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 Author Thread: Shaq to Clev...LeBron Cant claim He's the Greatest
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 64 (view)
 
Shaq to Clev...LeBron Cant claim He's the Greatest
Posted: 9/7/2009 12:21:15 AM

Ball Handling- Hands Down LBJ

Ball handling- LBJ=8.8(10 as a sf) Kobe=8.6 almost too close to call.
Post/Block-neither player is a "post" player....both are perimeter players...having said that, Kobe has by far the better mid range game. An excellent mid range game will allow a player to post up another of any size in the high post. Kobe is better in the high post and LBJ in the low post due to his size.


The Capability of making your Team better-LBJ
Really that is too subjective to call. The LBJ team that made it to the Finals was not the most talented team for sure. The Kobe led team that took the Suns to 7 games in a year Kobe should have won MVP instead of Nash, wasnt even a team that should have made the playoffs on paper. Both players have seemed to have made their teams better. LBJ simply gets more credit for it due to reputation. This season will be interesting for BOTH teams.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 840 (view)
 
Michael Vick
Posted: 9/6/2009 11:55:47 PM
Nah I dont hate athletes .. I just hate liars & Monsters of society......
So you hate George Bush jr and sr, Ronal Reagan and the overwelming majority of politicians huh.
rather be middle class n have Morals then a Jerk
Ok....wouldnt most rather have "morals" than be a "jerk" regardless of income? The whole morals thing......rather subjective wouldnt you agree? I recall a passage in a famous book that says "let he that is without sin.....". Funny how so many who "claim" to have a moral high road in the confines of real life lead lives that leave much to be desired as it relates to morality. I remember a certain republican governor demanding the resignation or impeachment of a certain president who was given a BJ by a woman not his wife.......a decade later that same governor was found to have used state funds to vanish to South America to carry on an affair with a woman not his wife. He then refused to step down as governor. Hypocrites abound

People make mistakes, it takes an intelligent, honest and humane person to not only understand this but also forgive someone who has asked for forgiveness from a mistake. Vick has moved on in many aspects of his life. Those who dont seem to be able to do the same are full of negative energy that doesnt hurt Vick nearly as much as it reflects upon THEM.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 62 (view)
 
Shaq to Clev...LeBron Cant claim He's the Greatest
Posted: 9/3/2009 12:11:06 PM

Not taking anything away from MJ... But who was playing than... that stood out like him? Maybe no one did because he was so great?
MJ came into the league at a time in which Magic and Bird were still in their prime. MJ played against other Hall of Famers(sure bet) in Clyde Drexler, Doc. J, Issiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaq,Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, Dominique Wilkins, Bernard King, and past prime George Ice Man Gervin to name a few. Then there were the all stars he played against who although excellent players likely wont be HOF materials but all stars nonetheless like; Alex English, Grant Hill, Sidney Moncrief, Mark Agguire, Chris Webber, Reggie Miller, Penny Hardeway, Adrian Dantley, Mitch Richman, Vince Carter, Ray Allen,Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, Shawn Kemp, Paul Pierce, Latrell Sprewell, Ralph Sampson, Tom Chambers, Detlef Shremf and Larry grandmama Johnson to name a few. Jordan faced the Bird led Celtics in playoffs and they never had an answer to him. MJ faced the Magic led Lakers in the NBA Finals and they just couldnt hang with him. MJ played during a golden age in NBA history which would have been golden even without him and he beat all challengers. He is still a step above Kobe whose Lakers lost to the Celtics and Kobe is still the best out there today although LBJ is right there with him. Neither Kobe nor LBJ could have led their teams to a victory over either MJ led repeat bound championship team.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 789 (view)
 
Michael Vick
Posted: 8/28/2009 9:34:30 AM
...i do pray someone in the NFL injures hiom so bad for beating dogs maybe some NFL with a conscience wilo slam that slug and lay him down then he can become homeless and we can throw half eaten doughnuts at him while he blows old guys in walmart for pocket change ....while peopoe hit him with shopping carts ........oh by the way i do not like michael vick just in case you have not figured this out yet
That would be a "non-religious" prayer right? Ya think those kinds of posts show a big heart and intellect?

Vick did pretty well all things considered in his Eagles debut. I'd like to see them use him like the Steelers did "Slash" ; qb, wr,rb/slot, kr,pr, db/safety.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 496 (view)
 
IS it me or should HIP HOP be DEAD YET?
Posted: 8/28/2009 1:36:32 AM
Lil Wayne plays guitar most likely much better than the self described "serious musicians" who have posted on this thread so far in dissent.
Its called a sarcastic "diss".
He sucks at guitar, that is why its a "diss" to the "self described serious musicians" who made post out of ignorance. You actually researched it and still didnt get it....Oy Vey!
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 201 (view)
 
Name the artist you feel was the most infulential in the birth of RockNRoll
Posted: 8/28/2009 1:25:02 AM

He opened the floodgates of black music reaching the mass white audience of the 50s
Sam Phillips?????? You are joking right? Ever hear of Black Swan records? Trixie Smith may have actually had the 1st Rock n Roll record back in 1921 with My Baby Rocks me with a Steady Roll. How about Paramount Records? Both are significant enough and forebarers of Sun records(Sam Phillips). Decca recorded and did more to bring African American artist to whomever wanted to listen than Sun records. Perhaps because Decca was a british owned company without the entrapments of American aparthied or at least not to the same degree. Certainly Okeh Records (later bought by Columbia)was much more instrumental in opening the "floodgates" to the larger American public. Ever hear of Sister Rosetta Thorpe and her song "Rock Me"(1939),How about Lil Johnson's Rock That Thing(1929)Rock that thing! Oh, rock that thing!
When you hear those piano keys
It will make you shake from your head to your knees.
Just rock that thing! Oh, rock that thing!
Grab your gal, hold her tight,
Now you can rock that thing just right!
Rock that thing! Baby, let's rock that thing!

Rock that thing! Oh, rock that thing!
Preacher in the pulpit shakin' his text,
Sister Jane's in the corner hollering, "Who'll be next?
Just to rock that thing, oh, rock that thing!"
Preacher said, "Sister don't be so bold,
I'll do something just to save your soul,
Rock that thing, Sister, let's rock that thing."

Rock that thing, oh rock that thing!
Pictures on the wall are trying to dance.
The rug's on the floor hollering, "Give me a chance
To rock that thing, oh, rock that thing!"
Bring in a gallon and serve a pint,
I'm gonna rock that thing all night.
Rock that thing, babe, I'm gonna rock that thing!

Rock that thing, oh rock that thing,
Mama and papa sitting in a chair,
Mama said to papa, "Listen here,
Let's rock that thing, oh, rock that thing,
Got a brand-new dress, a brand-new hat,
I'm gonna stroll from flat to flat,
Just to rock that thing, baby, just to rock that thing

Where was Sam Phillips and/or Elvis in the 1920's? 1930's? 1940's? Johnny come latelys......or in the case of Elvis...vanilla Ice come lately!

John Hammond's From Spirituals To Swing extravaganza in 1938, may have been the fire that actually made the genre go from early simmer to boil.
When talking about the BIRTH of Rock as this thread CLEARLY states, we obviously are talking about the years before the 50's when Rock was clearly out of the craddle and up and running.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 491 (view)
 
IS it me or should HIP HOP be DEAD YET?
Posted: 8/28/2009 12:11:11 AM

There are very,very few, if any, true Hip-Hoppers (not artists) who play any type of musical instrument, write or read or even comprehend chord structures or melodies, much less carry a tune
Again, yet another dissenter who bases an opinion upon nothing more than ignorance and actually makes a post to show it.

The Roots are a BAND. Quest love plays drums,Kamal plays keyboard, Knuckles plays percussion, Captain Kirk plays guitar, Biddle plays bass and "Tuba Gooding Jr." Byson plays sousaphone.
Public Enemy had a huge band. Rolling Stone Magazine ranked Public Enemy number forty-four on its list of the Immortals: 100 Greatest Artists of All Time. Acclaimed Music ranks them the 29th most recommended musical act of all time
Ice T 's group Body Count toured Lallapalooza
Pharell Williams plays drums, piano, keyboards and guitar.
Mos Def plays drums, piano and bass guitar.
Dr. Dre plays keyboard.
Nas plays keyboards and piano.
Kanye West plays keyboards and percussion
Lil Wayne plays guitar most likely much better than the self described "serious musicians" who have posted on this thread so far in dissent.
Kanaan plays Guitar and percussion
The Knux the siblings play multiple instruments (keys, horns, guitar, bass and drums) and produce their own music, they grew up playing Jazz.
BAKYAWD plays the guitar on stage.
Souljah Boy plays drums.
Mannie Fresh plays keyboards.
RJ2 plays keyboards, drums, sax, trumpet, guitar, and violin.

Do I really need to go on? Point is....post like the above quoted are simply based upon nothing more than sheer ignorance.
A further point is that Sinatra was a singer, who didnt play an "instrument".

