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 Author Thread: Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 91 (view)
 
Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 11/22/2009 12:32:03 AM

How poignantly paradoxical it is that the descendents of Lemkin’s generation are now attempting the very same horror that he fought so hard for recognition of and against ever being repeated, has now been underway for 60 years against the indigenes of Palestine.
They mock you, Raphael...........they mock you.

pffft. genocide. you mock yourself, chiny, you mock yourself.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 84 (view)
 
Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 11/15/2009 3:00:38 PM
we've been through this a hundred times, but i guess that's why we're here.
it's not the policy you're questioning, for if that were the case you'd be questioning them everywhere, not just in this very very speicific locality.
there is nothing about "the zionist regime" that hasn't happened and isn't happening elsewhere. questions are just questions. selective questions targetting a very selective minority are indicative of bias.


If a person does not agree with my opinion ... so be it. It will not change my opinion.
no one is born with bias, so obviously something changed your opinion somewhere along the way. oh well, can't teach an old dog new tricks, eh.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 75 (view)
 
Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 10/19/2009 6:41:59 PM

No need to drag all that other crap in like you're always trying to do to draw the attention away from the actual topic ... okay? The Native Americans have nothing to do with it.

is questioning cotter being anti cotter?
i think it isn't. couldn't be simpler than that.

your opinions don't get any credibility if you commit the same injustice you're allegedly fighting. your nation is an empire with a histroy of expansion. everything you have is built on the land of natives. give it back to them and then ask someone else to do the same, in that order. after all, "fair is fair", eh ;)

when you maintain a selective, agenda-based perspective on an issue, there's always a reason. in your case it's anti-semitism, in someone else's it could be they just don't like israel, or maybe they do like say, lebanon, and think (falsely) that one can not be pro lebanon without being anti israel, or pro palestinean for that matter.

i think you'll find in most cases that being anti israeli ties together with being anti jewish, probably because israel is associated with jews, and vice versa. as perviously satated in another thread, most of the anti-israel terrorist groups tend to adopt nazi symbolism.

by the way, there are more israeli arabs (that you consider palestinean) in israel than there are jews in iran. you made that argument to point out that ahmedanijad isn't an anti-semite. well then the same logic applies that israel can't clearly be conducting a genocide if so many arabs are part of its own population.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 125 (view)
 
Pakistan Will Fall to the Taliban
Posted: 10/16/2009 6:38:21 PM
i was actually referring to the present ongoing military struggle with the taliban. calling it "genocide" was only a sarcastic remark, one that probably everyone but cotter figured out, since every day now i read articles about innocent talbanians suicide bombing on pakistani police/military outosts, usually killing random civilians (women and children) in the process. then, in turn the pakistanis air-raid "suspected militants" and kill another dozen or so people. i see a resemblence to what's happening in gaza.
do note that as often is the case in urban guerilla wars, the taliban probably doesn't wear uniforms, so technically they're all civilians. hence "suspected militants" is the term used to define casualties of an air-raid.

both sides are muslims, so technically innocent muslim women and children are dying no matter which side you're on. by listening to cotter i've learned to define that as genocide. hence the sarcasm. what is genocide in one place, should probably still be genocide in another.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 121 (view)
 
Pakistan Will Fall to the Taliban
Posted: 10/16/2009 12:48:11 PM
i'm just curious which side is now committing genocide and war crimes in pakistan, the taliban or the pakistanis. either way, i keep reading about women and children dying and i don't see the same amount of political opposition from the same crowd that has been flooding this thread about zionist conspiracies, allegedly in the name of humanity.

hurray for inconsistency.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 92 (view)
 
I watched the Israeli / US Media video
Posted: 10/9/2009 9:23:39 AM
the report provides a link to both lists, shows the discrepancies and lists names that have been counted twice, as well as an empty line that was counted. it explains that it is standard policy for the PCHR to list police members as cvilians in its reports and indicates that some of those listed as civilians also appear as militant members on other affiliated sources.

over 60% error makes that list a joke. reminds me of the lebanon war in 2006.

now, if you believe this is a bosgus report, you're welcome to prove it wrong.
goodluck.

"organization" - good one.
that would be "blogger". typically not a very good source, but again, the report does provide you the link to the original list so you can verify it for yourself.
if it's verifiable, it holds.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 90 (view)
 
I watched the Israeli / US Media video
Posted: 10/8/2009 11:19:38 PM
assuming the greater topic here is propoganda and media dissemination of what's actually happening, i have something so share. remember those 1400 innocent civilian women and children who were brutally massacred in gaza earlier this year? turns out over half of those so called "civilians" are publically known militants. that is, they are publically affiliated with militant groups. now how many UN resolutions were enacted based on this list? What does that say about the credibility of the Palestinean Center for Human Rights or the UN for that matter?


While Hamas and other Palestinian political groups were using alleged civilian casualties to bolster their case with international public opinion, they demonstrably knew otherwise. In fact, they publicly bragged about the military activities of those they labeled innocent civilian bystanders.

The basis for many claims about the distribution of casualties was in a March report by the Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR). Widely covered and credulously accepted in the Western media, the report was a seemingly comprehensive, detailed list of every death. The bottom line: the name, gender, age, location, and job of each person is detailed. Most importantly, the PCHR claimed 1180 of the alleged 1414 victims were civilians.

Our team cross-checked the names listed by PCHR with lists of "resisters" compiled by the Al- Mezan Center for Human Rights, lists of "martyrs" published by Hamas, the Popular Resistance Committees (PRC), and other militant groups in Gaza, as well as from the Ma'an News Agency, and other Palestinian sources.

The IDF released its own report on casualties from Operation Cast Lead, saying that there were 1166 killed in Gaza, of whom 709 were known Hamas or Islamic Jihad militants. The IDF did not release their list of casualties, so we could not check specifics against the PCHR claims.

