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Author
Thread: Are most single moms looking for a guy to care for them financially?
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
80 (
view
)
Are most single moms looking for a guy to care for them financially?
Posted:
10/6/2009 9:23:21 PM
i cant speak for other single moms,
but me personally im not looking for a guy to carry me in life financially , I knew i was going to be a single mom and prepared for it.
I can put a roof over our heads, bills paid, food in fridge and clothing on our backs with no struggle at all.
Im looking for love, romance, someone to laugh with and share my life with, not a sugar daddy
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
14 (
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)
As a single parent how do you spend time with the significant other?
Posted:
9/17/2009 9:54:32 PM
i get a sitter and go out, or see eachother when my son is in bed, i dont involve my son in my dating life.
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
2 (
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Should I let my son's dad see him?
Posted:
8/30/2009 7:34:09 PM
i dont know what to tell you hun,
to me, if he wanted to see my son, he could come over and spend time with him, i wouldnt be going out of my way for him, especially if he hasnt paid child support.
have you guys gone to court for any of this? is he on the birth certificate?
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
28 (
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baby food
Posted:
8/29/2009 5:21:08 PM
no peanut butter until they are atLEAST TWO. same with citrus stuff.
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
16 (
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baby food
Posted:
8/28/2009 11:59:58 PM
l, which amazingly we all survived on (!) was that once an infant reached about 6 weeks of age, you began to slowly add rice cereal to their formula, making it thicker and they would go longer and longer periods of time between eating. It is not necessary to flavor it, they are too young to understand that concept. For them it's a bodily function.
just wanted to comment on this as well after reading all the posts. my sister and i were BOTH fed rice cereal at about 3-4 weeks of age, now her and i have to take pills to help digest our food, and cant even touch some food. this didnt even happen to us until our 20's.
so yes we might have grown up healthy and happy, and yes we are still alive, but now are living with these conditions that could of been prevented by waiting to shove solids down our throats as babies
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
64 (
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The infamous disappearing guy act
Posted:
8/28/2009 8:54:59 PM
every time this has happened to me, turned out they had a girlfriend the whole time,
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
10 (
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)
To delete or not to delete (profile)
Posted:
8/28/2009 8:44:46 PM
maybe your standards are to damn high, lower them,
just because at first glance you might not have that click, but get to know the guy, go out and actually meet them, then make your decision to wright them off as un-datable or not.
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
15 (
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baby food
Posted:
8/28/2009 8:31:43 PM
ok, sooo no matter what your doctor says, with all the research done now, no child should have rice cereal, or solids period before 6 months of age,
no it does not replace a bottle,
when you eat something do you not get thirsty and like something to drink while you eat? common,
you shouldnt even be asking this stuff in here, do the research yourself WHILE pregnant or even before you start getting into this stuff,
when you start solids, you start rice cereal for a few weeks, then go oats, and the others, do a week or so between them to see if there is a reaction, then start fruits or veggies, one at a time.
if your child is 4 1/2 months, should still strickly be on formula. if you just thought your child was drinking to much and wasnt filling them up, kids go through growth spurts. my son went through 4 cases of formula a week.. he drank a LOT , dosnt mean i put him on rice cereal so soon.
reasons to wait for solids-
heart problems later in life
being over weight,
IBS
food allergies
Why 6 - 12 months is ok for solids
Baby's intestines should be fully "closed"
Babies are less likely to aspirate foods
Baby is better able to recognize that she is full and regulate how much she needs to eat
Baby is able to indicate she is full by turning away from food
Baby should be have fully developed head control and be able to sit up with minimal assistance
Baby has had breast milk or formula during the crucial first 6 months of life giving him the healthiest start with optimal nutrients
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
238 (
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PLANNED PREGNANCY GONE........????