Now this poster actually tries to separate the artists from "true hip hoppers" wtf?!!!!??? Are you refering to those who listen to hip hop as "true hip hoppers? Who then if not the artists? Here is a clue, doesnt matter what genre they listen to most, most Americans cannot play an instrument and cannot read music.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 484 (view)
 
IS it me or should HIP HOP be DEAD YET?
Posted: 8/27/2009 8:19:13 PM

I am an avid Metal Head and still continue to listen to music with REAL elements, REAL talent, REAL production. Rap is a putrid pile of garbage that puts down women, kids, focus on spreading hate, violence, rape, drugs like a cancerous disease.


Lyrics from a randomly picked heavy metal "song";

Dust from bones dries out my throat

Blood fills my strangled lungs
Aiwass the angel of death awaits me
Possess my crooked corpse..... Oh.....

Possess my crooked corpse
Serpent, devil
Possess my crooked corpse
Demons, Satan
Possess my crooked corpse

Oh... Whao... Possess my....
Demons from hell....

Black coffins glimmer in the storm
I'll raise the dead from their holes
The smell of corpses fill my nose
I see black rivers thundering forth
Dark powers building up for war
Slaying the weak, possess the strong

"a putrid pile of garbage that puts down women, kids, focus on spreading hate, violence, rape, drugs like a cancerous disease." You must have confused the heavy metal mess you love with rap music. There are countless metal as well as mainstream rock songs that glorify violence, drugs and objectify women. Perspective is a great thing to gain, the mind is a terrible thing to waste. Think about it the next time you decide to post.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 481 (view)
 
IS it me or should HIP HOP be DEAD YET?
Posted: 8/27/2009 6:07:46 PM

Yes, a serious would make such a post and it would be accurate
that is a opinion based upo what? Ignorance! Just because someone agrees means nothing more than the fact that ignornce is shared. Agai, a serous usician wouldt have made such an ignorant post. The post 's ignorance is not in the faact that the poster likes or dislikes the genre but rather the lack of substance and misinformaton contained in the post itself. I know of serious usicias wh wouldnt osider rock to be "real music"yet their reasoning of their argument is based upon substance rather than misinformation =ignorance.


The true test of any music is longevity
Do you mean longevity of poularity? Hip Hops popularity has spanned 30 years!

It seems that not only are soe of the disenting post based upo ignorace but also they see to be stuck i foolish 90's commercialized stereotypes of Hip Hop. If you had a clue and some knowledge you'd kow of reowned Hip Hop groups like The Roots lyrics and instruentality are serious by critical acclaim.

Once more posters on this thread actually begin to become more informed this thread will die like the ignorance of the dissenters.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 60 (view)
 
Shaq to Clev...LeBron Cant claim He's the Greatest
Posted: 8/27/2009 1:44:16 PM

1991-93 Rodman, and Kerr wasn't even on the team yet.
Horace Grant was much more of an offensive force than Rodman ever was and as good defensively against opposing PF. Bill Cartwright is the 2nd best center in Chicago history(Artis Gilmore being the best). I'd take Craig Hodges over Kerr anytime. I'd also take John Paxson over Kerr. Scottie Pippen was selected as 1 of the 50 best players in NBA history. The selection alone shows the high regard for his skills.
I'd take Jordans complimentary group of teamates over Le bron's anytime. This years team of Cavs is the best since the Ron Harper, Cadillac Williams, Brad Daugherty, Larry Nance, Mark Price and Craig Ehlo.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 478 (view)
 
IS it me or should HIP HOP be DEAD YET?
Posted: 8/27/2009 12:55:01 PM

anything to do with dance music, rap or hip hop is not music in the slightest, it's a bunch of non lyrical garbage.
A serious musician wouldnt make a post with such ignorance. A serious musician would KNOW that "dance music" has been a large part of Jazz and Rock n Roll from their inception. If I were to use the ignorance of that post as an indicator, I'd say its safe to say that the "talent" you claim as a "real musician" is certainly at question moreso than the lyrics of the very worst Hip Hop, pop, C&W, or Rock song. As far as non lyrical is concerned....European classical music and often Jazz are non lyrical. If by non lyrical garbage you simply refer to music which lacks lyrical content of substance,that is certainly subjective nonetheless, there are a plethora of C&W, Bluegrass, Folk and Rock songs without substanative lyrical meaning nor sense. There are in fact a plethora of Hip Hop songs with extremely thought provoking lyrical content. Simply because you are ignorant of these facts does not deminish the fact.

This thread has undergone a name change/modification and yet still continues. Is it me, or should this thread be dead?
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 259 (view)
 
Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 8/27/2009 12:02:21 PM
No, totally. Joseph was breedin' them kids just for money, and i'm sure when mike was born he was expected to join up at some point
Thank you for making my point about the incredible amount of ignorance and negative foolishness posted on this thread by some who seem unable to read nor reason for themselves. I've been to Gary and have seen the house...I live in Indiana. "humble" is an understatement to their beginnings.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 258 (view)
 
Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 8/27/2009 11:45:06 AM
if MJ had gotten busted for child molestation once, followed through with it and gotten an innocent verdict, we wouldnt even be talking about this today
An "innocent" verdict????? What do you know or understand about the US court system? Ever hear of Guilty or Not Guilty???? The Jury (if one is used) returns the verdict of guilty or not guilty. In the case of of the state of California vs Michael Jackson the JURY found him NOT GUILTY on ALL 10 counts! Still, YOU are here printing ignorance and falsehoods based upon your opinions based upon apparent ignorance and falsehoods. The settlement amount in the earlier 1993 case is undisclosed. Its now reported to be considerably less than the then reported $22 million.

Things like honesty and integrity mean little to these people.
Interesting, that post shows no honesty nor integrity.
I’m a real moron because I believe in the established laws that claim there are standards of behavior for ALL OF US and it shouldn’t matter if you’re rich and famous, we're expected to obey them and govern our lives accordingly.
Good, then you supported criminal charges being filed against presidents Ronald Reagan, George Bush sr and Jr?

MJ found a loop hole in those laws thanks to his money and you fans
What is the loophole oh source of misinformation? Not guilty on all counts by a jury? Whoa, the old Not Guilty loophole, wonder how many high priced legal minds and fanatical fans it took to find that "loophole" in the law?
BTW, Jordan Chandler, the kid who claimed he was "touched" by MJ in the 1993 filing, under a sedative given by his father(who profited from this whole sad farce) In 2006 filed charges against his father for a lifetime of abuse including life threatening abuse. It seems to go further to prove that MJ wasnt the abusive 1, it was of course, Jordan Chandlers money grubbing, calouse father. The father whose abuse far exceeds anything MJ ever suffered from his own. The father who orchestrated the whole charade of accusations against MJ in 1993. The difference is that Jordan Chandler is now a grown up (26 in 2006), able to make choices and decisions for himself. Not a 13yo under sedatives administered by his father, not a child under the abusive threat of his abusive father to make false accusations.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 256 (view)
 
Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 8/27/2009 10:42:59 AM

Michael Jackson was raised from year one to be a superstar.
That is yet another ridiculously false statement! Michael was originally thought to be too young to be a part of the group. The Jackson performing group originally consisted of the older 3 brothers...NOT MJ who was the SEVENTH of 9 children.

This is far from 'humble origins'
What is far from humble origins? Being born and raised in a home the size of a 2 car garage in Gary, IN is far from humble origins? His father was a small time musician turned mill worker. I think to most people those and other circumstances of his "origins" certainly qualify as humble.

Especially when you consider the fact that his father, Joseph Jackson, ridiculed, beat, and put Michael up on stage at age 5, along with his other brothers.
Michael didnt join the group until he was 6 as a backup musician playing the congas and tambourine. He didnt actually get to sing with the group on stage full time until he was 8yo.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 298 (view)
 
Brett Favre to Retire
Posted: 8/18/2009 4:33:33 PM
Farve changes his mind more than Madonna changes partners. The Jets gave up picks to get him and he turned around and quit on them. The Packers were villified due to his Diva antics. The poster that referred to him as The Diva had it right. Farve is no different from T.O., just more widely accepted, alot less villified and less straight forward.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 753 (view)
 
Michael Vick
Posted: 8/17/2009 6:09:40 AM
I like the pick up of Vick. I don't see him playing alot due to being a backup....possibly 3rd string quarterback but I see him playing some special teams and possibly nickleback. As to those who do not believe he deserves a 2nd chance in life....its got to be theirnown hypocritical misguided hatered thatdrives them to be so petty and small.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 52 (view)
 
Forrest Griffin: UFC Poster Boy or MMA Giant?
Posted: 8/5/2009 2:20:29 AM
griffin is good, tough and persistant but far from great and far from being the best in the division. Ryoto Machida is the best.....unless Anderson Silva moves up and beats him. Silva is pound4pound the best.....perhaps ever. Machida has been awsome.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 42 (view)
 