Our results so far show that at least, if all armed police are counted, 428 of the 1180 people who PCHR classifies as "civilians," were, in fact, militants.

That means 662 people were legitimate combatants under IHL and therefor legitimate targets.

PCHR's criteria to determine exactly who is a "militant" are unclear. Sometimes they speak of "active combatants" but at other times they state, accurately, that any members of armed groups, such as the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, would be considered legitimate targets under international law.

The team has identified members of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Popular Resistance Committees, the PFLP and the DFLP considered "civilians" by the PCHR. Examples include Adib Harb (brigade commander for the PRC), 'Eid 'Oda al-Shandi (field commander in the al-Qassam Brigades) and even senior Hamas leader Nizar Rayyan.

The IDF has categorized most or all of the Hamas police force as "Hamas or Islamic Jihad operatives" and therefore as legal targets. The PCHR takes strong exception to this categorization, saying that Hamas policemen are civilians.

Even by the PCHR's own criteria, our research has detailed proof identifying over 74% of the police killed in Operation Cast Lead some 206 of them out of 279, were also members of militant groups, predominantly the al-Qassam Brigades acting as combatants against Israel.

Certainly, the PCHR is aware of the affiliations of many of not all of the victims in Gaza . For example, the PRC al-Nasser Salah Addin Brigades, the most extremist group in Gaza which has been reportedly linked to al-Qaida, published a list of its 18 of its "martyrs" on January 22. Yet nine of them, including two commanders, were classified as "civilian" by the PCHR months later. Similarly, an al-Qassam Brigades' leader famous for developing the Qassam rocket, Amir Yousef Al-Mansy, was also called a "civilian." It strains credulity to think that the PCHR was unaware that they were militants engaged in fighting Israel.

Why, then, did they classify so many known militants as civilians? One can only conclude that the reason is to deceive the media.

Such a high number of Al Qassam members among the police killed indicates that Hamas itself does not distinguish between its so-called civilian and military wings. Effectively, Hamas considers its police to be the same as its military force. If Hamas does not make such a distinction, why shouldn't everyone else conclude that its entire police force is a legitimate target?

We have identified 355 militants in addition to the police, of whom 159 were identified as civilian by PCHR.
None of our findings are inconsistent with the IDF report on Gaza casualties.

While the PCHR misrepresents the facts about Palestinian casualties it makes other statements which reveal the highly politicized nature of the group that show it is not a human rights organization. For example, it consistently uses the phrase "IOF" ("Israel Occupation Forces") instead of Israel Defense Forces, the proper name of Israel's military, in trying to make Israel look as bad as possible.

The PCHR's influence cannot be overstated. UN groups routinely quote PCHR figures and reports. News media around the world rely on organizations like the PCHR to give them accurate information about what happens in Gaza. The PCHR presents itself as an unbiased party and is taken as such in media reports. The truth, however, is quite different.

Israel's war in Gaza was not aimed at causing civilian losses, nor was it a war of "occupation," as the PCHR would have it, but of defense. The fact that the casualty figures are being misrepresented is a demonstration of the fact that charges made against Israel are false. We are confident that as our research continues we will find many more soldiers of Hamas and other groups waging war against Israel disguised as civilians.

http://ptwatch.pt.funpic.de/indexcas.php

as someone once said about this conflict, how ironic is it that to get credible reports you have to go to the aggressor.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 53 (view)
 
Rahm Israel Emanuel
Posted: 10/8/2009 4:19:17 PM

LMAO ... are we back to that again? Trying to get another thread shut down?

you mean you werne't the one who got it shut down? ;)

Yes ... well we see that happening already ... eh? They've already targeted Iran and they have been bombarding Pakistan with the drones.

nothing to do with taliban presence in pakistan. the last suicide bombing at the UN center was probably his fault too.


He reminds me of that snake in the animated Robin Hood film ... the one that kept "whispering" advice in the King's ear.

takes one to know one.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 68 (view)
 
Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 8/30/2009 4:04:38 PM
you can say that there is a palestinean holocaust, just like the tabloids can put up a picture of a random celebrity and say they have 4 days left to live. you're both operating on the principle of "if you can't prove it's untrue then it must be true!", and you'd both be catering to about the same audience.


If any other country were acting as abominably as Israel, those same posters would be screaming their heads off for justice.

i can very easily think up a number of countries that are acting as abominably as israel if not more, but i don't have to, the palestinean authority itself is more merciless and deadly to their own people than israel could ever be.
just read the hamas-fatah conflict timeline: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict
I still haven't seen any of those "same posters" saying anything about it.

let me help you out here: when you manage to connect every single thing gone wrong in the world today to israel --> you're an anti semite.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 81 (view)
 
I watched the Israeli / US Media video
Posted: 8/24/2009 12:16:44 PM
I was going to ask you how you think a boycott would affect your life, but then i realized you actually live in newzealand. I guess it's a lot easier to call for sacrifice when you're sacrificing someone else.

