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Author
Thread: Is altruism is hard-wired into the brain?
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
25 (
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Is altruism is hard-wired into the brain?
Posted:
11/23/2009 6:45:57 PM
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/07-07-04
Dawkins
" The intervening years since Darwin have seen an astonishing retreat from his individual-centered stand, a lapse into sloppily unconscious group-selectionism … We painfully struggled back, harassed by sniping from a Jesuitically sophisticated and dedicated neo-group-selectionist rearguard, until we finally regained Darwin’s ground, the position that I am characterizing by the label ‘the selfish organism…”
Wilson
"This passage has all the earmarks of fundamentalist rhetoric, including appropriating the deity (Darwin) for one’s own cause. Never mind that Darwin was the first group selectionist. Moreover, unlike The Selfish Gene, The Extended Phenotype was written by Dawkins for his scientific peers, not for a popular audience!"
Wilson
"For example, the ascetics must obtain their food by begging but their religion includes so many food restrictions that they can only accept food from the most pious lay Jain households. Moreover, the principle of non-action dictates that they can only accept small amounts of food from each household that was not prepared with the ascetics in mind. When they enter a house, they inspect the premises and subject the occupants to sharp questions about their moral purity before accepting their food. It is a mark of great honor to be visited but of great shame if the ascetics leave without food. In effect, the food begging system of the ascetics functions as an important policing mechanism for the community. This is only one of many examples, as summarized by Jainism scholar James Laidlaw in a 1995 book whose title says it all: Riches and Renunciation: Religion, Economy, and Society Among the Jains."
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
24 (
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Is altruism is hard-wired into the brain?
Posted:
11/23/2009 6:12:40 PM
In some articles DS Wilson points to , a certain religion that practices mandatory home inspections to ensure compliance with customs and regulations in cooling ands sanitation, and blessings and so on.
these people are the gem traders too, becuase of the compliance to group standards. If you do not conform, you're cut off. So they get total social pressure to be exactly conforming, not individualists interpreting in their different ways.
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
21 (
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Is altruism is hard-wired into the brain?
Posted:
11/23/2009 2:30:41 PM
"The evolution point is spot on imo
I began to think a while ago that some species evolve as group species - ants, bees, and so on - that collectively vy for survival. Others evolve more independently, but still develop, ultimately, for group survival - which is survival of the species.
Any evolutionary biologists want to confirm/deny this?"
*********************************************************************************
Certainly. Group Selectionist, like Darwin,EO Wilson. DS Wilson, et al, agree.
Dawkins lies, and presents his Evolution as "Darwin's Ground". He's actually in direct contradiction of Darwin, who said " It must never be forgotten...(cohesive groups win over non cohesive.).
Cohesiveness is enforced, for the religious, the more one common the belief that "The Big Guy" is ALWAYS watching.
Makes perfect sense, eh ? Religious groups have outcompeted others, others ever since the spread of of the concept.
Think of who are the bankers, diamond traders, and so on. Group morality and a fear of The big Guy Watching allows them within-group trust and security.
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
136 (
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Richard Dawkins fans?
Posted:
11/23/2009 2:26:37 PM
"As long as they spread actual truth, such as by using the Baconian Method, then there is no question of which to choose. The problem is when atheists or Xians abandon the Baconian Method and just make things up."
Even an Muslim council has invited those who feel the oppression of organized religion's demands, to "Burn Your Burka". It's not part of Islmasm. It's a made-up part, which would be recognized as such, through using "clean" reasoning.
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
134 (
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Richard Dawkins fans?
Posted:
11/23/2009 12:37:52 PM
Yeah, because religious tards haven't been trying to pander their bogus creationist bullshit in the classroom....
Sorry. You lose. 1 Douchebag Atheist spreading actual truth vs. Bunch of Christian wacks trying to force their religion into the science classes of children.
Hmm. Which is worse...
As is their right, to attempt. Atheism cannot counter that drive, but Secular Humanist reasoning has triumphed, by asking the religious groups to back away from demands for separate school funding.
In Ontario, a Sunday School teacher won re election based almost solely on killing his opponents's platform of funding them.
The sunday School teacher reasoned with them as a Secular Humanist..."if we split up the money between a thousand applicants, we are all screwed. You DO value public education, don't you ?"
He won a resounding victory in a religious population ! Got them to ask governement NOT to allow funding, even to themselves !
One victory which would never have been won by an Atheistic declaration of "No God Exists", or a declaration from the Sunday School teacher that his own god "exists". Declarations about whose God is God, or "No Gods exist", has little good effect but can drive things into a state of fewer agreements to act rationally, being realized.
