msg 14: confidence is no self-doubt whatsoever= never questioning yourself.

Many of us got fed up with pretending to have respect for religion , and listening to their garbage with a respectful indifference

The newest load of crap the church is shoveling out: "Without God, there are no good morals."

Really? How you figure? You mean - every unsaved person thinks murder and theft is morally acceptable? What a bunch of hoey.

I saw the movie when i was young and impressionable... I was horrified and tormented for a long time after. Thankfully i developed a logical side or i would of committed suicide I'm sure.

I think sensationalizing such things like that are insidious and prey apon people who are impressionable. I was scared to death that i was going to be left behind and would have to have my head cut off to go to heaven. What kind of lesson is that???

shocking really

its hard to believe that armeggedon will start in Jerusalem , however, the new hotspot for world conflict is now in that part of the world

But since understanding came so long a time after difference, wouldn't it make more sense to think we are here just to be different?

Why does there have to be some weirdo motives behind our existence?

If your god knows all outcomes how could this be a challenge? You really make no sense to me...

So do countless other faiths and ways... Maybe you should broaden your Horus Sons

That's right... You can learn from them or call them dangerous...

One is an uplifting experience and one causes even further separation.

Perfect! So in order for no one to go to Hell, your god can celebrate difference instead of condemning it, right? Since it's more powerful than we are, and it made us in the first place, shouldn't this god just accept difference? No Hell... Problem solved.

You think we should fear the natural world or respect it? Fear and respect are NOT the same thing.

You don't look at things objectively when you look at them through fear... Fear is subjective! Plus is used as a weapon... How do you bring a message of peace through means of a weapon?

First, how exactly can someone force God to do anything?

And are YOU not choosing christianity over the other belief systems available in the world?? Aren't we all essentailly picking and choosing that which works for ourselves in this regard??

How then can you say that others are making a poor choice if it works for them? How does another's choice of belief even affect you??

The Bible evolves with each individuals personal interpretation. And for those who would follow, there is a severe lack of will to know for themselves what they might believe.

So read it, interpret it and live the parts that you deem worthy of a good person. In this way, it becomes personal, and evolves to your needs, not to the needs of the masses

Of course we are... That's why I laugh at the disease of fear you would spread like marmalade on toast! You talk of sending us to Hell, not I!

If some sort of mutual understanding is ever accomplished then to reach it, one must conform to it.


This is backwards thinking... mutual understanding is learning from differences and accepting those differences...

Not pretending they don't exist so peoples last thoughts are "What if I'm wrong?" That is not cool... Last thoughts should be filled with wonder, not fear... All of life for that matter.

Which side did you say you were on again?

Mutual understanding is what I'm talking about... You are talking about conformity

I would agree... I don't think morality existed until we decided to have morals(When we saw and understood the first pain)... On your overall statement that we are born bad and going to Hell if we don't see the same as others, I think you're off the mark...

I think we put ourselves here out of boredom... Without knowing about consequences...I think that's why absolutely everything is different than everything else... And why things evolve.

You're missing the point... One never knows the outcome of an altruistic act... Saving a drowning victim is an altruistic act because we all know some of us panic and can take us down with them... An altruistic person would take that risk... If they die during the act, they take your whole argument with them...

If we're born short of the bullseye, wouldn't that be the sin of whoever/whatever created us? Does the arrow take the blame for the archer? Only if the arrow shot itself, I think...

God, your a happy soul aren't ya? You should try and get out more numbers... do you know what living is? I don't think you'll find many nuns on plentyoffish… or should that be plenty offish?

And yet YOU are on here saying that your perception is the only one and if people do not believe as YOU do, well then.. fire and brimstone? Wow... all I was trying to convey is that others can believe (or not believe) as they see fit, regardless of whether that meets with your approval

The word? How exactly do you know that the bible is even the word of God? Did you write it??

I believe that we are all one.. and that each of us is a part of God.. how we choose to conceptualize God (or not) is entirely up to the individual... whether that is the same as another's perspective is of little consequence.

We may have more knowledge, but the actuall capacity for intelligence has not changed much.

Perhaps not, but those who are intelligent and brave enough to think outside the box are no longer executed for heresy or burned at a stake ;)

possibly... but these men and women are now able, without fear of reprisal, to share their thoughts and to make contributions to the paradigms affecting us all.. and I for one am glad!!!

We are no greater thinkers, philosophers, or problem solvers now, then we were 100's, 1000's, even 10's of thousands, of years ago.


Speak for yourself... there have been many great philosophers in the last couple of hundred years... none better than Mark Twain IMO, who could outshine most of the ancients

Now unless the 'original' manuscript fell from 'heaven' which was written in gods own hand then how can people follow and accept something that was written by man (men). The power of that pen has influenced millions of people for hundreds of years. Why put your trust in people that have been dead for 2000 years living in a COMPLETELY different time

and and perhaps used the bible for influential purposes?

If the Bible said hell was a lake of marshmellows people would believe it just because it was in the Bible. That is the feeling im getting.

Now if the Pope one day came and said GOD spoke to me, if god spoke to anyone i would think the 'holiest' person would qualify, and he officially made changes to the Bible..would you accept these changes?

I am not saying the Bible isn't useful. When interpreted properly and used it has great value (family values, morals, compassion, forgiveness) ;although used for nonsense and negativity such as implying homosexuality is a sin (doesn't god have limitless love for everyone? how can there be any exceptions then).. is a huge downside along with the countless wars and deaths that have occurred of people trying to instill Christianity in other cultures.. (like any other religion..) ok im rambling...

Are you going to make the argument that God spoke these words to the apostles, prophets and others?

