Fraud does not exist until it is identified, accused and then proven, therefore there is no crime committed by the act of becoming pregnant.

I am opposed to the government interfering where they are not supposed to be interfering. period.

Of married women who cheat only 2-3 percent have children with their affair and lie to their partners about paternity.

But I also believe in upholding people's right to privacy and not having the government mandating dna testing on people.

I do not believe it to be such a wide-spread problem to justify invading the privacy of all parents/children and forcing a test upon them

But the attitude of many who are participating here is that women are tricking men.

If you don't want to be responsible/held responsible/tricked into having or raising a child, than it up to YOU to prevent that from happening.

We could drink! We could have sex (protected, of course).

capitano, I"m surprised at you! Following your own logic, since men fuvk & run, if they don't want to pay cs, then they should be doubly sure that they don't produce a child. What women are going to do about it is to sue them for money, so perhaps it's time men wised up.

Truth is, I disagree with your beliefs about "most women", and likely about most men as well.

The onus of preventing pregnancy falls most heavily on the party most desirous of preventing pregnancy. Pretty simple, one would think.

In any case, when unplanned pregnancies occur, there are always two people who have to deal with it. It's not about fair, it's about reality.

There are many reasons that someone would flee from their responsibility, but it is not right that any parent would shirk their responsibility, so to answer why seems moot. It is simply not right, regardless of the circumstance that got them there and regardless of their gender.

Can't we just leave it at that and cease the childish bickering?

My kids will often roll their eyes and say "We know Mom, it's not a Democracy it's a benevolent Dictatorship" So we understand each other well and are great friends as long as they respect who is boss. I thank god every day that I have not had the issues many single parents have when lines get blurred.

For those in the mood to continue to argue, I am curious as to how long it will be until we see the day that men/women who claim to be sterile are also charged with fraud (or for that matter, those who claim to have their real teeth, hair, breasts, etc.) Carry on....

And that attitude is the exact problem. The "so what" mentality.

So now we're using stupidity and ignorance as an excuse for ditching parental responsibility?

When you make an irresponsible choice in any aspect of your life you have to stand up and deal with it, no matter how life altering it that choice becomes. It's not different when you create life.

I suspect has returned under judgeLiz....now of whitby rather than Toronto!

Ah.. I get it now.. so then it goes for men too..

And I don't believe the "vast majority" do that..

As a single mom, if I were to live with my bf, there is no way on earth I would go into it without discussing what his role would be regarding my children. I can safely say that I’m not the only single mom, in the entire world, that would have this discussion.

Have you even bothered to read what I’ve written before?

Plausible deniability?? I don't really know what you mean at all with that comment.

He decided to go in bareback or without ensuring for himself that HE was protected!

If you leave it up to the other person then you are placing your fate in the hands of another.

Then maybe those men aren't smart enough to do their research and find out whether or not they will be responsible for child support if they live together. What makes you think that more women know about it?

Just living together, even if she has kids, does not mean that the non-bio is responsible for support unless it's proven that: the non-bio performed caretaking functions at least as great as the legal parent, shaped the child’s daily routine and addressed his or her developmental needs, disciplined the child, provided for education and care, and served as a moral guide. and the other criteria are also met

The KNOWINGLY part, is about their agreement that he will help raise the children as if they were his own.

These criteria are not about determining who pays child support.

These are specific criteria set by the courts used to determine if non-bio is a de facto parent or not.

The criteria themselves are not open for interpretation.

In other words, the non-bio knowingly entered into this specific type of relationship with the consent of the bio mom, AND with the intent of raising the child as his own.

Amniocentesis is an invasive procedure whereby a needle is inserted through the woman's belly and into the uterus to extract dna from the amniotic sac. It also carries a high risk of miscarriage due to it's invasiveness.

Due to these reasons, yes I would be opposed to forcing women to undergo paternity tests prior to the baby's birth.

Anyone else notice that Canadians are starting to revolt?

: Not only did I mention stats, I also called you "my love". I am a closet capitano freak, too!

btw, how come I seem to no longer have emoticons?!?!

