Your thoughts please

Here's a summary: vaccination itself sickens potentially thousands. Deaths and serious illnesses are exceedingly rare, and when known to be caused by the vaccine itself, it's typically non-flu vaccines for which risks are already known [eg., polio]. However, flu vaccine alone prevents deaths and hospitalizations of MILLIONS, either directly by vaccination, or by the resulting herd immunity.

What are the methods you use to bring non-believers over to your faith?

Do you draw a line on the methods used? Or is there a line in your mind?

Is a person's salvation justification for any methods used?

And for all those in between.. what do you think is the greatest way to influence another spiritually?

There is no absolute evidence of Jesus's existence or proof to the truth of any of the accounts written in the bible.

Most Christians believe in the Commandment "Thou Shall Not Kill" and are Peacemakers who are trying to stop war, capital punishment, abortions, or any other form of killing. However, most Christians readily eat meat and don't mind that animals have been killed to supply their meal. A part of me thinks that Christians should be Vegetarians. It seems most Vegetarians are New Agers, Hippies, and Health Conscious types of people. How do other people feel on this issue? Should Christians and other God Believers be Vegetarians?

Very important mission Fitguy, will volunteer for this mission, pick you up tomorrow morning?

Nothing would actually surprise me. Back in the early 80s there was a stripper who got alot of attention claiming to "strip for God". Not sure how many Churches brought her in to speak though. Then a couple of years back there was a story on CNN about a Christian Nudist Camp down in the Carolinas.

Has anyone else happened to see a TV Minister named Melissa Scott? I have never been a fan of TV ministers, but this woman blew me away. For one thing, she is stunningly beautiful. She wears black clothing and a clerical collar and intreprets Bible passages from the Greek. At the end of the show she sings a hymn and sings beautifully.

"when he arrived in Nod, he then "took a wife"....it is hard to believe that he would have taken a wife (one of his presumed sisters) from the "garden" and taken her with him into Nod!

I do have a question for biblical literalists. Since the two versions differ substantially, in particular with respect to the order in which man and woman and animals were created, how is this reconciled? I mean the question respectfully. While we do differ, I am simply trying to understand that viewpoint.

My personal beliefs tend toward the view that God, having created the world in all it's splendor, chooses to use natural means rather than supernatural means to accomplish things. After all, having created all of these wonderful tools, why should God not be allowed to use them? I realize that opinions may differ on this. But taking that as a hypothesis, one would expect that God caused humans to come from lower forms of life, and that Adam and Eve were designated persons, probably not at all the only ones around like themselves, but representative of the attainment of a gradual trend toward humanity.

I realize that those who dislike mixing evolution with God are going to disagree. I say fine. We can respectfully disagree.

But it does explain the whole thing. Before shooting it down, may I ask the courtesy of an alternate explanation that also explains the whole thing?

B) Spiderman's strength can't even topple The Incredible Hulk's strength levels. (who happens to be under The Thing's...lol....)

After a few hand assisted karate kicks it became evident that Jesus was being allowed to win the contest. It made me wonder if this was a fair fight or was being unconsciously determined by the religious bias of the puppeteer.

I feel sure that Spiderman would have put up a better show. He does after all have wall crawling abilities, the ability to spin and throw webs, a handy spider sense that warns of danger and most importantly the proportionate strength of a spider. Furthermore, it could be argued that in such a battle of Super Heroes, Jesus would simply turn the other cheek, enabling Spidey to easily gain the upper hand. I'd be interested in reading different opinions on this.

Also how do you think Jesus would do against Superman, Batman and Captain America?

If you think a theory doesn't mean their is evidence and it's just a guess, I invite all creationists to lick my toilet bowl, or eat a good chunk of plutonium.

The thing about the gold tablets looks a bit dodgy - couldn't the angel have had copies of the tablets made for Smith to keep and make available for scrutiny?

I'd also like to know more about the special underpants that Mormons wear. I'm getting tired of traditional Y fronts and could be prepared to adopt a faith offering superior underwear, especially if supplied free of charge.

On June 20, 1987 the Turkish government announced to the world that they agree with Wyatt’s 'Noah's Ark' findings and began the construction of a special visitors centre. The Ark of the Covenant Present Location and Importance Background: Ron Wyatt is an archeologist who has been led by the Lord to discover the location of the Ark of the Covenant.

The ark of the covenant is supposedly guarded by monks in Ethiopia and is believed to be radiocative and extremely dangerous. Do a google search for it if you want to know more, just keep in mind that it's just a rumor.

As to getting tired, I'm tired of being told by many Christians that I, who believe in the same God as they do, will go to Hell. This after God's explicit promise to the Jewish people saying differently. These people can't even read their own Bible!

I'm sorry, but I think it is very evil for people to go round saying, you are eternally damned if you don't believe in christ.

I'm out of the broom closet!

Read my last post. I went around for much of my life believing in god. At one time I was a "cafeteria" catholic, and later on, belief in a single deity without jesus, as well as believing there was something to astrology and believing in an all powerfull creator too.

