REGISTER
|
MAIL/PROFILE
|
HELP
|
NOW ONLINE
|
SEARCH
|
RATING
| FORUMS |
SUCCESS STORIES
Posted In Forum:
All Forums
Alabama
Alaska
Alberta
Arizona
Arkansas
Art/Music
Ask A Girl
Ask A Guy
Australia
British Columbia
Broken Hearts
California
Colorado
Connecticut
Dating & Love Advice
Dating Experiences
Dating Sites
Delaware
District Of Columbia
Event Hosts forum
Florida
Georgia
Hawaii
Health & Fitness
Humor
Idaho
Illinois
Indiana
Introductions
Iowa
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisiana
Maine
Manitoba
Maryland
Massachusetts
Michigan
Minnesota
Mississippi
Missouri
Montana
Nebraska
Nevada
New Brunswick
New Hampshire
New Jersey
New Mexico
New York
Newfoundland
News/Current Events
North Carolina
North Dakota
Nova Scotia
Off Topic
Ohio
Oklahoma
Ontario
Oregon
Over 30
Over 45
Pennsylvania
Plentyoffish Get Togethers
Plentyoffish Site/Suggestions/Help
Poems And Quotes
Politics
Prince Edward Island
Profile Reviews
Quebec
Recipes & Cooking
Relationships
Religion/Supernatural
Rhode Island
Saskatchewan
Science/Philosophy
Sex and Dating
Single Parents
South Carolina
South Dakota
Sports
Stories/creative writing
Technology and computers
Tennessee
Testimonials
Texas
Uk Forums
Utah
Vermont
Virginia
Volunteer Moderators Only
Washington
West Virginia
Wisconsin
Wyoming
Home
login
MyForums
Show ALL Forums
Author
Thread: The double slit experiment (the elephant in the room).
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
87 (
view
)
The double slit experiment (the elephant in the room).
Posted:
11/23/2009 6:12:35 PM
RE Msg: 80 by stargazer1000:
Quick question...any actual quantum theorists here? Just thought I'd ask.
I'm just the annoying person in the room, who says "Who says it has to be so?" "Why can't we think of it an entirely different way?" Drives lots of people up the wall.
Most people working in the field do the same thing. The only difference, however, is that they try to develop some kind of conclusion, instead of simply saying "well, we can't 'know' so we can't have any conclusions about it."
One is constructive. The other is pointless.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
80 (
view
)
The double slit experiment (the elephant in the room).
Posted:
11/22/2009 5:36:11 PM
Quick question...any
actual
quantum theorists here? Just thought I'd ask.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
601 (
view
)
New Swine Flu vaccine is dangerous business
Posted:
11/22/2009 4:23:25 PM
Well, I got my shot and I'm just....ack....ACK!! Ggaaaarrrrrgghhh!!!
Not really. Just a sore arm and everything's fine. And yes, I do put my money where my mouth is.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
231 (
view
)
Crop Circles, what is behind this mystery ?
Posted:
11/21/2009 4:42:02 PM
Ok- fair enough. I say let's move on to all those damn lights in the sky.
Stars. Satellites. Airplanes. Planets. Meteors. Any number of things that can be mistaken or "mistaken" for extraterrestrial visitors.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
541 (
view
)
the earth is growing
Posted:
11/20/2009 4:19:11 PM
If that is the interpretation, clearly someone doesn't understand what "mass" really means.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
59 (
view
)
Mars or the moon?
Posted:
11/20/2009 12:47:24 PM
hospitol records as well as the increase in crime during those times as well....
Citation?
To at least see if there is something that could explain the coisidence.
You're assuming it's even demonstrably true to begin with. But not without actual proof.
maybe it isn't a material on the moon and instead is a specrum of light due to the reflection against the full moon.
Well, first of all, the primary 'material' of the moon is volcanic basalt. If you're afraid of that, stay away from the Northern Shield or anywhere near volcanic flow regions. Also, all light has a 'spectrum.' And, since it's reflected sunlight anyway, daytime should send people around the bend.
he moons glow is basically reflected and filtered sun rays. could have some effect on our eyes that account for the results.
Like what? Again, assuming your original premise is correct.
It is a force powerful enough to control ocean tides.
It's called gravity.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
42 (
view
)
The double slit experiment (the elephant in the room).
Posted:
11/20/2009 11:38:15 AM
You seem to be missing this by an even bigger margin...Ok lets concentrate on one thing.
What is the single photon interfering with?
Dont forget that a single photon fired through the slit should just make a dot on the back wall, it cannot interfere with itself. The way an interference pattern happens is if TWO photons come together they create a peak, where they don't is a dark patch. You have to have 2 photons to create an interference pattern...it cannot do it by itself.
No, I have as good an understanding of the subject as any other interested amateur has. But there is a saying in the QT biz...if you think you understand quantum physics, you're not trying hard enough.
The single photon as a particle isn't interfering with anything. It's wave function, however, is interfering with itself. It's essentially passing through both detectors at once, and it's probability wave collapsing to a single photon once it reaches the detector.
Again, this is observed science. As much as scorpio will like to say "you're only making an assumption based on what you've been told, you poor deluded fool," it is the basis of a considerable amount of contemporary science. Now, is that the end of the story? Absolutely not. There's a lot more to it than that which is why we pay physicists to do that thing they do.
