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DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 22 (view)

help me indentify this relationship. Time to move on? Posted: 11/22/2009 8:26:42 AM
Not bi-polar, more similar to the BPD but without many of the symptoms. I agree, based on what you've said about your ex. Bipolar mood swings are very slow because they typically are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. They are considered rapid if as many as four occur in a year. In sharp contrast, four BPD mood changes can easily occur in four days. BPD rages, for example, typically last about 5 hours and rarely longer than 36 hours (if the BPD sufferer is inner-directed, you will not witness a raging screaming person but, instead, a quiet withdrawn person whose glances at you clearly say "I hate you"). A second difference is that the onset is very different. Whereas a bipolar change may occur over several weeks, a BPD change typically occurs in less than a minute -- often in 15 seconds -- because it is event-triggered by some innocent comment or action. A third difference is that, whereas bipolar can cause people to be irritable and obnoxious during the manic phase, it does not rise to the level of meanness you see when a BPD is splitting you black. The difference is huge: while a manic person may regard you as an irritation, a BPD person can perceive you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly. Finally, a fourth difference is that a bipolar sufferer -- whether depressed or manic -- usually is able to trust you if she knows you well. BPDs, however, are unable to trust -- even though they sometimes may claim otherwise. As FeelingTheBreeze explains above, the lack of trust means there is no foundation on which to build a relationship. Moreover -- and I learned this the hard way -- when a person does not trust you, you can never trust them because they can turn on you at any time -- and almost certainly will. Despite these four clear differences between the two disorders, many people confuse the two. The primary source of this confusion seems to be the fact that about a third of BPD sufferers also have the bipolar disorder. I wasn't expecting her to call and I wasn't expecting to go check out the house my female friend just bought. Really an unfortunate timing thing, she feels like I set her up. She sounds very down. Unfortunate timing? Not likely. The same cold withdrawal into silence probably would have occurred if she had caught you spending a lot of time with a puppy or video game you just bought. What you are observing likely is not bad timing but, rather, the manifestations of her thought disorder. You know the woman and I do not. And, at this point, you may already know about as much as I do about BPD traits. So you are the one who must decide which, if any, BPD traits are strong in your exGF. In making that decision, please do not be so quick to take her "sounding very down" seriously, as you seem to above. With BPDs, it is the most frequently used instrument in their toolbox. Because BPDs have a childhood in which everything seems totally out of control, they spend their adult lives desperately trying to control everyone around them in order to feel safe. They try to accomplish this by projecting a vulnerability that is pure catnip to caretaker types like you and me. That is why we can easily seek and find a BPD woman in a crowded room. We are drawn to them. Indeed, even normal folks find it very alluring, which explains why all the great actors and actresses are able to project a vulnerability that makes them so appealing. If your exGF "sounded very down" all the time, nobody would want to be around her because it would be too depressing. Instead, she likely will do it only when she wants to control you, i.e., to hook you or real you back in when it suits her purpose. That said, several cautions are warranted. First, this controlling nature does not really constitute "manipulation." The latter requires planning and careful execution, which BPDs are not good at because they are very reactive to whatever emotion is sweeping through them at the moment. Second, the "feeling down" often is a genuine emotion. Because BPDs lack a sense of who they are, they have an emptiness inside that leaves them unhappy most of the time. And, third, your exGF may have good reason to be unhappy with her job. My point, then, is not that she has no reason to be unhappy but, rather, that you should be cautious in reacting to such claims. You will hear them a lot if she has strong BPD traits. So far, you've been very lucky. If she becomes seriously interested in you and really wants to control you, she will at some point pull out the big gun: tears. Caretaking guys like you and me are utterly defenseless in the presence of a crying woman, especially if she trembles and shudders just a little.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 16 (view)

help me indentify this relationship. Time to move on? Posted: 11/21/2009 8:12:12 PM
What's best if I want to jump ship? The NC method? Yes. If you decide that her behavior is strongly BPD, it is pointless to try and achieve "closure." BPDs are interested in producing drama, not closure or solutions. Moreover, it is pointless to try to build up some store of good will with such a woman. It is as futile as trying to establish a sand castle beside the ocean. Due to her inability to regulate emotions, tides of strong feelings sweep through her often, pushing aside any feelings of gratitude she once had for you. As I said earlier, her current feelings are her reality, the facts be damned. That is why, with BPDs, it's always "what have you done for me lately?" They have an emptiness inside that you can never fill. So you would be lucky if any of your gifts or consoling words are appreciated beyond two weeks, if that. It is not their fault. They have been that way since early childhood. As adults, they suffer 24/7. So, if you decide to jump ship, please do not add to her pain by speaking out of anger. After all, you can walk away from this destructive disorder. She cannot.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 14 (view)

help me indentify this relationship. Time to move on? Posted: 11/21/2009 6:14:16 PM
I know she would talk about getting beat when she was a kid. Getting really beat. ... She ran away from home at age of 16. She talked about wanting to get hypnotized so she can determine if she was molested at a young age. As I noted above, BPDs have no stable sense of who they are. To the extent they have any self image, it is of being a victim like they were when they were throughout childhood. So they hold onto that self image and try to be controlling by projecting an image of themselves as victims. That probably is why your exGF portrayed her previous BFs as treating her badly and hurting her. Her claim probably is untrue because any guy who would stay in an abusive BPD relationship for four years most likely is a caretaker like you. Those two guys probably were pulling their hair out trying to figure out what they were doing wrong, attempting to make her happy. Like you, they probably were trying to save her from herself and eventually gave up. If you have strong personal boundaries, you will give up too. Like KindMan says, you cannot fix her. She must do that for herself. Meanwhile, she likely is badmouthing them and, if you break off all contact, she probably will be saying the same about you. She won't do it to be mean. Rather, she really believes her allegations because the disorder distorts her perceptions of people's motivations. Yes, BPDs will lie when they get scared. But you will go crazy if you try to tease apart the lies from the distorted perceptions. In any event, the bad treatment by her exBFs is not the cause of BPD. It originates in childhood and thus is firmly entrenched in a person's personality, making it extremely difficult to treat. As someone who really does love and care for her what advice would you recommend? If nothing else I would love to see her get some help, even if "we" never work it out. I am not trying to persuade you that she has strong BPD traits. Rather, I am explaining how her behavior sounds suspicious in an attempt to persuade you to read about BPD and then decide for yourself whether it is applicable. My first recommendation, then, is to read about the BPD traits. This is not rocket science. Once you know what to look for, those traits are pretty easy to spot because all of us have them, albeit at a much reduced level than what BPDs experience. Of the nine traits, the most difficult to relate to is dissociation (or "splitting"). But you can do it, nonetheless. Do you remember that time you were driving and suddenly realized that you could not remember the last ten miles -- not even the intersections? And do you remember the time you went to the refrigerator only to realize, on getting there, you had no idea what it was you were after? Well, those are both instances of dissociation or splitting. What happened was that the conscious part of your mind was dreaming a thousand miles away and another part of your mind was on autopilot -- driving your car and moving your body toward the refrigerator. BPD sufferers do that much more often and more intensely, which is why they sometimes cannot remember events you shared together. Moreover, it largely is the basis for their black-white thinking, which is something you do every time you are startled by truck bearing down on you. In such emergencies, your brain is hard-wired to immediately shift into black-white thinking: jump left or jump right; or fight or flee. Like I said, this is not rocket science. You can understand it. No, you won't be able to determine whether the traits are so severe as to rise to the level of a clinical diagnosis. But you don't need to know that. After all, you've already met a dozen women whom you would not marry because you knew they were too selfish -- and you knew it without being able to diagnose Narcissistic Personality Disorder. If you decide that your ex does have a strong pattern of BPD traits, my second recommendation would be to follow the advice of KindMan and Lilacwine about ending the relationship. As KindMan correctly states, there is a very good chance a woman with strong BPD traits will have a tantrum that ends up with her calling the police and having you arrested. I also agree with KindMan's observation that you are playing with fire to be involved with a coworker who has strong traits of this disorder. When a BPD sufferer splits you black, they don't perceive you as an annoyance or pest but, rather, as Hitler -- and she will treat you accordingly. If you stay in the relationship, at best you will become a "soothing object" as you spend the rest of your life trying to help regulate her erratic emotions. Even if you were married to her (without any children), I would still recommend leaving her unless she (a) recognizes she has BPD, (b) has started a good therapy program like DBT, and (c) is strongly committed to working hard in therapy for many years. Finally, my third suggestion is that you take a hard look at why you were thinking about going back to her after all the verbal abuse she has given you. If you are a caretaking guy like I am, you are a sitting duck for BPD relationships. The danger is that, even though you do not intend to return to your ex, you will find another woman just like her. The problem is not that they seek you out. Rather, you are drawn to them, wanting to be the knight on the white horse -- charging in to save a vulnerable woman from all those mean BFs she talks about (eventually adding your name to the list). It is okay that we caretakers want to help people. What is not okay is that we are willing to do so even when it is to our great detriment. If you are like this, it means you have some codependent aspects to your personality. It also means that your desire to be needed (for what you can do) far exceeds your desire to be loved (for what you already are). For a detailed explanation of that, you may want to take a look at the Schreiber website I mentioned above.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 7 (view)