Literature, including the Bible, as evidence is not useful or valid. It offers no scientific validation, and actually offers only MORE contradiction to known and verifiable reality. Widespread flood stories certainly do not support a global flood. The stories differ in nature, time frame, details, etc. Some specifically speak of regional floods. Many speak of someone OTHER than Noah surviving, somewhere OTHER than Ararat. Many of these stories are in regions where there is ample evidence of local or regional prehistoric flooding. There is NO evidence of global flooding.

Scientists once understood the fossils, which are buried in water-carried sediments of mud and sand, to be mostly the result of the great Flood. Those who now accept millions of years of gradual accumulation of fossils have, in their way of thinking, explained away the evidence for the global Flood. Hence, many compromising Christians insist on a local flood.

Secularists deny the possibility of a worldwide Flood at all. If they would think from a biblical perspective, however, they would see the abundant evidence for the global Flood. As someone once quipped, “I wouldn’t have seen it if I hadn’t believed it.”

Those who accept the evolutionary timeframe, with its fossil accumulation, also rob the Fall of Adam of its serious consequences. They put the fossils, which testify of disease, suffering, and death, before Adam and Eve sinned and brought death and suffering into the world. In doing this, they also undermine the meaning of the death and resurrection of Christ. Such a scenario also robs all meaning from God’s description of His finished creation as “very good.”

If the Flood only affected the area of Mesopotamia, as some claim, why did Noah have to build an Ark? He could have walked to the other side of the mountains and escaped. Most importantly, if the Flood were local, people not living in the vicinity of the Flood would not have been affected by it. They would have escaped God’s judgment on sin.
A local flood covering the mountains?

A local Flood?

In addition, Jesus believed that the Flood killed every person not on the Ark. What else could Christ mean when He likened the coming world judgment to the judgment of “all” men in the days of Noah (Matthew 24:37–39)?

In 2 Peter 3, the coming judgment by fire is likened to the former judgment by water in Noah’s Flood. A partial judgment in Noah’s day, therefore, would mean a partial judgment to come.

If the Flood were only local, how could the waters rise to 20 feet (6 m) above the mountains (Genesis 7:20)? Water seeks its own level; it could not rise to cover the local mountains while leaving the rest of the world untouched.

Even what is now Mt. Everest was once covered with water and uplifted afterward. (Mount Everest is more than 5 miles (8 km) high. How, then, could the Flood have covered “all the mountains under the whole heaven?” Before the Flood, the mountains were not so high. The mountains today were formed only towards the end of, and after, the Flood by collision of the tectonic plates and the associated up-thrusting. In support of this, the layers that form the uppermost parts of Mt. Everest are themselves composed of fossil-bearing, water-deposited layers.) If we even out the ocean basins and flatten out the mountains, there is enough water to cover the entire earth by about 1.7 miles (2.7 km). (A.R. Wallace, Man’s Place in the Universe, McClure, Phillips & Co, New York, 1903, 225–226; www.wku.edu/~smithch/wallace/S728-3.htm) Also important to note is that, with the leveling out of the oceans and mountains, the Ark would not have been riding at the height of the current Mt. Everest, thus no need for such things as oxygen masks either.

There’s more. If the Flood were a local flood, God would have repeatedly broken His promise never to send such a flood again. God put a rainbow in the sky as a covenant between God and man and the animals that He would never repeat such an event. There have been huge local floods in recent times (e.g., in Bangladesh); but never has there been another global Flood that killed all life on the land.
Where Is the Evidence in the Earth for Noah’s Flood?


Evidence of Noah’s Flood can be seen all over the earth, from seabeds to mountaintops. Whether you travel by car, train, or plane, the physical features of the earth’s terrain clearly indicate a catastrophic past, from canyons and craters to coal beds and caverns. Some layers of strata extend across continents, revealing the effects of a huge catastrophe.

The earth’s crust has massive amounts of layered sedimentary rock, sometimes miles (kilometers) deep! These layers of sand, soil, and material—mostly laid down by water—were once soft like mud, but they are now hard stone. Encased in these sedimentary layers are billions of dead things (fossils of plants and animals) buried very quickly. The evidence all over the earth is staring everyone in the face.

by Robert Doolan

Dr. Arlton C. Murray is known for digging up fossils and burying evolution.

For most of his life he has worked at excavating fossils and preparing them for professional display. He has worked for the Smithsonian Institution and the National Park Service in Washington, DC, and for the William Penn Museum in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. More recently he excavated a dinosaur for Liberty University’s museum in Lynchburg, Virginia. He has built up such a knowledge about fossils, and enjoys his work with them so much, that when he lectures or talks on this subject he is usually introduced as ‘Mr Fossil’.

Dr. Murray worked for 27 years with the Smithsonian Institution as a field collector and preparator of vertebrate fossils. He proudly admits to being a creationist, and even has the words ‘creation scientist’ printed on his business cards. He was once an atheist and evolutionist, but now totally rejects those former beliefs.

‘The true explanation of the fossil record is very clear’, he says. ‘The only reasonable explanation for the fossil record, and the sedimentary formations in which they are found, is the great cataclysm of the Noachic Deluge.’