"guarantee that the next generation of israelis and palestineans - my two boys included - does not grow up in an apartheid regime"

you're only 26 and you live in newzealand. your boys will grow up playing cricket and raising sheep. i wouldn't worry too much about it.

i'm not sure i've ever heard this apartheid nonsense from an israeli before, but now that i think of it, i still don't think i have.

cheers, mate.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 64 (view)
 
Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 8/23/2009 3:00:10 PM
Questioning Israel isn't necessarily antisemitism.
Questioning only Israel usually is.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 42 (view)
 
United Church Declares War on Israel
Posted: 8/20/2009 3:06:19 PM
All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again...
The fact of the matter is that you're getting caught in something ugly, soemthing that has little to do with justice
and more to do with petty vengeance and personal resentment.
There was something similar in February when Jamie Griffiths called a boycott on the Israeli dance company Bat Sheva just before it was due to perform in Vancouver.
The issue sparked a similar debate (and i'm actually wondering how the performance went, if anyone knows)
Anyways, one of the responses raises an interesting question :


I suppose if we’re boycotting Batsheva, then we should also boycott Canadian artists as Canada has a rather grim record of treatment of First Nation’s Peoples, not to mention our current role in Afghanistan, and we should certainly boycott all American artists for obvious reasons. Sudanese artists should most definitely be boycotted as should all Sinhalese artists, Chinese artists, Burmese artists, and Afghan, Iranian and most certainly Libyan and Chadian artists should be boycotted. So should Congolese artists and…oh dear I give up, the list is too long.

http://www.plankmagazine.com/feature/proposed-batsheva-boycott-sparks-debate

I'm not entirely sure what the United Church is specifically targetting in their boycott, but for all you know it could be individuals that might severely oppose the political reality you're protesting against.
There is something very wrong and very hypocritical about indiscriminantly targetting privately owned businesses based purely on nationality. Especially when that is the very same thing you're allegedly protesting against.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 36 (view)
 
United Church Declares War on Israel
Posted: 8/14/2009 11:42:20 AM
actually, mountainlion, the fact that your source of satire is an israeli author that inspite of his penetrating satire, is a well accepted author, producer, journalist, and playwright within the israeli community only reflects on the acceptance of self criticism and self ridicule within israeli culture.

i think you're the one who needs to lighten up ;)

it's interesting how we both look at the same object and see something completely different according to our personal agenda.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 21 (view)
 
United Church Declares War on Israel
Posted: 8/12/2009 3:10:07 PM

since you asked, while on an international peacekeeping mission left 5 of 8 men under 22 years old behind dead as the result of an unprovoked and cowardly attack on a refugee camp of about 40 women and their infants...
nuff said


Last time i heard that type of nonsense it started with 30 innocent children dead in a direct attack on a school for boys in gaza, and turned out to be zero innocent children dead by fragments that hit the wall after a tank fired on a armed men in the road next to the school that was asked to evacuate hours before. The head of UNWRA corroborated that no one actually got hurt.

So it's not that i'm saying that you're lying, i'm just very skeptic about your story because the Israeli army doesn't usually attack refugee camps. I'd ask for more details, but this isn't the topic of the thread.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 20 (view)
 
United Church Declares War on Israel
Posted: 8/12/2009 2:46:01 PM
Of course there's an agenda, there's always an agenda. My agenda is clear, i'm just here to defend Israel on the forum. Do i care that some people boycott Israel? Yes i do. Do i care that they're doing it in Kelowna? less so, if only because i know how active people really are in this province (not so much).
Boycot Coca Cola? Yeah, good luck with that.
My agenda is very openly pro Israel but you don't see me asking you to boycot every lebanese donair falafel in your city, do ya? That's because i recognize that this type of action doesn't help my agenda or support my "side". Being pro Israel doesn't have to mean being anti anything, just as much as being pro Palestinean doesn't have to mean being anti Israel.

I just find it personally fascinating that people still insist on spending all that energy on this one little country that has nothing to do with their lives.
You're not really helping the Palestineans any by boycotting Israel, so think about what that really means, who is it trying to affect and in what way.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 9 (view)
 
United Church Declares War on Israel
Posted: 8/12/2009 2:30:16 AM
There is nothing as pointless or self-demeaning as saying "Everyone is wrong".
To be honest, i don't care if a bunch of people in kelowna boycot Israel, but it does interest me to see that some people stand up and speak their mind about it. Or as the saying goes: all it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing, so i'm glad that reverened had a mind to speak up.
Do yourself a favor and don't put down those that speak their mind, especially when they're not harming anyone by doing so.

By the way, how about boycotting ICBC, or Translink , or something more practical that might actually improve our lives ;)

boycots, in BC... heh. good one.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 225 (view)
 
US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 8/1/2009 2:20:09 PM
note how you completely ignore that israel had nothing to do with the 2 wars in iraq, the one in afghanistan, and pretty much most of US involvement anywhere else.
if the US was such a zionist tool, they'd have attacked Iran 10 years ago and wouldn't be in such good relations with the saudis.
But don't let reality get in your way.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 223 (view)
 
US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/29/2009 10:17:24 AM
i still don't understand (from your off-the-topic drivel) how israel sucked the US into 2 wars in iraq and the war in afghanistan. How about vietnam and korea, was that another case of the US being sucked into war because of the israelis?

show me one case in history where israel sucked the US into war.

as for israel and nukes, officially it doesn't have any, cause that would be illegal ;)
so it's not a matter of double standards. find another argument.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 221 (view)
 
US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/28/2009 10:39:32 PM
regarding the US being sucked into an israeli conflict,
israel wasn't the cause of the first or the second gulf wars, and a nuclear iran is a global issue that concerns everyone. As for the gulf wars, both not involving israel directly, i don't recall hearing about american citizens having to wear gas masks and running to a shelter 3 times a day during that period in the early 90s as the israelis had to, cause that might just constitute being sucked into a conflict you're not really involved in, eh.

as for using quotes(" "): that generally means either you're quoting someone or your'e intending for something other than the litteral interpretation of the word or phrase. that's not a matter of opinion, that's a fact of grammar. Of course you don't have to care if anyone understands you, you can (and i do encourage it) make your points in swedish, and they would probably have the same effect, with the added bonus that we could immediately dismiss your posts without actually having to read them.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 219 (view)
 
US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/27/2009 7:32:15 PM
I found several links for that specific quote on the first search, mostly in pro palestinean sites. So it's not likely to be "zionist propoganda".