Atheism per se has no power for moral or values-based persuasion, to act for common good .
Atheists also are protected through appliecation of Secular Humanist values. Atheism has no values to argue. Not even argument for why to allow it any space or freedom.
Seeking common values in all our society , and relying on that commonality, worked like a charm.
You lose.
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
133 (
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Richard Dawkins fans?
Posted:
11/23/2009 12:31:44 PM
he writes well, and isn't boring. that's certainly not the problem , to me.
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
19 (
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Is altruism is hard-wired into the brain?
Posted:
11/23/2009 12:30:06 PM
From what I can see, it seems to be "hard-wired" in the person, either in the personality, or in the genes. But I do see that it doesn't occur in every member of the same family, and often occurs in one member of many families. So I lean towards personality, rather than genetics.
Hi scorpiomover.
I look at it as MOSTLY cultural artifact at the moment. If a culture breaks down, there would be evidence showing of the genetically hard-wired types, almost non existent, but there nonetheless. Hard wiring would then be more distinguishable from environmental input affect.
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
5 (
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Is altruism is hard-wired into the brain?
Posted:
11/22/2009 4:23:46 PM
if it's to be decided on "feelings", that complicates things unnecessarily. we look mainly at loss/gain interactions.
read about group selection/altuism, that's your topic
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
4 (
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Is altruism is hard-wired into the brain?
Posted:
11/22/2009 4:13:58 PM
This is being well studied. EO Wilson and DS Wilson and various others have gone into in great depth.
An altruistic individual APPARENTLY is at a disadvantage within group, as the selfish can take but not give in return.
However, a group that is altruistic can outcompete non altruistic groups. Basic Darwinism.
Anti- Dawkinsism.
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
130 (
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Richard Dawkins fans?
Posted:
11/22/2009 12:13:10 PM
Funcuz, I don't see the church community going into scientific discussion and telling people what they MUST believe.
Dawkins HAS gone into churches, though, eh ? Not to say they MUST believe, either. He's gone with intention to show something. Into their place of worship.
Next time, please give your supporting evidence.
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
600 (
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New Swine Flu vaccine is dangerous business
Posted:
11/22/2009 11:53:15 AM
did the people claiming FACT that large vaccination spots are merely ballooned small ones, EVER return with an answer ?
I can't see any responses from them.
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
266 (
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted:
11/21/2009 1:45:27 PM
Honestly, if you would just do a little research yourself, it would be clear to you how futile it is arguing for the FDA.
The evidence is overwelming that its extremely slow approval process kills people who would otherwise have been saved, that its astronomically high costs drive up the prices of drugs for every American, by stifling new drug creation, it limits innovation, and that its measures prevent new pharmaceutical companies from forming by dramatically raising the cost of entering the market.
it may be, probably is true that people are lost because of delays. People are also saved by regulations.
Why do you think nobody wants the whole regulation removed..yourself and other extremists excepted ?
I think the FDA is corrupted. However, it's corrupted by "guess who " ? The pharmaceutical companies.
The FDA needs to be watched closely and charges laid, cleaned up and improved.
We have very good reason not to trust the drug companies. And they're the ones doing the corrupting, It's a known fact. They're ruthless . We need the medicines, but they have to be carefully controlled.
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
547 (
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New Swine Flu vaccine is dangerous business
Posted:
11/15/2009 11:52:45 AM
Can I just ask you people this? Why would the US government allow the vaccine to be released if they knew it was going to kill people? Do you really think they would try to kill their own people?
Integrity is your point ?
In late 1984, when a Hong Kong distributor asked Cutter about the newer product, records show that Cutter asked the distributor to "use up stocks" of the old medicine before switching to its "safer, better" product.[3] Several months later, once hemophiliacs in Hong Kong began testing positive for HIV, some local doctors began to question whether Cutter was dumping "AIDS tainted" medicine into less-developed countries.[3] Cutter denied the allegation, claiming that the unheated product posed "no severe hazard" and was in fact the "same fine product we have supplied for years."[3] By May 1985, when the Hong Kong distributor told of an impending medical emergency, asking for the newer product, Cutter replied that most of the new medicine was going to the US and Europe and there wasn't enough for Hong Kong, except for possibly a small amount for the "most vocal patients."[3]
The United States Food and Drug Administration helped to keep the news out of the public. In May 1985, the FDA's regulator of blood products, Dr. Harry M. Meyer Jr., believing the companies had broken a voluntary agreement to withdraw the old medicine from the market, called together officials of the companies and ordered them to comply.[3] Cutter's notes from the meeting indicate that Dr. Meyer asked that the issue be "quietly solved without alerting the Congress, the medical community and the public" while another company noted that the FDA wanted the matter solved "quickly and quietly."[3]
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
110 (
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted:
11/13/2009 2:14:04 PM
Did you see the electrician who was killed performing a dangerous standards inspection in his state that wasn't required in other states?