What made 60's music so great?
Posted: 8/4/2009 1:06:14 PM
There wasn't a whole lot o differenes between usic of the 60's 50's andd 40's outside of the fact of more artists playing "race music" or amplified jump boogie aka rock n roll. Jazz bands grew smaller and smaller as it became less popular in the USA on the whole. It must be said that the quaity of music of any era is subjective. It cn be said however that due to an opening of a huge market that due to racism locked them out more in previous years unless a part of large recognized jazz band, musicians and singers of the African diaspora found the 60's to be a bit more profitble time.
The advent of more artist brought more perspectives to music of the Africn Diaspora thus the birth of Raggae in Jamaica,the interpretation of the Beatles, the Beach Boys and the genius of Jimi Hendrix.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 19 (view)
 
Why am I being judged on my virginity?
Posted: 7/1/2009 8:27:12 PM
I say your virginity is a very good and admirable thing. Treat your body and emotions like the precious comodities they are and someone wonderful will find you and treat you accordingly. The thing is, there are alot of bad apples out there. Dont sweat it. Your lack of experience will likely translate into a wonderful sexual experience if you wait for the right person. Sex is more about feeling, true intimacy translated into touch than experience. Some of the worst sexual partners can be those with lots of experience. Does experience equal expertise? Often that is not the case. There are some horrible lawyers who have decades of experience. There are some horrible teachers with decades of experience. The thing is, sex is much less relaint on experience than any skilled trade. Much like love is less reliant on experience. Love requires no experience, in fact the least "experienced" in love are often those who love more completely.
Should you be judged by your virginity. Judged is a strong word. My take is that an intelligent person with intentions of building something special would likely assess your virginity or much more importantly; you(your whole being) to be a virtue and very rare comodity to be cherished.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 24 (view)
 
Shaq to Clev...LeBron Cant claim He's the Greatest
Posted: 7/1/2009 8:11:35 PM
Actually Lebron is the greatest sf in the history of the game right now. He most likely will continue to improve. Prior to this season I would have given an edge to Larry Bird as the best SF ever. This past season, especially in the playoffs, Lebron showed that he has surpassed Larry Bird, Dr. J, Elgin Baylor, Dominique Wilkins and Scottie Pippen all of whom I'd put in the top 10 greatest SF's in NBA history.

Shaq is past his prime, if Clevland wins a championship with him it will be because of Lebron and the rest of the TEAM. No player EVER does it alone.

Anyway, the Magic have improved their team also so its not a given that the Cavs will win the east. The Celts also will give both teams a nice run.
On another note....I always said that Steve Nash would never win a championship and was unworthy of each MVP award. Shaq should have won the 1st (2004-5) and Dwayne Wade, Kobe Bryant and Lebron James were all more deserving of the 2005-6 honor. Nash was a super assist man....but he has ALWAYS hurt his team with his poor to medicore defense. MVP awards should never be mainly about offense. Because championships are won with defense or so the saying goes, Nash has never played good defense and his teams have never won a championship. Doesnt look like they ever will. He does have good friends in the referees though. They never call his flops and hacks.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 120 (view)
 
Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/30/2009 7:24:30 PM
where, in any of your posts do you give "other guy" any due? You don't!
Reading is fundemental. I give the Beatles (and John Lennon)their due. If you disagree with the amount of credit,that is on you. However, by misrepresenting the truth yet again...your credibility is diminished sorely.


The question was of cultural relevancy
It appears you wish to argue at this point, simply to argue. I never disputed any cultural relevancy of the Beatles as a whole. I merely compared their popularity to that of MJ. There is a difference. I purposely outlined my points of contention and dispute. Your rant about the Beatles and Mozart simply was your own muse. Please do not attempt to confuse an argument I made with one someone else made nor one with an argument you wished to make.
In a DEBATE, which is what this is, a declarative statement REQUIRES a citation or reference. You just don't make an assertion without backing it up.
Thats ABSURD! A declarative statement may stand alone. In a debate when a statement is made with which one disputes, it then may be challenged. Please don't bore me with more pettiness. You've made many statements without backing them up.Citation?
but in the strictest sense and definition of the word "genius", Cobain, Dylan, Phil Spector,(John Lennon)... were geniuses.

Michael Jackson was extremely talented, a showman extraordinaire, but the reverence shown to him by his most die-hard fans today is NOTHING like that given to Elvis or Lennon.

I personally do not claim Cobain, Dylan, Spector, Lennon nor Michael Jackson to be geniuses. I do make the point that IF Dylan, Lennon and Cobain are geniuses MJ is no different.

"less racist = colorblind"
I was cherry picking. How ironic huh?
I believe you meant to say "You have yet to make a logical, let alone factual, argument."
Indeed a waste of time.
Your contention seems to be that MJ was not in the class of Cobain, Dylan, Elvis nor Lennon.
No, I made no such contention.

Michael Jackson was extremely talented, a showman extraordinaire, but the reverence shown to him by his most die-hard fans today is NOTHING like that given to Elvis or Lennon.....I guess what I'm driving at is Jackson was the kind of artist whose musical appeal was not all that great IN THE LONG RUN, and I certainly doubt in 20 or 30 years people will have the same critical appraisal of it, compared to The Beatles, Elvis, Sinatra and other true musical icons.

No, I made no such contention.
MJ is less revered than Elvis or Lennon? Less critical appraise than Elvis or Sinatra? Elvis and Sinatra were more true musical icons?Your contention seems to be that MJ was not in the class of Cobain, Dylan, Elvis nor Lennon.
No, I made no such contention.
Hummmm....Are you purposely being obtuse?....not in the same class=less revered. More true musical icon=not in the same class. Seems you enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing. You've wasted time and space going on and on about Mozart and the Beatles. When the point of contention was that you clearly place Elvis and Lennon in iconic position above Michael Jackson. THAT is essentially the point which has been disputed which you fail miserably to prove. The rest is just you taking up space on this thread with irrelevant assertions and "cherry picking".

One merely has to note your COMPLETE partiality
Careful, another declarative statement without citation.
I'm not being negative....merely objective.
Thanks for the joke.
More of this could be refered to as "chat" and is certainly off thread topic. Should you wish to debate in a logical and factual mannor Michael Jackson's place as music icon in relation to Elvis or Lennon. Open a thread and I'd be happy to join.
I urge you to get some perspective, please.He is not, was not the Messiah nor anything close to it. He was a man of many faults...I wouldn't say genius(then again, I wouldn't refer to Lennon, Cobain, Dylan nor Elvis as genius)peculiar, eccentric, misunderstood and I believe falsely accused...still the King of Pop not just of his generation but of past as well...I simply give him his due respect.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 8 (view)
 
Joe Jackson comments
Posted: 6/30/2009 5:12:57 PM
Unfortunately, like what seems to have been the case with Michael Jackson,Joe Jackson seems to be victimized by those who look to draw negative conclusions 1st and objectivity or truth later but only if overwhelmed by the later.
All reports from true friends indicate that Michael had come to understand that his father and his tough taskmaster ways contributed heavily to his own quest for performance perfection which coupled with his great talent brought him to the top. Its been said by Michael's closest friends that he wanted to use the platform of upcoming interviews for his last tour to proclaim to the world how much he loved his father.
It would seem to me that Joe Jackson is guilty of being insensitive, demanding, a perfectionist and he used corporal punishment while angry(unfortunately in keeping with many if not most fathers of his time). He obviously made many mistakes. He also obviously did some things right. 9 kids none of whom are criminals, alcoholics, drug addicts(prescription drugs perhaps however),none prone to promiscuity all this while living in the limelight of wealth and intense negative scrutiny. I believe he loves all of his children. He provided well for them.
I believe Michael Jackson simply was a very if not ultra sensitive kid and man. The affects of corporal punishment were different for him than for most. He also truly missed his childhood on the way to fame. Had Joe not been so driven perhaps Michael wouldn't have been so driven as an adult. Perhaps then the distance between Michael's accomplishments and those of other stars not been so vast. Who knows what may have happened? Mistakes clearly were made but who among us is without fault nor sin? What parent has actually been successful at mistake free child rearing? If Michael forgave his father and loved his father and that love and respect actually grew as Michael became more aware and wiser as a man,why can't the public and fans who weren't there, give the guy the benefit of doubt if nothing else?

"Family of douchbags"? Such harsh judgemental statements based upon innuendo, heresay and ignorance of familiarity usually indicate unresolved internal issues superimposed upon others.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 117 (view)
 
Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/30/2009 2:04:45 PM
As for the album that has sold more copies than any other... it isn't "Thriller".
Quote from 1 of your post. Its of course false. Your attempt at a passionate and factual debate is flawed by your lack of understanding of history and the facts. But then again, why allow facts and history interfere with propaganda? Thriller has sold more copies than any other by a landslide. The album to which you refer is a compilation album which has barely outsold Thriller in the USA but has such weak sales outside of it that Thriller has THREE TIMES as many sales.

A declarative assertion requires a citation.

Be careful there. A declarative statement may stand alone. Upon request a citation may be given.

perhaps his biggest legacy is in that he helped foster a colorblind world.
Perhaps you intended to say ....his biggest legacy is that he helped foster a less racists world(or perhaps less racially focused). Note that it would be quite foolish and even ignorant to wish upon anyone an inability see the beauty of colors. If MJ helped foster a less racist world his legacy is indeed great.