Posted:
8/17/2009 10:04:32 PM
i just read this whole thread and im soo happy you get to see your son, i wish EVERY father felt the way you do about your son.
i wish you didnt have to have supervised visits, and could see him every week,,
fathers give something to their kids that us moms cant.
a daughters first love is her daddy,
a sons first hero is his dad,
congrats on everything you have accomplished with getting to be in his life, i hope his mom ease's up a bit on you guys and lets it be for frequent! thank youso much for updating as much as you did, the detailed posts about ur visits brought tears to my eyes!
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
35 (
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Single moms and pictures of their kids on profile
Posted:
8/12/2009 8:14:46 PM
i hate seeing photos up like that, makes me wonder what they are really looking for, any mom who is ok with you seeing their child right of the bat, is a red flag to me
im a single mom , i dont discuss my child on my page nor do i have photos of him up because im out looking for someone i can date and get to know, not my son to date and get to know if that makes sense.
children should never get involved until it gets serious
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
200 (
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Would Single Moms Do it over Again?
Posted:
8/12/2009 7:59:38 PM
i had already left the father of my child before i found out, so when i found out i knew i would be doing it alone.
would i go back and not have him? hell no! i love my child more then anything in this world, yes it has made me grow up faster then i would of liked but i always had my priorities in order so it wasnt that life changing for me.
is it hard?
well that depends on how care/responsible free your life is now.
the hardest part of being a single mom?
everything has its moments
for me i dont have any family here or friends that can watch him when i need to do something. So being able to afford baby sitters and going out to do what i need to or going out with friends can be a bit tricky, i for sure dont get to do it as much as id like!
as long as you have a wicked support system around you, or learn to be your own support system emotionally you will be fine.
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
10 (
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Seriously?
Posted:
8/12/2009 7:52:29 PM
i think you did the right think, with how many sick people are out there that target single mothers/parents to get closer to their children
i have it said that i have children on my profile but i do not go into detail about it, nor do i talk about my child as im getting to know someone, i tell them the basics and that is all.
We as mothers have to protect our children, if he was actually curious then he went about it the wrong way, but that would of put up a flag with me as well.
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
68 (
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why are people afraid to date single parents.....?
Posted:
7/14/2009 8:54:59 PM
a lot of guys get scared off by single moms because there are a lot of single moms out there who give us a bad name. like letting them meet their kid off the bat, making them play daddy, blablabla,
i feel if every woman would wait until at LEAST 6 - 7 months to introduce their child to their partner there would be a lot more lasting relationships between them.
let you guys build a relationship, see how you really feel about one another then introduce children when you see it getting serious.
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
5 (
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To be cautious
Posted:
7/14/2009 8:45:18 PM
if you had it in your gut already that you were uncomfortable to be with him i dont see what made you get back in his car and trust him to drive you home. i would of parted ways at the restaurant and caught a ride from there with your friend, ALWAYS trust your gut
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
614 (
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for the ladies....can you TRULY say money ain't a factor?
Posted:
7/14/2009 8:41:06 PM
i can honestly say, i could care less about how much money he makes, as long as he can hold his own, good for him.
Im not out to meet a rich man, or a man that can take care of me financially, i can do that fine on my own.
If im in love and happy, thats all that matters, not the material stuff.
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
19 (
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Do fathers have any rights in Family Court?
Posted:
4/27/2009 12:09:10 PM
since you guys lived together, im assuming you're on the birth cirtificate, Legally, you already have joint custody and guardianship, take it to court not mediation, the judge will make it LEGALLY signed you have joint both.
I dont see why you would want your place as primary, his primary home should be with his mother, she dosnt sound like a terrible parent and neither do you.
for her not letting you see your son until court is going to hurt her in the end,
document EVERYTHING!
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
171 (
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Are there any people left that date one at a time?
Posted:
4/16/2009 9:45:50 PM
If i have a really good connection with a guy im talking with, i will meet up with him, if its still a good connection and can see dating potential then i stop talking to other guys i was interested in to give that man my full attention and see where it goes.
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
681 (
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Do guys like single moms?