help me indentify this relationship. Time to move on? Posted: 11/21/2009 1:47:01 PM
She knows I am not but has a hard time with trust, always had had a hard time ... It's borderline obsessive. No, not borderline obsessive. It sounds like borderline period. That is, it sounds like your ex has strong traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Because this disorder is usually caused by abandonment or abuse in childhood, the person is simply incapable of trusting anyone. This means that they will get very jealous of anyone who competes for your attention. This can be your friends and family members. Hence, the problem with the lesbian friend was not the threat of sexual infidelity but, rather, that your friend was competing with your ex for your time and attention. Had a few "minor" arguments that always turn into major fiascos. We would go without speaking for a while, over the littlest of things. Your ex likely has been carrying deep hurt and rage inside her since childhood. You will never know what innocent comment or action will trigger that hurt. When that happens, her mood will turn dark within a minute, perhaps within 10 seconds. What is happening is a protection of her core self that occurs subconciously. What you will see is that she is "splitting" you black, perceiving you as a bad person. You cannot talk your way out of it because she will not believe anything coming out of your mouth. Instead, you must wait for it to blow over. Her intense hatred of you -- if that occurs -- will typically last 5 hours but not more than two days. If you haven't done anything to actually harm her, she may be back to splitting you white within a few days. But you never know for sure. BPD is a thought disorder that causes a person to perceive other people as bad or good, i.e., black or white. They generally do not perceive people as being both because they have great difficulty in integrating their good and bad feelings about people. She said "how dare I after she's letting me back in" blah blah blah Because BPDs dislike themselves and have low self-esteem, the last thing they want is to add one more flaw or mistake to their long list of things they hate about themselves. They therefore will only rarely, if ever, admit to making a mistake. Instead, they will produce the most convoluted explanation of how everything is really your fault. When they are going down that road, it is pointless to try to reason with them because they are experiencing such intense emotions that those feelings -- to them -- constitute their reality. It is untouchable by reason. I can't deal with this yo-yo on and off relationship. One of the hallmarks of the BPD illness is the pushing-away and pulling-you-back behavior you describe. It occurs because BPDs crave intimacy like all of us but, when they get it, it scares them terribly. The reason is that they have little or no sense of who they are and therefore become engulfed by your strong personality when you are intimate with her. That is, she will feel like she is evaporating, losing herself into you. It is a frightening experience. That is why she has to push you away after a wonderful intimate encounter. Typically, the next morning the BPD will create a fight out of nothing just to get breathing space. As you back off to give her space, however, you trigger the other great fear: abandonment. When she fears that, she will switch from pushing you away to trying to reel you back in by acting friendly and seductive. Hence, this is how you get the push-away and pull-back behavior you refer to as a "yo-yo" relationship. Because my ex was like that, I tried to find the safe middle ground where I could avoid triggering either of the two fears. It took me 15 years to learn that there is no middle ground. We click on so many levels and could be a really good fit. Because BPDs have an unstable self image, they don't know how they should behave in various social circumstances. In an effort to fit in, they therefore try to behave like they think the person expects them to behave. That is why they tend to act differently around different people. This behavior is especially intense when they are infatuated with someone. In that case, they will mirror that person's personality and preferences. This means, when you are the object of her affection, you will feel like you have met your "soul mate" because she seems to enjoy everything you do. It's when we are apart it falls apart. BPDs typically have a problem with "object constancy." That is, they have a problem thinking that you are still there for them when you are out of sight. This is because, due to the abandonment or abuse occuring in childhood, their emotional development was frozen at the level of a 4 or 5 year old child. At that young age, all of us have a problem knowing that people still exist when we haven't seen them for a while. This means that, when you are gone, your ex likely has difficulty keeping in touch with her good feelings about you. This is not her fault. It is a disorder that is extremely hard to treat. Should I do all I can to forget about her? Absolutely, if you decide she has strong BPD traits. I say this because the honeymoon period of mirroring lasts only as long as the infatuation with you lasts -- usually a period of 3 to 6 months. Hence, if your ex really does have strong BPD traits, you have been lucky because you've only seen a few months of honeymoon. Things will get much worse. I therefore suggest you read about the nine traits of BPD and decide for yourself if you see a strong pattern of that behavior in your ex. Of course, you won't be able to clinically diagnose BPD. That is the province of trained professionals. Yet, because the nine traits are easy to recognize when you know what to look for, I encourage you to read about them. The best place to start is a short article at BPDfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm. It is the best concise description of what a relationship is like with a person who has high functioning BPD (if she were low functioning, you would never have dated her to begin with). Another excellent description is at curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=780158. For a more detailed explanation, go to Shari Shreiber's website at GettinBetter.com. The behaviorial characteristics you wrote about are reflected in the titles of classic books on this subject: "Stop Walking on Eggshells" and "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me." Plenty of good info about BPD also can be found at BPDCentral.com and bpd411.org -- both of which are targeted at nonBPDs like you and me. Finally, I note that a BPD sufferer can improve if she recognizes she has the disorder and is strongly committed to working for years in a therapy designed to teach her how control and regulate her emotions. It is rare, however, for such a person to be sufficiently self aware to know she has BPD. What usually happens, when you tell them, is that they will project the disorder back onto you and will sincerely believe that you are the one who has it.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 12 (view)

too fast, too soon! Posted: 11/11/2009 8:49:14 PM
We have been together for 5 months and our differences are beginning to emerge. Lakefront, as you found out with your first BPD GF, the honeymoon period of great sex, passion, and mirroring of all your preferences typically lasts about 5 or 6 months. Because your new GF appears to have strong BPD traits, she likely has little or no sense of who she is. Having an unstable self image, she finds that she has no consistent preferences about much of anything. This means she will try out a new hobby and then jump to something different a few weeks or months later. So, although you are now seeing that she does not really like the things you like, you will be very hard pressed to figure out what she does really like. If you give her a present she really wants, for example, she will be thrilled for a few days, maybe two weeks tops. This is because BPD sufferers have an emptiness inside them that you can never fill -- you can never make them happy for more than a few days. That is why you will hear that BPDs are collectors, not doers. She has a very short memory and all the reasons I fell in love with her she has difficulty recalling or has a different opinion. The memory problem likely is due to two things. First, as I explained above, her preferences change frequently, putting her in the embarrassing position of having to explain why she is not using/wearing a gift you bought for her. When BPD sufferers feel trapped in that manner by a mistake they made, they will lie their way out of it because it is too painful to tell the truth. The disorder makes them hate themselves, so the last thing they want to do is add to their list of mistakes and flaws. Second, and more important, BPDs have more frequent memory lapses because they dissociate far more frequently than you do. All people occasionally drift into a mental state called dissociation. You've done it enough that you can readily identify with it. Do you remember that time you were driving and suddenly realized that you could not remember the last ten miles, not even the intersections? And do you remember the time you walked into your kitchen but, on arriving there, could not remember for a minute what it was you had gone in there for? Well, that is dissociation, which occurs when your conscious mind is dreaming a thousand miles away and your subconscious is on autopilot, driving your car and walking your body into the kitchen. Well, BPD sufferers do that much more frequently as a way to escape the emptiness and pain that follows them all day long. So they forget things more often as a result. She has a MA and good job but also has 80,000 of credit card debt. One of the greatest dangers in marrying a BPD sufferer is that she will pull you under financially. As I noted above, she cannot escape her suffering through any real solid interests. So she will obtain some momentary relief with distractions like binge eating, binge spending, or perhaps promiscuity. And, because she cannot tolerate the pain of taking responsibility for her actions, she will create the most convoluted, absurd explanations of how it really all was your fault. My ex, for example, told me for weeks how she desperately wanted a piano so I surprised her one day by purchasing a $3,500 piano. Over the next three years (until I sold it) she played it five times, explaining all the while that she had never wanted me to actually buy it. Now her X is in the picture and he tells her that he still loves her and she lets him walk all over her. As you found out with your first GF, BPDs are very controlling and usually portray themselves as victims of their past BFs. So it seems very unlikely that he is the one who is being abusive. If he is narcissistic, however, she may be willing to put up with it (i.e., being his narcissistic supply) to get the charm and graciousness that a narcissist will provide her in exchange. One part of me feels like she truly loves me and another part fears that she wants ...to use me to pay off her debt Her having strong BPD traits does not mean she cannot love you. Remember, though, that her emotional development is frozen at the level of a young child, which is why she has little ability to regulate her emotions and thus relies on you to do soothing when she is upset. This means that, like a four-year-old, she will split you white or black. That is what kids do. At that young age, they adore daddy when he is meeting their needs and they hate him when he is not. Moreover, the flipping back and forth between adoration and hate means that the kid's perception are distorted by his strong unregulated emotions. Significantly, this means that your GF's perception of you is just as distorted when she is loving and adoring you as when she is being nasty to you. So, yes, she likely does love you but it is a cripled form of love in which much of it is based on her idealized projections and part is based on the real you. The easiest way to describe it, then, is that it is what you experience as infatuation during the first three months of a new affair. And the easiest way to describe her is as a young child with the intelligence of an adult. But not as just ANY young child. Rather, she is like a very angry young child, whose anger can be triggered at any time by some meaningless thing you do or say -- even by the tone of what you say. That is likely what happened when she suddenly insulted you about your beautiful home on the water. It had nothing whatsoever to do with the home. I have become attached to her son. My heart goes out to you, Lakefront. It will be much easier for you to bear the pain of leaving her than leaving the young son. I say this because you are a caregiver type man who, like me, has a strong desire to take care of people, even when it is to your own detriment. Of course, that is why you became a firefighter. And that is precisely why you have been so attracted to two BPD girlfriends in a row -- the very women that other men run screaming from after about six months. The problem is not we like to help people. Instead, it is that our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for whom we already are). At some point in our childhoods, we started thinking that "being needed" is the same thing as "being loved." (If you want to know about that, I will be glad to give you a link to Shari Schreiber's website, where she explains it.) Hence, leaving the woman and her son is something that goes against every fiber of your being, as it is mine. I’m not sure what I should do. Yes, you do. And you knew what to do a year ago when I tried helping you through the BPD relationship you had at that time. You just don't want to go through the pain of letting go. But the longer you delay, the worst the separation pain is going to be, especially with losing the boy. But, hey, you're a fire fighter! You run into burning buildings for God's sake! So you can do this. You can start taking care of yourself so you can stop chasing after emotionally unavailable woman. Indeed, you've already started by making an appointment with a counselor so you can work on the codependent aspects of your personality. Smart move. Very smart move. I've had to work on that very same issue. So I empathize with you and wish you the best.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 13 (view)

Feeling unappreciated... Posted: 10/28/2009 7:14:49 AM
You can say that she grew up too quickly. Yes, she grew up too quickly in the sense that much of her childhood was stolen from her. That is generally true for BPD sufferers, who for that reason often try to recreate their childhood by collecting things like stuffed toys or dolls. Because BPDs have a strong fear of intimacy and abandonment, the toys not only help recreate childhood but also give them something to love that poses no threat of suffocating them with intimacy or abandoning them. Yet, rather than saying she grew up too quickly, it would be more accurate to say that a large part of her (i.e., her emotional development) never grew up at all. Due to the trauma experienced as a young child, she did not have the luxury of experimenting -- as the rest of us could do -- with the more mature methods of defending oneself emotionally. Instead, she held on tight to the defenses we all use as children: magical thinking, splitting (i.e., dissociation), projection, mirroring, and black-white thinking. Hence, she likely has the intellectual skills of an intelligent adult and the emotional development of a four-year-old. All children at that age do lots of splitting, which you see as loving Daddy when he meets the child's needs and hating Daddy when he does not. It therefore is normal behavior for a child to adore you one minute and then be screaming at you a minute later. Your confusion, then, was due to your reasonable expectation that you would not see such childish behavior in an adult. The sad reality, however, is that it occurs in many adults due to childhood trauma and/or heredity. What I am trying to say is that your exGF is not a bad, evil person even though her actions indicate otherwise. Nor is she crazy. Instead, she is a good decent person who is unable to regulate her emotions, causing her to behave almost exactly like you and I behaved when we were four years old. She told me that her first boyfriend was so controlling and abusive. Perhaps so. But remember that people with strong BPD traits are very controlling because their childhoods were so totally out of control. They also are abusive when having a tantrum. Because they have an unstable self identity -- not knowing who they are much of the time -- they are terrified of finding flaws in themselves (i.e., being controlling and abusive) and therefore will project those flaws onto the person closest to them. Don't be surprised, then, if you hear that your exGF is now telling people she had TWO controlling and abusive BFs. She had to go to a psychologist. If a BPD sufferer is self aware enough to realize she has that disorder and is willing to work extremely hard for years to improve, she can eventually break free from much if not most of the disorder. The big problem, however, is that the disorder itself makes it extremely unlikely that such self awareness will occur because it is so frightening and painful, given the absence of a stable self image. I haven't seen any statistics but I would be surprised if one BPD sufferer in a hundred is able to achieve that. Of those that do, a substantial number find their way to BPD websites such as psychforums.com/borderline-personality/ where they describe their constant feeling of emptiness and their day-to-day existence in great detail. Don't go to those websites unless you are prepared to have your heart broken again.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 10 (view)