Oh, for scorpy's benefit, here's a reference to the double-slit experiment using electrons by Dr. Akira Tonomura. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Double-slit_experiment_results_Tanamura_2.jpg
As for the idea of viewing quasars or any other object contemporaneously, again, I would disagree on the fact that we are observing a large scale object using large scale instruments, telescopes and the like. Were you to try to trace the history of a single photon, you might have something there.
But hey, if someone can figure out how to build a "quantum tunneling" telescope, there's quite a few stars I'd like to be able to observe to see if they even exist anymore or not. Stars like Eta Carinae, Alpha Orionis of Omicron Cassiopeia...all of which are hypergiants that likely no longer do exist. We just haven't received the 'signal' that they've gone boom!
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
56 (
view
)
Mars or the moon?
Posted:
11/20/2009 11:19:44 AM
Surley there must be some reason why a FULL moon has a noticable effect on how we act during them.
You're assuming the moon actually
does
have an effect, beyond the usual sources.
If you have any actual statistical evidence that the moon has any more effect than first quarter or last quarter or even New Moon, then it's a discussion. Otherwise, it's just an old wive's tale.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
30 (
view
)
The double slit experiment (the elephant in the room).
Posted:
11/20/2009 6:47:04 AM
Andyaa, you're missing the point by a wide margin.
The double-slit experiment using one photon at a time has been done and the result was, over a recorded period of time, the result was to show the same interference pattern as you do with a steady beam of light. Again, this has been observed.
No, but I read books, as do you, which is where we get our facts from
I'm not talking about books. I'm talking about other evidence of the "past" without us. In other words, the universe didn't need us to exist in order for IT to exist. Hence my 3c 273 example.
We view the quasar contemporaneously like we do the interference pattern
No we don't. The quasar is over 2 billion light years away. In other words, we are experience now a galaxy's active nucleus as it was 2 billion years ago.
This is what makes the "observer effect" a misnomer and why it is more appropriate to refer to it as "interaction."
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
26 (
view
)
The double slit experiment (the elephant in the room).
Posted:
11/20/2009 6:22:56 AM
Yes you are missing something...How can 1 photon show an interference pattern if there is only 1 photon…1 wave or 1 particle.
Indeed. But if the experiment is allowed to run with one particle at a time, it shows an interference pattern. This is not new.
And observing things in their natural flow doesn't really alter how things work.
Apparently they do, evidence for the last 80 years or so has shown this, many theories to explain the evidence have been presented.
Ah, interesting statement since I'm guessing you haven't been around all those 80 years to observe that evidence. This is my point about interaction and why quantum physicists cringe at the use of the "observer effect" since it leads to suggestions of mysticism.
The fact that we can observe evidence from "before" means that observation by us now is not important for existence to, well, exist. For instance, we don't observe quasar 3c 273 contemporaneously but as it was 2 billion years ago when Earth was home only to single-celled critters.
How do you know this? People ask if a tree falls over and no one is there see it fall, does it make a sound...well evidence shows (metaphorically speaking) that if there is no one there, there is no tree. The photon is a wave until we view it, then it is a particle.
So, until we observe the tree, it doesn't exist? And what makes us so special over the tree?
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
39 (
view
)
Extra Terrestrial Life
Posted:
11/20/2009 6:14:25 AM
If you are on the moon are you not and extra terrestrial by definition? We have been so it's not so hard for me to believe. Earthings were ET's
Actually, we were "extra-selennial."
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
24 (
view
)
The double slit experiment (the elephant in the room).
Posted:
11/20/2009 6:00:20 AM
Am I missing something. Are we really discussing anything new here? When it comes to the double slit experiment, then whether you use a steady stream of photons or a single photon at a time, you are going to get the same interference pattern in your detector. That is nothing new, it's been demonstrated numerous times. The point of the experiment is to demonstrate particle/wave duality of photons.
It is a mistake, however, to start ascribing mystical qualities to the act of observation. Rather than observation, it would be more accurate to speak in terms of interaction. If a tree lives in the forest, for instance, it's going to get the same benefit from photons of sunlight whether we're there to observe or not, for instance.
But I'm afraid bright that your thought experiment doesn't work because a water-filled room and your paintball gun examples are the wrong scale.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
4 (
view
)
Is the pollution debate centering around carbon dioxide as a bait and switch?
Posted:
11/20/2009 5:49:07 AM
Actually, many of the other chemical pollutants produced by industry have been reduced and regulated against already. Remember CFCs? However - and it has been argued ad nauseum (I know ahoytheredave is going to jump on this point) - CO2 is considered a major contributor to greenhouse warming, so that places it higher on the rung of importance.
I would argue again that the CO2 debate is, at this point, well not moot but certainly not the most important discussion. It's energy useage. The need to get away from oil, for the mere simple fact that it is a finite resource. Start developing alternate energy economies simply because it will reduce the social and economic impacts when the oil finally does run out to have something else in its place.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
21 (
view
)
1=1 Is it a fact a theory or both?
Posted:
11/18/2009 8:02:52 PM
Okay...seriously? We're debating whether 1 actually is 1? As opposed to what?