Comparing 1960-70s popularity with that of 1980s-90s would pointless.
No, your argument simply has no merit. Of course taste change. The Beatles enjoyed the wave of popularity of an genre being discovered and explored by a segment of society whose forefathers previously tried to lock it out of the mainstream of American popular music. A remarkable quality of the King Of Pop is that he has enjoyed a career in which the popularity of his music has spaned five decades. Hits in the 60's - 2k's is actually a testament and point which makes your argument....pointless.

It's been said that everyone that watched the Beatles on the Ed Sullivan show immediately started a band.
More fanatical propaganda. Its been said but it is not fact. Its been said that everyone who watched MJ perform the moonwalk immediately got a glove and fedora and started practicing the move.

In 1977, virtually EVERYONE was stunned to hear of Elvis' death.
NOT! Elvis's fanbase was mainly a Eurocentric one. In Mexico, Brazil, Cuba, India,China, Japan, Egypt, South Africa, Nigeria, Russia and so many many more nations and regions it was far from stunning news.
A few years later, John Lennon's departure affected millions, as well (as though in
Lennon's case, the loss was attributed not only to his musical genius but also his symbol as a man for peace).
The very same thing can be said of the loss of Michael Jackson. Musical genius and man of peace are both things said by artists and fans around the globe from China to South Africa to Brazil to Australia to Russia.

Michael Jackson was extremely talented, a showman extraordinaire, but the reverence shown to him by his most die-hard fans today is NOTHING like that given to Elvis or Lennon.
Another laughable statement, the assertion is clearly part of a perception that is out of touch with reality.


Cover versions of their tuness number in the THOUSANDS
When an artist does a cover version it is not testiment of influence nor popularity. Should Justine Timberlake do a cover of a Neil Diamond song it doesnt necessarily mean that he was influence at all by Neil Diamond,it means he and his handlers liked the song enough to perhap redo the song in a way to make it a hit. If Gym Class All Stars do a Tiny Tim song it could simply mean they'd want to spoof a tune and perhaps make it a hit.
Again, as I stated in a previous post(#106)"
What the Beatles did was ground breaking for the fad of the times and actually they set some precedent. I'd call them an extremely influential band, one of the 25 most influential in history. I would also say that Michael Jackson was the most popular entertainer in history."

Their popularity is so palpable that for decades and up to today, emerging and promising acts are often touted not as the "next Led Zeppelin" or the "next Pearl Jam" or even the "next Rolling Stones", but as "THE NEXT BEATLES."
Fanatical yet mindless devotion to an era and act. The were many groups touted as "the next Beatles" none lived up to the standard nonetheless they existed even in that era...can we say "The Monkees"


As for non-musical cultural influence, the Beatles paved the way for the anti-war movement and helped end the Vietnam War (All We are Saying... is Give Peace a Chance).
The Beatles paved the way for the anti- war movement? Interesting claim, you see the anti -war movement began in earnest in 1963. The Beatles stance on the war was made public in 1969! Can you do the math? Come on, why attempt to bolster an opinion by posting falsehoods? It seems to show a great deal of ignorance of history and the genre or arrogance that it would go unchallenged....perhaps both.

I'm not being negative....merely objective.
Your posts show something other than objectivity."You are letting your fanatical devotion cloud your perspective". "I urge you to get some perspective, please."


not a fan of Kurt Cobain... not of his music in the least, but you know what... as a musician, Cobain was a genius. So was Bob Dylan
Your contention seems to be that MJ was not in the class of Cobain, Dylan, Elvis nor Lennon. Yet you've offered NOTHING beyond opinion to show this.
I contend that Michael Jackson was as much genuis as any of them and certainly more popular than any of them. Without question,in terms of sales and global fanbase Michael Jackson was the most popular performer in history. With Hits in FIVE decades, more #1 hits than any of the fore mentioned artists combined, Michael Jackson stands alone as the King of Pop.
I urge you to get some perspective, please.He is not, was not the Messiah nor anything close to it. He was a man of many faults...peculiar, eccentric, misunderstood and I believe falsely accused...still the King of Pop...I simply give him his due respect.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 21 (view)
 
do women like music more than men?
Posted: 6/29/2009 8:28:58 PM
Funny that you only mention certain types of "rock" bands. There are many genres of music. I'd say it also depends on the degree of enjoyment. I'd say that to some degree both men and women enjoy music of some kind equally. However on the whole I'd say women tend to be more likely to "feel" music. Women tend to be more likely to enjoy dancing also....in general. Its most likely perceptual however. I am 1 of the many men who love music as much as anyone. I also love to dance.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 107 (view)
 
Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/29/2009 7:34:05 PM

Wow man, you really don't get it. I said "effect on the culture". On this, Bob Dylan doesn't simply win hands down, it's not even an argument or contest. First of all, "style of dress" is not "culture". Really. It's fashion
You really don't get it. You have yet to have made a factual let alone logical argument. You use nonesense and heresay as your argument. Yet you actually make mention of a need to do homework! Do you know what culture is? Once you understand the concept you'll find that fashion is an aspect of culture. There are merits, standards by which culture and an affect on culture can be compared. Once you do your homework suffciently to understand the concepts and recognize those aspects a debate could be merited. I believe however that once you do understand the concept, you'll surely change your perception. Like the song by Envogue says " Free your mind"
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 106 (view)
 
Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/29/2009 7:11:38 PM
Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band", "Magical Mystery Tour", "Revolver", "The White Album", "Abbey Road", "Let It Be", and probably "Yellow Submarine" and "Rubber Soul". WE'RE NOT TALKING SALES OR CHART POSITIONS. The music from those albums have been widely played and heard every year since 1970.
Perhaps you need to take an objective breather from being submarined in a line of thought that is ignorant of the value of standard and logical discourse in which things can be compared. You call junk like Magical Mystery Tour art and another man calls it junk. Even at the time of its released it recieved poor reviews. But its obvious that you are simply listing Beatle albums regardless of their merit. Perhaps you are just a Beatlefan so inlove with the "legend" and men, objective discussion is not possible. The sales are 1 way of comparing popularity of a work of art. Others are merely subjective. You love the Beatles, we get it. I appreciate them however, I find them boring and priveledged of a time in which social issues heavily contributed to their popularity and still does via the mindless propaganda used by many who like you show great ignorance of the genre and history.
The Beatles were great to many Americans, however you can't find a wedding nor party in African American neighborhoods where "I want to hold your hand" was ever requested.
Even 10 years after it was a mega hit for the Beatles "I want to hold your hand" just wasnt the kind of song played in many urban areas regardless of ethnicities. My point here is that most Beatles hits lacked longevity and never crossed genres nor ethnic boundries in popularity. In a sense time will tell about many Jackson hits but after 40-10 years for many of those hits they are still popular. Again, the Beatles never made hits collectively nor induvidualy in FIVE DECADES. What the Beatles did was ground breaking for the fad of the times and actually they set some precedent. I'd call them an extremely influential band, one of the 25 most influential in history. I would also say that Michael Jackson was the most popular entertainer in history.


As long as we're talking facts, you might want to own up to the FACT that "Thriller" as been passed by The Eagles "Greatest Hits Vol. 1" as best selling album of all time.
Its about time you tried working with facts. However perhaps your ability to read should be questioned. The Eagles Greatest hits" is barely the top selling album in the USA. Thriller has THREE TIMES as many sales as Eagles GH globally. EGH is a COMPILATION album and still Thriller outsold it THREE TIMES! EGH recieved excellent sales in the USA but is weak outside of it. Which is another point, the WORLD has spoken as it relates to Micheal Jackson and the WORLD has found him more popular, more important and I dare say more relevant than Dylan, Lennon, Elvis and the Beatles.

can easily out-argue you on the cultural front
UummmmNOT! You can easily out bore me, make more post, however why continue with the delussion of believing you can "out-argue" me.
Bascically you've argued the Beatles and Dylan are much greater than Michael Jackson because you love and admire them more. You've conceeded that your standards are based upon your own subjective persceptions. To this there is no need to debate. Find a logical and acceptable standard for measurement outside of your own mindset and perhaps a debate can begin. Otherwise, popularity will have to be measured by sales and longevity to at least some degree. On that standard, like it or not Michael Jackson is unquestionably the most popular entertainer in history. The King Of Pop.