I read far enough down to see this:
The gruesome death by electrocution shown in the photograph occurred when the man shown tried to steal electrical power from a high voltage cable.
The man killed was not a home inspector. It was a sensationalist tactic (the picture).
I told you that it was a link was to safety procedures, for home and electrical inspectors.
I was 1) seeing if you would check my sources (because I always do), and 2) to see if you would figure out where I was going with it.
Cold, that's so cold :)
Lovinit.
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
527 (
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New Swine Flu vaccine is dangerous business
Posted:
11/13/2009 11:32:59 AM
similar to my doubts about Frogo's assertion. I think perhaps these people have never seen what we're talking about on an older generation. so I ask "what evidence have you got to make that assertion ?
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
106 (
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted:
11/13/2009 11:27:08 AM
A politician will be quick to tell you this new label has saved lives.. but unless you can demonstrate that it has you are full of shit.
unless you can prove what a politician says is true,you are "full of shit" ? where are we - bizzarro forum ?
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
102 (
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted:
11/13/2009 10:51:14 AM
oh, PLEASE ! Can't you leave our embattled Anti-Hero with a shred of dignity ? :)
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
98 (
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted:
11/13/2009 10:02:10 AM
This shit makes me sick to my stomach.
Sick to stomach ? Less people means more for you, less burden on public health if they pass away. Just so long as you're not getting sick due to the injustice , and a smashed-down altruism is rearing it's ugly head. How neurotic that would be, eh ?
To a person who really is into greed, fires is good news, just check your own Christmas lights for safety. Old people kicking off like flies sue to delays by FDA, that is surely good news to The Greedy Man.
You're young still. there's hope.
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
524 (
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New Swine Flu vaccine is dangerous business
Posted:
11/13/2009 9:43:17 AM
attributing the huge marks we saw on our elders, to stretch, that just ain't cuttin it. That's the point.
Also, as was mentioned, it was "scratch with pin", not injection multiple jabs. So I think there is error.
How's that ?
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
522 (
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New Swine Flu vaccine is dangerous business
Posted:
11/13/2009 8:58:47 AM
Versen said
<div class='quote'>Rug Doctor - Can you name what logical fallacy that falls under? Because you can't. It's not a fallacious argument. When a person is young, they are smaller (like a balloon). When the person is older, they are bigger (like an INFLATED balloon)
First, lets examine your own statement, Verzen.
here's fallacious argument:
<div class='quote'> When the person is older, they are bigger (like an INFLATED balloon).
Let's see what's wrong and then you can name the fallacies yourself.
When a person is older, they are not necessarily bigger...haven't you noticed, that in senescence, they also might tend to get "smaller"? What about people who were fat and then slimmed down ? Name that fallacy.
Start here: "Older" is "bigger".
On to the balloons. Can a person's skin be bigger only by the means of stretching, or do cells proliferate, also ?
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
92 (
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted:
11/13/2009 8:22:31 AM
Melamine inclusion to save on costly protein. Melamine contains nitrogen, which is measured by the "protein" test.
As it turns out, the melamine itself was not as dangerous as the further cost saving measure of using "dirty" melamine, which produced the most dangerous affects.
Melamine was added in China and in the U.S. feed distributor's facilities.
Now in Canada, The food safety authority demands full inspection and compliance with our regulations...we send our inspectors to China to help them get it right before they ship. Our experts are over there doing something like Underwriter's lab stuff, helping them set up and helping us avoid unnecesary work and danger.
But right now China is not allowing our food inspectors access to their factories.
They've been found to be using sewage to make stinky tofu, hospital refuse to make soy sauce.
so I think it's QUITE understandable, for us to demand standards and regulations be strictly enforced or "NO SALE".
As for U.S. product > we accept U.S. authorized full inspection..i.e. right down to source, and initial factory for let's say, the wheat that is in a product. Nothing less.
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
90 (
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted:
11/13/2009 4:58:33 AM
"Selfishness beats altruism within groups. Altruistic groups beat selfish groups. Everything else is commentary.
I corrected with the exact wording from Wilson.
I agree it's not an absolute.
You could take it to mean that in every single case it's so, or you could take it as a principle that is shown to be true on larger scale.