Is common sense truly dead?
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
37 (
view
)
Splash ! The moon has water !
Posted:
11/18/2009 7:24:27 PM
Every person on this planet better believe they found water there or else.
Or else...what?
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
17 (
view
)
1=1 Is it a fact a theory or both?
Posted:
11/18/2009 7:23:07 PM
Tell you what. Here's an experiment. Go to your local coffee shop. Take only one dollar. Then order something for $2. How smoothly does the exchange go? Do you walk out with the item?
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
591 (
view
)
New Swine Flu vaccine is dangerous business
Posted:
11/18/2009 7:18:34 PM
Just to be on the safe side, you might want to also eat your veggies and say your prayers. Lots of faith here in those two methods for health care. Hey, you can't prove it doesn't work. I know for a fact it works against dinosaur attacks. I tried eating veggies and saying prayers for a week and wasn't attacked by a single dinosaur.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
26 (
view
)
Extra Terrestrial Life
Posted:
11/18/2009 7:10:36 PM
I believe any conclusion we must base on the existance of alien life must be based on our actual observations of the universe. And everywhere we look in the universe, we see it is outright hostile to all forms of life.
By who's standard? And by what do you define "all forms of life?" This, as far as I can tell, is reflective only of your opinion and bears little resemblance to the actual scientific thinking of where life can, in fact, develop.
We are not talking about the environment around the core of galaxy, or in the vicinity of a quasar...we are talking about likely abodes. Planets or moons. Astronomers are discovering multiple planets around approximately 50 per cent of the stars they observe. It really is a numbers game.
Why? There have been Billions upon Billions of speices, and only a dozen or so reached a level of intelligence that can be considered human-like. You claim its arrogant to think the universe doesn't have another intelligent life- I say its arrogant to look at the vast and varied history of life on our planet, with billions of lifeforms having existed, thrived, then gone extinct, and to conclude the universe must have lifeforms that act and think identical to the kind of life you see in your lifetime.
Even if there is life in the universe, why -must- there be other intelligent life? Clearly intelligent life is the minority, and evolution does not exist to gear life towards intelligent life.
So, in the history of our planet, you note that several species have attained some level of intelligence and yet you go on to argue against the development of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. A tad contradictory.
These are all made up numbers, though. If you want serious debate, you must be willing to use actual observations, not "wouldn't it be nice if" scenerios
Also, I'm pretty sure the chances of intelligent life would be more like 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000001% or even worse odds.
Interesting. Well, this irony of this statement has already been pointed out.
Saying wheres theres water theres life is like saying that where theres wood, theres fire. And thats simply not the case.
Water is a known solvent for all the chemicals known to be necessary for life. So that simply is not an argument that holds...well...water. And the chemical precursors to biological life are found almost everywhere in the universe.
Mars has no Magnetic Sphere, and Europa is far too close to Jupiter, and thus both planets experience waves of radiation slaming against it- it would be an absolute mircle for life to survive in such a place.
Yet, Europa is covered in miles of ice and water and Mars has observed subterranean environments...caves of which the openings have been observed from orbit. And both present protection from radiation.
>>>If intelligent life could evolve here, it's impossible that it couldn't have happened else where.
So then are there mermaids?
Cute. But it's also sophistry. It's a little like Kirk Cameron's argument of the crocoduck. Probability is that the most common life in the universe will be simple, single celled or similar.
Math doesn't make fact- esspecially when you're making up the numbers.
Math doesn't make fact, it simply speaks to probability. You can argue the semantics all you like. We can only speak to the general probabilities of life. Not to the specifics of an individual species "out there."
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
3 (
view
)
Doubleverse
Posted:
11/17/2009 8:21:30 PM
Of course, part of the question is whether or not information is actually "lost" or just "sequestered" below the black hole's event horizon. In which case, it's not really a problem with the second law of thermodynamics.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
14 (
view
)
Extra Terrestrial Life
Posted:
11/17/2009 8:16:29 PM
Keeping in mind Twinki that we're really talking about a relatively small sampling still. And many of the exo-planet detections are a result of a bias within the system used to detect them. Specifically, hot Jupiters were the easiest to catch. With the monitoring that was done, a find such as Gliese 581C was at least reasonably probable. It will be interesting to see what happens when Kepler is done it's primary mission in 3 years.
However, I agree. The numbers are a bit optimistic. But then, Carl Sagan was actually quite optimistic in his own way. So is Frank Drake. In one interview, he estimated about 20,000 intelligent and technologically capable species within our own galaxy.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
64 (
view
)
Speed of light.......... just something about it.....
Posted:
11/17/2009 8:06:20 PM
I never suggested that he should ask CERN to put my idea forwards for testing at the LHC, or testing at FermiLab. I could do that myself with better success than he could. I'm just discussing ideas on a forum. I'd just like to stop feeling like when it comes to science, religion, politics, and economics, and just about everything that ever was mentioned, that anything I say that even suggests possible disagreement with your opinion is automatically wrong, because I have dealt with extreme fundamentalists before, and you talk exactly the same ways they do, only more, because even when it comes to science, they're usually a lot more informed when they tell me that I'm wrong, to at least provide clear evidence.
Wait...was that partly directed at me? Am I a science
fundamentalist
too? That's
HILARIOUS!