And cotter, if you're putting the guy's name in quotes, that implies you don't think he exists, which leads me to question why then are you quoting him from his own dedicated wiki page to support your personal brand of racism?

don't answer that. rhetorical.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 38 (view)
 
#IRANELECTION - Does it concern you?
Posted: 6/26/2009 8:41:16 PM
so let me recap what i learned from trubblemaker so far:

the holocaust is a fantasy.
israel and the us are conspiring to overthrow iran.
the US is the worst place on earth with the least amount of individual freedom and the greatest count on international war crimes.
life in china, russia, or iran is clearly preferable to life in the US.

and yet he lives in canada.
where do you think you would be without the us?

in the span of 50 years, at the begining of the previous century, there were 2 world wars, none of which were initiated by the americans, both of which ended thanks to the americans. your incredible ignorance is an insult to your ancestors who fought and died in those wars.

were you too busy drawing swastikas during history classes in highschool or did you just never go because it was all zionist lies anyway?
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 23 (view)
 
#IRANELECTION - Does it concern you?
Posted: 6/23/2009 8:47:08 PM

Why does it always come back to the Yankee/Israeli factor?

because when 19 muslims die in iran then clearly the jews did it, sorry, the israelis, sorry, the zionists!
and it's clearly genocide. obviously. what else could it be?

trubble, as much as you dislike your own government, the government does not control the media. the government can, at worst, prevent the media from running a story, but it can never force a story.

now imagine if the enemies of israel had a masters degree and could actually spell "israel", man, those israelis would really be in trubble then!

don't get me wrong, i do hope the best for iran (it's not like it funds and trains hizballah and engages in other such peace promoting activities across the middle east while it's not too busy being the most enlightened place on earth), i just don't see the ayatolas giving up their power that easily.
what are these people risking their lives for? a new president with a slightly different beard? who cares. while khameni is in power nothing's going to change anyway.

i'm surprised the same crowd that's usually crying "genocide" maintains silence while reporters are being arrested and innocent women and children and being massacred.
where are the public boycots,
cries for world intervention,
war crimes against humanity, anyone?

please.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 23 (view)
 
Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, being reelected for a second constitutional term
Posted: 6/16/2009 1:39:57 PM

Protestors may decide to bypass Ahmadinejad and decide to go directly after the Supreme Council themselves and oust them


is that even possible? doesn't the council control the police and the army?
what are the odds of an iranian operation valkyrie taking place?
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 20 (view)
 
Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, being reelected for a second constitutional term
Posted: 6/15/2009 2:48:48 PM
I keep hearing that ahmadinejad is only a figurehead with no power, and yet all these riots take place, people risking their lives and their careers for a new president, why? I also hear that iran is a real democracy, and yet their president is only a figurehead?
how is it a real democracy again?
so khumeini actually calls the shots. that's nice, because he's so much saner than ahmadinejad, eh.

when ahmadinejad says something about wiping israel off "the face of time", that's apparently fine, because :

1. he was quoting khumeini.
2. that's not a threat (in the cotter's world, anyway).
3. he's "only a figurehead" with as much power as the obama's toe.

way i see it, either the iranian majority is really stupid (for re-electing this moron) or their democracy is a sham. either way i'd rather they didn't have nukes, thanks.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 147 (view)
 
How can we solve the Palestine Problem?
Posted: 3/25/2009 10:20:55 AM
what you consistently fail to acknowledge, whiskey, is that attacking random civilians does not constitute resistance.
for example: hamas is atacking shderot because it's in the range of their weapons not because it's a legitimate target.


It seems the two state solution is a failed enterprise because the zionist want more territory than the Palestinians are prepared to relinquish.


that's interesting. whiskey, you have to have something before you can "relinquish" it.
considering how you consistently fail to acknowledge reality, which is a good simulation of the palestinean attitude in general, this is not unlike any kindergarden conflict.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 144 (view)
 
How can we solve the Palestine Problem?
Posted: 3/24/2009 4:00:48 PM

Ya ... set up a distraction so that we won't focus on the fact that they are illegally occupying Palestinian land and building (in record speed) more and more illegal Israeli settlements. I have seen more than enough news coverage that documents them stating that if they can settle the land ... it will become theirs.

That's why I maintain ... this is not a Palestinian problem ... it's truly an ISRAELI problem and we are contributing to it in a very WRONG way


this can be resolved by agreeing to defined borders. the palestinean demands are unrealistic, they've been given reasonable offers a number of times, and they don't seem to be very serious about any of this. the alternative is that borders are defined by "facts on the ground", which is what you're seeing now.

every population center has to expand.
(do you think the palestineans are not expanding?)

this is like 2 kids fighting over a bunch of toys.
one kid is stronger. so it's not at all in his best interest to negotiate. without negotiations he gets everything.
the other kid is smaller, if he goes crying to mommy, she'll force the other kid to negotiate. what's funny is that while all this is happening, the stronger kid has most of the toys.

now 2 questions.
1. in this situation, under what circumstances would the weaker kid dictate the terms of the settlement?
2. what would happen if negotiating never reached a settlement?

let me answer the first one: never. the weaker kid can't dictate anything. the best he can do is get daddy involved and then daddy and mommy dictate things. do note that even in this scenario, the smaller kid can't dictate anything because
a. he doesn't currently have the toys, and
b. he doesn't have the capacity to take them.
which make him entirely dependent on whatever the other kid decides or is forced to give him.

cotter, it's really crucial that you pay attention, because the above fact seems to have escaped you for years.

i'll repeat the important part: the weaker kid can't dictate anything.
make sure it sinks in.

so now you're saying the palestineans are suffering and don't have anything. well of course they don't, that's the current state of affairs. the way to change that is to negotiate a 2-state solution. i.e. defined borders.

no, it doesn't mean all the israelis should take swimming lessons, and it doesn't mean the palestineans can randomly explode in civilian populations while discussing the terms of their future.