Posted:
4/2/2009 9:51:21 AM
it is a little harder for us single mothers to find a good man to date, and to actually find a guy who can understand the demands of having an infant and trying to be in a relationship at the same time.
Ive been a single mother since my son was born, ive had one relationship for 8 months, and have been single since.
Its honestly hard because guys just group you in with all the other single mothers who just want a guy to play daddy and support you both.
Im like you, not looking for a man to support me or my son, im not looking for him to play daddy to my son, and no man is introduced to my son for a very long time.
I guess you just have to put that in your profile and see how it goes. I hope the best for you hun!
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
22 (
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Where the hell is the filter on you matches
Posted:
3/24/2009 10:23:05 PM
why did the option to see people you have contacted get taken off? can that be put back on too?
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
61 (
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Very unpleasant POF date
Posted:
3/23/2009 6:37:58 PM
op- Do you know how BORING a hockey game is??????? Grown men skating up and down the ice, carrying wooden sticks, and batting at a little round piece of composite plastic, at opposite sides of the ice rink...... about as exciting as yesterdays cold mashed potatoes!!... well wait, maybe when they bring out the Zambini ice-making machine.- wrong event for first meet amd greet, i think. What she did to you, for her bail- out on you was terrible. She has no class !!
speak for yourself! not all women think a hockey game is boring, id have a blast at a hockey game, no matter who was playing,
first date, bymyself, or with some friends/boyfriend,
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
63 (
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First date ... who pays?
Posted:
3/22/2009 9:52:25 PM
every date that ive ever been on, ive always at least paid for half, or if he would completely refuse my money, then the next time we would meet up i would bring him a gift, or pay for that date. I don't feel it should be just the man who pays, im a hard working woman and like to pay my share as well.
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
55 (
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Very unpleasant POF date
Posted:
3/22/2009 9:49:06 PM
that really sucks hun! if i was in her position i still would of stayed for the game, and told you how i felt, any girl with class would of done the same.
what she did was pretty low, dont let it get you down or turn you off from trying to meet anyone els off this site hun! were not all bad
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
263 (
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DeadBeat Mothers
Posted:
3/15/2009 10:55:56 PM
im in the same boat hun, but im not in school, but just work full time, two jobs, and raise him, all my family is in b.c so i dont have help there either,
its hard to find time to get out and grasp a social life, also puts a damper on the relationship opportunities.
if you dont have a baby sitter for your child to go out, you can look into babysitting courses in your area, go there and just drop off your number, childs age, and what not and im sure you'll have some bites there! best of luck to you, keep your chin up!
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
21 (
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Hug or shake?
Posted:
3/15/2009 10:36:34 PM
ive hugged, ive shook hands, ive just said hey then started conversation right away, it all depends i guess how comfortable you are with eachother, and both parties usually know right away how it will go the first meeting per-say
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
232 (
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do I cheat after almost 20 years?
Posted:
3/15/2009 10:33:15 PM
my advice is not to cheat,
if you honestly love the guy, then you two need to do things to get that spark back and make you feel like you're in the honey moon stage again.
If you're not up for it, or you try and its just not there to come back anymore, then leave him BEFORE you CHEAT
all the best of luck to you guys! hope you can work through it
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
2 (
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Is there more choices for paying accts?
Posted:
3/11/2009 9:23:33 PM
its available to everyone, and in my honest opinion its not worth it, all it does is put a little badge saying you're serious when you can type the same thing for free on your profile,
its a scam if you ask me, since they still advertise the site as "free"
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
320 (
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Do you wish the worst for your ex?
Posted:
3/10/2009 10:19:07 PM
no matter how great or shitty my relationships have been, ive honestly wanted nothing but hte best for them in life
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
281 (
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How many people have actually went on a date using this site?
Posted:
3/9/2009 9:00:21 AM
Met two who looked nothing like their pictures
, I had to scan the horizon to find them when I first arrived.