And not just a wee bit ironic. The theist accusing the agnostic of fundamentalism.
It's not that you disagree on a philosophical basis. It's just that your facts are wrong. The things you say are undetermined are, in fact, observed. Your approach is to simply deny the science. To say "we need to 'know' more before we can come to any definitive conclusion."
I've said it before, your approach is counterproductive. Science works as a stepped process. One step, one discovery, leads to the next step and the next discovery. If the conclusions are wrong, then that particular line of investigation halts and a new one begins.
Science is a self-correcting system. You may be a fine theist, scorp. You'd make a lousy scientist.
Edit: And yes. You are discussing ideas on a forum. So don't be overly sensitive if people
disagree
with you.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
11 (
view
)
Extra Terrestrial Life
Posted:
11/17/2009 7:09:01 PM
I believe absolutely that there is life out there. Of course, the most common is going to be simple life...some analogue to our single-celled organisms. And, of course, if there can be single-celled life, then it makes sense that complex multi-cellular life will evolve.
Finally, if complex multi-cellular life can evolve, certainly intelligent life can't be impossible.
However, we are limited in that we can only contemplate life from our own experience. Not even those who contemplate life on other worlds agree on what forms that might take.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
33 (
view
)
Splash ! The moon has water !
Posted:
11/17/2009 6:52:58 PM
Let me just reiterate, the suspicion of water on the moon has been around for years. Indeed, several orbiters have detected dissociated hydrogen atoms as they've passed low overhead of the poles. And the moon experiences impacts every single day. Usually, they're small objects...bits of rock the size of your fist, bits of dust, etc.
It's also important to understand that there's unbelieveable amounts of water throughout the solar system...including the asteroids and comets. So it should be no surprise that there is water at the poles of the moon. We are also talking about very special areas of the moon. The poles experience low sun angles (versus direct-on sunlight at the equator) and there are craters that experience permanent darkness. So it's far more conducive to allowing the preservation of water in the lunar regolith.
However, impacts such as LCROSS (and there have been several others...just not any with so much "attention) allow an opportunity to physically "sample" the moon, in a way. Most observations are passive, surface-level observations. Impactors allow scientists to "deconstruct" a bit of the moon (a very, VERY small bit) and see what's inside.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
586 (
view
)
New Swine Flu vaccine is dangerous business
Posted:
11/17/2009 6:00:59 PM
"PANDEMIC"..."STATE OF EMERGENCY"...blah...blah...blah
over 198 dead people ? .....
Umm....really? Well, I can imagine what they (or their families) might have to say regarding your suggestion. I'm sure it would be a suggestion involving sex and travel.
I wonder how many normally die by mid Nov each year during the regular flu
Probably quite a few. Which is why they have...wait for it...new vaccines EVERY YEAR.
lets ask the 6.6 million in 5 years from now after the flu is gone.
Lets ask those 198 who didn't get the flu vaccine...oh wait. You can't. They're dead.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
584 (
view
)
New Swine Flu vaccine is dangerous business
Posted:
11/17/2009 5:29:14 PM
Interesting:
http://www.healthzone.ca/health/newsfeatures/swineflu/article/726798--h1n1-vaccine-safer-than-seasonal-flu-shot
Couple of interesting numbers...
As of Nov. 7, (in Canada) when
6.6 million doses
had been administered in people across the country, there had been
36
reported severe adverse reactions.
Butler-Jones said there have been at least
198 deaths from H1N1 nationwide so far.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
58 (
view
)
Speed of light.......... just something about it.....
Posted:
11/17/2009 5:14:06 PM
Scorpio, I've come to the conclusion, based on available evidence, that you would make a lousy scientist. Your approach seems to be 'draw no conclusions' as if 'conclusions' are a bad thing. You know what science is? With this approach, science would get nowhere. Conclusions...even wrong ones...are important. The process is self correcting.
<div class="quote">However, I won't deny that I'm getting a bit worried that you're just going to tell me that the speed of light is so, just because it's so, and that I should accept your views, just because you say so, and for no other reason. I wouldn't want to spend my time corresponding with someone who just is demanding that I accept things on blind faith. I don't do that with religion. Why should I do that with science?
The difference between science and religion is that science doesn't expect you to take
anything
on blind faith and I know you've seen me and others point out that science is inherently skeptical. Indeed, science is revised every time. And I have also pointed out that Relativity is up for revision, especially since it stands as mutually exclusive to QT, suggesting an overlying "law(s)" overriding the two. Which is an active area of research.
However, I don't understand your confusion. Time and again, scientists have conducted experiments that have proven the
SPEED
of light. So much of fundamental physics are dependent on this constraint. But accept it or don't. I really don't care. The only one suggesting emotional investment is you.
<div class="quote">I never disagreed that so far in our experiments, that AFAIK, the speed of light seems to be unbreakable for all known masses, and all energy appears to travel at the speed of light, and no other speed. However, that still is "just accept it, because it's so". Maybe it's "just accept it, because that's what our experiments tell us". But it's still "just accept it, because it's so". It's still do what I told you, and don't think. I don't think that's acceptable. Science is about explaining things and how they come to be. If the speed of light is a constant, there has to be a reason. That's scientific.