Their life is crap under the current circumstances, it's in THEIR best interest to negotiate a change.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 137 (view)
 
How can we solve the ISRAELI Problem?
Posted: 3/16/2009 10:38:20 AM
Cotter, stoning doesn't lead to bulldozing, RPG and sniper fire do.
However, stoning a bulldozer while having your picture taken does get a bunch of idiots on your side.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 59 (view)
 
US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 3/13/2009 10:26:59 PM
cotter says:


I guess I just don't understand [...]

and i totally agree there. she doesn't.



any thinking person (clearly not you, cotter) has understood by now, that having nukes and not using them (for over 3 decades now) is somewhat of an indicator that total anhilation of one's neighbors isn't in one's agenda.

cotter adds:


I never thought [...]

and that's exactly why you haven't reached that conclusion.

first think, then conclude. it might help.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 90 (view)
 
How can we solve the Palestine Problem?
Posted: 2/17/2009 12:54:24 PM

End Israeli Apartheid. One secular democratic state with equal rights for all, including all ethnically cleansed Palestinian Refugees.


so you're saying that a 2-state solution is practically (strange word to choose considering your entire perspective) ethnically cleansed (synonymous with "Dead" nowadays).

and then you're saying that the dead should return to israel.
a...ha.



Would this mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state? Absolutely.
Would this mean the end of the Jewish people? Absolutely not.


Would it mean the end of israeli jewish people? Probably.
Do you understand the meaning of "Apartheid" or "Ethnic Cleansing"? Absolutely not.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 1 (view)
 
missing and/or irrelevant threads in the SHOW ALL list [Closed Thread]
Posted: 2/12/2009 9:09:39 PM
Two questions:

1. why is it that "Politics" and "Current Evenets" don't show up in my SHOW ALL list?
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 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 24 (view)
 
Handing Gaza twenty million dollars for relief...
Posted: 2/2/2009 5:42:05 PM
in response to message 22 (haaretz article):

It's funny how we both read this article and extract completely opposite reactions.
When i read this i see that despite my misgivings with internal Israeli politics, finally some planning and organization seems to take place. About time.
Having plans for a military operation isn't what constitutes aggression, it's called being prepared. Striking when the time is right and keeping the initiative is also called being prepared. Note that this article does conflict with many things you've been saying (cotter) regarding Israelis targetting civilians.



Barak gave orders to carry out a comprehensive intelligence-gathering drive which sought to map out Hamas' security infrastructure, along with that of other militant organizations operating in the Strip.

This intelligence-gathering effort brought back information about permanent bases, weapon silos, training camps, the homes of senior officials and coordinates for other facilities.


see here, while hamas is firing aimlessly into israeli civilian population, the israelis( by your own source) are actually trying to hit legitimate targets.

if you think announcing a planned strike constitutes good politics, you may be right, but it also reflects very poor strategy. Despite what you may think, this isn't a game, the better organized and planned the operation, the less casulaties.

why are there so many casualties on the palestinean side and so few on the israeli?
--planning.
evidently one side actually gives a crap about its own people.

good, i now think ehud barak is less of a moron than i thought he was. progress.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 118 (view)
 
Meanwhile in Gaza
Posted: 1/13/2009 12:30:18 PM
all this hate crap allegedly as a response to a humanitarian crisis.
how sad that we live, again, in a time where all the faschists find it safe to come out and parade themselves around in broad daylight.
has this thread become a bastion of antisemitic drivel?
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 68 (view)
 
Meanwhile in Gaza
Posted: 1/7/2009 6:46:59 PM

Some how I don't think it matters much any more, you can blame it on the Qassam rockets all you like. The fact of the matter is the rockets had stopped till Israel broke the cease fire with a attack to blow up some tunnels back in Nov. Lets look at the Qassam rockets this from Wikpedia...................
The smallest is about 2'7" and has about a pound of payload the largest is about 6' 7" with about 22 pounds of payload. They are primitive at best and at most improvised fireworks. Yes they have killed but the damage done has been very limited.


if you decide to treat the palestinean as children who don't know any better and don't mean any harm when they launch fireworks at their neighbors, then perhaps they're not yet responsible enough to get the keys to a new shiny country, eh?
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 34 (view)
 
Meanwhile in Gaza
Posted: 12/31/2008 6:29:12 AM
too funny.
let me translate what whiskey just said for any of you who still take his nonsense seriously :

basically,
the israelis are shooting their own civilians through palestinean puppets they control, so they could go out and kill all the other palestineans.

i'm sure whiskey had something to back this up but his dog just ate it
so we'll just have to trust him on that.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 31 (view)
 
Meanwhile in Gaza
Posted: 12/30/2008 10:47:06 AM
whiskey, the way i remember it, all throughout that war, guys like you were whining as usual that israel was killing innocent civilians, applying disproportionate use of force and producing unfair casualty ratios.

so rather than admit the obvious reality that hizbalah is well trained and well supplied and needs to be reckoned with you would rather believe that the israeli army had its ass kicked by innocent civilians.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 28 (view)
 
Meanwhile in Gaza
Posted: 12/29/2008 4:11:04 PM
i'm sorry, i just have to react to the vancouverite who suggested canada levels israel.
it was just too funny.

i'm sure many israelis will lose sleep over the looming threat that is the mighty canadian army.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 2 (view)
 
are jewish settlers are the new terrorists???
Posted: 12/13/2008 2:35:28 AM
not saying it's not possible, but the link you provided has no mention of your story, just a collection of supposed quotes without context or reference, all supposedly coming from haaretz reporters and at the bottom it simply says: "(IslamOnline.net and newspapers)" which seems to imply the primary source being islamonline.net (sounds very objective and undiscriminating to me ;)

great journalism right there.

since all these quotes supposedly come from haaretz reporters, why is haaretz not your primary source?

there's propoganda and there's journalism... do learn the difference.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 16 (view)
 
Mumbai terrorism
Posted: 12/2/2008 11:54:27 PM
now is actually a good time go to to india.
all the prices are down and security is on alert (though too late) so it's unlikely that another attack will happen anytime soon.
also, since most people won't go there now, the ones that do are probably more interesting and the locals will extend you a special curteousy for your bravery.
this isn't war, it's a single terrorist act. if this was a coupe or a breaking war i'd say get the hell out. since it isn't, don't treat it as such, it's irrational.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 19 (view)
 
Israeli cabinet votes to release 200 Palestinian prisoners
Posted: 10/3/2008 1:14:04 AM
kish mish, you're very amusing.