He is credited, rightly or wrongly, with the start of rock and roll.
Only credited by those too lazy, too ignorant or too biased to study the history of the genre AND the history of the USA. No rock historian credits Elvis with the start of a genre that started at least a decade (possible 3 decades)before he picked up a microphone. Surely you do not wish to debate Rock history with me. This is an area which is not nearly as subjective as setting a standard for influence and/or popularity(actually comparing sales to popularity is a great indicator, which is why my previous argument was a slam dunk). If you wish to debate rock history or Elvis or the Beatles, open another thread. Just be prepared to have a factual argument from an historical and social-political perspective.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 75 (view)
 
Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/28/2009 4:25:18 PM

First off, there is simply no comparison to the chart dominance of the Beatles. They had, like, 5 "Thrillers".
Thats nonesense. Name the "like 5 "thrillers". Compare their sales. Compare their domination of charts....ALL CHARTS..."rock", "Pop", "R&B". Compare the numbers of fans GLOBALLY from various cultures and ethnicities.


but nobody since 1970 can touch their 6 year run, starting in 1964. And nobody since Elvis has cast a shadow he did in his first 5 years.
In terms of what? What would you use as the criteria here? In terms of sheer volume of sales MJ wins hands down! In terms of sold out concerts and sales and numbers of tickets sales/concert goers MJ wins hands down! Knockout! In terms global fanbase, cross cultural fanbase,multi-ethnic fanbase MJ exterminates ALL BEATLES and Elvis(the mere Vanilla Ice of RockNRoll). Note you compare a relative flash in the pan in terms of time also(MJ nonetheless murders that competition regardless). Look at their careers and hits over the decades. Michael Jackson has had new HITS in FIVE DECADES yet you mention nonesense of a 5 yr span! Domination? A burp in the shceme of music history. The Beatles are significant for sure(certainly not as much many posters on these forums claim however). Elvis is significant only in the sense of the ultra racist times in the USA. In a real sense however, he is little more than the Vanilla Ice of Rock n Roll.
Micheal Jackson had 13 #1 hits as a SOLO artist. This is not to mention the many mega hits as a part of a group or in duet. MJ had a number of top 10 hits in addition to that. Jackson's hits have been from the 60's(1968)-2003. Thing is, the man accomplished all that in less than 50yrs! Hits in FIVE DECADES in less than 50yrs of life. Over 10 #1 hits in the span of 10 years.


MJ sold more records than Bob Dylan, but Dylan had a greater effect on the culture
Jackson sold more than Dylan,Elvis and the Beatles combined. Your contintion that Dylan had more of an affect on culture has no merit. Prove it! Never have seen Dylans style of dress, dance copied by so many people.


same old propaganda
Exactly the sum of all that nonesense about Elvis(the early Vanilla Ice) and Dylan and even the beatles....propaganda. The facts paint a different story.

The very fact that you TRY(poorly) to compare Elvis and Dylan to MJ automatically places him in a class among the best even in the faulted perception you present.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 70 (view)
 
Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/28/2009 8:12:50 AM
not a fan of Kurt Cobain... not of his music in the least, but you know what... as a musician, Cobain was a genius. So was Bob Dylan

I'd readily put Micheal Jackson lyrics up against those of Cobain, Dylan or Lennons. Micheal Jackson's appreciation and admiration was GLOBAL; MULTI-continental not basically a US or Eurocentric base. Unlike Valentino, Elvis and Lennon, Micheal Jackson's music/performances/art crossed ethnicities and cultures like that of no other "pop"/Rock artist....EVER.
So what if an American or some Americans didn't like him. Millions of Chinese did and do. Millions of Indians did and do. Millions of Ethiopians did and do. Millions of Itallians did and do. Millions of Kenyans did and do. Millions of Cubans did and do. Millions of West Indians did and do. Millions of Nowegians did and do. Millions of Congoese did and do. Millions of Slavs and Croats did and do. Millions of Japanese did and do. Millions of Russians did and do. Millions of Canadians did and do. Millions of Hatians did and do. Millions of Americans(US) did and do. Millions of Germans did and do. Millions of Brazillians did and do. Millions of Mexicans did and do. Millions of Egyptians did and do. Millions of South Africans did and do.

Lets face it, everyone is different. Everyone is not going to like ANYONE the same or at all. However, as pop/rock/musical performers go.....Michael Jacksons global popularity and stature places him at the top.
As far as sales are concerned, Hall and Oates enjoyed a very BRIEF popularity of less than a decade. Even the Elvis,Beatles in fact rode an explosive wave of popularity for RockNRoll music as it was introduced to people of European roots. It was situational, due to the social dysfunction of that era in the USA which has lessened today(still exist but not nearly to the same degree). The music had of course been around and popular in African American communities for decades and therefore the boom wasn't nearly as great and they never enjoyed that type of popularity as a result in those communities. Elvis was really little more than the Vanilla Ice of Rock n Roll. His popularity was about the momment in time in which an apartheid USA used him to embrace a musical art form that had been around for decades in African American communities but didnt want to market it as such. Samp Phillips of Sun records said "could make a fortune if he could find a white singer with a black feel" 3 years later he found Elvis.
Lennon's music turned out hits for a couple of decades. I respect Lennon's music/lyrics. I say IF he was a genius so was Michael Jackson clearly. Micheal Jackson's spaned FIVE DECADES!What other musical artist made NEW music that produced hits in FIVE DECADES? Micheal Jackson's thriller album is the greatest selling album in music history. His Dangerous, Bad and Off the Wall are all among the worlds best selling albums. Thriller is by FAR the best selling album in the world, it sold THREE TIMES more than The Eagles Greatest hits(which is weak outside the USA). Thriller is by far the best selling NON COMPILATION album in the USA .

Michael made business decisions that will likely leave his family with a large fortune forever. Moreover as ALL reports are that his children are extremely well balanced, well read, intelligent, kind, considerate, respectful, spiritual individuals speaks more for Micheal Jackson than any amount of sells or even donations.....that is his greatest performance. Anyone famous or not who is a great father/parent is a GREAT PERSON.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 53 (view)
 
Muhammad Ali v Bruce Lee
Posted: 6/27/2009 2:40:53 PM
I loved both Ali and Lee. However, 6'3, 219 in his prime vs. 5'7, 140 Bruce would have had a huge speed advantage against almost any heavywieght except "The Greatest". Ali had the fastest hands of any fighter EVER in his prime(1965-68). His reach would have been even more formidable than his hieght advantage to Lee. Lee copied some of his style from Ali. I'd give this 1 to the master by way of early knockout unless Lee rolled around and ran until his legs gave out in which case it could take Ali an entire fight to catch him, after all, Ali was more of a counterpuncher with an awsome and agressive lighting quick,powerful jab. ALi knocked out some very big and skilled men. There would be no counter for Ali's huge size, power and speed advantages. ALi's skill as a boxer were 2nd to none. Size DOES MATTER :)
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 42 (view)
 
Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/26/2009 6:49:33 PM
Great man. Huge heart....incredible actually. King of Pop.....no question. Bigger than Elvis by a landslide. Elvis did NOTHING to change pop music. Elvis was a good talent but not really great at anything. 1 MJ album had more #1hits than Elvis and Tom Jones combined in their lifetimes. Elvis did nothing he didn't copy(not always well) from others. No artist has had the global appeal and acclaim of Michael Jackson....EVER!
A master singer/songwriter/producer/dancer. A savy bussinessman. Shy by all accounts. Victimized by fame and opportunist. However, more than anything else Micheal left a legacy beyond great music and pheonomenal performances. He left a legacy of a touching loving spirit which impacted and touched millions if not billions of lives in a very special and positive ways. He fought hunger, AIDS, lupus, literacy, homelessness,cancer, cerebal palsey freedom and human rights to name a few through millions of dollars in donations and other efforts directly and indirectly.
His song Man in the Mirror stands as a standard in the call to action to look beyond a box and answer the call of human kindness and dignity from being to being and to save our planet. His lyrics will inspire for ages.Man In the Mirror, Childhood, Leave Me Alone/Stop Doggin Me Around, Scream, They Don't Really Care About US, We are the World, Save The World, Black or White, are all insightful glimpses into his soul as well as social commentaries.

He changed the music industies. He not only was the 1st African American to make regular rotation on MTV he made MTV relevant. His video/mini movies Beat it and Thriller launched the craze as they became a must be home to view event, as became Bad and others. They set the tone and the bar for art and choriographed videos that later pop stars adapted. MTV existed before Thriller but its relevance wasn't nearly what it became AFTER the event of his video epics. The industry changed after that.

All reports are that his children are very well behaved, extremely intelligent, well read, extremely well balanced loving caring individuals. This is a great testiment to an excellent single father. Which says volumes about him as a great man. Popular or not, a great father is a great man.
Much respect!
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 11 (view)
 
Michael Jackson dies in LA
Posted: 6/25/2009 5:19:52 PM
Micheal Jackson was the greatest entertainer in the history of music. He was a great writer,social commentary, dancer and singer. What seems to have gone unreported is his massive philantropic endevours. Hundredsof millions have been donated to a vast variety of causes due to his endevours. Ironic that such an enormous heart should fail him as he geared up for another tour D'force to yet again touch fans around the world through his remarkable talent.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 77 (view)
 
Are you kidding me A-rod??
Posted: 2/20/2009 2:26:51 PM
Lying will get everyone after you
IF this is true. Your reasoning for the "lynch mob" being after Bonds so much more so than others is nullified. Most if not all others lied. ARod LIED. He lied until "it wasn't me" seemed so foolish it would lead to more trouble than he could stand. Clemons is STILL lying(if you are 1 who believes all reports). McGwire sat in front of the US congress and said he never used any banned performance enhancing drugs. By all reports McGwire used even more ...alot more than the "andro" he says he used. Yet, incredibly very little investigation has gone into McGwire who was using them all the while he very publicly made his run to brake the single season home run record. CLEARLY, Bonds has been treated MUCH differently from all the forementioned players.