Um...so do the experiment, get the data, but then doubt the results of the experiment and so draw no conclusions from the experiment you set out to get data from in the first place. Am I missing something?
However, gravity is far more pervasive. Indeed, it cannot travel faster than the speed of light since information in a relativistic universe is restricted to that speed limit. Hence...gravity waves.
I saw you wrote that they did exist, but not that they might exist. That, to me, implies that you think they definitely do exist.
Okay, my bad. Poor choice of words on my part...however, it is a little presumptuous to say "you implied this, so it means that is what you believe." Not quite. I can imply you're a thief, but that won't exactly stand up in a court of law.
Perhaps it would be better to say that current theory holds that information transmission is limited to the speed of light, and that such transmission of information includes gravity. That is the current state of physics. It is the basis for the construction of LIGO (and a proposed space-based version).
Have I done any of the experiments myself? No. But I have read of and heard from those who have. They seem to be pretty smart and know what they're doing. Hardly seem right to impune their competency. However, according to you, the only ones who would be acceptable (and even then, maybe not) would be the actual scientists doing the experiments and only if they can answer all conceivable questions, even those that have had no experiment to answer.
<div class="quote">But if you want to quote the standard experiments that every physicist in the world is taught, then I'll try to get hold of a physicist in London to see if he knows what you are talking about.
Ask the physicists the standard experiments for the speed of light and information transmission. As I've already stated, there is one major experiment underway for gravity waves, and that is LIGO. It has, thus far, produced negative results. Again, not necessarily a failure. Just a constraint of the experiment.
<div class="quote">That's what's quite surprising, because I've known a few physicists, and you seem to be talking the opposite to them, as if you had different teachers to them, and you seem to assume that everything your teachers taught you, was always right, as if science never changes, and that contradicts everything I know about science.
Oh, let's not get into the failure of American education since, first of all, I am NOT American. As for what you "know" about science...no comment at this point. I know science changes. I don't need you to "remind" me of that.
<div class="quote">NO! I tried to counter that it's a perceptual construct based on the fact that the universe perceives based on electromagnetism of which visible light is a part.
You
assume
the universe "perceives." That requires consciousness. That's getting into discussions of "God." Let's not. It's outside the purview of this discussion, unless you've got something definitive.
<div class="quote">
<div class="quote">Now, it is important to acknowledge that, so far, there has been no positive detections of gravity waves from the LIGO detectors. Is that a failure of science?
It's a failure of an experiment.
Good thing Thomas Edison didn't have your attitude.
<div class="quote">But I did say that believing that something was so, just because it was, and not asking why, and not trying to come up with theories for why the speed of light seems to be a constant in the universe, IS blind faith, and so is telling others that they are wrong for even suggesting some hypotheses.
What and why are two separate questions.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
251 (
view
)
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted:
11/17/2009 6:24:19 AM
..it is exhausting explaining all of this
And it's tiresome having to deal with your arrogant dissmissive and generally shitty attitude. Clearly, time for you to grow up.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
50 (
view
)
Selling your soul?
Posted:
11/16/2009 9:17:36 PM
Son, it's alright if you don't understand the complexity of other people's use of the English language. there are people in these threads who don't believe you, I or anyone else has a "soul." You say you have one? Prove it. Preferably, without quotes from "the good book" or senseless Christian Science rhetoric, if you please.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
244 (
view
)
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted:
11/16/2009 9:13:38 PM
We all have heard the expression, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"
Little catch phrases don't do anything to capture the multi-faceted nature of economic issues. There is nothing simple about any of these examples you've offered. There are no quick fixes to anything. No magic pills.
-FDA regulations (Keep harmful drugs off the market, winds up killing more by delaying the approval of life-saving drugs)
As opposed to? Releasing drugs too early? And if as many people die from a drug, or are injured, then was anything improved? Ever hear of thalidomide? Oh, and what about drugs for which the patents run out? There are drugs known to be good for treating disease. However, because there is no profit in them, the drug companies aren't interested in them. So there's problems on both sides.
-Minimum Wage Laws (Makes it next to impossible for our poor, inner-city youngsters to find jobs, earn skills on the job, and advance to higher pay, after government schooling provides them with zero qualifications.)
So companies should be able to pay whatever they want? Because, when it comes to costs, labour is one of a company's highest. Do we really want a workforce being paid pennies? You think there's problems with poverty now, just imagine the consequences of this.
-Tax-exemption for Employer Health insurance (Has made health insurance cover basic medical tasks such as checkups and minor operations. Without consumers spending their own money on these, doctors and hospitals do not worry about competing with prices - and as such there is no force (consumers voting with their dollars) to keep prices down.
There are democratically elected countries in the world where healthcare, while not perfect, sees to the needs of everyone. And people going bankrupt because they can't afford basic health care or, even worse, get sick, is unheard of.
-Frannie May (Bought less-than-prime mortgages from investment banks with the intention of making housing more affordable to low-income families and minorities. Ended up allowing speculators to bid-up prices on houses and gave banks a disincentive to not make risky loans. One of the key elements in creating the housing bubble and subsequent crash.