Capitano, my love, you are quite right in that I often refer to the useless of statistics, and I will continue to do so, as they are most often cited without regard to the qualitative. Thus my inclusion of the fact that the statistics used to name paternity fraud "rampant" only include those who deny paternity. That I can use the same stats to make a contrary argument provides evidence for my belief that statistics are, in & of themselves, useless.

The difference exists in one simply question, "do you make her happy she you're together?". If so, don't worry about it.....I consider it all relating! Love springs eternal from hope so, inspire her! Reach and touch her! Show her the world....and shell take you there.....just find somebody you want to hold onto. Somebody you cannot harm or hurt....because it's not an option. Let her be your light.

It is blatantly ignorant of you to spout off about the "rampant" practice of paternity fraud & to indicate that women view cs as "precious". Firstly, were you to actually educate yourself, the compiled data regarding paternity fraud includes only those who deny paternity, and even with that, the rate is approx. 30%.

I think you confused the "should be obvious" voters too hahaha

There exist men who simply don't want to know, for whatever reason, and there exist those, men & women alike, who simply don't want the government to tell them what to do. Let's not forget that with governmental involvement comes additional costs.

^^^ Yeah, I totally want my birthing experiences to include a "hey oh btw we need to perform a "are you a cheating whore" check on you Mom, nothing personal, but seeing as you have the audacity to be a woman & birth a child, it is just routine!".

because kids are great! and I think it's a shame to encourage them to never have them

Well... that's a shame..

I also said women should take responsibility for the child they participated in creating as well since men cannot be trusted with being responsible with their birth control.

Still I notice how no man has touched the vasectomy suggestion.. it's probably the most effective method out there..

92% of all statistics are made up, including that one.
~~~~~~
This is what I believe in.. when it comes to stats from any source..

I would question that 30% number.. Maybe that's the percentage of all tests regardless of who wants them or why..

The whole "if you are female & have a functioning uterus, you are guilty until proven innocent", seems more of a way "stick it to the evil whores of the world"..... rather than genuine concern for children.

Were's tealwood when we need stats on paternity fraud.. i'd bet it's not as big a problem as it's claimed to be. Maury is not indicative of the general population.

I agreed that it sucks you can get roped into it just because a woman points a finger, I also think you should be able to recoup monies paid under false pretenses. I don't respect women who knowingly falsely accuse a man of paternity.

It´s about time... don´t you think?

Woman: Hey Babe how was work today?

Man: grumble grumble

Woman: Well I blah blah blah then mom called and blah blah blah my sister blah blah blah and then the neighbor blah blah blah blah blah and to top it all off the car blah blah blah.

...and the last before the last, is hear all the problems you encountered all day long on a matter of 5 minutes.

Ever wonder how your guy feels about coming home? Fear and trepidation.

I don't particularly like sports but I like the beer that tends to be associated with sports. Mmmm, beer.

So what does that make me? Androgyous?

I believe in Maslow's heirarchy.

Because of the rewards. Creating our own families. And we tend to forget & gloss over how bad it really was until we are back in the delivery room.

Therefore it's is TWO people's decision.

I could pass the pregnancy on to you.. i'd gladly forgo it..

So now dealing with the consequences of your actions and taking responsibility for them is deemed fatalistic???

I understand where men are coming from.

...there is a child that was created by 2 people and it need to be taken care of by both of them.

Theoretically speaking: the emotional bond is stablished for the mother from the day one because is inside her; for the man, since is not physical, is somehow, something abstract until birth when become reality rather than an idea, presencial rather than imaginary, a life which can be seen rather than a dream...

Hmmmmmmm too bad men didn't wear condoms to protect themselves against unwanted pregnancies, unless these were all emaculate conceptions, it takes two to make a baby and both are responsible not just the woman

Feminism is basically about women having equal rights in our society, thats it, bad things happen to good people all the time, it's not something you can control, blaming feminism for what happens in your life and the choices you make, shows a lack of personal responsiblity IMO.

^^^So are hapless chauvinistic men.

Feminists are not just out to stop chauvenists.