Feeling unappreciated... Posted: 10/27/2009 5:55:29 PM
Charlie, if your description of your ex is accurate, she may have strong traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). The latest large scale study concludes that nearly 6% of the population would be clinically diagnosed as having BPD. This implies that a larger percentage has BPD traits so strong that you would not want a LTR with them even though the traits are not so severe as to be clinically diagnosed as such. Below, I will briefly describe some traits that may apply to your situation so you can decide whether it is worthwhile to read more about this disorder. She didn't appreciate anything I have done for her. Because BPD sufferers have little ability to regulate their emotions, they experience extremely intense feelings that sweep over them, erasing their awareness of past feelings. Hence, although their feelings are intense, they are "shallow" in the sense that they easily and quickly flip from one extreme (adoring you) to another (hating you). The result is that you can never build up any good will with them that could tide you over during the bad times. Trying to build up good will -- or, as you say, a sense of "appreciation" -- is futile because they are simply incapable of it. Their emotional memory is so short that they cannot appreciate the hundreds of things you have done for them. Instead, they remember (at an emotional level) only what you have done for them in the past week or so. Hence, it's always "What have you done for me lately?" She still doesn't blame herself for what I feel. She tells me that she's not doing anything to me. One of the hallmarks of BPD is the refusal to admit a mistake or take responsibility for one's actions. This occurs because BPD sufferers have little or no sense of who they are. Absent a sense of identity to ground them, they find it too painful and frightening to acknowledge making a mistake. To avoid this pain, they project the flaw or fault onto other people, usually those closest to them. Although BPDs will lie when they are desperate, this projection of blame onto you reduces their pain only if they actually believe it. So, they usually believe the projection even though their allegation makes no sense whatsoever. This is not surprising because, for BPDs, feelings are so strong that they constitute their reality -- the facts be damned. This is why BPD is considered to be a "thought disorder." That is, it is not "craziness" but, rather, a distortion of the person's ability to perceive what your intentions are. At that time, someone hacked into her bank account and she had no money. Yeah, sure. As I noted above, BPDs will lie when they feel desperate. In that situation, they may also try to be manipulative. They generally are not good at manipulation, however, because they are so reactive to whatever emotion is flooding through them at the moment. That is, they tend to go with the flow, not with the plan. When I needed her the most, she blows me off. BPD sufferers are too emotionally unstable for you to be able to rely on them supporting you when you need it. Their inability to trust anyone means you can never convince them of your love. Moreover, you can never really trust a person who is incapable of fully trusting you because they may turn on you at any time. And their black-white thinking means that they can never fully perceive you as a loving person who happens to have a few flaws. Instead, they will tend to flip between idolizing you and demonizing you. I spend my savings to find her a place to live. I was there anytime she wanted me. Charlie, you sound like a generous caregiver. If your exGF has strong BPD traits, however, love and caring will not fix her. On the contrary, loving her will cause her pain as you draw close. It is like trying to heal a burn patient by hugging her. The reason is that her self-image is so weak that she will feel like she is being engulfed or suffocated, losing herself into your own personality. Of course, she won't say that. Rather, she will say you are controlling, which is how she experiences it. Moreover, she has a feeling of emptiness so intense that it is impossible to make her happy for very long. She's not the person I fell in love with. Because they have a very weak ego, BPD sufferers readily adopt the personality and preferences of any person they are strongly attracted to. This behavior is called "mirroring." It is done not out of a desire to deceive but, rather, out of the natural desire to be loved. The result is that, for six months, you mistakenly think you have met your "soul mate." Indeed, it is the closest experience you will ever have to making love to yourself. Moreover, such women are extremely passionate. Consequently, for that six months, the intense experience is better than any romance movie you've ever seen. "Intoxicating" is a word that many other men use to describe the experience. Finally, I note that BPD is usually caused by abuse, molestation, or abandonment experienced in childhood (but a third of cases appear to be caused solely by heredity). This causes the victims to hold onto to their childhood defense mechanisms (e.g., splitting and mirroring) so strongly that they have become emotionally stunted -- unable to adopt the more mature emotional defenses that the rest of us move on to. Hence, they suffer as children and then end up suffering 24/7 the rest of their lives, being unable to sustain close personal relationships. It is important, then, that you and I not add to their suffering. After all, we can walk away from it. They cannot. Charlie, if you would like to read more about BPD, I suggest you start with a short article at http://www.BPDfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm. Classic books on this subject: "Stop Walking on Eggshells" and "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me." Plenty of good info about BPD can be found at BPDCentral.com and bpd411.org. If BPD does not seem applicable, you may want to read about NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder). I hope some of this information will help you reach a better sense of closure.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 126 (view)

separated from bipolar husband Posted: 10/19/2009 5:07:36 PM
SugarMountain, the "mean" you witnessed likely was the result of Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD), not bipolar disorder. Because many people suffer from both of those disorders, the two are frequently confused by the general public. With bipolar, the person sleeps a lot when they are depressed. When they are manic, they are either a lot of fun or very irritable and obnoxious, depending on how manic they are. But their obnoxious behavior is nothing like the meanness occurring with BPD, which is a thought disorder. It causes a person to misinterpret what you are saying or doing to the point that they sometimes consider you to be Hitler and will treat you accordingly. That hostility is exacerbated by their emotional splitting, i.e., seeing only your good points or bad qualities at any point in time. Aside from the level of meanness, there is another way to tell the difference between the two disorders. The bipolar mood swings typically last several weeks (except in rare cases of rapid cycling) because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. In contrast, a BPD mood change typically occurs in minutes (oftentimes in 15 seconds) and is triggered by events (your harmless statements or actions), not by body chemistry. Of course, body chemistry can affect the intensity of BPD tantrums but it does not trigger them. Note that I am not a psychologist. I am saying this based on my experience of living 12 years with my bipolar foster son and 15 years with my BPD ex.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 61 (view)

Still love her! Posted: 10/14/2009 7:43:28 AM
^^^^^ Welcome to the Farceur fan club. He writes insightful gems like that often. You can read some of them by clicking to the left of his post on "History."

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 7 (view)

I'm SO confused! Posted: 10/11/2009 7:04:13 AM
Tam, it sounds like your ex has a personality disorder to have been able to treat you in such a a violent and heartless way. It might be APD or NPD. Yet, given the level of meanness and anger you describe, it sounds more like BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). I therefore suggest that you read about BPD and decide for yourself. The best place to start is a short article at BPDfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm. It is the best concise description of what a relationship is like with a person who has high functioning bpd (if he were low functioning, you would never have dated him to begin with). Another excellent description is at curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=780158. One of the hallmarks of the BPD illness is anger and unprovoked meanness. Another is the pushing-you-away and pulling-you-back behavior you describe. Those characteristics are reflected in the titles of classic books on this subject: "Stop Walking on Eggshells" and "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me." Another hallmark of the disorder is impulsive behavior that is life threatening, e.g., excessive use of alcohol or other drugs. Of course, the website information will not enable you to determine if your ex's BPD traits are so severe that they rise to a level warranting a clinical diagnosis of BPD. Only a trained psychologist can do that. But, to determine whether someone is too selfish to be good marriage material, you don't have to be able to determine whether the selfishness is severe enough to be called Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Likewise, you don't have to be able to clinically diagnose BPD to be able to spot strong traits of it when they occur. Best of luck to you.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 13 (view)

Still love her! Posted: 10/5/2009 4:21:44 PM
Listen to Farceur and Mahogany! Of the many men participating in the PoF forums, they are the wisest and most articulate IMO. Farceur is the master of elegant-speak posts, i.e., sometimes poetic and often bordering on poetic. And Mahogany is the master of plain-speak posts, i.e., painted boldly across your wall with lots of attitude -- as in what part of "nice guy syndrome" don't you understand? Scott, you are very fortunate that, for some reason that escapes me, both of those guys decided to weigh in on this thread to help you out. Consider it a gift of great value. With them at your disposal, you have a real opportunity to extract advice from two men who have been there, done that, and come back to tell the story. If you don't understand what they write, ask them a pointed question referring to what they said. And if you don't agree with what they write, tell them where you think they went wrong. They can handle it. You will not be disappointed.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 7 (view)

broken hearted-too all Posted: 9/19/2009 8:00:38 AM
OP, I agree with Nextyme that you are the caretaker type (as I am) who is attracted to the wounded birds of society needing your help. The problem is not that you want to help people. That is a very desirable trait. Rather, the problem is that your desire to be needed far exceeds your desire to be loved for what you are. That is, your sense of self esteem (like mine) relies too heavily on doing things for people instead of the recognition that you are loveable for what you already are. To get a better understanding of how this occurs in men, please take a look at Shari Shreiber's website at GettinBetter.com/anycost.html. As a therapist, she gives the best explanation I have ever seen as to how some of us learn at a very young age that "love" means we must tend to others' needs even when doing so is to our great detriment. Until you understand the futility of trying to "fix" vulnerable women in a LTR, you will be a sitting duck for women with strong traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). They can spot us caretakers across a crowded room. Indeed, the incredibly mean behavior of your ex-wife is the very type of behavior that a BPD sufferers are capable of -- because their thinking is very black and white, they can easily flip from completely adoring you to hating you. So I recommend that you start taking care of yourself by becoming more self aware.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 13 (view)

help??? Posted: 8/26/2009 9:47:47 PM
OP, the behavior you describe sounds like classic BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). One of the hallmarks of BPD is the pushing-away and pulling-you-back behavior you discuss, e.g., "she would constantly break up with me." Another hallmark is the rapid, unpredictable flipping from one emotional extreme (e.g., adoring you) to its polar opposite (despising you). BPD is usually caused by abuse or other form of abandonment when a child is very young, so it not surprising that your ex "... was molested, raped, and her dad went to prison." If you want to learn more, you can read my other BPD discussions by clicking on my "History" to the left. You can do much better, however, by going to the websites where I found my information. The best place to start is a short article at BPDfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm. It is a concise description of what a relationship is like with a woman having high-functioning BPD. Another excellent description is at curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=780158. Of course, that information will not enable you to determine if your ex's BPD traits are so severe that they rise to a level warranting a clinical diagnosis of BPD. Only a trained psychologist can do that. But, to decide whether someone is too selfish to be good marriage material, you don't have to determine whether the selfishness rises to the level of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Rather, you only have to know what "selfishness" looks like so you can spot it. Similarly, the BPD information can help protect you by describing the traits to look for. QUESTION 1: "Why I am so in love with her?" The short answer is that your desire to be needed far exceeds your desire to be loved. That is, you likely have codependent aspects to your personality, being a caregiver type like I am. The problem is not that we want to help people but, rather, that we are willing to keep doing it when it is to our great detriment. You and I are drawn to wounded birds and we ignore the hoards of men running in the opposite direction. Hence, even if you aren't sucked back into a relationship with your ex (as you say you have been many times), there is substantial risk you will be drawn to another just like her. I therefore urge you to find out why this toxic relationship was so intoxicating and addictive that you were willing to tolerate abuse wherein, as you say, "she would in front of people and her dad call me stupid, I was a piece of shit and so forth." For a detailed technical explanation (the best I've ever seen), go to Shari Shreiber's website at GettinBetter.com/needlove.html. QUESTION 2: "Should I give her a good deal on the truck as I promised?" Losing a little money on a truck is a small price to pay to retain your image of yourself as a man of integrity. If a specific price was not promised, however, your self esteem will not be harmed one iota by some old fashioned negotiation. Keep in mind that, when a woman has strong traits of BPD, her emotional memory is so short that she cannot appreciate anything you have done for her. Instead, she will remember (at an emotional level) only what you have done for her in the past week and it's always "What have you done for me lately?" Hence, if you decide to sell her the truck, do it only for yourself, i.e., to protect your sense of integrity. Do not expect any appreciation from her. She likely is incapable of it. Indeed, she probably feels entitled to receiving a free truck. I wish you the best of luck.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 37 (view)