-Freddie Mac (See above)
I would point out that countries like Canada avoided the danger of toxic assets by making them illegal. So regulation worked. Our economy faltered only because it is tied so intimately in the manufacturing and export markets (including 1/3 of the U.S.'s oil imports) to the U.S. However, that is being resolved now.
-The Federal Reserve (By acting as a central bank, the Federal reserve intends to keep prices stable (no inflation) while maximizing employment. In reality, the Federal Reserve has a long history of leaving interest rates too low, causing bubbles (roaring 20's, tech boom in the late 90's, and housing bubble in the mid 2000's), which causes massive crashes (the Great Depression of the 30's, tech-bubble crash, housing collapse). Some refer to this as the business cycle. I refer to it as the inevitable consequence of when interest rates are set by government, largely for political reasons, rather than by the market.
Bubbles burst because they grow too fast and become unsustainable. The dot-coms were a classic example of rising too fast, on too little, with little or no oversight (as in a deregulated market).
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
20 (
view
)
Plague in the Ukraine
Posted:
11/16/2009 8:39:06 PM
Is freaking out online a fix? Will it save the world to blog plague warnings everywhere? Oh, do let us try. Laughter *is* the best medicine.
Oh, I think it's more insidious than that. Fear generally is a drug and things like pandemic and conspiracy theories, etc. feed that addiction, sick though it is.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
52 (
view
)
Speed of light.......... just something about it.....
Posted:
11/16/2009 8:36:34 PM
So, basically, it's not real science if I mention it, but it is real science if you mention it, right? So if I had mentioned LIGO, and YOU had mentioned the site I brought, you'd argue that the things that you quoted here, LIGO, are NOT "real science", and the stuff that I mentioned, WAS "real science"? Be honest. You read about gravity waves a while ago, what you read made sense to you at the time, and you're convinced that they MUST exist, without proof.
Getting a bit defensive, scorpio?
Okay, did I say that gravity waves
DID
exist? What I was pointing out that the
speed of light
is a fundamental law of physics in relativistic space. Nothing has ever been found to contradict this in any evidential way. And yes, before we start getting into Einstein-Rosen-Podalsky pairs, let's just stop right there since that's QT, not Relativity.
You tried to counter that it's a "perceptual" construct based on the fact that we human beings perceive based on electromagnetism of which visible light is a part. But that wasn't
THE POINT
! The speed of light, I will say again, is fundamental to the universe, like the strong and weak nuclear forces and like the electron. A "maximum" speed limit, if you will.
Now, if you want to talk about gravity, physics is based on the underlying principal that gravity, like light, can only travel so fast
IN RELATIVISTIC SPACETIME
. This is basic physics. We're not talking God, here. And it's on that basis that they've actually
BUILT
a couple of gravity wave observatories.
Now, it is important to acknowledge that, so far, there has been no positive detections of gravity waves from the LIGO detectors. Is that a failure of science? A failure of the theory? No. Especially since this is the last holdout of observable Relativity. Which means that the results of the experiment are simply more constrained.
Now, if you're inclined to start sitting there and saying that the likes of Albert Einstein, Kip Thorn and Stephen Hawking, go right ahead. Have fun. I'll go on the old saying that it is better to be silent and have people think of one as an idiot than to open one's mouth and remove all doubts.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
50 (
view
)
Speed of light.......... just something about it.....
Posted:
11/16/2009 7:53:02 PM
If Stargazer1000 cited a scientific study that tested if my view was right or not, and proved it conclusively wrong, then I would be only too happy to agree that it's wrong. He just hasn't done that yet.
Scorpio, you'd argue against the sky being blue...
Oh hey! Real science here.
http://www.ligo.caltech.edu/
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=gravitational-wave-ligo
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
46 (
view
)
Speed of light.......... just something about it.....
Posted:
11/16/2009 4:24:01 PM
In this case, the fundamental medium of information transfer in the universe is light.
Actually, that would be incorrect. The overall bias is to assume light is predominant in the universe because, well, we see it. However, gravity is far more pervasive. Indeed, it cannot travel faster than the speed of light since information in a relativistic universe is restricted to that speed limit. Hence...gravity waves.
Dark matter and dark energy are predominant since dark matter (and its gravity) is known to influence the development of galaxies and dark energy is pushing the universe apart to an increasing extent.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
44 (
view
)
Speed of light.......... just something about it.....
Posted:
11/16/2009 3:41:32 PM
The effects of such perception not only happen to your eyes. They happen to all bodies that use light as a medium of information transfer, which is AFAIK every atom in the universe. So the effects of perception don't just change your perception. The effects of perception change the perception of the universe.
Understand, we are not talking about light. We are talking about the
speed
of light which is a fundamental constant of the universe. The consequence of Relativity is that all experiences of the universe are the result of relative frames of reference. In other words, if you start at a rest position and then accelerate to a significant fraction of the speed of light, you are going to experience time differently than those you left be hind.
The reason for this is simple...the speed of light is constant, regardless of your frame of reference. It's why, travelling at 99 per cent of the speed of light, you are going to still see a light beam travel out in front of you at what you perceive as
the speed of light
. There will be no difference between your current experience and your rest experience.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
42 (
view
)
Speed of light.......... just something about it.....
Posted:
11/16/2009 3:07:06 PM
rom what I understand, Einstein's theory of relativity is more about perception than physics.