I think the pictures should have to be updated periodically somehow or get on video cam first. Is that possible on POF?
ive heard that from SOOO many people off here
and for vid cam, im pretty sure you can in I.M, at least you could when i met my ex off here, if they took the option away, just add them to msn and web cam it with them there.
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
277 (
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How many people have actually went on a date using this site?
Posted:
3/8/2009 12:34:14 PM
Who has been on a date?
i have met a number of men off this site over 3 years
How many emails, phone calls, im's, or whatever before you went on the date?
Depends on the person, some you want to meet right away, some takes a while.
What was your experience?
ive only had one bad first meeting, one awkward one, and a few shitty relationships from men ive met off here, And some wonderful friendships.
What i have noticed, is a lot of the boys on here aged 20-30 are just looking for a booty call, or a relationship based on sex, - just MY observation -
before i get flamed here yes there ARE SOME who are seriously looking for love.
also a question to the ladies, how do you like to be approached on a first email from a user?
depends on the person, being open and honest is always a great start but dont come off to strong or forward ( to me anyways )
Is showing too much interest scare you i.e. sending a bunch of gifts or saying you'd like to meet in an email. -
I dont really like it when guys send me roses and gifts on here, i think its tacky, not like i can take the gift home or anything lol, and asking to meet in the first email would be pretty forward and quick to the pump. i usually dont even reply to those emails.
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
60 (
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Why do most men not want to help in the responsibility of caring for children???
Posted:
3/1/2009 11:41:17 PM
its single moms like you, who make men scared to date the good single moms out there
you shouldnt be focusing on finding a father for your children, or some one to help you raise your children,
there are other ways out there , like getting your children into the big brother and sister programs out there,
if you need help financially, get into the system,
for you having two children under 2 years of age and you have been single for 5 years? yeesh! id be running to, just shows me that you were careless, now im wondering if you have even ever been in a long term relationship, or if you had these childrent o see if you could trap a man into dating you? could happen.
im also wondering, how soon you introduce your children to your dating life, in NO way should your children be introduced to any man you date unless its going in a serious direction, children are easily confused and attached to people.
those children are YOUR responsibilities, not another mans who has no connection to them
if i ever got into a long term relationship, i still wouldnt be asking for help from him in anyway, if he offered it, it would be accepted SLOWLY.
you're there to protect your children from harm, why chance them getting close to someone who might not last a few months?
take it easy, dont look so hard for love, focus on you, children and life.
edit - wow i just noticed this thread was made in '06. who would dig this up? lol
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
43 (
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)
Sometimes When You Stop Looking, Love Finds You
Posted:
3/1/2009 11:25:47 PM
i believe it to an extent,
if you're out there desperately looking for love, thinking every person you go on a date with will be your partner, thinking you have loved every person you have been with, you sure arent going to find love that way.
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
540 (
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I was told I am a bad mother because I smoke marijuana.
Posted:
2/22/2009 9:25:55 PM
i dont smoke pot, but im not against it, ( ive only read the first page )
the only thing i think would make you a bad mother is if you smoked/smoked pot in your home, car, around your child, when they were awake, or if it affected your finances. that is all.
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
277 (
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Is it ok for your GF to hang out with Ex boyfriends?
Posted:
2/22/2009 1:18:08 AM
^^ i never once said i put my friends before a man i am with, but i dont let them take a back seat while im in a relationship, im not one of those girls that will loose her friends because she never speaks to them or hangs out with them while in a serious relationship
and i have dated men that had chick friends who wanted them and it didnt bother me, i had no reason for it to because i knew no matter what she did , he wouldnt cheat, and if he DID cheat on me, then he wasnt the man i thought he was and would rather find out sooner then later how faithful he can be to me.
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
274 (
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Is it ok for your GF to hang out with Ex boyfriends?