During Dr. Murray’s early years at the Smithsonian he was heavily indoctrinated in evolution. ‘Not being a Christian, my indoctrination in evolutionistic geology just seemed to come naturally, and like so many do, I assumed it was all true.’ He says he fell deeply into the rut of evolutionary belief and the study of ‘the age of rocks’.
Found the right rock

At the insistence of some friends, he attended some revival meetings in a little church in Maryland. He sees this as his graduation day from death to life. ‘God reached down and lifted me from the miry clay of evolution to the glorious realm of creation science’, he says. ‘I now had met the “Rock of Ages”—and that Rock is Jesus Christ. He gave me my BA degree—Born Again.’

From that time he started to see the errors and problems with the theory of evolution that he hadn’t noticed before.

For example, he says, ‘Evolutionists assume that in each sedimentary stratum certain fossils appear to be distinctively abundant. To them, these fossils are labelled as index fossils. So they come to the conclusion that the fossils are the means of dating the rocks. But how do they know that index fossils only lived in certain ages and not in others?’ He says the answer is simply the assumption that evolution is true!

Dr. Murray also sees a major obstacle for evolutionists in the fact that the fossil record contains no indication that one type of creature has turned into a completely different type. ‘There is not a single intermediate fossil ever found’, he says. ‘All fossils that are found clearly show that each has developed “after its kind”, as the Bible tells us.’
Exicting find

One of Dr. Murray’s major fossil recoveries was Pennsylvania’s most complete skeleton of a mastodon—an extinct mammal something like an elephant. On a hot Friday in July of 1968, a mining company accidentally unearthed three bone fragments at Marshalls Creek in the Pocono area of Pennsylvania.

‘I was employed by the William Penn Museum at this time, in the departments of archaeology and palaeontology. So I had the honour of going to see the three bone fragments.’

Dr. Murray identified them as belonging to the left rear part of a mastodon skull. Within weeks, he was leading a crew from the museum to Marshalls Creek to excavate the rest of the skeleton. ‘It turned out to be about a 98 per cent complete mastodon skeleton, and represents the most complete skeletal recovery in the State of Pennsylvania.’

And there was more. While preparing the bones for display back at the museum, Dr. Murray found an unusual characteristic of the skeleton. ‘I discovered that this mastodon had suffered a severe case of osteomyelitis, a serious bone infection that is rather rare in vertebrate fossils.’ The mastodon soon became a highly prized exhibit in the William Penn Museum in Pennsylvania.
How his interest began

Dr. Murray says that some of the best times of his life have been out on the fossil fields. His fossil-finding goes back to when he was at a boy scout camp at Chesapeake Bay in Maryland. He was walking along the beach when he found a fairly good specimen of an extinct long-beaked porpoise (Eurhinodelphis bossi) in the cliffs. A few days later his fossil was at the Smithsonian. He was shown around the Smithsonian museum, and his fossil porpoise was given a lot of attention.

‘This is where the “fossil bug” bit me real hard’, he says. ‘The late Dr. Charles W. Gilmore graciously took me under his wing and eventually arranged for me to be employed as a preparator and field collector.’

He says there are many exciting aspects to the science of vertebrate palaeontology. ‘I find that the extensive fossil beds contain many remains of plants and animals in a perfect state of preservation, thus showing they were killed and buried suddenly by a great deluge.’

He believes an excellent example of this is in the millions of fossil fish that can be found. ‘Fossil fish are sometimes found in a very distorted position, showing instant burial and suffocation. It is exciting to uncover these relics of the Flood of Noah’s day and hold in my hand some of the remains of the flora and fauna of that time.’
Creationist dinosaur recovery

One recent fossil dig he took part in was the excavation of a dinosaur in Colorado for Liberty University’s Creation Museum in Virginia. This dinosaur was the first of its kind in any creationist museum.

‘What a thrill it is for me to be out on an expedition for fossils and to see a specimen from the days of the Flood burst out of an obscure antiquity into a very lively present time.’

With more than 45 years’ experience with fossils, Dr. Murray has long been in demand as a lecturer at Christian schools, churches, and other groups. He speaks about vertebrate fossils and their relationship to creation and Noah’s Flood, and about other evidences for creation. Some of his favourite other topics are the archer-fish, which catches insects by stunning them with a jet of water forced through a hole in its mouth, and the design features of spiders.

What about those who say God could have used evolution as His method of creation?

‘There is just no way that the theory of evolution can be reconciled with the truth of creation as recorded in the Bible. And as a former adherent to this false theory of evolution, I can assure anyone that to discount the God of creation and His wonderful works is sheer folly.’

Dr. Murray delights in the fact that his early experiences are now used to God’s honour and glory. ‘The best day in my life was my graduation day from death unto life and from “the age of rocks” to “the Rock of Ages” by the power of the God of creation.’

Hi guys, hope you don't mind if I join in for a sec. One scenario I've always thought would make it 'do-able' would have been hibernation. Many, maybe most, of the animals might have been sleeping. If the flood happened and if the ark was built, and I'm not sayin' yea, or nay - just speculatin'. Food consumption and elimination would have been greatly lessened if they (the animals) were sleeping. Just my 2 cents.

Looking at that Korean study I have to ask myself if while they were wondering if the design was plausible did they even begin to ask themselves anything about the actual geography and history of the region?