Why hasn't kingpin Bud been investigated? There is very good reason to believe that he lied to congress. There is good reason to believe that he continues to lie.

In a time in which 11 of 14 MLB players banned from the sport for testing positive for roids are pitchers,its also incredulous that its the power hitters were the focus of scrutiny.

Is Bond's treatment in any part due to racism? More likely than not. 2 Cy Young winners, 7 MVP's,31 all stars 29 of whom are of European American descent have been linked to steriod use. In 2003 104 players tested positive for roids by MLB. Bonds was NOT 1 of them. Baseball has tested since what 2002 and Bonds has never tested positive.
Eric Gange,Andy Petitt, Roger Clemons,Mark Mcgire, Brendon Donnelly, Jeremy Giambi, Mike Stanton, Kent Merckener, Jason Griminsky, Rafael Palmeiro, Mike landsburg,Scott Schocneweis, Steve Belcher and jason Giambi....just to name a few alleged doppers. Yet, there is no comparassion to the amount of negative press, investigation and MONEY put into dragging their names in mud.
Another incredible or not so incredible thing is that John Q Public..aka most "fans" for the most part seem so easily led by any negative Bond report that they really fail to see the facts vs the innuendo and unproven allegations or even the perspective of those things compared to those levied against others investigated far less but with more solid evidence against them ..ie record holders Roger Clemons and Mark Mcwire.

What kills me most is that in this day and age in which the economy is in deep recession the freaking government would spend $100 million to investigate and prosecute 1 person....Barry Bonds! Take that money and invest it in low income neighborhoods including improving schools and job training programs! To take MY and anyone else's money to presecute a baseball player because he possibly if not probably lied about using a banned substance is mind boggingly stupid!
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 41 (view)
 
Has anyone ever noticed this problem?
Posted: 1/28/2009 11:21:39 AM

Jane had a great sewing service. She met many people who wanted her service. She kept sewing for people simply based on quick impressions and nice things said. She never got what she wanted for her service. Could this be a sign that perhaps Jane should change her approach?"So you're saying Jane should pack up her Singer and/or become a whore and get paid for her services"
Nah, more like Jane should pack up her Singer and to prevent continued treatment as an unpaid "whore"(your word). The payment Jane seeks is that which I doubt a "whore" would openly request thus one of the differences between a "whore" and Jane. Jane seeks a real,loving,caring, considerate,respectful, mutually exclusive relationship based upon much more than sex and money . That would be her payment if Jane simply should put her Singer's use on hold(at least outside of her own singular pleasure) and use it for someone who proves worthy before being allowed the service.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 34 (view)
 
ARGHHHHH! Why are women so damn confusing.
Posted: 1/26/2009 5:45:48 PM
Why wait for more hints ? Why not just man up and actually TALK to her. Tell her you like her, you wanted to kiss her but wanted to be sure and want to make a go of actually going out on a regular as much more than mates(If in fact this is what you want). I bet she has been expecting alot more maturity from you than this "hint or no hint..what should I do stuff" being that you are after all 27! Communication is a gift that some find very sexy when used well. Try to master that art. You'll find life alot less confusing once you do.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 13 (view)
 
Has anyone ever noticed this problem?
Posted: 1/26/2009 5:35:19 PM

I'm thinking I'll get some negative comments from this, in fact I'd bet money I'm going to get negative comments but lets try and be nice.
This is not a "positive" thread/story.

Let me put my answer this way, Jane had a great sewing service. She met many people who wanted her service. She kept sewing for people simply based on quick impressions and nice things said. She never got what she wanted for her service. Could this be a sign that perhaps Jane should change her approach? Perhaps Jane should learn to make sure that anyone desiring her service is cappable, willing ...intensely desiring her service before giving it away so easily. In other words, perhaps she should require more, have a much higher standard met prior to getting into such situations.

My simple point is that IF you value yourself,why give away sex before actually getting to know someone enough to KNOW that they want to COMMIT to you? Why not take a few months to get to know someone exclusively before actually having sex? Apparently your way hasnt worked, my guess it that it will never work, why not try a different approach? Thoroughly explore all other aspects of life and being including sensuality prior to having sex with someone and even then only AFTER establishing a mutually exclusive,commited,mutually fulfilling relationship. The lay definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Fool me once shame on YOU, fool me twice shame on me.
Don't hate the player....IF you are a willing participant in the game.
Players need a usually get victims too stupid to refuse to play. Too stupid to build actual clear, mutually gratifying, multi leveled relationships that bring real intimacy prior to sex. A few good dates and nice words does not qualify.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 5 (view)
 
Gospel Music: What's your favorite song?
Posted: 1/15/2009 10:25:00 AM
Great topic! I LOVE GOSPEL music. It has taken on and incorperated so many genres. Some of the greatest voices and best talent in music today are Gospel artist. Alopt of people don't know that Sister Rosetta Thorpe may very well may have done the 1st rock and roll song. She was the 1st artist to sing up tempo"jazzy/Juke/swing" gospel with a blaring electric guitar back in the 30's She certainly was among the earliest artist to do "Rock"(only Gospel). She allegedly participated in a "jam" with legends (Count Bassie,Pete Johnson, Big Joe Turner, Lester Young,Jo Jones, Harry sweets Eidison, Freddie Green, Walter Page,Albert Ammons,Meade Lux ) in town for the legendary Spirituals to Swing extravaganza. Some of my favorites are Andrae Crouch, Yolanda Adams, Kirk Franklin, Tye Tibbet, Donnie McClurkin, ALL of the Winans(solo and groups),Walter and Tremain Hawkins, Rev. James Clevland, Isreal and New Breed, John P.Kee, Hezikiah Walker, Mary Mary, the Clark Sisters, J. Moss,Shirley Ceaser,Marvin Sap, Canton Spirituals, Lucinda Moore, Smokie Norful, Desmond

My mother went into an encephalitis induced coma a couple of years ago. Yolanda Adams' Battle Is The Lord's" became a source of daily encouragement as I took care of her. Her song Victory became a pronouncment of celebration once my mother fully recovered. My brother was diagnosed with throat cancer after being in an auto accident which crippled him. My mother shortly aftwerward suffered a massive stroke which left her with rightside paralysis and speech aphasia. I took leave from teaching and aministrative duties to take care of them. Smokie Norful's "I Understand" touches me because of this.
Other songs I love are Israel's" Taste And See", John P. Kee' " Stand" and Tye Tribbet' "VICTORY", Andrae Crouch' "Through It All" Yolanda Adams' "I'm Gonna Be Ready"and "People Get Ready"especially the new version by Alicia Keys and Lyfe Jenniengs.
Gospel music is simply the best!.....as Israel Houghton and New Breed might say; Listen(TASTE) and See
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 30 (view)
 
High Stamina or Retarded Ejaculation?
Posted: 12/4/2008 12:05:55 PM
This is terrific! But now I'm beginning to get a bit worried. Our relations could last anywhere close to an hour, or longer and still he has not ejaculated. At times he becomes fustrated, and I try to tell him that the more he dwells upon this, the less he will reach an orgasm.
Sounds like you have mutual frustration for no real reason beyond the desire to appease the other. If you both are pleased...enjoy the lovmaking sessions why even "worry" or get "frustrated" by the fact that it takes awhile longer to reach orgasm/ejaculation. Enjoy the lovemaking....every kiss, stroke, caress, thrust, gaze,lick,. suck, touch, moan, groan, utterance......enjoy the sharing of soulful spirits. No tricks to it actually....just relax and enjoy!

It is likely not a medical issue, I myself am similar(hence username) in that it takes me on average 40-90 min to have an orgasm. This is never a problem for me outside of the fact that most women are use to men getting off in 5 -10 min and when it doesnt happen dispite prior discussions on topic. Many times women are so use to the 5 min orgasm that after she's had a few orgasms she begins to TRY to get me off. Often times its because those women unwittingly equate the male orgasm to their own sexiness/ability, which is NOT the case. When this occurs I find that my size then becomes even more of an issue and what was wonderful and would have continued to be becomes a QUEST....the quest to get me off which takes focus away from the reason we are there. We are there to SHARE, to enjoy, to COMMUNICATE through the most intimate touches not to meet a "challenge" to meet some standard based upon ego/insecurity. Its when it becomes a quest that the lubrication dwindles even more rapidly, the size particularly thickness of 7" circumference begins to turn from means in which to pleasurably touch and stimulate nerves often not explored fully to press/aggitate those same nerves and pain necessitates a stop to what was a wonderful, passionate,loving,giving lovemaking session. It doesnt have to be an issue but certainly it is a reason I feel free to be open about discussing it. Better to be forewarned.
The direct answer to the OP's post and thread's question is its neither high stamina nor retarded ejaculation. It just is the way some of us are wired. It could be based on some psychological issues or simply physiological makeup. It is not from TRYING to last or having plumbing that doesnt allow for ejaculation. Actually, ejaculation and orgasm are NOT mutually inclusive or synonomous. We're not odd....just different in this aspect of life.

