First off, why is there fiction?

Second, you would be wrong to assume that these man are insecure. I am secure enough to know that I don't like this posturing, and don't put up with it. My opinion is based on experience and lots of observation.

What i'm wondering is why all you women feel this need to put it out there. Insecurity?

I don't go around trying to prove to everyone that i'm a man.

We all know that when men do this, the guy has issues.

And, i'm sure all but a few impressionable women would avoid these guys. So, now, when men question, or avoid women who do this same type of posturing, you say WE are insecure? Do you not see something wrong with this picture?

And one other point: It helps to be at least passably attractive. Try doing this if you are too old, too fat, too short, too poor, too "odd", etc., and let me know how well it works. I will be expecting a full report.

So taking all this information, I gather this...

You probably shouldn't approach any women you find attractive in any setting, because you are not going to be given the benefit of the doubt.

UNLESS, you do so in a manner that doesn't come off as needy or make you look like you have an agenda.

EVEN THOUGH (this hasn't been mentioned) the very act of saying anything to a lady, or just being at a singles event in general, could come off as having an agenda.

I get this whole 'confidence' concept, but its hard for me to be confident if its a damned if you do damned if you don't situation.

The very least, I'd like to know why you ladies run away with your mace out after I say hello so I don't make the same mistake twice. Even then, seeing that every woman is different, what may be 'right' to one girl, may be wrong to the next.
That is the gist of it.

That's the point, though. People who truly *are* independent smply don't feel the need to say so. They just know it and it comes across to others. People who feel the need to talk incessantly about how independent they are really are just trying to mask some pretty deep-seated insecurities.

tuffLuv1984 and WomanInProgress, all I can say is that you two just don't get it. You both come off as ice princesses.

Look, we get it what you want, but you still are not talking to us men. You keep talking to each other.

What's worse, you keep talking this "tuff sheeit" stuff, and it shows a certain rigidity and emotional coldness that is a complete turn-off. When we see this, we see angry women. We hear women who put on such a tuff attitude that they screw themselves out of finding that "something they didn't know they needed". You have judged all men and have your minds made up. If that's the kind of message you want to put out there, all you're going to get are a-holes, and guys who watch "Sex In The City".

Tear down your damn walls, put away the guns, and show what you really are. All I read in your last posts is posturing. Lots of great men out there are not going to jump through your hoops. That crap is for teenagers.

But be honest, sometimes do ya just wanna stay home instead....watch a movie and clean out your sock drawer ?

A final opinion: I’m fine with someone not needing a man in her life, not so fine with my “gf/so/wife” not needing me in her life. Timing is everything. As for those who wonder why someone is on a dating site who doesn’t need a man, I go shopping at Lowe’s when I don’t need anything, but sometimes I find something I want; sometimes after having it for a while I wonder how I ever got along without it!

Don't agree with the above, it's too much of a generalisation, it depends on the man in question.

You guys need to make up your effin' minds....

If we expect you to do something like pay for dinner or hold open car doors... we are 'golddiggers'.

If on the other hand we are independant... we are rigid 'ice queens'.

Don't cry ... "Oh, oh no, she is not emotional available!" When in fact, you 1.) Probably couldn't handle her true emotions, not the sanitized ones in your fantasies and 2.) You make a big deal about women being too emotional all the time. Well, here... you have a less emotional woman... oh, what, now you don't like that?

Maybe you missunderstood. The statement did not refer to women who are pregnant and it is most certainly not releted to the use or lack of protection. The statement refers to women who have not achieved pregnancy yet use this litte threat as a mean to punish or catch a man's attentionn (usually occurs at the end of the relationship). The mere existence of such threats or false claim, and I am sure I am not the only man who has heard this song and dance, is a direct reflection of how women understand the power that can be wielded in the name of pregnancy.

i don't believe anybody is "meant" to be alone...
i also don't believe anybody is "meant" to be together.
it's all just bullshit designed to self-validate whatever you're already thinking anyway.

yes it can be frustrating to want something that you can't have...
but that frustration is self-imposed as well....
because it's a huge waste of time to be frustrated by something you can't directly control.

i say focus on what you can control... learn how to get better at that... and continue to create potential opportunities for yourself (e.g. POF profile or otherwise "getting out there" IRL), and quit worrying about the results.

what I have found is that when I actively seek a mate/partner/boyfriend... that is when I usually attract the losers because, IMO, when I am actively looking then I think that is a bit desperate on my part and men can sense that.

