Vanity knows no bounds,people continually spend money on themselves .
Whether the product actually works is almost irrelevant, they're happy they bought some crap
"""You have to explain to us how the industry can extract this amount of money""

People seem to trust anything with a fancy label and packaging, they're gullible and foolish
"""Most people don't wish to pay drug prices for their supplements.""""

I don't write the 1000's of articles that exist , exposing the rampant irregularity of quality in supplements.
""""your demand of government intervention"""""--"""You don't like the industry """"

Parasitic profiting by duping people into buying products for internal consumption
that are mislabeled and contain undisclosed ingredients and contaminants is unscrupulous.

Perhaps the scientist makes his money this way and defends the practice so vehemently ?
Maybe he's done the actuarial calculations for the empiracally low risks.

IF a company would clearly demonstrate in vitro (on a molecular level) and
in vivo (on a physiological level) effects , they would have a much better chance
of differentiating themselves from the competition.

At the moment it's all hype, marketing, and pulling the wool over peoples eyes.
AN INDUSTRY REAPING 61 BILLION $$$ /YEAR --based on peoples vanity, not science

http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/Industry/Supplements-industry-worth-61bn-to-US-economy

Risk assessment incorporates scientific judgment (opinion) and risk management incorporates "components of sound, practical decision making."
The human element exists in both and can be scientific, clinical, political, social, and economic.
It is also inherently psychological, especially when "protection" of public health or public safety is invoked as a rationale for the activity.
The layman's term for this "driving psychological force" is greed.

Scientist of what ??? ...He hasn't come forth with his credentials
The Scientists are an influential post-punk band from Perth, Australia,
led by Kim Salmon, initially known as Exterminators and then Invaders.

Would-be experts and untested products feed a $20 billion obsession
with better performance across all levels of sports

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1155395/index.htm

There are exceptionally low barriers to entry into the industry
and the article emphasizes the lack of credentials needed to start
a supplement business via the Internet.

Certificates of Analysis are just useless pieces of paper that can say anything
the bribe maker wants them to say.

If these regulations were enforced there would be none of the issues cited in the article.

The Canadian Sport Centre training facility went to using its own brand of 'tested' supplements AFTER finding out the stuff on the general market shelf couldn't be trusted.

Contamination of dietary supplements and positive drug tests in sport

International Olympic Committee and of the World Anti-Doping Agency
- Some supplements contain excessive doses of potentially toxic ingredients,
while others do not contain significant amounts of the ingredients listed on the label.
There is also now evidence ingredients that are not declared on the label
such as anabolic androgenic steroids , ephedrine and caffeine occur in products.
This contamination may in most cases be the result of poor manufacturing practice,
but there is some evidence of deliberate adulteration of products.

The principle of strict liability that applies in sport means that innocent ingestion
of prohibited substances is not an acceptable excuse,
and athletes testing positive are liable to penalties.

Positive tests are likely to be the result of inadvertent ingestion of prohibited substances
present in otherwise innocuous dietary supplements.

Journal of Sports Sciences, Volume 23, Issue 9 September 2005 , pages 883 - 889
Subject: Sport & Exercise Science;

Give the cat another bj

The International Olympic Committee has repeatedly studied the standard dietary supplements used by athletes
— mostly the protein powders you buy at “health food” and grocery stores.
In 3 studies - 15% contained undeclared prohormones, 22% contained prohibited (undeclared) steroids,
14% contained undeclared caffeine or ephedrine.

http://www.canadiansportcentre.com/athlete/supplements.php

Bottom line: 1 in 5 supplements are contaminated with undeclared potentially unsafe ingredients.
(as per Kelly Anne Erdman, Canadian Sport Centre Calgary,
UofCalgary Sport Med, RD, cycling olympian).

It CAN hurt to use commercially produced protein powders.