verbal abuse Posted: 8/3/2009 8:46:28 PM
OP, the push-you-away and pull-you-back behavior you describe is one of the nine traits of an affliction called Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). If your ex does have strong traits of BPD, that push-pull behavior is occurring because she has an extreme fear of both intimacy and abandonment. Hence, when you draw near to her, she feels like she is being engulfed by your strong personality, causing her to push you away in anger. Yet, as you back off to give her the needed space, she becomes very fearful of being abandoned -- as seems to have occurred when "she got scared and begged me not to go." If she has strong BPD traits, a light bulb shoud go off in your head when you read a short article at BPDfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm. It clearly describes what a relationship is like with a person who has high functioning BPD (if she were low-functioning, you likely would not have been dating her). Another excellent description is at curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=780158. In a nutshell, you will find that a woman with strong BPD traits has no stable self-image or ego. Hence, when she is attracted to you, she will mirror your personality, taking on your likes and dislikes -- giving you the impression you have met your "soul mate." That behavior, together with her extremely passionate nature, creates a honeymoon period that lasts until the verbal abuse starts occuring. The abuse is so unpredicatable (being triggered by harmless comments you make) that you feel you are always walking on eggshells. You describe that sort of behavior as a "mood swing." With BPD, however, moods do not "swing" in any meaningful way. That is, the bad moods do not occur with any regularity in response to body chemistry changes (as occurs with bipolar disorder). Instead, a tantrum or bad mood is triggered by an event and then it quickly ends -- usually within 5 hours to a day and a half later. Those characteristics are reflected in the titles of classic books on this subject: "Stop Walking on Eggshells" and "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me." Because such a woman was abused or abandoned in childhood, she has a deep hurt that makes her unhappy and creates a strong need for drama. The result is that, as your relationship progresses, she increasingly resents you due to your inability to fix her and make her happy. Moreover, because her current emotions are so strong that they overwhelm her past emotions, she will have easy access only to her recent feelings. Hence, nothing you do will be appreciated for more than a week or two. Instead, it will always be "what have you done for me lately?" At this point, it is important to recognize that the codependent (i.e., people-pleaser) aspects of your personality may make you a sitting duck for other women with strong BPD traits. There is some danger, then, that you will be sucked into another BPD relationship if you don't take the time to learn how to identify the nine BPD traits, which are explained at the websites cited above. Two other good sites are BPDCentral.com and bpd411.org. Of course, the website information will not enable you to determine if your ex's BPD traits are so severe that they rise to a level warranting a clinical diagnosis of BPD. Only a trained psychologist can make such a diagnosis. But, to determine whether someone is too selfish to be good marriage material, you don't have to be a psychologist who can determine whether the selfishness is severe enough to be called Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Likewise, you can learn to recognize strong BPD traits when they occur. The websites will explain why BPD sufferers are so attractive, why they appear to be your "soul mate," why they are so passionate, why you cannot possibly fix them, why their anger can be triggered in 10 seconds by an idle comment, and why it is unsafe for you to be living with one of them. I wish you the best of luck!

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 20 (view)

Trying to Understand Posted: 7/18/2009 5:39:22 PM
RenaissanceMan and Bicoastal, thanks so much for the kind words. And, RenaissanceMan, thank you for clarifying my statement about the OP being able to walk away from the affliction while her ex cannot. As you correctly point out, "walking away" is exactly what she should have done -- and having done it, she now should not feel guilty but, rather, feel proud of having such strong personal boundaries and a healthy level of self respect. I made the statement only to emphasize that, like the OP, the ex is a victim of the affliction because it is not something of his choosing. Instead, it is a thought disorder that was entrenched in early childhood. Although years of therapy can greatly reduce its severity, very few BPD sufferers are sufficiently self-aware to seek therapy. As I explained above, the very nature of the affliction makes it exceedingly painful for them to tolerate the notion that they have a serious flaw -- much less a flaw that others run screaming from. Thanks, also, for clarifying that BPD sufferers actually crave intimacy, something I neglected to mention when explaining their tremendous fear of intimacy. Like all of us, they have a powerful need to be loved and thus desperately want an intimate relationship. So, as you clearly explain, they "invest a lot of magical thinking into having one." Magical thinking is necessary because, having an unstable self image, they feel engulfed by any lover's strong personality -- feeling that they are merging and disappearing into that other person. Yes, I know -- such a paradox (i.e., craving what you most fear) is difficult to comprehend. But we can often gain some understanding of paradoxes by finding a poetic reference to them using terms and concepts we already understand. Fortunately, Incubus682 provides the needed poetic description in another thread on this Forum. He writes, "When a BPD talks about intimacy, it's like a vampire talking about sunrise: every one of them wants to see one, but they are frightened to because it means death if they do." This is why you correctly caution the OP that she can't fix him and "can't love him enough to overcome his disorder." Yes, trying to help him by loving him is like trying to help a burn patient by hugging him.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 16 (view)

Trying to Understand Posted: 7/18/2009 2:10:56 PM
OP, based on your description, it sounds like your ex's behavior exhibits strong traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). I agree with Bicoastal and RenaisanceMan that we cannot determine whether those traits are so strong as to constitute full-blown BPD. Yet, because you are simply wanting to protect yourself, a clinical diagnosis is not necessary. To decide whether someone is too selfish, for example, you don't have know whether that selfishness rises to the level warranting a clinical diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Similarly, once you understand how to identify BPD traits, you do not need to be a trained therapist to decide whether someone exhibits them too strongly to be a good marriage partner. Because you are "trying to understand" why a man can express "undying love" one minute and then "drastically turn" on you the next, I encourage you to read about BPD. This flipping from one extreme emotion (adoring you) to its polar opposite (hating you) -- within only 15 seconds or less -- is a hallmark of BPD. It occurs because BPD sufferers have an unstable and weak sense of who they are -- and because they have an extreme fear of intimacy and abandonment. This means that, as you drew close, your ex felt he was being suffocated and engulfed by your strong personality. Yet, when you backed off a little to give him space, you triggered his intense fear of abandonment. This likely gave rise to the pushing-away and pulling-you-back behavior you describe. Such behavior is reflected in the titles of classic books on this subject: "Stop Walking on Eggshells" and "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me." Like you, I tried repeatedly to find the middle ground where neither of those fears would be triggered in my ex. Sadly, it took me 16 years to learn that, when BPD traits are strong, there is little or no middle ground. If it exists at all, it can be a knife edge. Because BPD sufferers have a very weak ego, they initially adopt the personality and preferences of any person they are attracted to -- a behavior called "mirroring." Hence, for six months, you will think you have met your "soul mate." That may explain why you intially felt that the two of you "had alot of things in common such as values, morals and things." And, because BPD sufferers tend to be extremely passionate, that honeymoon period likely was better than any romance movie you have ever seen. But then you will pay big time as his idolizing period starts alternating with the periods in which he demonizes you. He cannot avoid doing this because BPD distorts his perception of you. Moreover, BPD renders him unable to trust anyone, which means you can never convince him of your love. This is consistent with your comment that he often acused you of being unfaithful that he "had to have me literally on the phone 24/7 and wanted to know my every move." That inability to trust, combined with his fear of abandonment, can cause him to regard all your friends and family as potential threats to his relationship with you. It therefore is not surprising you say "he wanted me to leave my family." Further, the weak ego makes it scary -- even painful -- for BPD sufferers to admit to making a mistake or having a flaw. They therefore will try to persuade you that every problem is your fault. Their defensive arguments often become so twisted and inconsistent with reality that they have an Alice-in-Wonderland quality to them. But BPD sufferers often are so articulate and skilled in presenting arguments that the non-BPD spouses start questioning their own sanity. This would explain your statement that "this man will make you think he knows Psychology 101 to the point you think you're the one with the problem." With BPD sufferers, emotional memory is so short that they cannot appreciate the hundreds of things you have done for them. Their current emotions are so intense that memories of past emotions seem not to exist. Instead, they remember (at an emotional level) only what you have done for them in the past week or so. Hence, it's always "What have you done for me lately?" This is why you can never build up a lasting reserve of "good will" from which to draw during bad times. If you want to learn more about BPD, you could click on my "History" to the left and read my many posts about this affliction. You would do much better, however, to read what trained therapists have to say. I therefore suggest you start with the short article at BPDfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm. It is the best concise description of what a relationship is like with a person who has high functioning bpd. Another excellent description is at curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=780158. Good information also is provided at BPDCentral.com and BPD411.org. Both sites are targeted at non-BPD spouses and ex-partners like you and me. Finally, I should observe that BPD is almost always caused by molestation or some form of abandonment experienced in childhood. This causes the victim (usually young girls) to hold onto to their childhood defense mechanisms (e.g., splitting and mirroring) so strongly that they become emotionally stunted -- unable to adopt the more mature emotional defenses that the rest of us move on to. Hence, they suffer as children and end up suffering 24/7 the rest of their lives, being unable to sustain close personal relationships. It is important, then, that you and I not add to their suffering. After all, we can walk away from it. They cannot.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 6 (view)

Has this happened to anyone before? Posted: 7/10/2009 6:48:05 PM
OP, based on your short description, it sounds like your ex-GF may have strong traits of an affliction called BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). If so, you can find an excellent answer to the question "if she treated you so bad, why'd you hold on for so long?" The answer is clearly explained at BPDfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm. It clearly describes what a relationship is like with a person who has high functioning BPD. Another excellent description is at curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=780158. In a nutshell, you will find that a woman with strong BPD traits has no stable self-image or ego. Hence, when she is attracted to you, she will mirror your personality, taking on your likes and dislikes -- giving you the impression you have met your "soul mate." That behavior, together with her extremely passionate nature, creates a heavenly honeymoon period lasting about six months, at which point she will begin to "put her guard down," as you say. That is, the verbal abuse starts and it is so unpredicatable (being triggered by harmless comments you make) that you feel you are always walking on eggshells. Because such a woman was abused or abandoned in childhood, she has a deep hurt that makes her unhappy and creates a strong need for drama. The result is that, as your relationship progresses, she increasingly resents you due to your inability to fix her and make her happy. Indeed, nothing you do will be appreciated for more than two weeks. Instead, it will always be "what have you done for me lately?" But, of course, you did not know it was impossible to "fix her." So, after the six-month "honeymoon" ended, you spent another two and one-half years trying to return to that glorious period by making her happy, i.e., fixing her. (Don't feel too bad -- I tried for 16 years, all to no avail.) At this point, it is important to recognize that the codependent (i.e., people-pleaser) aspects of your personality make you a sitting duck for other women with strong BPD traits. Like I said above, the first six months is so passionate it is intoxicating. There is a real danger, then, that you will be sucked into another BPD relationship if you don't take the time to learn how to identify the nine BPD traits. I therefore urge you to explore the websites cited above. Two other good sites are BPDCentral.com and bpd411.org. Best of luck to you!