No, not really. It's real effects that are observable and have been observed. As you approach the speed of light, you are not seeing your stationary friends increasingly age faster than you as some kind of optical illusion, time has slowed down relative to your friends at home and so, when you get home, they have aged. You have experienced time dilation.
Now, if you want to get your train to go from .5 c to 1 c, bring a LOT of coal.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
40 (
view
)
Speed of light.......... just something about it.....
Posted:
11/16/2009 2:48:32 PM
An object in motion tends to stay in motion unless acted on by an external force. Or it impacts something that's moving more slowly. So yes, it just coasts on.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
572 (
view
)
New Swine Flu vaccine is dangerous business
Posted:
11/16/2009 2:34:58 PM
Might we ask if vaccines are now powerless against evolution of plagues, and perhaps contributors to viral evolution? Naw...Not us...We're bigger than nature.
Nature bats last though..
If viruses didn't evolve, then one vaccine would be enough and the disease would go extinct. However, since viruses do evolve, then we're always playing catch-up with nature.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
38 (
view
)
Speed of light.......... just something about it.....
Posted:
11/16/2009 2:26:47 PM
Right. Now theoretically, if we could bypass acceleration altogether and just push an object to lightspeed. Would that object still need the entire energy of the universe to maintain that velocity?
You couldn't "bypass" acceleration. Once you leave your rest frame, you're accelerating. Doesn't matter whether you do it nearly instantaneously (since acceleration is equivalent to gravity, the force would destroy you just as quick) or not, you're still in a process of accelerating.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
10 (
view
)
Selling Human Beings on the Intergalactic Space Market
Posted:
11/16/2009 1:57:52 PM
"To serve man! It's a cook book!!!"
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
10 (
view
)
Free speach......... just how far does the right to free speach reach......
Posted:
11/16/2009 1:57:06 PM
I wasn't going to bring up the following fact, but if you agree with the OP, that would be me, you are disagreing with the ACLU
Yup, they can be wrong too.
No, more like the dawning of the age of aqaurius................
Ick, astrology!
All I know is I hate that song!
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
569 (
view
)
New Swine Flu vaccine is dangerous business
Posted:
11/16/2009 1:41:35 PM
I think the rest of the folks on this thread are interested in finding out the truth about vaccines.
The "truth" about vaccines? On this thread? When we've got people even denying that viruses exist? And the best they can offer is "eat your veggies?"
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
36 (
view
)
Speed of light.......... just something about it.....
Posted:
11/16/2009 1:26:54 PM
And if an object approaches the speed of light, does it really have more mass or just more force? This might be a dumb example, but if I throw a one pound bible against the wall at 10 miles an hour, then a pro-league pitcher throws a one pound bible at the wall at 100 miles an hour, does the 100 mile an hour bible have more mass? Or does it just hit with more force?
What you're talking about is acceleration. Einstein talked about equivalency between mass and energy. So the greater the acceleration, the greater the mass. In effect, once acceleration approaches the speed of light, then the amount of energy needed to accelerate that mass becomes greater. So its mass becomes greater because the two are equivalent. To bring a decent sized ship to 99.9999 per cent of the speed of light, you're looking at the entire mass/energy budget of the universe.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
567 (
view
)
New Swine Flu vaccine is dangerous business
Posted:
11/16/2009 1:20:14 PM
So then H1N1 really is a problem...jeez, I wonder if they have a way to deal with this. A means of protecting people from catching the flu. Make them immune to it, somehow.
Hmm....!
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
6 (
view
)
Free speach......... just how far does the right to free speach reach......
Posted:
11/16/2009 1:16:23 PM
OMG!!! General agreement...could this be a sign of the Apocalypse?
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
234 (
view
)
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted:
11/16/2009 1:11:58 PM
Greed goes beyond that. It is rampant acquisition, often "at all costs" and without regard to a greater good.
Not to be an ass, but you really are stretching here. This is not what the definition is. You are taking your own negative connotations of the term and using it to justify a new definition.
Fair enough, but I stand by that interpretation. Greed
does have
a negative connotation and the proof is in the pudding. Whenever greed becomes a primary driver, then the result is disaster. That is history.
To fail to see the role that this "at all costs" mindset didn't play in the latest economic crash is ideological.
I have openly admitted that this mindset did play a major role in the crisis. But you do not seem to understand that the Federal Reserve is the institution that loaned out the vast majority of the money to create the imbalances to begin with - and Frannie May and Freddie Mac, both government entities, bought risky mortgages, giving "greedy" investment banks an easy out of the risks of lending.
Oh, I do understand the role that plays. But I would also counter that what you're saying is akin to justification. A little like saying "Yeah, I shot that guy. But you put the gun in front of me so it's your fault."
These are complex scenarios but it's easy to see that greed...the desire to acquire in excess...became a major driving factor. Those who created the problem, by your own description, simply took advantage of the opportunity, and damn the consequences.
We have enough history to show us what happens when greed goes unchecked.
Yep. North Korea, the Soviet Union, and China which has fortunately been improving by going the way of free markets.
U.S. during the Great Depression. Rome. Great Britain. China is moving towards a
freer
economy. I wouldn't characterize it as "free" yet.