You can also check out the Sports Illustrated May 18th article on the topic
— “What you don’t know might kill you”

Who wants a scoop of poop, Next Please

You're absolutely right, the system is perfect in every conceivable way, leave the status quo alone.........damn sarcasm button got stuck...hmmm

Profits always go before health in America --they sold a couple zillion units......

PS
I seem to remember a time when almost 50 % of the kids in the lunchroom had PB & J

Publicly available dietary supplement ingredient database, DSID,
first released in April 2009 including data for adult MVMs ( multivitamin/mineral ).

http://dietarysupplementdatabase.usda.nih.gov/


The market controls supplements............law of supply and demand VERSUS health
---All 14 Hydroxycut products are being recalled.
While the Hydroxycut products were obviously legitimate products,
the chemical formulation produce dangerous side-effects that make them unsafe

Some of the health problems associated with the Hydroxycut products include jaundice,
elevated liver enzymes (an indicator of potential liver problems), seizures,
cardiovascular disorders, kidney and liver damage possibly requiring liver transplant.

Let the gullible die....It's the American way

Dude, do you have anything to add to the discussion or do you just attack everyone on this page ?

YOU can put anything in your body any time you want, no one is stopping you.
--whether or not it's legal, it's regulated, controlled, restricted is quite another issue.

NOTHING will stop you if you are truly committed to putting X into your body
--find it, pay for it, and be happy

What is your point CatJandBj ? or is just cut/paste quote and counterpunch ?

Society enacted the bill HR 2749 - The Food Safety Enhancement Act of 2009

Passage of the FSEA into law would amend the Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act (FFDCA).

The bill proposes a substantial increase in power and resources for the Food and Drug Administration (FDA)

APPARENTLY status quo sucked - hence the need to amend things a bit.

ANYONE can buy supplements, as opposed to prescription drugs which need doctors in the loop.
That alone changes the equation opening up a world of bizarre ingredients

Hands up here.

Living in a world where all you do is act on instinct and survival and reproduction are your only concern.

You live in complete harmony with nature.

Yep. I am in.

Millions disagree........fools, every last one of them

People don't NEED supplements, they need a solid, containment free food supply every day.
( want and need being the key operative words, unfortunately often based on fear, mis-information )

People in the USA want to pop a pill to fix all their woes --the profits margins reflect that.

Vanity will never dissappear , lots of people pay Enormous Amounts of $$ for aesthetics
----under the guise of health

Protectionism of pharmaceutical companies (supplement companies) has to stop.
--how many recalls exist........I've lost count about 3 decades ago

Pseudo-Science, snake oil salesmen, call it what you will, --it's still duping people out of cash

And when was this? I remember buying lots of herbs freely back in 1972 when I was the herb & spice buyer for a food coop and a vegetarian restaurant. I don't remember ginko being on the radar then but we had dozens and dozens of herbs.

The FDA doesn't have to "approve" them. There is no testing, nothing that verifies that what it says on the label is, in fact, what the product contains. More about this later, but there have been some alarming cases and I myself recently found out that an "herbal remedy" I bought years ago was probably laced with pharmaceuticals. The guy who was formulated it got busted after the *Canadian* board of health tested some samples. He could have continued uninterrupted here because the FDA does not regulate herbs in the U.S.

Maybe they do not care because no one has ever died from consuming marijuana.

It was easy before people realized they could mix a bunch of FDA approved chemicals together make erroneous claims and then sell it to anyone with enough $ and lack of education to buy it.

They know that they do not have to submit anything to the FDA other than the list of ingredients and nothing will get tested unless people start dieing.

Other non fatal short term / long term effects of their concoction could go unreported.

I think that what people fail to realize is when they buy supplements they think well they must be safe because the FDA says so, but they do not understand there is no testing and you are on your own.

That said.

I say all the power to them, its a free market and if you can convince people to buy your stuff all for the sake of vanity, go for it and make as much $ as you can.

Not everyone puts their DVD's up their but and in their mouths,
but if you paid for it with $$$ I guess it's your right.

The FDA fails on numerous lavels to keep anyone safe, yourself included.
--they are consistently bought off, coerced and asked to look the other way.