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 10 (view)

Any thoughts? Posted: 6/17/2009 2:49:21 PM
ForumJunkie states that I should not be diagnosising the OP's ex as suffering from BPD unless I am a licensed psychiatrist. I agree. The issue, however, is not how to diagnose or treat his ex. That is the province of trained professionals. Rather, the issue is whether the OP and most forum readers are sufficiently intelligent that, once they learn to identify the behavioral characteristics of BPD, they will be able to identify a strong pattern of it when it occurs. I believe they are. You don't have to be a fireman -- trained in putting out all types of fires -- to learn it is unsafe to run into burning buildings. Like smoke and flames, the behavioral characteristics of BPD are warning signs that should not be ignored. I believe that even ForumJumkie would agree that, in order to decide whether someone is too selfish to be good marriage material, you don't have to be a therapist trained to determine whether that selfishness rises to the level warranting a clinical diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Similarly, once you understand how to identify BPD traits, you can decide whether someone exhibits them too strongly to be good marriage material. You don't have to determine -- and, indeed, will not be able to determine -- whether those traits are so strong as to warrant a clinical diagnosis of BPD.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 4 (view)

Any thoughts? Posted: 6/17/2009 7:49:16 AM
OP, the behavior you describe sounds like the traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), not narcisissism. In particular, her refusal to accept responsibility for any mistakes, the meaness, and the push-you-away and pull-you-back behavior are hallmarks of BPD-type behavior. If you would like to learn more about BPD relationships -- and why you should avoid one -- I suggest you start with a short article at bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm. It is the best concise description of what a toxic relationship is like with a person suffering from high functioning BPD. Other good websites are BPDCentral.com and BPD411.org. You state that your ex (like her mother) is unhappy. If she is a BPD sufferer, she has been very unhappy since early childhood, at which time the disorder was already fully formed. Unless she recognizes she has the disorder and undertakes several years of intense therapy (a very unlikely scenario), she will remain unhappy for the rest of her life. You cannot fix her or make her happy. If you try, she will forever resent you for failing to do the impossible. As you have already seen a hundred times, she blames all her shortcomings and mistakes on you.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 15 (view)

Please Help Me FIgure It Out Posted: 6/9/2009 6:27:32 AM
OP, you say that the three BPD websites describe "exactly how he acted all the time," with him being "moody and mean and then loving and kind 5 hours to 24 later." If he has strong traits of Borderline Personality Disorder, as you now suspect, then two of your comments seem incorrect. One is your statement that "he planned the break up somehow I think." BPD sufferers can change from loving to mean in just 15 seconds, as seems to have occurred at the restaurant table with you. They don't plan it, however. Rather, they tend to react to what is going on around them. Hence, he likely was triggered by some minor thing you did or said. If it had not occurred then, it likely would have occurred a few days later in response to some other minor comment. The reason is that, with BPD, the person is usually uncomfortable when you are close (i.e., too intimate) or far away (i.e., too likely to abandon him). There is no middle ground. The other questionable statement is your speculation that "he...seems to get off on hurting women." That could be true if he were a sociopath or has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. High-functioning BPD sufferers, however, usually try to be kind and caring and can even make very good nurses. They tend to show their bad side only to a spouse or partner who is intimate enough to pose a threat of abandoning them or suffocating them with intimacy. In mentioning all this, I am NOT trying to encourage you to return to him. Instead, I am simply trying to help you reach "closure" or, as you say, help you "figure it out." Essentially, I am saying it is likely that (a) he loved you to the extent he was capable of it; (b) he did not plan in advance to humiliate you by dumping you in the restaurant; (c) he is truly caring most of the time; and (d) he nonetheless is incapable of sustaining a LTR due to his inability to trust, tolerate intimacy, and handle his fear of abandonment.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 6 (view)

Please Help Me FIgure It Out Posted: 6/7/2009 11:03:30 AM
It sounds like your ex may suffer from a serious personality disorder that causes their spouse or partner to go nearly crazy trying to figure out what they said or did wrong. It is called Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). It usually is due to sustained abuse or trauma experienced in early childhood, which causes the person's defenses (and other emotional characteristics) to be frozen at the level of a young child. The result is that the person typically is warm and affectionate acting when you meet them. That would explain why your ex was "seemingly so nice." Moreover, due to their lack of a stable self image or ego, they will readily adopt the personality and preferences of any person they are attracted to -- so much so that you will feel you have met your "soul mate." That would explain why he quickly "seemed into me," as you say. Also, during the initial honeymoon period, they are extremely passionate -- to the point that you may find the s*x intoxicating and the best you have ever experienced. Another trait of BPD is enormous hurt and anger carried from childhood. That anger is easily triggered by anyone who becomes intimate with him. The trigger, which can be any silly action or meaningless comment, can cause a mood swing from one extreme (adoring you) to the other (hating you) in 15 seconds or less. That would explain why "...he turned on me...FAST!" The hateful, mean moods usually last five hours to maybe a day or two. During that period, the behavior often is cruel, or even sadistic, as you describe. Note that this rapid swing is very different from the gradual mood swings occurring with bipolar disorder. The latter, which is caused by gradual changes in body chemistry, typically causes mood swings lasting several weeks or longer. I mention this because some people suffer from both BPD and bipolar disorder, causing many other people to wrongly believe that bipolar causes the mean behavior. If this love-you and hate-you behavior sounds familiar to you, I suggest that you read the short article at BPDfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm. It is the best concise description of what a relationship is like with a person who has high functioning BPD. Other good information can be found at BPDcentral.com and BPD411.org. I have summarized much of that information in forum posts, which you can access by clicking my "History" on the left. Yet, because I am not a psychologist, you would do better to go the three websites themselves.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 10 (view)

Why? Posted: 5/30/2009 8:06:40 PM
OP, your lady may suffer from a personality disorder that is famous for causing a woman to be very passionate and make you feel like her knight-on-a-white-horse for a short while. Indeed, she will mirror your personality, making you feel like she is your "soul mate" (a term you use). Yet, because she cannot sustain that false image, she will start becoming abusive and will blame every bad thing on you. That usually starts at about six months into the relationship. One of the hallmarks of this disorder is the push-you-away and pull-you-back behavior you describe. Another hallmark is the inability to control emotions, leading to extreme promiscuity or (as in your lady's case) overuse of alcohol or other drugs. The disorder is called BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). If you click to the left on my History, you will find I have written quite a lot about BPD, summarizing information I've found at websites targeted at those of us escaping from BPD relationships. Yet, because I am not a psychologist, you would do much better by going directly to those websites where you will find articles by trained therapists. I suggest you start at BPDfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm which is the best concise description of what a relationship is like with a person who has high functioning BPD. Other good sites are BPDcentral.com and BPD411.org. If your lady does suffer from BPD, a lightbulb likely will go off in your head when you read the short article mentioned above, because you will recognize some of the nine BPD traits as you read about them. With BPD sufferers, their inability to trust anyone means you can never convince them of your love. Because they can never trust you, you will never be able to trust them. Moreover, their emotional memory is so short that they cannot appreciate the hundreds of things you have done for them. Instead, they remember (at an emotional level) only what you have done for them in the past week or so. Hence, it's always "What have you done for me lately?" If your lady has strong BPD traits, you cannot fix her by loving her. On the contrary, loving her will cause her pain as you draw close because she cannot tolerate intimacy. It is like trying to heal a burn patient by hugging her. She will feel like she is being suffocated, losing herself into your own personality. Because you have been returning to her repeatedly despite the abuse, you are a sitting duck for such people. This means that, even if you leave her, there is danger that you will be drawn to another woman just like her. I know because I am drawn to wounded birds/victims too. Like you, I am the caretaker type who feels most valuable when helping other people, even when it is to my own detriment (duh, look what I'm trying to do right now, LOL). That is, we seek out the damaged people and victims of society, the very people that others run screaming from. Therapists would say that we have "codependent" aspects to our personalities. Hence, the websites I mention above provide good information about how to do a better job in establishing personal boundaries that protect you and me. And they will help you understand why you are on a self-destructive course if you return to a BPD-type relationship. Best of luck to you!

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 28 (view)

Some help me make sence of this Posted: 5/26/2009 8:44:30 PM
It doesn't make sense -- we spent nearly a year together, all the things we done, all that time we spent, and she acts like I'm meaningless -- its worse than I thought -- she doesnt care at all about me! Josh, as I explained above (msg. 12 and 17), her behavior makes perfect sense for a person suffering from BPD. In response, you said "she's not a full-blown case of BPD." Well, yes, it likely is high-functioning BPD, not low-functioning BPD. And it may not rise to the level at which a therapist would clinically diagnose it as BPD. Yet, even if she has only "half-blown" BPD traits, she is a very sick young woman who cannot sustain a LTR with you, Jon, or Tom. You complain that she apparently has no appreciation of all the wonderful things you did for her. At an intellectual level, she can remember those things. At an emotional level, however, she has no warm feelings (or sense of appreciation) associated with them. She is capable of only feeling current emotions because, with BPD, emotions are so intense and unconstrained that they push aside any emotional connection with your past good deeds. That is why it is impossible for you to build up any good will with her. Instead, it will always be "what have you done for me lately." Significantly, this is not because she is a "slut and trash" as her family members said. Rather, it is because she experienced trauma or abuse in early childhood and now is very sick. She apparently is incapable of doing very ordinary things (e.g., trusting, tolerating intimacy, tolerating abandonment) that you take for granted. You claim that you "are familiar with BPD." If so, I suggest you greatly increase your familiarity by reading the article I cite above. It explains why this woman's behavior makes perfect sense for any woman afflicted with BPD, whether full- or half-blown, because it greatly distorts her perceptions. Moreover, other information at that website explains why you likely will waste the rest of your life in a futile effort to save her or another just like her -- all the while wailing and complaining about the injustice of her not remembering, much less appreciating, your efforts. Indeed, until you die and leave this world, your credo may remain "It Doesn't Make Sense."