Being the most hated country in your region isn't exactly positive and they need to change their attitude towards their neighbours


thanks for the advice dr. phil.


Those people shouldn't have been in israeli prisons anyways, the number seems big, in reality their there for low level reasons israel calls crime, others would call self defence or freedom fighting.



more personal opinions... strangely preceded by "in reality".
in reality, dr. phil, for every "successful" terrorist attack in israel, there are about 20 attempts that get intercepted and never make the news.
that's how you get big numbers of "innocent palestineans" in prison.

i apologize on behalf of israel that you find that number too big. i assume you belong the brand of people who feel israel should fight the palestineans with stones, for the sake of fairness and honor.

i apologize on behalf of all the jews that don't think like you and don't agree with you. clearly, they should grovel before their neighbors for their right to exist.

i commend you on your honorable selfless ideas and will pass them on to management immediately. we will implement your advice promptly and send terrorists to self-help camps instead of prison.

after all, we do sincerely value our neighbors` opinions here at israel-corp.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 188 (view)
 
palestinian politics
Posted: 9/22/2008 10:12:27 AM
i have read betselem and the reality is that you don't have to read betselem to find out the conditinon of the palestineans, it's not being censured from the media, it IS in mainstream news papers and television.

i'm not sure what your point is, that it sucks to live in palestine today ?
no kidding.
know what? we're not initiating this war and we're not encouraging it, and they day they elected hamas is the day i stopped thinking that they are good inviduals ruled by a strong radical minority. apparently that radical minority is not a minority.
i don't think they're bad people, but i know what to expect from a nation that does censure the truth and twists reality to paint israelis as murderous monsters, somewhat like you're doing right here. no wonder they're wasting their lives in a futile battle, losing whatever glimmer of potential they have left trying to defeat a monster that doesn't really exist. their problem is that they are misinformed and used by factions that do not really care for their well being. do i care for their well being? not really. but i don't use them to further my private agenda like you're doing.

should i care about palestinean refugee camps? are they my problem or responsibility? they want me dead. why should i give a crap. let their "muslim brothers" help them. have they? not really, they gave them guns and sent them on a futile war to fight their enemies. using them to further their own agendas, once again, just like you're doing right here. i'm still not sure why.

occupied territories? i seem to recall a peace process that went to hell because the palestineans found it too difficult not to kill the people they were negotiating with. tell me whiskey, if life sucks so much for the average palestinean, shoudln't they put reason before pride ? you'd imagine they would. why didn't they?
they were offered nothing? as opposed to the nothing they have today?
do you really believe they can destroy israel and take control of the area?
do you really think violence would lead them anywhere better than where they are today?
even if they did by some divine intervention destroy israel, the surrounding arab nations would take over and they would again live in refugee camps. if they're left alive at all. that's how politics works in the arab world, they're not encumbered by ethics as we are. no one speaks against hizballah in lebanon because they know what would happen if they would.

on the other hand, the very existence of the israeli news media that you propose i read goes to show you that self criticism thrives in israel, which is the mark of a real democracy. show me the same in the palestinean territories before you propose i live under their rule.



then to come back and tell me of the blessed wonders of zionism.

you're very likely using a computer that uses an intel chip that's a direct product of "the belssed wonders of zionism."

one sidedness doesn't take you very far, whiskey. israel is not perfect, i already confessed to that myself, but you need to learn to pick the real stories and try to understand why things happens as they do.

we don't live in a world of monsters and demons, whiskey.

i don't NEED you to understand the israeli side. i could not care less what some stranger in canada thinks, especially as selectively uninformed as he is. but because of that very reason that i don't believe in demons and monsters i know that something drives your hate and i'm trying to understand it. I need to understand what drives people to hate other people they've never met.

are you doing the same? not really. what makes you ethically superior to me?

so why are the palestinean refugee camps so miserable...
i don't know.
why are the native indian reserves in canada so miserable?
natives own pretty much most of the land in BC. when you want to build something you need the approval of the province and the approval of the natives.
the University of BC is set on native land. do you even understand how much money and power is involved here?

and yet, the indian reserve in vancouver suffers from lack of centralized planning and poverty. they don't pay taxes and yet they don't have roads everywhere.
why is that? they have the money and they have the means to better their lives, yet they choose to buy a boat and park it on their lawn.

were they wronged in the past? probably. but not today.
poverty and misery happens, the trick is to take the opportunities that come and break out of the cycle. the proposal for a palestinean nation during the peace process was one such proposal, which the palestineans have wasted away. wasting it even further by electing the hamas.

what future do they have with a leading body whose very existence is defined by war. a war they cannot win.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 186 (view)
 
palestinian politics
Posted: 9/22/2008 12:33:53 AM
whiskey, the problem with your entire line of reasoning is a faulty premise of what zionism is and how it relates to israel, because your specific defintion applies to a minority radical group that really does not represent the nation as a whole, far from it.

what you need to absorb is this:
zionism = jews living in zion.
zion = wherever jerusalem is.

it's as simple as that.
if you have a problem with jews living in zion then you're not exactly advocating a "single state with equal rights for all".
if you don't have a problem with that then you're not anti zionist.
to be anti zionist means to believe that jews don't belong in israel, period. that is entirely within your right, i just need you to understand what you're saying, cause it seems like you don't.