A friend of mine has recently started to toss 4 raw organic eggs into his breakfast smoothie instead of using whey protein powder. Claims that it's a far superior source of protein, being totally unprocessed.

My doubts:

1. What about all the cholesterol in the yolks? He claims recent research has shown that the fat and cholesterol in eggs, as well as in butter, is not harmful.

2. What about the risk of salmonella? He claims that you can detect salmonella or any other spoilage by smelling the eggs first.

Does anyone here eat raw eggs on a regular basis?

That's funny you haven't provide no proof at all. That's because there is no term studies to prove it's safe.

Now you make fun of Canadians doctors?

We have better cancer recovery rates than Americans. Results are a lot more than American BS.

AT least I provided some credible sources, yours is just all full of hot air.

Just like transfat believed to be safe for a long time now it is known and proven to be harmful, otherwise would some American cities ban it?

^^^^ Back your claims, there is no study to claim it to be safe.

My friend's father is a retired chemistry professor would think it's lethal.

Your claims are wishy washy crap, no proof at all.

On by the way people recently treated with cancer in Canada are told to stay away from diet sugar! It is known to feed cancer!

Now are you going to claim these surgeons are wrong too? LOL

Nice to see you back, catjandbj

Americans spent 25 billion dollars a year on crap other than food to put into their mouth and swallow.
Dietary supplements ___ do not___need approval from FDA before they are marketed.

The only role the FDA plays in a manufacturer’s decision to produce and market
a diet supplement is that each “dietary ingredient” used must first be FDA-approved.

The FDA ___ not the manufacturer___ has the responsibility for showing
that a dietary supplement is unsafe before it can take action to restrict or remove from the marketplace.

The onus is on the buyer because most ingredients have not been studied to any extent
---whether or not they work or are safe is anecdotal, or completely meaningless.
It's ALL about greed and seperating you from your hard earned $$$.

How many of you really, truly, deep down, feel safe putting anything other than food in your mouth ?

Do you actually know what is in the supplement you bought - the government doesn't .

Body builders have a shorter life span than a healthy person. It is because they consume was too much protein.

If as many people took hydroxycut as ate peanuts or used tylenol we would probably have 100 deaths.

When the products have things like: Other Ingredients: Cellulose, stearic acid, croscarmellose sodium, magnesium stearate and silicon dioxide , listed as ingredients it is never good thing.

Coconut oil? Are you nuts! That is a saturated fat! Not a healthy fat to be taking in. Where in the world did you come up with that one?

All California almonds, which is where most US almonds originate, are now irradiated, but can still be labelled raw and organic, for the benefit(reduced (salmonella) liability) of the almond producers. Kills some of the nutritious content, don't know if/how it transforms the oil and protein, but it probably moves it in the wrong direction.

Just another case of corporate benefit equals customer detriment.

Because your body only process 20-30 grams of protein in one sitting rest will have to stored as fat.

Still waiting for you to sign up to chad nichols site and im still waiting for your sample of your daily diet.

J Neuroendocrinol. 2007 Feb;19(2):127-37.

Circadian clocks: setting time by food.
Mendoza J.
Institut des Neurosciences Cellulaires et Intégratives, Département de Neurobiologie des Rythmes UMR7168, CNRS et Université Louis Pasteur, Strasbourg, France. jmendoza@neurochem.u-strasbg.fr