Posted:
2/21/2009 10:14:23 AM
soul man,
seems like you have had some issues, and i think girls/guys night is very important ESPECIALLY for people in long term relationships, if you spend 24/7 with that person, live with them, talk with them everyday, you need your time away, your friend time, if your s/o comes for that, it dosnt end up being YOUR time away,
my friends have always been there for me, and just because i end up in a long term relationship dosnt mean i wont be goin out by myself like ive always have and going to party with them.
thats one of my BIGGEST pet peeves is as soon as someone gets into a long term relationship , their friends take the back seat, and i never see my friends JUST them, its always with their bf/gf, and its not the same. you have to keep in mind, friends have always been there for you, that new man in your life might not be,
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
18 (
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Kids that don't eat sugar?
Posted:
2/19/2009 9:46:53 PM
my son didnt have ANY sweets natural or not until his first birthday and he was so tierd/cranky by cake time he tasted the icing and that was it, ive jsut recently started giving him few things here and there in moderation with sweets but its not something im making a habit,
it will not make your child sick tho.
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
268 (
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Is it ok for your GF to hang out with Ex boyfriends?
Posted:
2/18/2009 10:10:09 PM
i think you're taking this over the top,
yes they are ex's for a reason, they wernt meant for each other, but when you do date someone they become a part of your life, you get a bond and a friendship with that person,
im VERY good friends with some of my ex;s , we realized it wasnt working out, and better off FRIENDS and thats how it stayed, always will, i consider myself very lucky to have their friendships, and i would never stop talking/seeing someone because a boyfriend asked me to.
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
10 (
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Our childhood experiences influences parenting
Posted:
2/15/2009 1:55:33 PM
i had a really hard childhood , yes i love my parents more then anything and understand they did what they felt was right but now as im raising my son i strive to parent/raise my son nothing like they did for my sister and i , im happy i went through all that because its shown me what kind of parent i refuse to be like.
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
36 (
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single dads dating single mums
Posted:
2/15/2009 1:53:37 PM
as being a single mom i would much rather be with someone who has a child full time or part time as they are more understanding to a busy schedule and yes things do come up and have to cancel dates, ive dated a few men since my son has been born, all to which never had children and they didnt seem to fully understand , and felt a bit left out when i cannot give them what a single lady with no children can.
for the moms who just want childless man to play daddy to her children, you wouldnt want to be with one like that anyways as they have not realized the hurt they are setting their children up for down the road, i feel your children shouldnt be subjected to your dating life until you find someone you want to spend your life with or the potential of it, then children can be introduced.
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
92 (
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a question for all single parents
Posted:
2/15/2009 1:49:20 PM
if there has been reports due to neglect and a dirty home environment i would go along with it, see what they do about it, but if you honestly feel your daughters not getting all the requirements she needs and a dirty living environment i would be going for full custody and work out a visitation with her mother through the courts. yes children should be witht heir mothers but if its that bad i wouldnt be thinking twice about it
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
17 (
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Reasonable access for infants
Posted:
1/23/2009 12:45:55 PM
So who supervised you when you first had the child and brought it home? This would mean all new parents mothers or fathers need to be supervised right!
i knew a lot about children and babies growing up, my whole teen years i was taking care of a friends children while she went out and partied, i watched them from 2 months old until the oldest was 6.
but even then my mom was there for me a lot in the first few weeks to make sure i was ok.
my sons father has NEVER held a baby until his son, he still has never changed his diaper or fed him , so why on earth would i leave him alone with him or let him take him anywhere until he can show me he can do it?
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
13 (
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)
Reasonable access for infants
Posted:
1/23/2009 10:55:18 AM
Do you believe that you have more rights morally than he does in terms of access to his child? Why or why not?
Do you believe that new moms should be supervised until someone deems them fit to care for their child? Why or why not?
Do you believe that new dads should be supervised until someone deems them fit to care for their child? Why or why not?
Do you believe a child needs to have a relationship with both parents? Why or why not?
These are questions I would strongly suggest you spend some time contemplating now because the answers to these questions will determine the foundation that is laid in your co-parenting relationship with the father.