now ,since you're placing the palestinean right for the land on history, you must realize that generations of jews in israel cannot be excluded from that history, and are infact most recent.
for example: if i have kids in israel, they would tell you that their parents, and their parents parents , and their parents` parents` parents -- and infact anyone in their family was BORN in israel.
but according to your logic they should leave. leave where? you don't care. "back to europe" says the wise self-proclaimed anti zionist. bring the land back to the helpless palestineans. to whom? to a person born of someone born of someone born of someone who used to live in israel. to a person that never set foot there yet proclaims ownership of the land to a point of evacuation of its immediate residents. and you do so in the name of justice, with no agenda that you wish to share with us.

you propose a single state solution. while israel is already implementing a multicultural nation. we learn arabic in highschool. traffic signs are in hebrew, arabic and english.the national broadcast television channel broadcasts shows in arabic. i grew up watching sitcoms on the israeli channel, that dealt with israeli arab issues.
close to 50% of the programming was in arabic as i remember it, in the one single channel that non cable television could recieve. that and we got 2 other channels from jordan and lebanon. so basically there was more arabic on television than hebrew.
sesame street (our version) is ALL ABOUT co-existence.
to bring this to your own doorstep, israel applies the multicultural concept better than canada. do come to vancouver and tell me how many french signs you see, or go to montreal and try to manage without speaking french.
so for you to suggest otherwise is extremely ignorant.
there is one condition here that you seem to feel is unncessary , and that's the issue of the right of return for jews to israel which basically means any jew can be a citizen in israel. which you can say is undemocratic, and it isn't, but it's not exactly hurting anyone is it?, and it's not going to change.

false premise: israelis are getting back at the palestineans because of what happened to them in the holocaust. that's the kind of logic i expect from a 7th grader, and i'm not kidding. you're old enough to know better... this isn't even worth a serious reponse.

so let's see, an equal state with equal right for all....
that's pretty much israel today, with the exclusion of anyone living in the palestinean territories, which you keep failing to realize -- isn't part of israel.
i don't mind calling it a palestinean state, and i don't care if they have one or not, i just don't really see why you expect the israelis to put up with an oragnized body trying to kill them. and yes, as previously stated out to you, that's officilly what the hamas is about. and they are currently the governing body of the palestinean state.

if you want to advocate justice in israel, talk about the subject of "jerusalem residents". but then the good of helpless people wronged by society is not your agenda is it? you have a beef with the "zionists" -- and you think that talking nonsense about israel helps your cause.

israelis are not zionists, and those that relate to themselves as such do not understand the meaning of that word the same way you do, i've explained it to you already 3 times, yet you insist that you understand it better. quite arrogant considering it's not in your native tongue and it is in mine.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 181 (view)
 
palestinian politics
Posted: 9/21/2008 2:10:46 PM

To this end they trained 500 Fatah fighters in Egypt at a cost of 84 million.


whiskey whiskey whiskey, there you go again. How exactly does israel train anyone in EGYPT? -- note to cotter : this is what uninformed, never-been-in-the-region, ignorant one-sided people sound like, and this is the kind of nonsense they come up with.
for other examples, just re-read your own posts.

Egypt isn't exactly Israel's allie. there's peace between israel and egypt in the sense that there is no war between them and the border is maintained calm, that's about it. Israel has no leverage to do what it likes in Egypt.

I guess Israelis, who can't start a day without drinking (at least) one cup of palestinean blood ( except during passover in which we must eat matza -- primary ingredient being christian children) can force their will on anyone ;)
-- anyone but whiskey, cotter, and the other selectively-intelligent individual from california, all of whom clearly know better.

oh and for the record, james, whiskey is pretty much the only reason i write in this forum. apparently you're not alone. I also asked him once what's his agenda and i'm still waiting for an answer. I'm also curious what drives someone in canada to be so selectively one-sided, i guess he took it as an insult, but i'm just curious.

i had a good response for cotter, but i decided to cut it short simply because i don't want this thread to go in that direction. i suggest you all do the same.
in defense of james` message to the c-otters, i spent 90% of my life in israel and i don't think i'm preaching war or hate here in any way. any of my recent posts will back me up on that. so if james` words don't work for you, cotter, mine should.



 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 142 (view)
 
palestinian politics
Posted: 9/16/2008 10:15:23 PM
raveninns:
And this is my point exactly. Hopeless people will resort to extreme behaviour. When misery presents itself as never ending, and insurmountable forces are your enemy, there really is no point, is there?


the wall is an example of an extreme solution to a hopeless situation, it has proven effective in reducing successful terrorist activities within israel.

on the other hand,
the only rationale behind intentionally targetting civilian locations to achieve maximum casualties is in order to demoralize your enemy.

the wall is self defense. targetting militants in the palestinean territories is hitting the problem at the root.

however,
attacking civilians in israel is not self defense and it doesn't solve the hopeless situation of the palestinean people, it just leads to stricter policies on the side of the israelis and hurts the palestineans even more.

as to the subject of respected treaties, as per the native analogy, there was a great deal of land bought by the jews, legally. even by your own standards the solution is not -- simply "for the israelis to leave".

and besides, as bear suggests, let's keep it real, the israelis aren't going anywhere.

explosivesheep: you're right, it's a two sided story, and the israelis do have their share of wrong doing, but knowing that a box contains nails does not grant you the ability to pull out a straw from the box and use it to hang a picture. you still need to choose the nail. you're welcome to criticise israel, as is whiskey, i just need to see criticism that's based on reality and not lies or the picture just doesn't hang right. believe me, it's there.

i don't know why the palestinean propoganda machine has to lie when there are so many simple truths they can and don't use that support their cause. i guess we spoiled them by so readily accepting their lies as facts.

as for the hizballah: they've recently butchered their own lebanese countrymen who opposed them, much like the hamas did a while ago to the fatah opposition, which is precisely the topic of this thread.

seeing how this is their way of handling opposition, and not as rogue individuals but as an organized policy, they should be the last to complain about israel's tactics.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 132 (view)
 
palestinian politics
Posted: 9/15/2008 9:31:17 PM
I have to wonder. i keep seeing random strangers walking into this thread, complaining about being called anti-semites whereas i haven't seen that happen here, not once.
Curious, eh? What's up with that?