It's faith that "the free-market system works" despite clear evidence to the contrary.
I challenge you to name one nation that has been able to make the achievement of eliminating starvation, homelessness, and other problems of poverty, for the great bulk of it's population WITHOUT a free market system.
I've yet to see one free market system solve the problem of poverty, homelessness and starvation. Again, a complex issue, not "solved" by any single thing.
Despite all of the vulnerabilities of eBay, despite the fact that it is a system built more or less on autonomy, despite the fact that one can easily "disappear" and get away with harming other individuals, despite all of the "information asymmetry", eBay has been a MASSIVE success for the great majority of people who use it. Do you really think the buyers and seller of eBay would be better off if they were subject to all of the bureaucratic regulations of our federal government, not to mention be taxed for it?
You would be a fool to think so.
Taxation is an entirely different subject. Ebay is more along the lines of commerce. It's not the wholesale buying and trading of stocks, mortgages, etc., so I would characterise it as comparing apples and oranges.
Hey, don't get me wrong. I'm no fan of communism, or command economies. They definitely DO NOT work. However, I would argue against a completely
deregulated
market. My point is that a market without reasonable amounts of regulation - regulations that provide transparency and consequence (including significant jail time) to those whose greed leads to transgression of the law with the results being the wholesale victimization of those who entrusted them with their life savings.
Regarding Bernie Madoff, as he has been brought up. His was a classic example of greed gone wild. The warnings went out about him years before. However, the problem was the system that put people in a position to monitor the markets who were too deferential to that system and the people in it. Harry Markopolos should be considered a hero.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
12 (
view
)
Plague in the Ukraine
Posted:
11/16/2009 10:38:30 AM
Actually twister, that was an interesting read. And a lot more believable as it's coming from a legitimate news sources versus some other sites we get linked to here.
It's perfectly reasonable to believe that a current or even unknown virus can and has mutated somewhere in the world. However, even the health officials are saying they're not sure what they're dealing with. That means, they don't know what they're dealing with. It's not a secret code to say "We're part of the NWO cabal trying to kill you" which is where these discussions seem to go.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
225 (
view
)
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted:
11/16/2009 10:28:57 AM
Part of the problem has been in your insistence at referring to anyone who disagrees with you as "dumbass." I'd strongly recommend against such obvious, crude and sophomoric behaviour if you actually want to have a reasoned and intelligent discussion about something.
In addition to reducing your credibility, it also shows a tendency to discuss not from an intellectual standpoint, but from an ideological one. And frankly, there's just no point in arguing another person's "religion," whether that's Christianity, Islam, communism of laissez-faire economics.
Do we predominantly act on our own self-interest? Yes. Of course we do. A strictly altruistic approach to life is unsustainable. To say we commonly acknowledge such a basic concept is to say we commonly acknowledge the sky is blue.
However, if we are generally agreed that greed, as defined, is a desire and/or the acquisition of excess, then we already see that there is a problem. Greed generally has a negative connotation to it. If greed involves excessive acquisition, then by simple logic, we can see that it will come at the expense of somewhere else in the system. Someone loses out.
We do have an economy that operates on the acquisition of resources (money) through the rendering of our services. Through it, we acquire other resources (food, shelter) and, if there is extra, then other consumables (TVs, cars, trips), the production of which creates other jobs.
But that is not greed. That is commerce. Greed goes beyond that. It is rampant acquisition, often "at all costs" and without regard to a greater good. Yes, the Gordon Gekko speech from Wall Street was very compelling. However, it was also speaks to this "at all costs" mentality.
We have enough history to show us what happens when greed goes unchecked. The balance shifts and the economy can no longer sustain itself. It fails and, rather than grow, it shrinks. To fail to see the role that this "at all costs" mindset didn't play in the latest economic crash is ideological. It's faith that "the free-market system works" despite clear evidence to the contrary.
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
9 (
view
)
Plague in the Ukraine
Posted:
11/16/2009 9:40:36 AM
Well then duks, how about a reliable source for this information. The WHO is considered a reasonably reliable source for health information. Hey, if you've got something reliable, then let us know. But, at this point, I DID do my own digging and here's an example of what I found:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=15945
Keeping in mind that Global Research is a "New World Order is taking over" paranoia site. And there were several others.
Hey, if this really
is
a legitimate health concern, then fine. We need to know. However, there are enough posts rife with conspiracy theory about H1N1, vaccination, New World Order, etc. Do we really need another one?
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
4 (
view
)
Plague in the Ukraine
Posted:
11/16/2009 9:02:12 AM
There is plenty of info on the web (and a little in the MSM). At least have a look before you start with the "Chicken Little" crap.
Um...who's starting with the "Chicken Little" crap?
Again...it's called "evidence." You're the one making the claim. Offer us something other than "someone says it's happening."
stargazer1000
Joined:
1/16/2008
Msg:
2 (
view
)
Plague in the Ukraine
Posted:
11/16/2009 8:26:01 AM
As far as I can tell, the only ones talking about this "plague" are the usual woo-woos who are sure every government agency and NGO has a secret agenda to wipe out the population, on orders from the Illuminati Mason lizard space aliens.
If you've got something resembling real evidence, let us know.
Show ALL Forums