To engage in a make-work project of that magnitude and to command the level of resources of that amount in that short order as well as the amount of labour required to build such a vessel, he would have to be. Never mind the fact that he would require a time machine to obtain the engineering and shipbuilding know-how from centuries in the future...at least the Roman era if not later and before you ask, yes I have done some limited reading on the subject, but if you don't believe me I think any primer on the subject of shipbuilding and the vast amount of labour and materials required for such an undertaking would disabuse you (unless you are hopelessly deluded ) of this notion.

Why not just say it was all a miracle and be done with it, hmm?

Except for the small problem that there is absolutely no way to prove this historically while in fact the archaeological record supports the opposite and makes a lie of the above claim.

Comparison of Genesis and Gilgamesh

Genesis Gilgamesh

Extent of flood Global /Global
Cause Man’s wickedness /Man’s sins
Intended for whom? All mankind /One city & all mankind
Sender Yahweh /Assembly of “gods”
Name of hero Noah /Utnapishtim
Hero’s character Righteous /Righteous
Means of announcement Direct from God /In a dream
Ordered to build boat? Yes /Yes
Did hero complain? No /Yes
Height of boat Three stories /Seven stories
Compartments inside? Many /Many
Doors One /One
Windows At least one /At least one
Outside coating Pitch /Pitch
Shape of boat Oblong box /Cube
Human passengers Family members only /Family & few others
Other passengers All kinds of land animals (vertebrates) /All kinds of land animals
Means of flood Underground water & heavy rain /Heavy rain
Duration of flood Long (40 days & nights plus) /Short (6 days & nights)
Test to find land Release of birds/ Release of birds
Types of birds Raven & three doves /Dove, swallow, raven
Ark landing spot Mountains—of Ararat /Mountains—Mt Nisir
Sacrificed after flood? Yes, by Noah /Yes, by Utnapishtim
Blessed after flood? Yes /Yes
Which came first?

We can see from the table that there are many similarities, which point to a common source. But there are also significant differences. Even the order of sending out birds is logical in Noah’s account. He realized that the non-return of a carrion feeder like a raven proved nothing, while Utnapishtim sent the raven out last. But Noah realized that a dove was more logical—when the dove returned with a freshly picked olive branch, Noah knew the water had abated. And its non-return a week later showed that the dove found a good place to settle.

Genesis is older

It makes more sense that Genesis was the original and the pagan myths arose as distortions of that original account. While Moses lived long after the event, he probably acted as the editor of far older sources.9 For example, Genesis 10:19 gives matter-of-fact directions, ‘as you go toward Sodom and Gomorrah and Admah and Zeboiim’. These were the cities of the plain God destroyed for their extreme wickedness 500 years before Moses. Yet Genesis gives directions at a time when they were well-known landmarks, not buried under the Dead Sea.

It is common to make legends out of historical events, but not history from legends. The liberals also commonly assert that monotheism is a late evolutionary religious development. The Bible teaches that mankind was originally monotheistic. Archaeological evidence suggests the same, indicating that only later did mankind degenerate into idolatrous pantheism.(Schmidt, W., The Origin and Growth of Religion, Cooper Square, New York, 1971.)

For instance, in Genesis, God’s judgment is just, he is patient with mankind for 120 years (Genesis 6:3), shows mercy to Noah, and is sovereign. Conversely, the gods in the Gilgamesh Epic are capricious and squabbling, cower at the Flood and are famished without humans to feed them sacrifices. That is, the human writers of the Gilgamesh Epic rewrote the true account, and made their gods in their own image.

The whole Gilgamesh-derivation theory is based on the discredited Documentary Hypothesis.(Grigg, R., Did Moses really write Genesis?)

This assumes that the Pentateuch was compiled by priests during the Babylonian Exile in the 6th century BC. But the internal evidence shows no sign of this, and every sign of being written for people who had just come out of Egypt. The Eurocentric inventors of the Documentary Hypothesis, such as Julius Wellhausen, thought that writing hadn’t been invented by Moses’ time. But many archaeological discoveries of ancient writing show that this is ludicrous.
All people groups remember a global Flood

Liberals often claim that the Gilgamesh epic was embellished from a severe river flood, i.e. a local flood. This might work if there were similar flood legends only around the ancient near east. But there are thousands of such flood legends all around the world—see the chart below for some examples.

Flood Traditions chart

Even the Australian Aborigines have legends of a massive flood, as do people living in the deep jungles near the Amazon River in South America. Dr Alexandra Aikhenvald, a world expert on the languages of that region, said:

‘… without their language and its structure, people are rootless. In recording it you are also getting down the stories and folklore. If those are lost a huge part of a people’s history goes. These stories often have a common root that speaks of a real event, not just a myth. For example, every Amazonian society ever studied has a legend about a great flood.’ (Barnett, A., For want of a word, New Scientist 181(2432):44–47, 31 January 2004.)

This makes perfect sense if there were a real global Flood as Genesis teaches, and all people groups came from survivors who kept memories of this cataclysm.
Ark shape
Ark tilt diagram
Diagram showing how resistant the Ark was to capsizing. After Henry Morris, The Biblical basis for modern science.
Click on picture for high resolution (126 kb).