How come God hasnt spoken to anyone lately. (Oh thats right.. he speaks to your prez) .. kidding aside. Now im sure a bunch of you are gonna jump at me and say God speaks to me when i listen and when i prayer and such and such.. how do you differ from God and your conscience.. mind.. spirit?

you would think after a couple of thousand years, people moving forward in science, politics, lifestyle change, philosiphies.. you would think the Bible would go through changes along with man. Rather than sticking to ancient text that was written in a different age.

Shouldn't the bible evolve as well to encompass all what we know now, rather than what was known then?

Do you think that a God of pure Love would use violence to define Itself? Or does this sound like a contradiction? If it is, why is it?

Your reply:
“Life IS violent. You have bought into the lie if you believe that violence is only created by man.”

Your "Life IS violent" was not an answer - it was a remark.

Do you consider God to be pure LOVE? ----- Yes or no?

Then you outright said (without answering if this is a contradiction) that I have "bought into a lie". Before you can establish a lie, you have to produce evidence. I’d hate to be in your dock!

The bible says God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. If there is nothing impossible, why has it chosen to remain invisible?

Do you think that a God of pure Love would use violence to define Itself? Or does this sound like a contradiction? If it is, why is it?

When God cast Satan out of heaven along with his motley crew, did God see what was to be? Or did It conveniently choose to forget?

Where is the sense in having 'free will' if you are then instructed what to choose?

Why is God ready to kill for not believing in Its Almightiness?

Why is acknowledgement of God so important to God?

Fine. Let's pretend that was the case, and tomorrow, you get hit by a bus. Did you choose to get hit by a bus? Now, don't go throwing standard xian evasion in there... you wake up, get out of bed, and a bus comes flying through your wall and hits you. How, pray tell, is that a choice, on your part, to get hit by a bus?

Sorry, n8, but that's simply not how the world works. Shit happens, to everybody, and most of it isn't shit people choose for themselves. What aout the child who gets molested? Did they choose to be? No... it is not only foolish to think that everything that happens to a person is their own choice, it is dangerous. The rape victim chose to be raped, the child chose to be molested, the murder victim chose to be grotesquely murdered. What does that do, then? It eliminates responsibility on the part of the perpetrators. But then, I would expect nothing less... after all, God holds everyone accountable but Himself

No, the parents don't have to explain, but they should at leasttry anyway. Most people, if they really loved their kids, would at least try to convey that they are not doing it to cause the child pain, if nothing else. And Yes, the children will be resentful.

However, to make it an accurate analogy, the Parents would have to destroy the park while the kids, or some of their little friends, are still in the park. then tell their kids that their friends were bad people and deserved to die, and that if they don't behave, they'll die, too. But if they behave, the Parents will build them an even bigger, nicer park!

And why did the Parents destroy their own park? While kids were inside? Because they wanted to. They didn't have to, as they owned it and nobody could take it... they could have just fixed it up, but no. They wanted it gone, and they wanted to kill lots of little kids in the process.

Again, likening yourself to a petulant, spoiled, argumentative toddler having himself a tantrum. Everything makes much more sense now. And you still have to go to bed. ;-)

I don't know of any decent parent that would threaten their child with endless suffering to coerce them to behave, promise them endless fun if they do, then turn around and tell them they are going to get the endless beating anyway unless the Parent changes their inscrutable and impossible-to-understand mind.

Except that He doesn't. You slip up once, and God sends you to your room and you never get to leave. God doesn't open hisarms for you to come running back, he leaves you in the cold and in the dark.

Sorry, but the "God as Daddy" analogy simply doesn't work. No parent would willingly let something terrible happen to their child while they stood by and watched: fully able to intervene, but choosing not to. That sounds like a sadistic prat more than a loving Daddy. I hope you don't raise your own kids by that model

I disagree. I am quite well aware that, in all cases, we have a choice. Just as I choose to point out that the analogies presented do not satisfy the point that is apparently being made. Given the choices in the analogies, there are a multitude of actions people could opt to take. That's choice.

If it's an either/or you're looking for, then for the sake of "moving the 'debate' forward", I'll concede that, if there's evidence of an imminent disaster and a credible person (or alien) arrives to direct one toward safety, one will out of self-preservation, opt for safety

I've already covered this one. If the guy was responsible, his credibility as regards safety is suspect. If, on the urging of one's instinct for self-preservation, they still follow him, this doesn't exonerate him of the responsibility, for which he should be held to account.

Is it arrogance to want to honestly know the intentions of someone who says they want to help you? Particularly someone who conveniently appears out of nowhere at precisely the time that you're in peril (*cough* deus ex machina *cough*)?

The analogies given simply aren't satisfactory to make whatever point you're trying to make. However if, as you seem to so adamantly insist is important to the discussion, it's necessary to concede that, in a position of peril, one will accept assistance to safety, I'll grudgingly do so. If only to keep from being labelled "arrogant" or "stubborn"

Ok well. I'm curious how a nonbeliever, whom your original post seems to be addressing, could choose damnation over salvaltion. I don't believe in god, therefore I have no fear of damnnation. I don't choose to not believe in god, likes it's a conscious effort I'm making to deny his existence. I simply don't.
So yes were given knowledge of our situation. I chose to believe other knowledge(science), by doing so their is no downfall I need to be wise for, and no horrific situations to be worried over.
So I guess I back away from the analogy man slowly, make sure my wallets still there, and suggest he move along as I don't apparently believe in earthquakes.

Well if there is intelligent life out there, they may not have our duality perceptual problem. They may not be seperated from the divine consciuosness. So would not worship God, they would know god directly. We left the proverbial garden of eden. They may not have. Could be why they keep a distance. We're spiritually retarded as a species

it was poor use of sarcasm to try and make a point, but once again I applaud your condescending attitude.


This from someone who has his own definition of insanity.

You don't like sarcasm but you don't mind being condescended to ... hum!