In mammals, daily rhythms in behaviour and physiology are driven by a circadian timing system comprised, in a hierarchical way, of a master pacemaker in the suprachiasmatic nuclei (SCN) of the hypothalamus and of peripheral oscillators in most body cells. At the molecular level, in both the SCN and peripheral oscillators, the circadian clock mechanism is built from interconnected feedback loops in gene expression that operate in a cell-autonomous and self-sustained fashion. The SCN clock is mainly entrained by light/dark cycles. By contrast, peripheral oscillators can be strongly affected by daily feeding cycles, which have little effect on the phase of the SCN. However, when feeding schedules are coupled with a caloric restriction, behavioural and physiological circadian rhythms and gene expression in the SCN are shifted and/or entrained to meal-time. Moreover, the reward and motivational value of food can also be a potent synchroniser for the SCN clock. This suggests that energy metabolism and motivational properties of food can influence the clock mechanism of the SCN. Food-related cues may entrain clock genes of the SCN with a direct effect, or be mediated indirectly by another neural or peripheral site. In addition, there may be one or more oscillator sites that would play an integral role as a food-entrained oscillator (FEO), responsible for anticipation of meal-time. The site housing, or the network underlying, this putative FEO is still unknown. The aim of this review is to summarise our current knowledge of the central and peripheral circadian clocks and how they can be entrained by feeding at the physiological and molecular levels

Time for you to put up or SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!

I have been around some African Americans who did some bad things. HHMMMMmm so maybe all of them are bad. After all thats what your argument sounds like. You say that you beeen around few pro athletes who had eating issues so in conclusion you act as if every single pro has eating issues.

You call all those guys juice hads. Thats typical excuse for someone who on their best they could not even look like those guys /girls on their worst day. Juice is being used in every single sport by almost all athletes. Fact of the matter is even without juice those guys would still be good. Other wise every single gym rat across the world would be pro athlete. You also do know that their are natural bodybuilding federations? where they test them and give them lie detector tests.

Juice or no juice to be in amazing shape for the show one has to properly diet. Dont even argue with me about that. Everyone in fitness world can tell if person been cheating on their diet or not. HUGE HUGE difference in look, juice or no juice, if one cheated a lot you could tell!!!!!!

I am not going to argue with you guys anymore. THose people who are open minded and willing to learn they will do their own research , they will talk to personal trainers, they will talk to nutritionists, they will google bodybuilding/fitness websites, they will pick up fitness magazines, they will talk to guys and girls in the gym who compete in the sport and then they will make their own decision.

To the guy who said "who am i going to believe, am i going to believe scientist or some egg head singer"

with all due respect buddy! but i am not going to believe some egg head singer but person who i am going to believe is person who did her diet and trained her , the person i am going to believe is person who did diet for mr.olympia, i am going to believe person who did diet for mike tyson, i am going to believe people who been doing fitness all their life. I am going to believe nutritionist who over past 20 years transformed body after after body. Reason i believe them because i did my own research and because MY BODY IS MY PROVE FOR MY OWN RESEARCH! I will take word of all those guys over yours any time of the day ! Also its well known fact that not everything that looks good on paper works in real life! So once again, i will go by what nutritionists have to say. I am not going to argue something thats agreed on by entire fitness/athletic community(football players, nba players, olympic swimmer mike phepls, bodybuilders, boxers, runners, nutritionists, personal trainers, lol even operas nutritionist, they alll agree that extra meals elevated metabolism and gives person better recovery and they have agree on it for the past 60 years!

To the girl who said that she was eating 1200 calories and she was always hungry. If you were hungry then why did you not adjust your calorie intake and eat more clean food? lol under eating can have same affects as over eating. Thats the problem with some people, they will do wrong things such as eat too little and then say that diet does not work. When im dieting if i feel im too hungry i just eat little more food. Don't count calories, go by how you feel. dont eat until you stuffed , eat until you feel full. REMEMBER ONE THING OUR BODY DOES NOT LIKE CHANGE SO IT USUALY TAKES 2-4 WEEKS TO START FEELING/SEEING CHANGE. When i clean up my diet for the first 2 weeks all i want is sweets/fats but after few weeks my body forgets about it and idont have same cravings. And if it still consists after 4 weeks then all you have to do is just adjust your calories. Remember one thing. clean calories did not make you gain weight, fats/sugars made you gain weight, so don't be scared of clean calories specially if you working out 5 times a week.