The Ark was built to be tremendously stable. God told Noah to make it 300x50x30 cubits (Genesis 6:15) which is about 140x23x13.5 metres or 459x75x44 feet, so its volume was 43,500 m3 (cubic metres) or 1.54 million cubic feet. This is just right to keep the boat from capsizing and to smooth the ride. There are three main types of rotation in ships (and planes), about three perpendicular axes:


1) Yawing, rotation about a vertical axis, i.e. the bow and stern move alternately left to right.
2) Pitching, rotation about a lateral axis, an imaginary line left to right, i.e. the bow and stern move alternately up and down.

3) Rolling (or heeling), rotating about the longitudinal axis, an imaginary line from bow to stern, tending to tip the boat on its side.

Yawing is not dangerous, in that it won’t capsize a boat, but it would make the ride uncomfortable. Pitching is also an unlikely way to capsize a boat. In any case, the enormous length of the boat would make it align parallel to the wave direction, so these disturbances would be minimal.
real Ark scale

Rolling is by far the greatest danger, and the Ark solves that by being much wider than it is high. It would be almost impossible to tip over—even if the Ark were somehow tipped over 60°, it could still right itself, as shown in the diagram (above).

But it would be almost impossible to tip the Ark over even a fraction of this. David Collins, who worked as a naval architect, showed that even a 210-knot wind (three times hurricane force) could not overcome the Ark’s righting moment, which would have stopped the Ark tilting much beyond 3°.

Furthermore, Korean naval architects have confirmed that a barge with the Ark’s dimensions would have optimal stability. They concluded that if the wood were only 30 cm thick, it could have navigated sea conditions with waves higher than 30 m.14 Compare this with a tsunami (‘tidal wave’), which is typically only about 10 m high. Note also that there is even less danger from tsunamis, because they are dangerous only near the shore―out at sea, they are hardly noticeable.

Dr Werner Gitt showed that the Ark had ideal dimensions to optimize both stability and economy of material—

Contrast that with Utnapishtim’s ark—this was a huge cube! It is harder to think of a more ridiculous design for a ship—it would roll over in all directions at even the slightest disturbance. However, the story is easy to explain if they distorted Genesis, and found that one dimension is easier to remember than three, ‘its dimensions must measure equal to each other’, and it seems a much nicer shape. The pagan human authors didn’t realize why the real Ark’s dimensions had to be what they were. But the reverse is inconceivable: that Jewish scribes, hardly known for naval architectural skills, took the mythical cubic Ark and turned it into the most stable wooden vessel possible!
Genesis is the original.

The Gilgamesh Epic has close parallels with the account of Noah’s Flood. Its close similarities are due to its closeness to the real event. However, there are major differences as well. Everything in the Epic, from the gross polytheism to the absurd cubical ark, as well as the worldwide flood legends, shows that the Genesis account is the original, while the Gilgamesh Epic is a distortion.

At this point you're just beating a dead horse.

Because frankly there is no plausible explanation for any of it that is not utter nonsense. charlesedm already did an excellent job of pointing out the fallacies at hand in this utter rubbish..

Hey Fitman,

Maybe you should lay off the biceps for for a while and exercise your LOGIC MUSCLE, yours seems a bit whithered and atrophied. Let me get this right.... Someone looking specifically for the arc find a piece of petrified wood and claims it's from the exact 4,000 year old boat?

Here's a couple of problems:

1. Wood takes WAY more than 4,000 years to "petrify".
2. A 550 foot WOODEN boat would collapse under it's own weight.
3. The Middle East has NEVER been known the place of Forests... where do you suggest Noah found the millions of board feet of lumber for this MASSIVE boat?
4. 8 people could not feed thousands of animals (and muck out their stalls).
5. Carnivorous animals such as lions will get sick and die if they don't eat lots of MEAT.
6. One happy incestuous family CANNOT repopulate the world on two accounts:
a-- You can't reproduce Billions of people in 4,000 years from a single source
b-- There's more than a little problem with IN BREEDING after one generation... The 'family' would be freakish after 2 generations and dead by the 5th... let alone 1,000 generations. USE SOME LOGIC HERE for godsake.


Don't just start screaming about "hardcore" atheists because people are underwhelmed by your "archaeological discovery of the Millennium (even for a "millennium" that is only 8 years old).

James, Port Orchard, Washington, USA, Earth

The description of the Ark is very brief—Genesis 6:14–16. Those three verses contain critical information including overall dimensions, but Noah was almost certainly given more detail than this. Other divinely specified constructions in the Bible are meticulously detailed, like the descriptions of Moses’ Tabernacle or the temple in Ezekiel’s vision.

The Bible does not say the Ark was a rectangular box. In fact, Scripture gives no clue about the shape of Noah’s Ark other than the proportions—length, width, and depth. Ships have long been described like this without ever implying a block-shaped hull.

Moses used the obscure term tebah, a word that is only used again for the basket that carried baby Moses (Exodus 2:3). One was a huge wooden ship and the other a tiny wicker basket. Both float, both rescue life, and both are covered. But the similarity ends there. We can be quite sure that the baby basket did not have the same proportions as the Ark, and Egyptian baskets of the time were typically rounded. Perhaps tebah means “lifeboat.”