Of course, any particular example of single or repeated or even group wide selfish act(s) could "backfire", and the same with altruistic acts.
However, in the context of making a generality, EO Wilson's statement is good.
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
88 (
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted:
11/13/2009 4:44:07 AM
From the outset, the OP offered foolery.
Confusing self-interest with greed. Giving selfishness and altruism values of "good" or "bad".
The subject has been studied by scientists. EO Wilson's conclusion: "Selfishness beats altruism within groups. Altruistic groups beat selfish groups. Everything else is commentary."
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
518 (
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New Swine Flu vaccine is dangerous business
Posted:
11/13/2009 4:17:23 AM
About the size of vaccine scars in older people. The larger scars were due to the way they administered the small pox. It wasn't just a vaccine delivered in a single needle like today. The surface of the skin was scratched several times and then the vaccine was administered to the area. The area reacted, crusted over, and then created a scar. My scar is smaller than my dad's, probably because they scratched a smaller area in younger generations.
I pick this as the most likely correct answer. I had to laugh at the pseudo-scientists' remarks. The assuredness.
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
517 (
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New Swine Flu vaccine is dangerous business
Posted:
11/13/2009 4:04:47 AM
Uh , it's exactly true. Why wouldn't it be ?
Take a balloon and a black marker. Put a dot on the uninflated balloon. Note the size of the dot. Now blow the balloon up. Look at the dot again. It's bigger.
Same idea.
What you state is true about balloons. However, that does not mean it's true about the marks. You offered logical fallacy.
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
508 (
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New Swine Flu vaccine is dangerous business
Posted:
11/12/2009 8:51:51 PM
Results Traits measured by the SCDC were highly heritable in both genders (0.74). Internal consistency was excellent (0.93) and test – retest reliability high (0.81). Discriminant validity between pervasive developmental disorder and other clinical groups was good, discrimination from non-clinical samples was better; sensitivity (0.90), specificity (0.69).
so correct..it is about more than mom or dad having it..I'm not sure what heritability tells us on this one.
interesting to read the study abstract anyway
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
507 (
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New Swine Flu vaccine is dangerous business
Posted:
11/12/2009 8:44:36 PM
Frogo said:
<div class="quote">Your mother's scar is larger because her skin has grown or stretched since then, making the scar larger than it originally was. It had nothing to do with "toxins".
I wonder if you have experience or knowledge that could confirm this in any way ?
You know, it just sounds wrong. Why ? Because I noticed some people from China, younger than I , (some with better skin, for sure :) ) have large marks compared to my own, older, small mark.
My mother had the old "big" mark, as did all her age...as far back as my recall goes..and her age was not advanced at that time. I haven't noticed many ( presumed native NA) middle aged people here in North America, who have the "big"mark. Maybe a person who grew very large, might have a corresponding large(r) mark, but "the average bear" has the small mark now.
Do you have any additional information on this matter ?
Thanks.
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
506 (
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New Swine Flu vaccine is dangerous business
Posted:
11/12/2009 6:45:45 PM
If neither parent is Autistic, then it is a trait that needs some other factor to explain its occurrence.
I'm sure you know that genetics is a bit more complex than 'mum and dad'.
Is not the subject "heritability" ?
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
502 (
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New Swine Flu vaccine is dangerous business
Posted:
11/11/2009 7:29:18 AM
The Canadian government, and more specifically the provinces of Quebec, British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario and Nova Scotia, have suspended the 'normal' seasonal flu shots for anyone under 65 in response to this study.
Alberta in particular, and I'm sure the remainder of the provinces, suspended seasonal flu vaccination because pandemic vaccination was considered more important. Seasonal vaccinations here were offered right up until pandemic vaccine became available. The switch had nothing to do with the study. Cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.
So this part of discussion is about showing Given Reason for suspension of usual seasonal flu shots vs. "Claimed as Actual" Reason vs. Actual Reason for suspension. Correct ?
For background, Frog Eyes, could you post a link to the peer review which dismissed the linkage ? Or tell us what you can see, as to the actual wording of that review ? I haven't seen the review.
Thanks.
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
122 (
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Richard Dawkins fans?
Posted:
11/10/2009 6:08:54 AM
what would you tell your son as the reason you had to take him for a sex assault every week, instead of religion once a week ?
that you thought so highly of Richard Dawkins that you chose as he indicated would be better ?
and if indoctrination is worse than sex assault, then why does Mr. Dawkins not support it being made illegal, as rape is illegal ??
because it might be "good to study it", is the answer.
You tell your son that.
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
121 (
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Richard Dawkins fans?