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 17 (view)

Some help me make sence of this Posted: 5/24/2009 12:34:23 PM
Josh, you say you "...keep holding onto those first 4 or 5 months of heaven we shared ... I'd give anything to have them back." If you would spend 15 minutes and read the article I cited above, you would find out that many men spend their lifetimes trying to save a woman suffering from BPD. The objective is to get back the first six months, which is so passionate and romantic that it is intoxicating. Why would it be otherwise? A woman afflicted with BPD has virtually no ego and thus will mirror your personality, claiming to love all the things you love. Moreover, she will convince you that you -- being the big strong man you are -- have ridden in on a white stallion and rescued her from her previous lover who was abusive. Of course, when you become the ex-BF, she will say the same about you to her newest "savior." Because you seem so codependent (i.e., such a doormat), you likely are a sitting duck for such women, as I once was. What is so sad is that you are longing for something that never existed. That is, your ex-GF -- if she has BPD as I suspect -- never loved the real you. Indeed, with that affliction, she would be incapable of loving you. While she can be infatuated with you for a few months, it would be impossible for her to transition to actual love. One reason is that it is impossible for her to see you as a whole person due to the black/white thinking characteristic of BPD. Another reason is that BPD sufferers cannot trust anyone. Because trust is the foundation for all LTRs, attempting it with her would be a fool's errand. What I am saying, Josh, is that your "dream girl" exists only in your imagination. It therefore makes no sense whatsoever to compare any of your future GFs with your ex-GF's ability to create short-lived and false images in your mind. Finally, I observe that you repeatedly ask us to help you "make sense" of this relationship and your ex-GF's strange behavior. Yet, as TashieTash observes, you fully ignore all our advice. At the age of 24, you are too old to be whining on and on about your doomed relationship and how great it was during the short periods that your GF was able to sustain the pretense of loving you. Instead, you should be making a real effort to understand what really happened -- and is still happening -- so you can break away from your own self-destructive pattern of behavior.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 12 (view)

Some help me make sence of this Posted: 5/24/2009 8:54:05 AM
Josh, you write that your ex's "...family is nutty, her mom and dad are divorced, she sees a therapist, and ... she has some issues but god wtf!" Based on your description, her issues may be a cluster of traits called BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Women suffering from that affliction usually cause their BFs or spouses to go nearly crazy trying to figure out what they said or did wrong. I therefore suggest that you read the short article at BPDfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm. It is the best concise description of what a relationship is like with a person who has high functioning BPD. One of the hallmarks of BPD is the pushing-away and pulling-you-back behavior you describe. Hence, it is common for such people to fear intimacy so much that they will push you away. And because they fear abandonment just as much, they will later try to reel you back in. Other traits are self-destructive behavior like extreme promiscuity and the refusal to take responsibility for any of their actions. Moreover, during the first six months or so, they will be extremely passionate and will mirror your personality, making you feel you have met your "soul mate." All that behavior seems consistent with what you describe. Of course, her behavior might be explained by one of the other serious personality disorder like NPD. I mention the personality disorders only because you say you are seeking some understanding of your ex's strange behavior. I am not writing, however, to suggest that you try to "save her," as you apparently have been trying to do. That is an impossible task -- a fool's errand -- because the disorder was fully formed by early childhood and is extremely difficult for her to undo. Indeed, her own father told you that you cannot help. Instead, I am writing to encourage you to reexamine your own behavior: to consider why a 24-year-old man tolerated such abusive behavior for a full year and, for the past two months, has been throwing up food due to the pain of watching his ex self-destruct. It seems that (like me) you have codependent aspects to your personality. This means that your sense of self worth relies too heavily on your efforts to help other people, even when doing so is to your own harm. If so, you are a sitting duck for women like your ex. Hence, even if you do not return to her, there is danger you will be drawn to another just like her and spend your entire life as an abused doormat. You deserve much better than that. I therefore urge you to read about codependence at the website above. Other sites providing good information on codependence are bpdCentral.com and bpd411.org. Best of luck to you, Josh.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 34 (view)

sibling rivery Posted: 5/20/2009 5:11:01 PM
Allison, I would be less concerned about your younger son, who was momentarily enticed, and more concerned about the older one, who likely is codependent as Bicoastal suggests. That means he gets too much of his own sense of self worth from helping others, even when it is to his own detriment, because he otherwise has low self-esteem. That is the only reason he has tolerated the GF's abuse for four years. Consequently, there is considerable risk that he will forgive her of her latest outrage (with his own brother) and resume his well-intentioned goal of "saving her" from herself. Moreover, even if he leaves her, he likely will be attracted to similar women. I therefore suggest that you provide him with information explaining why the woman acts that way and why it is impossible for him to fix or change her. Of course, he won't believe you. And he won't read about it unless you approach him at a low point. But, believe me, with such relationships there will be many low points for him, when he will be confused, sad, and perhaps receptive to information. What he must learn is that his GF has a serious mental disorder that he cannot fix and that she herself likely will never escape from. Given your description, she likely suffers from BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). She exhibts such bad behavior not because she is evil but, rather, because the illness distorts her perceptions. He cannot change that. Moreover, because it is a thought disorder, it cannot be managed with any drug. The good news is that, within an hour or two of reading, he could get a fairly clear understanding of the crazy, perplexing behavior you have observed. The best place to start, I believe, is a short article at bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm. It is the best concise description of what a toxic relationship is like with a person who has high functioning BPD. Other good websites are BPDCentral.com and BPD411.org. In a culture that repeatedly tells him that "love heals all," your son must realize that this is completely untrue with BPD sufferers. Indeed, loving her will increase her pain as he draws very close. It is like trying to heal a burn patient by hugging her. BPD is usually caused by molestation or other extreme trauma experienced in early childhood. This causes the victim (usually young girls) to hold onto to their childhood defense mechanisms (e.g., splitting and mirroring) so strongly that they have become emotionally stunted -- unable to adopt the more mature emotional defenses that the rest of us move on to. Hence, they suffer as children and end up suffering 24/7 the rest of their lives, being unable to sustain close personal relationships. As badly as she treats your son, the GF is much harder on herself. The anger she turns inward is so fierce that she cuts herself -- not to add pain -- but, rather, to get relief from the already unbearable internal pain. It is important, then, that you and your son not add to her suffering. After all, you two can walk away from it. She cannot.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 19 (view)

When she meets someone else Posted: 5/17/2009 4:47:39 PM
OP, it sounds like your ex's behavior exhibits aspects of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). I therefore suggest that you read the short article at http://www.bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm. It describes what a relationship is like with a person having high functioning BPD. A hallmark of BPD is the push-you-away and pull-you-back behavior you describe. BPD sufferers will push you away because they have a strong fear of intimacy. And, ironically, they will pull you back because they have a strong fear of abandonment. Their non-BPD spouses spend the entire marriage trying to find the middle ground where neither of those fears is triggered. Sadly, the middle ground is a knife edge. That is, it takes only a minor comment to cause them to flip from one extreme (adoring you) to the other (devaluing you) -- as may have occurred with your sister's comment. Another trait of BPD is the sufferer's eagerness to almost completely mimic or mirror your personality (and preferences) during the first six months or so of your relationship. This is due to not only their natural desire to please but also to their lack of ego and self esteem. The result of such mirroring is that you would have a strong feeling, as you say you experienced, of having met your "soul mate." Moreover, the lack of ego causes them to "fall in love" extremely quickly -- even, as in your case, when you are seeing each other only twice a month. A third trait is that BPD sufferers tend to have an almost child-like warmth and to be very caring to complete strangers, i.e., to anyone who is not so close to them as to be caable of triggering their twin fears of abandonment and intimacy. Hence, they oftentimes do very well in professions like nursing and social work when the disorder is high functioning. With people very close to them, however, they can be triggered into a bad mood by offhand remarks or minor things you do. Hence, spouses always wonder "what I said wrong." That is why the most popular book on BPD is called "Stop Walking on Eggshells." The irony, then, is that BPD sufferers often will be warm and generous around total strangers and then go home and treat their spouses abusively. If any of this sounds familiar, please read that article. Other good information on BPD is also available at BPD411.org and BPDcentral.com. Of course, that information will not enable you to tell when BPD traits are sufficiently severe to warrant a clinical diagnosis as such. Only trained therapists can do that. But you don't have to be trained to diagnose Narsissistic Personality Disorder to know when a person is too selfish and self centered to be a good candidate for marriage. Likewise, you should be able to recognize most BPD traits after reading about them. Best of luck to you.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 18 (view)

Relationship with someone that suffers from depression Posted: 5/3/2009 8:19:38 PM
OP, I would take Sophie's advice about not returning. Also, please consider whether your ex actually suffers from depression (5% of adults) or, rather, from bipolar illness (1%) or Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD, which is 2% of adults). I mention this because, unless her therapist has spoken candidly with you, you may not know the actual diagnosis. While a person with depression or bipolar disorder typically endures the same mood for weeks or months, a person with BPD may experience intense bouts of anger, depression and anxiety that may last only hours, or at most a day. In light of that difference, your statement that you have "seen more of the mood swings" in recent months is troublesome. This is so because, with bipolar disorder, 80% of adults experience mood swings occurring no more frequently than four times a year. When they occur more frequently than that they are called "radid cycling," affecting less than 20% of people having bipolar disorder. Indeed, it is much less likely to occur once a month (as you seem to imply). That is called "ultra-rapid cycling" for bipolar disorder. As to major depression, it tends to recur half as frequently as bipolar. Hence, the faster her moods are changing, the less likely it is that the cause is bipolar. And it is even less likely (by half) that the cause is major depression (unless you are certain of that being an accurate clinical diagnosis). Instead, the cause may be BPD, a far more serious affliction that is very difficult to treat. Whereas the mood swings caused by bipolar and depression are attributable to slow changes in body chemistry, those caused by BPD are event-triggered. This means they can occur in less than a minute and at unpredictable intervals. And, as I noted above, they tend to last a day or less. Importantly, I am not saying your ex suffers from BPD. Rather, I am saying that, if she does and you have mistaken "depression" for it, you would be running into a burning building -- with your child in tow -- if you were to return to that relationship. Hence, if you feel tempted to do so, please read about BPD on the Internet so you are familiar with the nine traits. A good place to start is http://www.bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm -- an excellent short description of what a relationship is like with a woman who has high-functioning BPD. Other good websites are BPDCentral.com and bpd411.org. You might also try speaking with her therapist if your ex approves. Yet, for reasons I explain in another forum post, the therapist is unlikely to reveal such a diagnosis to her, much less to you, if my 15-year-experience is any guide. I wish the best of luck to all four of you!

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 9 (view)

Life after living with someone who is BPD Posted: 4/30/2009 10:04:44 PM
Deborah, you say that at your age (36) you should have been smarter than to start dating him to begin with. It seems unlikely, however, that age or smarts had anything to do with it. As someone who lived with a BPD sufferer, I can tell you that the first six or nine months was the most romantic part of my entire life. Because the BPD sufferer has little self-identity, he/she will mirror you and all your preferences. You therefore are convinced you have found your "soul mate." And, as you point out, the person is so passionate that sex is incredible -- intoxicating even. That said, you did exercise poor judgement (as I did for many years) in repeatedly going back to an abusive partner. I therefore agree with Comfort's suggestion that you should now focus on your motives for having sustained such a relationship. Until you understand why you kept returning to your ex, there is a danger you will be drawn into another relationship with someone just like him. You also may want to reconsider your belief that your ex is "evil" and that you are "guilty of forgiving someone who should never of had a moment of my time...." I agree with PackageDeal's statement that forgiving is exactly what you should be doing -- not for his benefit but, rather, as a necessary step in healing yourself. In my case, the forgiving process took more than two years. I was able to let go of my anger only because I learned that BPD is an illness that a person suffers from starting in early childhood. In theory, it is treatable. In practice, however, very few high-functioning BPDs ever seek treatment because the very nature of the illness makes them unwilling to acknowledge they have a flaw. I therefore believe that you will be far healthier -- and more compassionate -- when you are able to regard your ex as "sick," not "evil." To accomplish that, I started by reading about BPD on the Internet. That gave me an intellectual understanding of it. But knowing something at an intellectual level is not the same as believing it at a "gut level," i.e., at an emotional level -- which is what is required if you want to get rid of the anger. To do that, I found it helpful to join this forum and keep an eye out for people who seem caught up in BPD-type relationships. I send them links to the Internet sites that helped me the most. I like to think that I am writing primarily to help them but I am also using the writing, as you do, for self-therapy. It helps me understand things at an emotional level that I already understand at an intellectual level. That is, it's my way of having my "adult" speak to the "child" inside me. As a consequence, I really don't know if this message is primarily directed at you or, rather, at my inner child. I am amused by ReadyOrNot's question as to whether BPD sufferers "are better lovers" than non-BPD folks. The answer to that question, I believe, is a resounding "yes" if you are referring only to the six-month honeymoon period. That, at least, is the consensus judgement of the dozen people I have corresponded with following their escapes from a BPD-type relationship. As to your belongings, I would follow CarolAnn's suggestions on the legal steps to take in recovering them if they are very valuable. If not, I would agree with PackageDeal's suggestion that you simply walk away from the belongings to minimize your interaction with your ex.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 18 (view)