For many years biblical creationists have simply depicted the Ark as a rectangular box. This shape helped illustrate its size while avoiding the distractions of hull curvature. It also made it easy to compare volume. By using a short cubit and the maximum number of animal “kinds,” creationists, as we’ve seen, have demonstrated how easily the Ark could fit the payload.7 At the time, space was the main issue; other factors were secondary.

However, the next phase of research investigated sea-keeping (behavior and comfort at sea), hull strength, and stability. This began with a Korean study performed at the world-class ship research center (KRISO) in 1992.8 The team of nine KRISO researchers was led by Dr. Hong, who is now director-general of the research center.

The study confirmed that the Ark could handle waves as high as 98 feet (30 m), and that the proportions of the biblical Ark are near optimal—an interesting admission from Dr. Hong, who believes evolutionary ideas, openly claiming “life came from the sea.”9 The study combined analysis, model wave testing, and ship standards, yet the concept was simple: compare the biblical Ark with 12 other vessels of the same volume but modified in length, width, or depth. Three qualities were measured—stability, hull strength, and comfort.
Ship Qualities Measured in the 1992 Korean Study
( Hong, et al., Safety Investigation of Noah’s Ark in a seaway, TJ 8(1):26–36, April 1994.)

While Noah’s Ark was an average performer in each quality, it was among the best designs overall. In other words, the proportions show a careful design balance that is easily lost when proportions are modified the wrong way. It is no surprise that modern ships have similar proportions—those proportions work.

Interesting to note is the fact that this study makes nonsense of the claim that Genesis was written only a few centuries before Christ and was based on flood legends such as the Epic of Gilgamesh. The Babylonian ark is a cube shape, something so far from reality that even the shortest hull in the Korean study was not even close. But we would expect mistakes from other flood accounts, like that of Gilgamesh, as the account of Noah would have been distorted as it was passed down through different cultures.

Yet one mystery remained. The Korean study did not hide the fact that some shorter hulls slightly outperformed the biblical Noah’s Ark. Further work by Tim Lovett, one author of this chapter, and two naval architects, Jim King and Dr. Allen Magnuson, focused attention on the issue of broaching— being turned sideways by the waves.

How do we know what the waves were like? If there were no waves at all, stability, comfort, or strength would be unimportant, and the proportions would not matter. A shorter hull would then be a more efficient volume, taking less wood and less work. However, we can take clues from the proportions of the Ark itself. The Korean study had assumed waves came from every direction, giving shorter hulls an advantage. But real ocean waves usually have a dominant direction due to the wind, favoring a short, wide hull even more.

Another type of wave may also have affected the Ark during the Flood—tsunamis. Earthquakes can create tsunamis that devastate coastlines. However, when a tsunami travels in deep water it is imperceptible to a ship. During the Flood, the water would have been very deep—there is enough water in today’s oceans to cover the earth to a depth of about 1.7 miles (2.7 km). The Bible states that the Ark rose “high above the earth” (Genesis 7:17). Launched from high ground by the rising floodwaters, the Ark would have avoided the initial devastation of coastlines and low-lying areas, and remained safe from tsunamis throughout the voyage.

After several months at sea, God sent a wind (Genesis 8:1), which could have produced very large waves since these waves can be produced by a strong, steady wind. Open-water testing confirms that any drifting vessel will naturally turn side-on to the waves (broach). With waves approaching the side of the vessel (beam sea), a long vessel like the Ark would be trapped in an uncomfortable situation; in heavy weather it could become dangerous. This could be overcome, however, by the vessel catching the wind (Genesis 8:1) at the bow and catching the water at the stern—aligning itself like a wind vane. These features appear to have inspired a number of ancient ship designs. Once the Ark points into the waves, the long, ship-like proportions create a more comfortable and controlled voyage. Traveling slowly with the wind, it had no need for speed, but the Bible does say the Ark moved about on the surface of the waters (Genesis 7:18).

Compared to a ship-like bow and stern, blunt ends are not as strong, have edges that are vulnerable to damage during launch and beaching, and give a rougher ride. Since the Bible gives proportions like that of a true ship, it makes sense that it should look and act ship-like. The below design is an attempt to flesh out the biblical outline using real-life experiments and archeological evidence of ancient ships.

While Scripture does not point out a wind-catching feature at the bow, the abbreviated account we are given in Genesis makes no mention of drinking water, the number of animals, or the way they got out of the Ark either.

Nothing in this newly depicted Ark contradicts Scripture; in fact, it shows how accurate Scripture is!


1. Something to catch the wind

Wind-driven waves would cause a drifting vessel to turn dangerously side-on to the weather. However, such waves could be safely navigated by making the Ark steer itself with a wind-catching obstruction on the bow. To be effective, this obstruction must be large enough to overcome the turning effect of the waves. While many designs could work, the possibility reflects the high stems which were a hallmark of ancient ships.