Now, I focus on me and my child. get a hobby, do what you want to do and love will find you :)

If you talk to people just to be polite then approaching women is not a big deal.

It's easy to talk to people if you don't have an agenda.

Don't even stress about approaching a woman because ultimately you really don't know if she's worth your time in the first place.

So what, she's attractive ... does that make her a better human being?

We are in a different society than what was here previously. In my parent's day, most people married people from their neighborhood and married for life. Today, we don't have the old style neighborhoods. I think the ability to meet people on the fly is even more important than ever.

People differ in their ability to strike up conversations. However, every single time you do it and you reflect on it later, you improve. The key points are

- the tone of your voice.
- eye contact
- body language
- personal space
- Approach with the respect you would want someone to show your daughter or sister
- content

OK, I have some advantages.

We just want someone with the same interests so we don't get the constant ****ing every time we want a little recreation. There are women out there like this but they are rare.

There's the old "indirect" method of just starting a casual friendly conversation and then trying to turn it into something more. Little hints, subtle flirtations...blah. I don't like that personally...it risks demonstrating a lack of confidence...especially if she can tell (and girls often can) that you're attracted to her and you're just to chicken to be upfront about your intentions. And with the whole "pua" thing being so mainstream, it can come across as lame...like you're trying to use "pick up techniques" to make her like you or whatever.

It's true that if you're more upfront, it forces her to make a decision before she has enough information to decide if she's interested...or is it? Within 30 seconds, my goal is not to make her decide she likes me, it's to make her so curious about me that she has to take the time to find out. The more she knows about you, the less mysterious you are, and the less need she feels to find out what you're about (in her mind at least, she's already figured you out).

At least in the context of a loving relationship, Women need MEN as much as they need WOMEN. Lets us not keep kidding ourselves otherwise.

Thanks for the flippant attitude to a human rights issue.

Just like I say if a woman doesn't understand that semen in her stomach prevents her from being pregnant, she should just stop whining about "biological differences" and deal with her OWN ignorance and refusal to avoid pregnancy to herself.

That's exactly why I don't give a sh1t about women's' "feelings", who walk around with a sense of entitlement. I have only one use for them.

Women have an ability to absolve parental ability AFTER pregnancy, while men have no such ability, and the unilateral decision of the woman can impose her decision on the man.

This inequity is what myself, verity and others are against.

I agree with his advice (and yours), also. A female friend of mine told me a while ago that women don't like to be hit on. She then followed it up with, "respectfully conveying an interest in someone is NOT hitting on them. There's a difference."

It's kind of a bizarre conundrum... hitting on someone without hitting on them? That's crazy-talk! But if you can figure out the difference, your chances increase tenfold.

Where are you getting the impression I "want" anything from women? Or want anything more than to challenge people in an open forum?
Why are you questioning my reasons for posting?

I don't "want" anything from this thread.
What I'd "like" to see, is a whole lot more objectivity. That would be a start.

Which would help all of us in getting along better.

What I'd like to see is men have the option to opt out of the financial obligation of an unwanted consequence, due to someone else's will being forced onto them.

It's been said, over and over, and over, and over in this thread.
Don't hold men to a standard that women are exempt from.

Understand here I am not advocating or promoting casual sex, promiscuity, totally "no strings sex" liasons...but suggesting that people might want to really try to understand that in FwB, the very first word in that description is 'friend.

Curious...how come he is allowed to post 4 in a row...and 5 within 10 posts?

I don't look for nothing but I do think it will be Respectfull to say Thank you no matter what it is from holding a door to saying thats a nice shirt/blouse you are wearing. And if someone hold a door or give me a compliment I will say Thank You and thats just being Respectfull thats all nothing more. Just like I looked at your profile womaninprogress and no I didn't read but I will say this you have very good pictures of yourself and a pretty smile. But no I don't expect you to say anything but at the same time saying Thank You can go along way with some people and thats because its being Respectfull as I see it.

and this is why we are so emotionless! if men had emotions anymore we'd all be broken down crying heaps. we are forced to disregard emotion in order to survive, and then you have the audacity to wonder why we have none... not you specifically op but women in general.