As for what is reasonable access for fathers of infants? I believe it is the same answer as to what is reasonable access for mothers of infants. I do believe though that one parent has to be the anchor for a young child and being separated from the anchor overnight or for an extended period of time is not in an infant's best interest. That being said, we do it regularly (those of us who work that is). We pay childcare providers to watch over our babies for on average 8 hours per day....
your questions have no meaning in her situation , or mine for that matter,
there are SOO many other factors you have to take in before even starting to think that way,
if he has only seen his child once , when it was a baby, and he wants to come visit, DAMN right that has to be supervised! and should be until he is comfortable enough to be on his own with the child and knows what to do in certain situations,
my sons father saw him once a week whenever he actually showed up, when my son was 4 months , i left him downstairs with him , i was int he kitchen doing dishes, he had his son laying down and he was crying/freaking out because he wanted to be sat up, his dad didnt know that and just panicked saying omg omg omg omg whats wrong whats wrong over and OVER, until my bf at the time went up to him, picked up my son and just sat him up, he quit crying immediately,
see
dont matter how much time he spends with the child, they should always be supervised until they are both comfortable.
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
11 (
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Reasonable access for infants
Posted:
1/22/2009 1:17:06 PM
once a week for a couple hours visit at your house under your supervision. set a certain day like every sunday, at 4pm until 6pm,
if he is late thats his issue, if he dosnt show up , document it,
DOCUMENT EVERYTHING.
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
3 (
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Kids don't like each other
Posted:
1/20/2009 8:24:44 PM
kids will be kids, and they argue over eachothers things, want what the other has, think one gets favored than the other,
i have an older sister and we fought ALLLLL the time, we HATED each other, couldnt even be in the same room longer then 4 min without arguing,
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
40 (
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whats wrong with me
Posted:
1/17/2009 8:49:16 PM
when he was with you he didnt see anything beyond a friendship and sex, maybe this girl he sees something coming out of it, why stress? theres plenty of other men out there
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
3 (
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Pursuing or stalking?
Posted:
1/17/2009 8:41:54 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
i agree, send her a mixed bouquet of flowers or something with ur name or whatever,
no roses!!!
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
65 (
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I'm a musician and I fell for a deaf girl...
Posted:
1/16/2009 7:24:31 PM
let her read your lyrics, play for her anyways, have it loud so she can feel the vibrations, just because she CANT hear it dosnt mean she wont love wating you do something you love! i personally think you would be selfish for ending it with her just because of this, there are ways to get around it
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
171 (
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Slept with 83 people
Posted:
1/14/2009 10:08:37 PM
Honestly how many of you get your partners screened. I think if all of you were to be 100% honest next to none of you have went with someone to get tested for stds before you had sex? And if you did I doubt it was with every single sex partner you have ever had.
honestly when i was younger i didnt , but every partner EXCEPT ONE in the last 3 years have all been tested. but then again i havent been with many in the last 3 years,
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
163 (
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Slept with 83 people
Posted:
1/14/2009 4:23:58 PM
people do change, and have past's that they arent proud of,
this is EXACTLY why you DO NOT share this type of information, no matter how close you are in a relationship, how much you trust that person to love you for who you are,
the numbers WILL matter, if its one person to 100,
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
4 (
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A Long Time Coming...
Posted:
1/13/2009 10:47:31 PM
whats your issue? either you fully insert it and do the deed or give up?
.kels.
Joined:
10/11/2008
Msg:
44 (
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Would you be offended it....
Posted:
1/13/2009 10:41:28 PM
i ALWAYS tell guys if we talk about dating and what not that i would like them to be tested before sleeping together since i am allergic to condoms, and i also tell them i am more then willing to go get tested with them to make them feel more comfortable about it.
what a lot of people that dont get tested for is HPV!!!! everyone should be getting that test done! especially men since they are the ones that can pass it on
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