In the end if something works for you then continue using it, why change it if it aint broke. BUt if you still where you were a year ago with minimal change then YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG. No scence in doing something where you know months or year from now going to give you same results.

I know that my metabolism raises when i eat more often. Just like isaid before, when i eat 3 meals a day im barely ever hungry. Once I start eating more often Im starving after 2-3 hours. I have friends who eat 2-3 times a day and they can just eat peanut butter sandwich and go without hunger for next 5-6 hours, reason for that is because their metabolism is slower because it knows that he wont eat for next 5-6 hours so their is no sense of urgency to burn off those calories. When i eat properly (juice free) i transform my body within 15 weeks. I guess i have to be doing something right.

I competed and won bodybuilding shows, i have made diets for other guys/girls who compete. I transformed my clients in the gym, i was lucky enough to talk to mr.olympia nutritionist, lucky enough to talk to CUBS nutritionist who works out in my gym, lucky enough to talk to pro athletes. So please dont tell me that everything i have learned from worlds best athletes and nutritionists IS WRONG specially when i took that knowledge and used it on myself and others and it seemed to work!

Difference between me and you is. Im not genetically gifted, i dont take juice but what i do is. I experiment on my own body lol and my friends/clients who ask me to help them lose weight. I listen and read articles from worlds best nutritionists and i ACTUALLY UPPLY THEIR KNOWLEDGE TO MY OWN BODY. Their is no magic pill, their is just hard work and PROPER NUTRITION which i could not get from just 3 meals but hey if you found a way to have fast metabolism and get enough RECOVERY just from 3 meals then you have done something that all athletes could not do for the past 60 years , more power to you!

Any smart person will stop reading our arguments and go and actually pick up diet books, fitness magazines and with his own eyes see what all of them have in common. IM DONE ARGUING WITH YOU 3 KNOW IT ALL BUT NO BODY OR CLIENTS TO SHOW FOR YO YO'S.

I have. My last serious girlfriend was a fitness competitor and I have also dated couple others including one who is well known in the pro ranks. So I do have the first hand knowledge of above statement to be true. I have witnessed binge and purge, not eating anything solid etc.

In fact I have nothing more to add to this thread which I already havent already said.
carry on. this is entertaining.

Oh dear. Ironman, please indicate where I have ever said nutrition was not important. Please read what I actually wrote, instead of what you want to see.

Why would you assume that I've never stumbled across Muscle Mayhem? Just because I prefer to get my diet/traning advice from non-juicers does not mean that I know nothing about nutrition and fitness.

In fact, when you're 46, have popped out two kids, and can lift as heavy as I do with test levels much lower than a 28 yr old male, then you can come back and tell me I know very little about fitness.

And we're still waiting for those 'plenty of other studies'.
kthnxbye

I dont need to defend myself to you. My body is my prove (where is yours?) and if you want extra prove then go to chad nichols site, im sure expert in nutrition can explain way better then i can and if his word is not good enough for you there are tons of other atheletes their who can help you as well.

There are tons of studies that show extra small meals raise metabolism. I am not about to sit here and do research for you.

Also do me a favor and start reading more bodybuilding/fitness magazines, read up what type of diets world class athletes & top armatures are on, start talking to guys who compete in the sport, start hanging out in bodybuilding forums. You might learn thing or two!

I am done debating with you! You don’t realize how ignorant and uneducated regarding fitness you make yourself sound!!!! Everything I tell you and told you comes from ELITE FITNESS PROFESIONAL AND ELITE PROFESIONAL NUTRITIONISTS!!! Every time you tell me im wrong, its you like you telling all those professionals that they are wrong and you right!

There are people like you in every single sport, people who could not even win local contest but yet they will argue with the most successful people in the sport. I would love for you to stand next to fitness competitor girls who are best of the best in the world and tell them all that they are wrong and they don’t know how to diet or eat for the show. lol all those girls paid 1000 dollars or so for expert nutritionists to make diets for them that consist of 5-6 meals. lol i guess they all got ripped off. All they had to do was fallow your study and they could of saved 1000 dollars. lol give me a break.