Besides, I say that there are 2 kinds of orgasms...mental/emotional and physical. If you ejoy the mental/emotional connections that come from truely caring about each other and wanting to express that and simply enjoying the experience of BEING that is huge. You can have that type of orgasm EVERY time you are together even without actually having intercourse. It will ONLY ACCENTUATE the ability of BOTH parties to have physical orgasms as well. In other words.....make love to the MIND/SOUL/Spirit and the body will ENJOY and happily follow. From your post, you havent gotten there yet. The connection may be or seem great but its not what it should or could be. Work on it and the rest will follow.

Again, my advice is to simply enjoy the experience. If YOU are not bothered and ENJOY the length of time of your lovemaking, HE will have not reason to become frustrated. Surely you will enjoy the prolonged sessions and it will end in mutually satisfying albiet wonderfully pleasurably exhausting orgasms for both of you.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 53 (view)
 
Being the other woman
Posted: 12/3/2008 2:00:59 PM

womens health did a poll and 90% of you said you wouldnt be but 43% have been, its in your nature
Guess what, its simply illogical to conclude that its in the "nature" of women to be adulteresses/mistresses becuase a large MINORITY of those polled have been.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 44 (view)
 
Being the other woman
Posted: 12/2/2008 3:02:56 PM

But what do you do when you didn't know in the beginning what he was getting you into and then you find yourself unable to stop?
What do you do when you find that you are not really in love with him, but rather how you feel about yourself when being with him?
You realize that the same dishonesty of getting you into something else than stated...ie lying,misrepresenting the truth...ALWAYS remains a reacurring theme of misrepresentation/lies. You then realize that there is a level of selfishness that makes you think of yourself over others. you then realize that there is a level of insecurity and pain than has you to remain. What do you do? Cut and run! You'll feel much better about yourself in the end.


I am looking around for someone of my own and maybe if I find someone else I will be able to let go.
Denial and delusion are not good perspectives to allow to overide common sense. Sadly but true, most men that bring ethics,fun,principles and passion to the table arent interesting in getting involved with someone who is already involved ....let alone involved with someone who is someone else's sidepiece/mistress. Generally, those who are interested in someone elses plaything, dispite what they may say; only offer more dysfunction....even if not the exact same type, dysfunction nonetheless. My best suggestion is that you get out of that dysfunctional situation....ASAP. That would be the 1st step towards getting what you really want and not what you settle for or falls into your lap.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 90 (view)
 
So , Are we Racist ?
Posted: 11/26/2008 12:15:36 PM

Most people are racist/quote] That would be based upon your unbiased opinion from meeting everyone? There are several degrees of racism. There is benigin racism and malignant racism. All racism is based upon ignorance. Malignant racism adds levels of negativity and evil to the ignorance. Ignorance in the wake of information and truth...the adherance of ignorance dispite contradicing truth is simply stupidty.


The most racist are the non whites. Think about it. They tend to marry and associate with their own race. If whits do it it is called racist but if they do it it is called multicultualism or something nice.
That is an example if absurd ignorance. Interesting......there is a statement "think about it"....yet the poster failed to do just that....if the poster had he'd have found out the definition of multiculturalism and would perhaps understand that it has nothing to do with marrying within a "race" or ethinic group. Within a multi ethnic environment "non whites" do NOT marry at a greater rate within their group. There is simply no logic nor truth in the post. It is an example of malignant racism. Ignorance that has lended itself to negativity(falsehoods) Good job of proving the news article to be accurate.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 84 (view)
 
So , Are we Racist ?
Posted: 11/25/2008 5:45:04 PM
So, are we racist ?
According to the newspaper's poll and most posts on this thread.....YES, most Aussies are racists.t
o any particular race ?
Again, according to the same sources....Austrailian Aboriginals and Africans(muslims are a religious group). Now, I must say, many Austrialian women have contacted me all the way in the USA wanting to get to know me.....and fantasize about my BBC. Seems size matters to many Aussie women whether they'd publicly admit it or not and colour contrast seems to big a huge appeal also.


is interracial marriages “wrong”?
I actually dont ascribe to the antiquated and discredited notion of racial classification most commonly used. Regardless, the whole notion of marriages between humans being "wrong" based upon a disproven 17th century theory which classified humans according to what it reported as "races" is just plain stupid. What is wrong; is anyone foolish enough to be so stupid as to believe that people shouldnt marry due to the existence of human variation. As long as there have been humans and marriages there have been marriages among various people of every aspect of the various human morphological forms. Its stupid to be racist. Stupid is beyond mere ignorance.Cultures sticking to "old ways" is only destablilizing if part of those old ways cling to RACISM. Its the racsits that are most destabolizing to a nation.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 93 (view)
 
a gay christian
Posted: 11/25/2008 1:37:35 PM
As a Christian believes we are made in God's own image, as part of His great plan- then to discriminate against the person that God made, is to tell God he got it wrong.
Is there logic in that quote?
Clearly man can be created in God's image but the image has nothing to do with the actions. Mankind has free will. People who practice or experiment with bestiology or necrophillia are working from the same or similar "reasoning" as many homosexuals....claiming they were born that way. They too claim that nobody would choose the lifestyle otherwise. Fact is that people make mistakes in judgement for various reasons. Can't blame it on God, or certainly its foolish to do so. I suppose there are prostitutes, porn "actors/actresses",cheating spouses, murderers, rapists, and more who claim to be christians....or buddists...or muslim...or many teachings that teach against ssome of their actions. Therefore gay christian is as hypocritical and counter teaching as war hawking christian, greedy christian, adulturist christian, racisit christian,cigarette smoking christian, alcholic christian or even gossiping christian. None should be condoned but rather prayed for and thaught better
Why has this become a thread for preaching? Hypocritical that she who posed the question does nothing more than "preach".... off topic at that!
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 65 (view)
 
It's over Obama has won
Posted: 11/7/2008 3:30:45 PM

I've got no problem with Obama being president, he's a fairly intelligent guy, but he's horribly underqualified (most underqualified candidate for President in my lifetime)
Everything is relative. Being fairly intelligent is one of those things. He appears MUCH MUCH more intelligent than the current president (GWB) and a bit more intelligent than Bill Clinton or certainly his equal at least.Being "underqualified" is simply false and misleading at the same time. His national or Washington experience is GREATER than that of the last 2 presidents Bush and Clinton who were merely govenors. Therefore the qualification factor depends on wether having experience working with and on national legislative issues is more, less or equal to that of local or state so called "executive" figure head experience. I say they equal peach in one hand and plum in the other. The "horribly underqualified" award goes to George W. Bush whose example of being underqualified is the mess of the 2 terms in which he served.....or wrecked.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 64 (view)
 
It's over Obama has won
Posted: 11/7/2008 3:02:58 PM

i would have been happier with a woman President
WHY??? From that statement it would seem that to you a woman....any woman would do...clearly any woman would NOT make a good president(although almost any person of any gender could do little worse than Dubya). Sexism works both ways. I for one am very relieved that Sarah Palin will not be the Vice president of the USA. Her competence does not compare to that of so many other women who are better suited and quailfied as VP or future president. Frankly, Palin was a poor and desperate choice for running mate.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 30 (view)
 
It's over Obama has won
Posted: 11/5/2008 6:05:27 AM

I find it funny how people were so forgiving of his aquaintances...That is what scares me the most...who will be in the cabinet? A white man would never get away that easy with having the same kind of questionable friends and aquaintances as Barak did. .....actually its a pretty scarey thing to me....The things that scare me the most things I have heard
One thing that seems clear about this election is that many Americans have grown up and out of the politics of fear and ignorance that has shackled social progress and hijacked intellectual thought and discussion for a very long time. The old guard who cling to fear and ignorance reflected in that quote are now officially the minority. The implied whine of reverse racism is based upon and fueled by the same ignorance that spawns racism. Look at Bush and his cabinet. In fact go back and look at the last 5 presidents and their "questionable" aquaintances before repeating waste heard on "talk"shows by shock jocks and others who dont seem to feel that the truth should ever get in the way of a good smear. As to the scary and fear factors.....the TRUTH should set you free, be intelligent enough to seek out the truth.