I can think of a few who deserve the title, maybe i should start waving it around...

whiskey, you've outdone yourself in your latest post :) that sounds very much like hizballah rehtorics to me. sadly i must haunt you like a shadow to bring to public awareness that everything you say is propogandic drivel backed by no real source, which you probably got from some internet hate page made by a 15 year old with a lot of spare time.

I'd ask you if you have any sources for that, but we've been through this dance before so i just won't bother this time.

as scorpion and bear put it, more gracefully than i could ever manage, you whiskey, are the source of the conflict. the witness who swallows the nonsense and propagates it, delivering lies as facts, making the world simpler. blacks against whites, jews against arabs.

i'm just curious why.

i'd ask you, but you've not answered any of my questions, ever.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 112 (view)
 
palestinean politics
Posted: 9/4/2008 3:56:06 PM
how many generations of jews born in israel does it take to legitimize the "most recent historical claim" issue ? and on the same coin, how many generations of palestineans not born in israel does it take to delegitimize their calim to the land?

you need to realize that based on "historical claim" everyone is entitled to the land and this won't help solve anything.

whiskey, you said the fatah was trained by the israelis in egypt. egypt and israel don't get along that well. why would egypt do anything for israel? what do they get out of the fall of hamas?
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 99 (view)
 
palestinean politics
Posted: 8/15/2008 4:09:08 AM
dear whiskey,
hamas is a terrorist organization. it targets civilians as a policy.
despite what you would like us to believe, suicide bombing takes significant amount of logistics and planning to execute, especially in israel.
being the elected body of the palestinean people does not change the fact that they have not changed their manifest or their policy.

say what you want, the palestineans are not and have never been an official enemy or target of the israeli people, the israeli government, or the israeli military, sadly your innocent hamas does not show the same degree of discerning.

as for war crimes. targetting civilians is probably a war crime, yet i've never seen you, not once, refer to the hamas as war criminals. hell, according to you they're not even terrorists.

whiskey, since you show double standards in your inconsistent logic, you show about as much spine as the french politicians and your arguments carry the same weight.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 95 (view)
 
palestinean politics
Posted: 8/14/2008 6:51:36 PM
dear saver,

israel does not assasinate "palestinean leaders", it assasinates hamas leaders, the sad fact that 80% of palestineans democractically elected a terrorist organization to front their cause is entirely (well, at least 80%) their fault.

the reason why houses of families of suicide bombers were demolished (and i'm not all too sure if that still happens today) is because the israelis have to deal with the source of suicide bombing.

if hamas says "go kill jews and become a martyr, we'll take care of your family."
they have to know that no, their family will not be taken care of. you might think it's harsh, and unfair, and it probably is, but those are the terms, and they know it when they go suicide bombing and that makes some difference.

between a 100 random civilians and the family of a suicide bomber, who probably knew about it and did nothing, i'd go with the 100 civilians.

the fact that you blame internal palestinean violence on the israelis is absurd.

as for the french, who were supposed to lead europe into afghanistan and backed out on everyone at the last moment, allow me to dismiss anything that comes out of french politics until they show they have a spine.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 140 (view)
 
Israeli Academic Suggests Nuking Iran
Posted: 8/13/2008 11:42:24 AM

The problem being , that we only hear from one side.

which side would that be?
talk about ambiguity :)
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 64 (view)
 
palestinean politics
Posted: 8/8/2008 6:26:14 AM
whiskey writes:


The Encyclopedia Of The Palestinian Problem is an enclopedia with history well supported by extensive bibliography. It is forewarded by two professors of international law, Francis Boyle and John Quigley, who vetted it carefully.



Encyclopedia of the Palestine Problem by Issa Nakhleh


so this is what issa nakleh has to say in a conference in chicago

Nakhleh:
"My Sisters and Brothers, I am going to address you tonight about the Zionist conspiracy to destroy Al Masjid Al Aqsa, Al Kupa Til Sakrah, wa Haram Al Sharif and to build a Jewish Temple. Now what the Jews are doing every month, everyday they make resolutions, all rabbis in the United States in England, and in Israel, they make meetings, conferences and they declare that they have to destroy Al Masjid Al Aqsa and build the Temple."

http://www.investigativeproject.org/article/240

whiskey continues:


truth speaks and those who have committed crimes against peace and crimes against humanity are obliged to take notice.


how about crimes against proper journalism?

this is not a valid source.
 aterribleaspect
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 131 (view)
 
Israeli Academic Suggests Nuking Iran
Posted: 8/6/2008 11:18:55 PM

The use of the "wipe israel off the map" canard , delivered with the patented bushs' "smoking gun" straight-faced lie,falsely implys Ahminejad has the power to unleash the power of the sun, when in fact he is little more than a figurehead. They have used this fear-mongering tactic many times, I wonder if it still works.


fear-mongering tactics, much unlike defining the zionists as barbarian thieving murderers.


So why do the zionists want to destroy Iran? Iran , by its' support of Lebanon and Syria stands in the way of the zionist dream of eretz israel, israel from the nile to the euphrates ,(or as herzl said, "the brook in Egypt") Far from being an" existenial threat" Iran is an existential barrier.


whiskey, speaking of important figureheads in today's political arena, when's the last time hertzel held a press conference?
 
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