According to Scripture, Noah’s Ark was a safe haven for representatives of all the kinds of air-breathing land animals that God created. While it is possible that God made miraculous provisions for the daily care of these animals, it is not necessary—or required by Scripture—to appeal to miracles. Exploring natural solutions for day-to-day operations does not discount God’s role: the biblical account hints at plenty of miracles as written, such as God bringing the animals to the Ark (Genesis 6:20; 7:9, 15). It turns out that a study of existing, low-tech animal care methods answers trivial objections to the Ark. In fact, many solutions to seemingly insurmountable problems are rather straightforward.
How Did Noah Fit All the Animals on the Ark?

According to the Bible, the Ark had three decks (floors). It is not difficult to show that there was plenty of room for 16,000 animals (the maximum number of animals on the Ark, if the most liberal approach to counting animals is applied), assuming they required approximately the same floor space as animals in typical farm enclosures and laboratories. The vast majority of the creatures (birds, reptiles, and mammals) were small (the largest only a few hundred pounds of body weight). What’s more, many could have been housed in groups, which would have further reduced the required space.

It is still necessary to take account of the floor spaces required by large animals, such as elephants and rhinos. But even these, collectively, do not require a large area because it is most likely that these animals were young, but not newborns. Even the largest dinosaurs were relatively small when only a few years old.
What Did the Dinosaurs Eat?

Dinosaurs could have eaten basically the same foods as the other animals. The large sauropods could have eaten compressed hay, other dried plant material, seeds and grains, and the like. Carnivorous dinosaurs—if any were meat-eaters before the Flood—could have eaten dried meat, reconstituted dried meat, or slaughtered animals. Giant tortoises would have been ideal to use as food in this regard. They were large and needed little food to be maintained themselves. There are also exotic sources of meat, such as fish that wrap themselves in dry cocoons.
How Were the Animals Cared For?

We must distinguish between the long-term care required for animals kept in zoos and the temporary, emergency care required on the Ark. The animals’ comfort and healthy appearance were not essential for emergency survival during one stressful year, where survival was the primary goal.
Proposed manure removing plan for the Ark


Animal enclosures with sloped, self-cleaning floors, emptying into a manure gutter or pit.

Studies of nonmechanized animal care indicate that eight people could have fed and watered 16,000 creatures. The key is to avoid unnecessary walking around. As the old adage says, “Don’t work harder, work smarter.”

Therefore, Noah probably stored the food and water near each animal. Even better, drinking water could have been piped into troughs, just as the Chinese have used bamboo pipes for this purpose for thousands of years. The use of some sort of self-feeders, as is commonly done for birds, would have been relatively easy and probably essential. Animals that required special care or diets were uncommon and should not have needed an inordinate amount of time from the handlers. Even animals with the most specialized diets in nature could have been switched to readily sustainable substitute diets. Of course, this assumes that animals with specialized diets today were likewise specialized at the time of the Flood.

i believe its about your faith...you don't need to believe in the bible, church or have to join church groups....its about how strong your faith is and if nothing with stop you from believing then that means your a true christian.....doesn't matter what religion you f...

I submit that attempting to define what a true Christian is, is about as meaningful as attempting to decide how many angels can do a bossa nova on the head of a pin...and frankly those who think they can and attempt to use the Bible as their proof text need a lesson in both common reasoning, theological history and humility.

But can't we do all of these things whether we believe in Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha or whether you are pagan, agnostic or atheist anyway ?

In short, is there such a thing as a true christian and if so, who defines the boundaries?

But debate? With a literalist? What possible "debate" can their be? AFAIK you seem to be pretty certain you KNOW the "heaven breathed" answers already so no debate as such can be possible...of course, the possibility that you could be utterly wrong or possibly even out of your depth wouldn't even occur to you.

In any case you still didn't deal with the additional "hen" problem... or the Psalm problem, where others may be referred to as "gods".

But of course not having bothered to read about Philo, you probably wouldn't have spotted that and assumed that "God did it" or some such stuff...

And who is to say that in a previous incarnation one would have to manifest all of the same characteristics of an existence every time? If Jesus were God incarnate, perhaps, but if he were only a mere mortal man like the rest of us...Oh, right, you need that belief for your view of religion, forget I said it. Well for anyone who doesn't have to believe in that part, certainly in Orthodox Judaism it is a possibility and has been since the beginning of what Christians would call "biblical times."

They just don't believe in it and don't teach it for some reason. They like to dare to be different in some ways...each to their own I guess, nothing wrong with that. *shrug*

Jesus never claimed to be god. Your theory is a non-starter. He claimed to be the son of god.

Excuse me but I think that's a difference of opinion and not a stumbling block to you personally. If you are confident in your own beliefs then what someone else believes cannot "take away" from what you perceive as "the glory and honor and diety of Christ."
Blasphemy? Oh dear! Let's reinstitute the inquisition and flail the flesh from their bones before we execute them. How shall we do it? I know! Let's crucify them!
You simply want to argue doctrine and feel righteous. Who will all you mainstream Christians abuse next if you ever manage to purge the earth of those JWs and Mormons? Will the Catholics and Protestants riot and murder each other in the streets like in Belfast?

