered flaws in such a person. That's just how it works and you can scream "UNFAIR!" until the Stanley Cup in played off in hell...it's not gonna change.
I wanna know how many average joes and janes are doing THIS...being with someone that they really don't feel that soul deep connection with...how many are sitting there doing a sales job on THEMSELVES, persuading themselves to accept a lukewarm or one sided involvement because "being alone" is some horrible social defect that must be remedied at all cost?

Um, she wasn't anything close to a "concubine." She was a really old friend that I adored and thought we would get along well together. It just got to the point for me where it started to feel like more work on my end and none from hers.

If I dated someone for 2 years who was chronically late and I never SPOKE UP...and we got married (God forbid) and they were STILL late....WHO'S fault would that be? The "TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS"....that for 2 years I was being a LIAR. MyOh My....aren't we a pious bunch, deliberately conditioning others to disappoint us so that we'll have something to WHINE about once the ink is dry on the marriage certificate!!!!

by the common man's cards that shame, manipulate and guilt a women into early sex....or FWB sex.

This isn't going to go ever well with the forum crowd..
I recommend you give the baby up for adoption. A CLOSED adoption.

I am however curious as to what might be the underlying issue that the perpetual victims have that lead them to making the same choices over and over again with the same results. Are people such as this truly blind to the situation? Are they even aware that they are blaming the other person and not accepting any responsibility for their poor choice in a partner?

OMFG. Where the HELL do you get this idea? Oh wait, that's right, sex is the only tool YOU have,and YOUR survival hinges on having a male to protect and provide for you. Any woman who is comfortable enough in her own sexuality to enjoy sex without having to have an ironclad COMMITTMENT,undercuts the effectiveness of your 1950s "strategy". I don't think any woman here is advocating "emotionless" sex, promiscuity,ONS,FB...but some of us are saying we are FINE with sex that isn't part of a "tool" or 'strategy' to obtain a male partner that our insecurity dictates we need for social validation. If a guy turns out to be a charming 'get the goody and run" we aren't "devastated" or "gutted". We were simply AWARE that crap like this CAN happen. We dust ourself off,tell ourself that "God WILL get him for this someday" and GET ON with our lives,without over reacting.

kinda soon, no? wrong reason to have a kid so soon into a relationship, no?

Fear also has it's place in our lives, our psyche and our basic self-preservation. It is there for a reason.

Guilt??? I am thinking that when wrong choices are made...and the man goes MIA after the copulation...that horrible sinking feeling you have??? It's another little gift from Mother Nature. It is telling you to smarten up and make better choices.

This is ten thousand years of conditioning. If you think that our little 30 year revolt is going to change things like right now...you have a long way to go in understanding what life is about.

lol, we could go round in circles here, AA, :).. but I still think youre bending over backwards to accomodate men.
I dont believe that women are 'conditioned' to feel emotionally attached through sex, .. thats something you either feel, or you dont.. in fact bonding through sex is an evoluntionary tool for survival of species as im sure you know.

A coward is someone who keeps getting abused by the same person, and does nothing about it.

Whilst i understand what you're saying,... why is it the women who feel the need to feel an emotional bond to have sex who suddenly have to change millenia of evolution to accomodate the guys?

i could just as easilly say,..'If men would just learn to have an emotional bond from having sex, maybe women would'nt have to nag them about commitment'
see? Works both ways.

You asking people to change something that is fundamental to themselves.
Thats like asking an introvert to become extrovert, just to make it easier for all extroverts to 'get' them
Do you really think its that simple for any person, man or woman to rip out of themselves a totally integral part of who they are to appease others who may not have their inner wiring?

Lets say im one of those people who do feel attached emotionally because of sleeping with someone.. how exactly do you propose that i suddenly learn not to give a sh*t if i never see him again the day after he's slept with me?

Conversely, how would you get a man who has sexwithout emotional connection to suddenly start giving a damn?

Why do we make bad decisions?
Why can't we react to the warning bells that go off in our head and heart to protect us?
Million Dollar Questions!

Course they'll probably then come here and complain they don't get enough attention from the women they do date, but that's another thread.

I never hounded him... I put him up on a pedestal... He was my world....

PS. we never had a argument ever.

Then why would you ask that? My point was to tell them you won't be picking up the whole tab, or assume you'll be splitting the bill and let them know (or post it in your profile so it's covered before you say hello).

Me too. That's why I always say "I love you" before making love to a hooker.

Gold diggers under the cloak that women want their money, when in truth MOST but not all men on here don't have squat to get taken for. That is why the men are so intense on women only wanting them for their money.

Truth be known they are scared that the women will find out they don't have any ... money that is. No house, no cash, no retirement ... living in mommies basement or in the living room of a friend ... the sofa sleepers.

Absofreakinlutely! I'm not a fan or promoter of NSA, but as this poster says, REFRAIN from building up that story in your head until you are sure he intends to be part of it, and I don't think you can KNOW that until you've had sex with him.

If men werent conditioned to label women who have sex because they enjoy it as sluts, both genders might get along a whole lot better.

Hey, Arabian! Leggo my ego!

THEY thought it was ANGER needed to be TOUGH. They tossed out femininity to grasp that anger. They then placed that anger towards men and TOOK IT PERSONALLY when the men fought/pushed back.

The PROBLEM is that the new woman STILL expects that.. but FAILS to be the supportive wife to the man.

YES we long for the mentality of the 50's.. where we had a clean house, well raised kids, hot freshly cooked food, but most of all.. we long for

BEING RESPECTED AND APPRECIATED FOR HOW HARD WE WORKED TO PROVIDE IT ALL.

Easy to spot. Anyone that has put in their profile "I am an aggressive person. I am strong. I am independent. Or I am a girly girl. I am traditional. I am smart. I am this, I am that, I want this, I want that, etc.."
Basically any personality trait that is completely subjective yet used as an absolute adjective that the other person should instinctively understand in an online dating profile.

Now if you're dating better... wouldn't that mean he is dating below?

^^^ HA HA HA HA HA

Wow! All I can say is that comment is why there are stereotypes about women and carrying a shovel....