Honestly, do you think she will ever come back around? Posted: 4/12/2009 1:44:28 PM
So without a face-to-face comprehensive assessment performed by a skilled clinician it is not possible to draw a credible conclusions about any person's specific psychopathology. The issue is not how to diagnose the OP's ex. As you say, that is the province of trained professionals. Rather, the issue is whether the OP is sufficiently intelligent that, once he learns to identify the nine behavioral characteristics of BPD, he will be able to identify a strong pattern of BPD when it occurs. I believe he is. You don't have to be a fireman -- trained in putting out all types of fires -- to learn it is unsafe to run into burning buildings. Like smoke and flames, the behavioral characteristics of BPD are warning signs that should not be ignored. Moreover, there is little chance that the OP could obtain such information from a "skilled clinician" who is treating the ex. For one thing, the very nature of BPD makes it highly unlikely that the ex will ever seek treatment. Even if she did, ethics would prevent the clinician from telling the OP her diagnosis. Indeed, if my 15 year experience with psychologists is any indication, the clinician likely will not even tell her. One reason is that high-functioning BPD sufferers are such good actors that they often can hide their illness from the less experienced clinicians. Another reason is that BPD sufferers tend not to return to therapy when given such a diagnosis -- hence the clinician will only say "I don't believe in labels" when asked for a diagnosis. When forced to call it something, clinicians seem most likely to call it "PTSD" because insurance companies cover that but often refuse to cover BPD, claiming (falsely) that it is untreatable. Regardless of whether or not she is BPD, it really does not matter! I believe it matters a great deal. The underlying question here is whether the OP is a selfish insensitive man who always says the wrong thing (as his ex claims) or, instead, a man who has willingly put up with abusive treatment for five months and still wants her back. Granted, I do not know the correct answer to that question. But the OP may be able to easily answer that question when, armed with information about BPD, he decides whether her behavior strongly exhibits many aspects of BPD. If he decides that it does, he must confront the fact that he has been tolerating abusive treatment that causes healthier men to run screaming in the opposite direction. That is, he likely has codependent aspects to his personality that may make him a sitting duck for wounded birds and all women suffering from BPD. In that event, the danger is that he will seek out another woman just like his ex. My objective, then, is to give him the tools with which to be sufficiently self reflective to figure out the correct answer.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 14 (view)

Honestly, do you think she will ever come back around? Posted: 4/12/2009 8:54:03 AM
OP, you state "I wasn't aware of ANY of the bad things I was doing in this past relationship." You also state that you never knew what small comment would send her into a rage or temper tantrum. In my experience, when a 30 year-old man is utterly confused as to why his words are frequently misinterpreted and his well-intended actions are backfiring, he likely has been sucked into a BPD-type relationship. A hallmark of BPD is the partner's feeling that he is always walking on eggshells. I therefore suggest that you read about BPD and determine, for yourself, if your ex likely exibits strong BPD aspects to her personality. To avoid repeating what I have written elsewhere on this forum, I sent you a private message explaining why BPD may be pertinent here and where to obtain information. If BPD does apply, the mistake that you keep repeating is not, as you suspect, what you say to your ex. Rather, the mistake is your repeated decision to keep putting up with her abusive treatment of you.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 27 (view)

Picking up the pieces... Posted: 4/11/2009 11:31:36 PM
OP, I am glad you found the BPD websites helpful. I caution, however, that we will never know if your ex's BPD traits are sufficiently strong that a psychologist actually would give that label to his behavior. Diagnosis must remain the province of professionals. Yet, by learning what the nine traits of the illness are, you have greatly strengthened your ability to determine whether his behavior exhibits BPD traits so strongly that he would be a poor choice for a LTR. Another caution I should make is that, because you chose to return to your ex "at least five times" over six years, you likely have aspects of codependence in your personality (as I do) and thus derive too much of your sense of self value from your efforts to help others, even to your own detriment. If so, then you are a sitting duck for BPD-type personalities. Hence, even if you don't return to your ex, you are in danger of being drawn to another man just like him. For that reason, the BPD websites you visited will offer advice on how to strengthen your personal boundaries and reduce your codependent traits. In other posts here at PoF, I explain why BPD-type relationships typically last either 18 months or 15 years. If you would like to read that post, simply click on my "History" to the left and under my name. I mention it only because you may have been headed for the 15 years, as was the case for me.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 25 (view)

Picking up the pieces... Posted: 4/11/2009 5:25:17 PM
OP, you say your ex has depression and may be bipolar. If his mood swings shift gradually, last a couple of weeks and come in cycles, you may be right. If his mood swings occur in a only a minute, however, they likely are event triggered. That could indicate he suffers to some extent from BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) in addition to his depression or bipolar problem. BPD sufferers are so easily triggered into anger that their partners feel they are always at risk of saying the wrong thing. This would explain why you write "I feel like walking on eggshells." Indeed, the most famous book on BPD is titled "Stop Walking on Eggshells." BPD also would explain his repeated push-you-away and pull-you-back behavior. Further, BPD is consistent with your comments that he emotionally seems child like and that, when he wants to reel you back in, he is so charismatic you simply melt. Due to their child-like emotional immaturity, BPD sufferers often are extremely charismatic and passionate -- which is one strong reason that people are so attracted to them and are willing to go back. To determine whether BPD is relevant in your situation, you may want to start with the short article at http://www.bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm. It is the best concise description of what a relationship is like with a person who has high functioning BPD. Other good sites are BPDCentral.com and bpd411.org.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 55 (view)

How can someone just give up on a good thing without reason? Posted: 4/8/2009 6:11:11 AM
This thread is now so long that, for the benefit of new readers, we should note that Lil Brooker apparently answered the OP's question back on March 31 -- less than two hours after he asked it. Specifically, she explained (msg. 20) that the behavior of the OP's ex exhibits the classic traits of Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). On that same date, the OP wrote (msg. 25) "I want to thank all who shared insight with me...but Lil Brooker I could hug you right now." The OP explained that an article on BPD "seems to say exactly what happened with the exception of the last part about rage." Moreover, the OP said that his ex had suffered "a tramatic life including much abandonment" in her childhood. This observation is significant because fear of abandonment is a hallmark of BPD, as SleepingBeauty and VerityOne seem to recognize above when agreeing with Lil. Since March 31, many interesting stories and insightful comments have been added. I do not intend to detract from any of them. Rather, I am simply observing that Lil Brooker hit the nail on the head. And, given that the OP has not posted here since that date, it appears that her advice went a long way to alieviating his anguish and confusion -- the typical condition in which we find people who are breaking free from a BPD-type relationship.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 191 (view)

BPD - What would you do? Posted: 3/28/2009 9:04:18 AM
Incubus682, welcome to the PoF forums. I was so blown away by what you wrote above that I clicked, to the left, on your "History" -- where I was able to read everything you have written here on BPD. I am amazed by your way with words, i.e., your ability to articulate how BPD feels and explain what motivates your behavior. After having lived with a BPD woman for 15 years, I addressed my confusion by reading as much as I could about this affliction over the past two years. Even with that background, however, I find that you clarified several important concepts for me, as Quazi100 has also done so well. Indeed, some of your explanations are poetic, making them easier to understand and remember. The teddy bear analogy, for example, is both delightful and insightful. But my favorite, by far, is your statement that "when a BPD talks about intimacy, it's like a vampire talking about sunrise: every one of them wants to see one, but they are frightened to because it means death if they do." Thanks for giving us such insights on this illness. Please continue doing so.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 138 (view)

BPD - What would you do? Posted: 3/6/2009 6:51:17 AM
I grew up with an abusive step-father with Borderline, and I watched my mother struggle for fifteen years to separate herself from him Lonestar, like your mother, it took me 15 years to get free ... or, more accurately, to be dumped. I mention this because, at one of the websites I cite above, a therapist reports that BPD relationships typically last either 18 months or 15 years. They last only 18 months, he says, when the non-BPD person has strong personal boundaries. After the 6 month honeymoon period ends and the rages start, these healthy individuals will not put up with the intermittant rages for more than a year. They decide that the great make-up sex and adoration periods are simply not worth the drama. The remaining people, he says, tend to hang on for 15 years because they do not have strong personal boundaries and thus are willing to sacrifice themselves in a doomed effort to save their sick spouse. Even after 15 years, he says, they usually do not abandon the loved one. Rather, the sick spouses abandon them. At that point, the marriage is in a shambles, causing the sick spouse's fear of abandonment to grow so severe that she/he terminates the marriage to end the pain. If the BPD sufferer is the wife, she typically will have the husband arrested, claiming he is violent. She then obtains a protection order banning him from his own home. This gets him out of the house, enables her to live rent free until the divorce is finalized, and gives her more leverage when negotiating a financial settlement or (with kids) visitation rights.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 137 (view)

BPD - What would you do? Posted: 3/6/2009 6:17:37 AM
Yes, you would date someone with BPD, if you knew nothing about BPD. The initial stages are intoxicating. You will be loved and adored like never before. That certainly was my experience, Lil Brooker. Until a person has experienced it personally, it is hard to imagine how wonderful and romantic the first six months of a BPD relationship will be. BPD sufferers are such passionate lovers because, unlike the rest of us, they are not encumbered by mixed feelings. Instead, they experience unmitigated joy when they are around you. If you have difficulty imagining this, just think about how your four-year-old daughter or niece acted when she saw you walking through the front door. Remember those outstretched arms, that warmth of expression, the glorious smile, and the unadulterated glee? Heaven, pure heaven! Conversely, to get an idea of what a BPD relationship is like at the end of six months, think about her behavior when you took away her toys and sent her to bed.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 129 (view)