I am energized by this landmark in American history. I look forward to the rebuilding of America. I look forward to a cabinet that hopefully includes Colin Powell, Richard Lugar, Warren Buffet, Dr Jawanza Kunjufu, David Aguilar, Randall Robinson, Henry Louis Gates Jr , Dr. Joseph Mercola and Oprah Winfry to name a few. I think he'll keep General Patreaus where he is but mandating a more speedy transition of power to the Iraqi government and thus US troop withdrawl.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 24 (view)
 
SACRED SEXUALITY
Posted: 10/17/2008 1:04:02 AM
To some extent my version of sacred sexuality is contained in my Musings Over Love and Sex;

I've found that OPEN and HONEST communication from the word "hello" sustained beyond" go", combined with the establishment of multileveled, multidimensional(intellectual/spiiritual/physical/emotional) connections with ethics, long before sex, is likely to take people to a place that is.... more than sex. There you'll find a love that is a way of life;
Beyond sexual pleasure to spiritual awakening;
Beyond technique to sexual MASTERY...
Beyond sexual performance to trust, surrender, LETTING GO;

REAL Freedom!
Beyond simple relationship to total intimacy and deep mutual interconnected multi demensional loving
Beyond mere"body-friction" to positive sexual energy transference...
Beyond serious and self-conscious to outer body and inner body exploration and revelation...
Beyond ego to your true self, your HIGHER self...
Beyond fear to exhileration...
Beyond lovers to supernatural...
Beyond tension release to passion espansion...
Beyond boredom to excitement, mystery, surprise...
Beyond sexual abuse to sexual healing...
to erotic Kung Fu...
Clitoral orgasms and beyond to G-spot orgasms, to whole body orgasms, to ecstasy to erotic kung fu...
Beyond living in the past or future to living fully in the now; in hi fi HD stereo in 3D ...
Beyond shame to celebration...

Beyond falling in love to creating love to expanding love...
Beyond desire to satisfaction...
Beyond talk and words to telepathy, action, knowing...
Beyond thought to intuition...
Beyond loneliness to supernatural connection...
Beyond separation to unity of body, mind, heart and soul...

Cost of a ticket is the hard work of introsepction and self analysis with the establishment and strict adherence to a deffinative ethical code. It strips the soul of baggage so that the rest of the journey is FREE....Fun, Excitement, Exhileration, Enlightenment gauranteed.

If you wish to have a ticket or just understand the custom and language of this far too rarely visited land.....holla at this man

 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 55 (view)
 
Rev. Jeremiah Wright in Sex Scandal
Posted: 10/17/2008 12:09:56 AM
I think we know that the rev was implying that evil whitey controls America and keeps blackey down . Isn't that cause for some racial revenge?
No we don't...what is apparent is that your statements and "rationale" are more reflective of a racist theology than any of those of Rev Wrights.
Qoute what you think Rev. Wright said that was racist. Otherwise, why not stopthe misinformation/lies.
As to Rev. Wright's 911 "Chickens come to roost" statement....it was echoed by John Hagee, Rod Parsley, Pat Robertson and Jerry Farewell just different terminology or metaphor. All placed some blame on the "evils" of America and even God's judgement.

Of them, Hagee has been proven to have commited adultry as a pastor.

Opinions abound but some are based upon ignroance. The suggestion that "racisim is when a group sets itself apart from another group" as being a definition of racist behavior in of itself then would make many christian groups and organizations not to mention the forementioned TV evangelist racists. Basically there are 2 forms of racist....malignant and benign. A racist believes in the 17th century biased eurocentric psuedo scientific system of racial classification to be fact. The belief itself is benign. The assignment of inherent negativity or superiority to all members of a "race" is malignant racism.

As for Elizabeth Payne...why would a woman go to a newspaper and announce that she commited adultry and was divorced and fired because of it? Why? Bragging rights? Whats more, her former husband in telling why he went ahead and divorced her, is quoted as saying "People wouldn’t be happy to know that my wife was sleeping with a black man.” He added, “Rev. Haynes doesn’t like the interracial thing, either. This was quite an issue for him.”
Perhaps now at least some of those who claimed Rev Wright was about hate would reconsider I mean the much older rev Wright was allegedly giving out some Sexual Healing ...maybe he should be called the Rev. luvin Wright At least according to 37yo(attractive might I add) Liz Payne

Come on now....sadly, this IF TRUE, would simply be a case of people of the pulpit having conduct unfitting of leadership and therefore should step down. As I understand it, Jeremiah Wright(no longer should be called "rev" if scandle is true) has stepped down.His own "chickens have come to roost". Now its time for him to get himself right with God...and his family.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 16 (view)
 
When to get personal with your date..
Posted: 10/16/2008 10:43:29 AM
Keep it light forever and never bring it up until you can't avoid bringing it up in the context of what you two are experiencing.
Thats just awfully dysfunctional advice. Be careful of people who give advice that comes from their own PAIN and inablity to work beyond it in a constructive and healthy manner.

You bring up hurtful past and ask about their past once you truely have real confidence and trust in the other person. I believe you'll get more if you invest more providing you invest wisely. You should only do this AFTER, you've invested in yourself enough to deal with issues that may cause you dysfunction. Once you are healthy and sound, you can more effectively build a sound, healthy, loving relationship and a cornerstone of that type of relationship is mutual open and honest communication. Thus, wait until you are sure that you've established a REAL mutual trust and interest in a lifetime relationship, be it as platonic friends or lifemate.
May you seek the wisdom and guidence of God's spirit in your journey.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 13 (view)
 
Sex, Politics, Religion and Dating....
Posted: 10/16/2008 6:30:08 AM

So, if you are looking to date, and realize that these issues are major hurdles in todays world, and all are held at a very personally intimate level for each of us, why are so many people today unwilling to discuss them?
Ignorance People who will not discuss any and everything that concerns the human condition and affects even a limited aspect of life are ignorant of the importance of open and honest communication and/OR are so jaded by bad experiences with people who took those conversations to a point of negativity, that they are ignorant of the importance of getting over their bad experiences and moving forward as being central to their own psychological/emotional health. Intelligent, healthy, grown ups who know how to build healthy relationships will discuss any and all aspects of life openly and honestly early in a relationship if not even from "Hello". Having a discomfort for discussing a sex, politics and religion/spirituality (or for that matter all other aspects of life) and the unwillingness to brake past that discomfort is a signal of somone who is not ready for a healthy relationship in which there is mutual respect, trust, desire for growth and mutual interest.
 marathonman11x7
Joined: 4/29/2005
Msg: 100 (view)
 
I Predict That This Will Happen If He Becomes President.......
Posted: 10/15/2008 5:14:22 PM

If Obama wins (and I hope so):
America's history of racism be vanquished, as it will no longer exist.
That was a joke ....right? Just in case it wasnt....dont fool yourself. Whenever someone makes astonishingly ridiculous statements like that I wonder why they NEVER even attempt support them with their reasons for believing such nonesense. Besides, you cannot vanquish history! Supress it and/OR distort it yes, but vanquish? History is history. Just like you cant change the fact that you made that statement. Also, it would be foolish to believe that senator Obama winning the presidency would change all or even most racists from continuing to be racist. That requires a will on the part of the racists to increase and enhance their intellectual scope and perspective. Then again, those who follow a candidate like Obama as if he were the 2nd comming arent utilizing their own intellectual abilities much.
To your question, if senator Obama wins...I expect more political and personal attacks attempted on him than on any president in history. I expect some deomcrats in congrass to try to manipilate him. I expect the best and most sound foreign policy in American history but one the hawks and good ol boys will cry and whine about. I'd expect the US to FINALLY find a real and viable exit strategy from Iraq thus saving tax payers trillions of dollars.I expect to see more respect given to the US on the part of most nations. I expect the tough road of economic recovery to take about 3 years. I expect many of the same domestic policies as was present during the Clinton administration. I expect more people getting involved in building a better USA.


If senator Mccain wins, I expect more and more Americans to become more disenchanted with the USA and politics. I'd expect more apathy in successive elections due to most wondering..."why" "whats the point". Id expect to see increases in foriegn battles. I'd expect Isreal to bomb Iran under US support and Iran, Russia,Syria,North Korea and possibly more nations to back an Iranian response. All this with US troops spread very thinly and an already bad economy suffering more to foot the bill.A noted hothead(the old guy has had flare ups in which he cursed at others that disagreed) I'd expect more foolish rhetoric from a US president since.....well...Dubya! Perhaps a war or skirmishes with Iran and North Korea. I'd expect an economic collapse led by a president who has stated that he knows little about the economy and who thus far has been nothing more than a follower as it relates to comming up with a plan to fix US economic woes. I'd expect the very same fools who voted for GW both times to say things like ""would have been worse" "I didnt think" I didnt know"'its the deomocrats fault" "it was God's plan....the election had nothing to do with it/ its pr0phecy" to explain their choice to lead America into further decay.Roe V Wade still will not be overturned, gay marriages will still be up to the states,abortions will still be committed at the same or greater rate...but CEOs will still have as many homes as Mccain while millions of Americans continue to lose the 1 they have(Mccain wants to make Americans bail out banks by making subsidies for buying back forclosed homes at full price). With a Mccain presidency the rich get richer the middle class becomes poor, the poor ....SOL.

Quite simply, OP, I believe that Obama, if elected, will reveal that he is a follower of the Black Liberation theology. In other words, his agenda will be closer to Hugo Chavez or Fidel Castro, than what so many garden variety liberals "hope" for. I think that he will follow a "one world" strategy in defense.
Right....and he will reveal himself as a muslim terrorist who will let all Al Queda combatants into the country at night, then he'll give the same package given to Wall street to all AfricanAmericans...then he'll transform himself into the Anti christ.....Oh, my bad...the role of Anti christ is taken by George Bush jr.
"the Black Liberation theology"??HUH?
 
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