HELLO EVERYBODY,WELL I HAVE BEEN READING ALOT OF THINGS ON THIS THREAT FOR OVER 2 HOURS NOW....AND ALL I HAVE TO SAY IS THAT THERES ALOT OF MEAN PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT DONT EVEN REALLY KNOW WHAT WITNESSES ARE REALLY ABOUT..THERE IS ALOT OF DIFFRENT THINGS GOING ON OUT THERE...MOST ARE LIES ....WE ARE NOT A SECT WE TRY TO FOLLOW WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES ...

So I do encourage anyone who is truly interested in know what JWs believe/teach to ask a JW. Yes...

theres only one thing I can tell u is that aliens are real.I cant tell u why but believe it or not they are really real.

Show me any evidence that this comes from an outside source. Perhaps a recording of an angelic warning? How about some testable results in a statistical analysis of "guardian angel" believers vs "non guardian angel believers" in car accidents?

The amusing thing is that the angel believers in here can't even agree on the nature of angels. You're of course assuming a evangelical christian viewpoint. Meanwhile ignoring other possibilities.

I.E. Aliens, Friendly invisible unicorns, forces of light, time traveling space bunnies, or simply dellusions as a result of people nearly being killed in a car accident.

Why is it that you consider two judgments, but you cannot comprehend two reconciliations, when the scriptures spell this out in much more direct language.

Colossians 1
19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

This is the full restoration and the final reconciliation of ALL THINGS.

if as certain it is appointed that men will die and face judgment, then how is it that believers are excluded from the judgment that is said to be appointed to all those who will certainly die. believers are also of that lot that are men appointed to die and be judged, are they not?

When we come to this thought of God's judgment we approach a subject upon which there has been a fathomless sea of ignorance and misunderstanding. Contrary to the popular opinions of the religious systems there is no such thing as a GENERAL JUDGMENT for all men. Such a doctrine is pagan in origin and flows from the philosophies of demons.

I suppose the point that I was trying to make is that this condition and state of being is spoken of applying to those who are alive on this earth, and is not addressing the fate of those who have gone to the grave with or without Christ. The wrath of God is presently upon those who are alienated from Christ, and they are experiencing this wrath in this earthly realm, God's wrath abides on them. They are not in hell being punished for thier sins in the literal sense of the meaning that traditional christianity implies....these people are alive and walking about in the earthly realm.

Is this verse talking of eternal punishment in hellfire and is that stated anywhere in the passage? or is your understannding being interpreted by perhaps the traditional interpretation that has been handed down for centuries and you also believe to be true?

This is a simple statement of the effects of belief and unbelief, regardless of the duration of the consequences. As long as one believes, life abides with him, the aionian life of the Gospel, while the unbeliever is deprived of this life. "He that believeth hath everlasting life," though by unbelief he may forfeit it, and regain it again by believing again. Such passages as these illustrate the New Testament use of the term:

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

"You hath he quickened who were dead in trespasses and sins."--Eph.ii:1. The believer hath "passed from death unto life."--John v:24. "We know that we have passed from death unto life because we love the brethren."--I. John iii:14. "To be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."--Rom. viii:6.

The question of the duration of the life or the "wrath is not raised in this passage. It remains, in either case, as long as the condition reamins that causes the life or the wrath.

Who are those "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

(also you're forgeting the people who believe in angels who get splattered over the sides of semi trucks, guess they didn't believe enough for the angels to help?)

No I think believing in Guardian angels does absolutely nothing but maybe give a false sense of security.

Do you think that believing in guardian angels gives you the key to eternal life? Of course not! If your time is up, it's up. What happened to me was 'something' keeping me from possible serious injury.

This doesn't make sense. What you are saying is that ANY experience of the supernatural is PROOF of the teachings of the Bible... why? So.... if a Indigenous Shaman can trance and speak with his animal guides THAT is proof of the Bibles' veracity? If a Houdoo priest can invoke his gods THAT is proof of the Bibles' veracity? Any concept or experience of the supernatural is proof of the Bibles' teachings? Someone sees a ghost in an old building.. does that count also? NDE's? Nature sprites and dryads? Astral beings?

The premise I see being purported here is that there are only two concepts that can be supported... (gosh I love black and white thinking) either we are just animals and there is NO spiritual realm AT ALL, or there is, but it HAS to be the interpretation of Christianity? There are no other possibilities?

Negative and positive spiritual beings populate almost every single culture that is, or was. in legend and mythology. Even in those who have never had any exposure to Judaism or Christianity (think the Aboriginals of Australia, or the tribes in deep South American jungles.. or the Polynesians)

I have spent a whole lot of time researching the paranormal, practicing divination, magick and also automatic writing and many other rituals that are meant to tap into the spiritual realms. I have NEVER experienced an entity that was powerful enough to be either a demon nor an angel. If anything I have found myself there...looking back.. sometimes in a higher frame of awareness, sometimes not. I have sensed ghosts... and echoes though. Very interesting. That has been my experience. That SOMETHING that is not purely physical is out there... is very probable. That is HAS to be "proof" of the Bibles' teachings? No. There are many ways to interpret such things, and it may be so alien to us that the only way we CAN understand it is through our religious ideologies.