I mentioned it about 20 pages ago and someone else did as well.

Why can't a guy have an opt out clause where he has to claim it in the same time period a woman has to abort a feotus? He can say, "Nope, didn't want this kid. I'm choosing to not take any responsibility for this kid from this point on just as the woman can if she were to choose to abort."

Seems pretty simple, straight forward and fair.

It's simply a debate. I'm not an activist.

Believe it or not, I can't tell you how many women friends I've made on these forums from threads like this. So, there's no incentive for me to refrain.
There.
Anymore questions?

Many women in this thread have agreed and stated numerous times that it's unfair, but beyond that - what is it would you like us to do about it? What do you want to do about it? What's the purpose of the enlightenment?

Is there some action we're taking here about this or are we just venting? If we're venting, that's fine. How long are we planning on venting before we feel we made enough noise?

No Womaninprogress

What I'm wondering is if these older woman, lowered there standards cause they aren't physically attractive anymore? Or grown in there maturity and realized, looks is important, but what's inside a person matters for more. At least that's what I'm starting to believe, or am I mistaken?

Ladies, I've heard from a few of you about the quality of males on this site, and it has led to some of you to leave POF. (Maybe, it was just "me!") Are there better, more effective ways to meet numerous people from the opposite sex in such a short time?

I realize POF isn't the only fish in the sea, and I have heard of other sites, but wouldn't they have the same pool of members of the opposite sex?

Another thing~ Are diamonds REALLY a girl's best friend?

Never be with anyone that abuses their own animals.

Could it be that women are so used to talking to other women about these things that they forget that men INTERPRET it differently, and probably should at least keep this in mind when describing themselves? It's probably not in a woman's best interest to leave it to us men to just "figure it out". To me, for a woman to do that says bad things for a relationship. It says to me that the woman will drop vague hints and that her guy is just supposed to "know" what it is. This is soooo common. It's passive-aggressive behavior, and is destructive.

obviously the majority of women posting on this thread have absolutely no interest in recognizing the rights of the opposite gender; neither logic nor fairness can be applied when their arguments derive entirely from contempt, indifference and antipathy for the male gender.

You guys are all forgetting about Sexual Harassment. In the USA if a man asks out a woman at work or school, and she is not interested, She can file a sexual harassment claim against him and cause him to lose his job or be thrown out of school.

Which is stangely reminiscent of what unmarried women who turned up pregnant fifty years ago were told, namely that she should have kept her legs together.

Only women are privileged to freely partake of recreational sex.

Question: if a woman is able to claim child support from a man for getting her pregnant, should she also be able to sue him if she gets an STD? Afterall, it was his responsibility for giving her the STD, just as it was his responsibility for getting her pregnant, right? There was nothing she could have done to prevent the STD, right?

I say those things on mine but it's more a warning than promoting myself.

...and right here is where the root of the problem lies. This clearly illustrates a commonly held notion that men are lesser beings in this area. Instead of asking women to carry the full burden of responsibility of the decisions that THEY ultimately make with THEIR bodies, it's tell the men to keep it in their pants.

Women who say those things are not saying them to YOU or anyone else reading their profile. It's self talk. Those are things a man can figure out for himself, beyond that, to me a truly independent woman sees no need to advertise it.

For a woman to say she doesn't need a man, blah. Everyone needs a companion of some kind. I suppose they have a dog or enough Jack Rabbits to keep her busy for a while.

It's not that they're distant, it's that you're focused on something that they are not. You're brain is still focused on one situation, one thought, one feeling and they've moved beyond that.

Once they've moved beyond it there is no need to talk about it any further. In our minds we make everything complex. Men tend to simplify it, deal with it, and move on.

Hey, next time i make you pay for my decision to have a penis i'll let you know.

As far as men are concerned, the risks of abortion to prevent him from being a father are ok for women to take, but the risks of vasectomy to prevent him from becoming a father aren't. Double sexist standard, anyone?