Ask yourself this, why is it that person feels hungrier when they eat more often during the day. It’s because their metabolism is elevated. People who eat only 2-3 times a day can go for hours without eating, reason for that is because their metabolism is not working as fast and as result of that they don’t get hungry as fast. Come on use some common sense!!!

Tell you what, go on Chad Nichols forums and post your argument their. That site is full of pro athletes , top armatures and nutritionists who help elite athletes get in the best shape. If you are so strongly convinced that you are right and I am wrong then you should have no problem PROVING me wrong on that site.

You keep asking me to show studies

So I guess word of pro athletes who make living of their bodies is NOT ENOUGH FOR YOU!

Every single fitness magazine says that you have to eat 5-6 small meals a day to elevate ur metabolism is not enough for you!

World’s best nutritionists say you have to eat 5-6 small meals a day is not enough for you!

Movie stars when asked how they got in such great shape they say that they worked out hard and ate 5-6 small a day, that’s not enough for you as well!

And the list goes on!

I can’t win with someone like you. In the end you can argue with me until you are blue in the face but all your arguments will be nothing but HOT AIR since as they say PROVE IS IN THE POODING and that’s why fitness models look the way they do in matter of couple of months.

Feel free to GO TO CHAD NICHOLS FORUMS AND STATE YOUR CASE THEIR WITH WORLDS BEST AND TOP PEOPLE IN FITNESS INDUSTRY!! Tell them that everything that they have learned in the past 100 years is wrong and that your one or two studies prove that. Also make sure to email nutrasystem diet, south beach diet , companties and tell them that they dont need to tell their clients to eat 5-6 small meals a day , that your one or two studies show all their clients can get same results from 3 meals!

Next time when im doing my bodybuilding show , i'll make sure not to talk to guy who did nutrition of Mr.USA, and some famous pop singers, i'll make sure to contact you since you and your study know more then top fitness experts. Good luck and i'll see you on chad nichols site stating your case to worlds top fitness experts!

Tell you what. Why don’t you google Chad Nichols and Charles Glass. They train Mr.Olympia, Pro-bodybuilders, Fitness models, Mike Tyson, and other celebrities.

catjandbj --- LOL maybe I should post studies that shows that cigarettes do not kill, you know they do exist right? For the study that you showed me there are 50 times more studies that show other wise.

I am not going to post those studies because its just silly its common knowledge and if you want to better yourself you will go and do your own research because its very clear you only read and believe what you want to believe.

Unlike you I have done real life study on myself and my clients. When I was younger I read fitness magazines, talked to expert nutritionists, worked out with pro-bodybuilders. When I applied their knowledge to my own body my body exploded with progress.

Maybe I should go get a study that says smoking is not bad for you and then go argue entire cancer community in harm in smoking because that’s what you are essentially are doing by showing me couple of bogus studies. They even have studies that show you only need 20 grams of protein to be big and muscular (proven to be wrong), they also have studies that show that your body can not metabolize more then 30 grams of protein per meal (proven to be wrong).

Millions on top of millions people die from smoking every year. HHHHMmmmmm could it be true that smoking kills and could it be also true that the study I read regarding smoking not being bad for you is WRONG?!

Thousands on top of thousands of Athletes, Pros, movie stars and regular gym rats get into shape by eating more often. HHHHmmmmmm could it be true eating more then 3 times a day promotes extra lose in body fat and gain in lean muscle and the study that went against is wrong?

Tell you what you make up your own mind. I have and I got great results with millions of others. Now its time for you to do the same!

For 6 months go from eating 3 clean meals a day to 6 clean meals a day and then tell me if made no change in your body what so ever. Do your own study on yourself!

One thing every single person has in common when they go from 3 clean meals a day to 6 clean meals a day, they all say that they are more hungry through out a day and they cant wait to eat again. Reason for that is due to ELEVAITED MATABOLSIM FROM EXTRA MEALS!