BPD - What would you do? Posted: 3/5/2009 8:35:36 AM
The Biggest Lie I think I've read in these forums is the one that suggests "All" people who Share a condition, ailment, disorder or gender for that matter are somehow 'the same'! While there may be certain characteristics that are Common to the BPD (Disorder), No 2 people are the same. Period. Apparently, I am the Biggest Liar to whom A.S.is is referring. My point above is not that all BPD sufferers are all the same. Rather, I am saying that there are nine well-known behavioral characteristics associated with the illness. These characteristics (e.g., black-white thinking, raging, mirroring) are easily learned by going to sites such as bpd411.org and bpdcentral.com. Any adult entering the dating scene should learn these characteristics so they can look for the warning signs when and if they occur. This is not rocket science. Moreover, being informed is being prudent, not "paranoid" as A.S.is suggests. Too often BPD is improperly diagnosed = just because someone has a period of emotional upset/mood swings The issue is not how to diagnose or treat the BPD sufferer. That is the province of trained professionals. Rather, the issue is whether most forum readers are sufficiently intelligent that, once they learn to identify the behavioral characteristics of BPD, they will be able to identify a strong pattern of BPD. I believe they are. You don't have to be a fireman -- trained in putting out all types of fires -- to learn it is unsafe to run into burning buildings. Like smoke and flames, the behavioral characteristics of BPD are warning signs that should not be ignored. Sure there are pills for BPD - in far too many cases those pills are NOT the answer.... No, BPD cannot be directly treated with pills. Like Setea, you may be confusing BPD with bipolar disorder, which is often treated successfully with pills because it is a mood disorder caused by changes in body chemistry. However, BPD is not a mood disorder but, rather, a personality disorder. The mood changes associated with bipolar are typically rather gradual and last for about two weeks. In contrast, the mood changes associated with BPD typically occur in a minute or two and last only about five hours. Hence, the basic difference is that bipolar mood changes are body-chemistry-triggered and BPD mood changes are event-triggered. A LOT of manipulators, haters, control freaks etc. will choose to Label those they cannot control or change. BPD is just another label that is far too often misused. Yes, the knowledge available on BPD websites will be misused by manipulators and haters. But that is no reason to avoid knowledge. Nor is it a good reason to attack those of us, on this site, who are trying to clearly describe the illness so readers can avoid becoming enmeshed in a BPD-type relationship.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 125 (view)

BPD - What would you do? Posted: 3/5/2009 6:41:56 AM
My experience with BPD sufferers is far different from that of Liliginger. She writes: Meeting someone with BPD is just that...one person with BPD. We cannot generalize this disorder. Actually, we can. While it it is true they can be generous and warm to strangers and casual friends, they are incapable of sustaining a close long term relationship. The verbal abuse (and sometimes physical abuse) is unavoidable and will occur frequently, usually without warning. By "without warning" I mean the person can transform from extremely loving to intense hatred within 15 seconds. People with BPD are like everyone else--in the sense that they are in fact unique. They can be ... very smart, insomniacs, good parents.... Well, yes, they may be smart and have trouble sleeping. At a dating forum like this, however, the real issue is whether they can sustain long term relationships. Sadly, the answer is no. And, no, they generally cannot be good parents. They can be ... fair, trustworthy, etc... No. People suffering from BPD have such a weak ego, and such a low opinion of themselves, that they cannot tolerate the thought of being wrong. Hence, they blame their spouses for everything that goes wrong. Moreover, because their emotions are so intense, they have great difficulty getting in touch with the good feelings associated with your past deeds. That is, as a spouse, you get no credit for all of the hundreds of sacrifices you made over many years. This is why you cannot build up any good will with a BPD spouse. And this is why BPD sufferers cannot be regarded as "fair" in any meaningful sense. Nor can they be considered "trustworthy." You cannot trust a person who, due to the BPD affliction, is incapable of trusting you. They can turn on you with a vengence at any time. Ironically, when symptoms emerge, and the SO starts to pull away, the person with BPD can start feeling full blown symptoms triggered by the abandonment (real or imagined). I agree. It is important to note, however, that the rages are inevitable regardless of whether the SO pulls away. The BPD sufferer moves from one extreme feeling to another, flipping between the polar opposites. The person thus feels abandoned when the SO pulls away and suffocated when the SO draws close. Significantly, there is no safe middle ground. None. Nada -- unless the SO somehow figures out how to spend a lifetime standing on the moving knife edge that separates "too much" from "too little." Cognitive Behaviour Therapy works well to help the overwhelming feelings. The problem is that the very nature of BPD disorder -- which renders a person so insecure that they are terrified of admiting they have a flaw -- prevents most of them from ever seeking treatment. The ones most likely to do so are those who are "low functioning" and thus are suffering the most. However, the "high functioning" people -- those you are most likely to encounter in a dating situation -- are extremely resistent to the idea of being treated. But, yes, CBT will help them in the very unlikely event they admit to having a problem and seek treatment for it.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 14 (view)

Emotional claustrophobia - is there such a thing? Is it an attachment disorder of sorts? Posted: 2/28/2009 11:49:27 AM
I would be interested in what people think would heal this inability to put faith in relationships or inability to trust. My guess would be it would have to be someone trustworthy and patient ... Being trusting and patient may work with someone hurting from a recent divorce or breakup, assuming you have given that person six months to start healing on their own. There is little chance of it working, however, with someone whose lack of trust was firmly entrenched in early childhood by abuse, trauma or genetics. This harsh reality needs to be stated loudly and frequently for the benefit of the world's caretakers -- those like me who have co-dependent aspects to their personalities and grew up believing that love and patience heals all. They will be drawn, like moths to a flame, over and over again to society's wounded birds, those suffering from serious personality disorders. The issues raised by the OP -- lack of trust and inability to remain connected -- are two of the hallmarks of a Borderline Personality Disorder. Although only 2-3 percent of the population has that disorder so severely that a BPD diagnosis is warranted, I suspect that a much larger percent exhibits sufficient aspects of the disorder to make them a poor choice for long term relationships. One reason is that efforts to help such a person by loving her tend to be ineffective. Because she flips back and forth between the polar opposites of emotions, she experiences your love as either suffocating or abandoning. That is, when you increase affection a little, she feels suffocated and controled. Hence, trying to heal a BPD sufferer with love is like trying to heal a burn victim with hugs. Alternatively, when you reduce affection a little, she feels abandonment. Significantly, the middle ground between those extremes may never exist. I know because, like Goldilocks, I tried to find "just right" for 16 years. I eventually realized that, for my ex, the middle ground is a continually moving knife edge. Another reason is that you can never win her trust. As Kindredpage explains so well above, trust must be the "cornerstone for any serious relationship." The usual ways of winning it (e.g., showing affection, telling the truth, being faithful, and sending her kids to college) are ineffective with BPD sufferers. The problem is not that she cannot remember such actions. Rather, the problem is that her day to day emotions are so intense they block out the good feelings that once were attached to those actions. Hence, you never build up a reserve of good will. Rather, you always get "what have you done for me lately?" As I read forum posts, I keep a watchful eye out for folks who seem caught up in relationships with strong aspects of BPD behavior. I send them links to three websites identifying BPD "red flags" and explaining how to establish healthy personal boundaries. The sites are BPDfamily.com, BPDcentral.com, and BPD411.org. Of course, the treatment and diagnosis of BPD is the province of trained professionals. But you don't have to be a fireman, trained in putting out all types of fires, to learn it is unsafe to run into burning buildings. Like smoke and fire, the warning signs of BPD should be easily comprehended by most adults when they have a good source of information. Another thing easy to comprehend is that, although BPD sufferers sometimes exhibit very bad behavior, they are not bad people. The illness distorts their perceptions, causing them to suffer 24/7 throughout their lifetimes. We therefore should take care not to add to their suffering. We can walk away from it. They cannot.

DowntownDC

Joined: 8/2/2008

Msg: 11 (view)

Need an opinion. BAD!! Preferrably Women, but all welcome!!! Thanks!! Posted: 1/31/2009 8:48:53 AM
OP, if your description of your ex is accurate, she is not "psycho" or "crazy" as you suspect. Rather, she likely has a personality disorder. Based on your description, it likely is BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Normal people are incapable of acting in such a cruel manner. That is, she exhibts bad behavior not because she is a bad person but, rather, because she has an affliction that distorts her perceptions. The good news is that, within the next hour or two, you should have a fairly clear understanding of all the perplexing behavior you observed. The best place to start is a short article that likely will be so eye-opening that you are going to feel like you have walked out of a cave into the light for the first time in seven years. It is at http://www.bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm It is the best concise description of what a relationship is like with a person who has high functioning BPD (if she were low functioning, you would never have dated her to begin with). One of the hallmarks of BPD is the pushing-away and pulling-you-back behavior you describe. Hence, it is common for BPD sufferers to fear abandonment so much that they will preemptively abandon you first, later trying to reel you back in. Those characteristics are reflected in the titles of classic books on this subject: "Stop Walking on Eggshells" and "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me." Plenty of good info about BPD can be found at BPDCentral.com and bpd411.org. Both sites are targeted at ex-spouses and ex-partners (like you and me) of women suffering from BPD. If you find that this information hits the nail on the head, do not to go back to her. The woman's fear of abandonment will grow to the point that she will undermine the relationship to stop the pain. For bpd sufferers, their inability to trust anyone means you can never convince them of your love. And their black-white thinking means that they can never fully perceive you as a loving person who happens to have a few flaws. That is, they do not deal well with grey concepts. Moreover, their emotional memory is so short that they cannot appreciate the hundreds of things you have done for them. Instead, they remember (at an emotional level) only what you have done for them in the past week or so. Hence, it's always "What have you done for me lately?" Loving her will not fix her. On the contrary, loving her will cause her pain as you draw close. It is like trying to heal a burn patient by hugging her. The reason is that her ego and self-image is so weak that she will feel like she is being suffocated, losing herself into your own personality. Of course, she won't say that. Rather, she will say you are controlling, which is how she experiences it. Although low functioning bpds can get better through heroic treatment efforts, the high functioning bpds (as your ex may be) do not seem to get any better no matter what the treatment (except that the illness mellows somewhat in the 30's and 40's due to the aging process). I spent a small fortune on my ex for 15 years of treatment, to no avail. Actually, high functioning bpds can make very good casual friends because they often have a child-like warmth and affection to their personalities that makes them immediately likeable. They cannot sustain close personal relationships like a marriage, however. And, because they will never trust you, you can never really trust them. Ironically, then, they tend to be extremely warm and kind to total strangers while treating their spouse/boyfriend with contempt. This is why, after you break up with them, you likely will lose all your mutual friends. They have never seen the outpouring of hatred you have subjected to. So, when your ex turns against you with a vengence, your friends likely will believe all her allegations. Because you may be a sitting duck for such people, there is danger that you will be drawn to another woman just like your ex. I know because I am drawn to wounded birds/victims too. I am the caretaker type who feels most valuable when helping other people (duh, look what I'm trying to do right now, LOL). Hence, I seek out the damaged people and victims of society, the very people that others run screaming from. In my case, I had to grow up too quickly because my dad was alcoholic and my mom therefore treated me as the "little man" of the household. If you are like that too, therapists would say that you have "codependent" aspects to your personality. Hence, the two websites I mention above provide good information about how to do a better job in establishing personal boundaries that protect you. Let me guess: you believe you were an idiot to fall for such a woman? No, not true. Because they have a very weak ego, they readily adopt the personality and preferences of any man they are attracted to. This behavior is called "mirroring." Hence, for six months, you mistakenly thought you had met your "soul mate." Indeed, it was the closest experience you will ever have to making love to yourself. Moreover, such women are extremely passionate. Consequently, for that six months, the intense experience was better than any romance movie you had ever seen. "Intoxicating" is a word that many other men use to describe the experience. Finally, I note that BPD is almost always caused by molestation or some other extreme abuse experienced in childhood. This causes the victim (almost always a young girl) to hold onto to their childhood defense mechanisms (e.g., splitting and mirroring) so strongly that they have become emotionally stunted -- unable to adopt the more mature emotional defenses that the rest of us move on to. Hence, they suffer as children and then end up suffering 24/7 the rest of their lives, being unable to sustain close personal relationships. It is important, then, that you and I not add to their suffering. After all, we can walk away from it. They cannot.

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