Posted:
11/10/2009 5:46:46 AM
I don't think that any of his arguments are brilliant.
Not this
Richard Dawkins"
<div class="quote">I suspect that most of the sexual abuse priests are accused of is comparatively mild - a little bit of fondling perhaps, and a young child might scarcely notice that. The damage, if there is damage, is going to be mental damage anyway, not physical damage
Because most of what was documented was on boys 11 to 15..he seems to have preferred to indicated differently, and he seems also to offer suggestion of no physical damage as if hehad never ever heard of STD's.
not so good an argument, to mimiize the damage from the sex assaults MERELY to drive home a point on how dangerous indoctrination can be.
no, not a good mind at work.
if you had to choose this Sunday...take your child to chuurch or an hour, or take your child to be sexually molested for an hour...why, if you had to do that part yourself, or teach bible for an hour...
and the next week and the next week...
how good would Mr Dawkins arguments be to you, when that young man gets big enough to ask you why you did that to him ?
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
4 (
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Multi Level Selection and Evolution.
Posted:
11/9/2009 11:14:02 PM
Dawkin says he is holding Darwin's Ground, maintaining that Natural Selection is only on the individual.
but Darwin explicitly said not to forget group selection.
Dawkins fights those who want other evidence admitted, going as far as to redefine and then redefine "gene", "Atheist", and he also needs to do many many equivocations.
We can compare fields, from Dawkins supporter in Molecular Biology noting Dawkins weaseling in Evolutionary Biology, needing to change meaning of the gene in order to avoid problems in his work. The same is noted by the sociobiologists...he has been working against Group Selection ideas using illicit means... now he call dissenters to his form of Evolution, the equivalent of Holocausr Deniers.
All in order to avoid the inevitable: that scientific study of religion and culture will show an Evolutionary advantage for human GROUPS which practice certain forms of religion, ESPECIALLY those with a BIG GUY always watching.
"Big Guy watching" reduces the tendency to "sin" ( go against group aims, methods, rules) ...and the inter-group altruism forces canalization where more homogeneity in phenotype occurs...more obedient, cohesive group gets to outcompete looser, less altruistic, less directed groups which do not believe there is a Big Guy watching them at all times
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
119 (
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Richard Dawkins fans?
Posted:
11/9/2009 10:53:15 PM
I believe Richard Dawkins is fomenting battles in order to protect himself , as one might see done in a western movie when someone in a saloon needs to escape; so he then starts a roundhouse brawl.
As to attacks on secular society that many religions are engaged in, it is ULTRA STOOPID to return same in kind.
Look at it this way; when the Abrahamist Religions announce their intention to outbreed the infidel, is the Rationalist to attempt to outstupid the Religionist and further degrade the environment ?
Not so swift, eh ? He better talk to them, as friends, rather than join in the stupidity.
The recent example in an Ontario Canada Election, fought almost entirely over Religious School Public Funding, was a perfect example of how a Rationalist can take on every religion's simultaneous attack and win; convince them to cut themselves, for the common good. Atheist screaming for equality could do nothing but further deteriorate the situation.
It needed a smart person to just stick to Secular Humanist values, and show how if we split the Public Funds into schools for every sect and every sect of every sect, it would allow any cult acces to public money...and destroy Public Education. The Public ( a religious public) responded by embracing the idea of not splintering the system into thousand pieces, and in grand fashion dismissed the Conservative ( read Republican)
platform with no futher complications. Screaming for Atheist rights or abolition of Religion would never had done the job.
And the job of rationalist was done by a sSunday School TEacher, Dalton McGuinty. Smart strategy.
Not Dawkins kind of rabble- rousing bullshit. Problem-maker trying to hang on when he's known to other scientists now as 'The Voldemort of Science"
rug doctor
Joined:
11/2/2005
Msg:
2 (
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Multi Level Selection and Evolution.
Posted:
11/9/2009 12:05:03 PM
This statement
"In a Darwinian sense the organism does not live for itself. Its primary function is not even to reproduce other organisms; it reproduces genes, and it serves as their temporary carrier... Samuel Butler's famous aphorism, that the chicken is only an egg's way of making another egg, has been modernized: The organism is only DNA's way of making more DNA. (Sociobiology 1)
altruism . . . [is] self-destructive behavior performed for the benefit of others. (ibid) "
sound like Dawkins ? It's EO Wilson, before Selfish Gene.
Dawkins against Darwin.
who is lying ?
*DARWIN* said
"It must not be forgotten that although a high standard of morality gives but a slight or no advantage to each individual man and his children over the other men of the same tribe, yet that an increase in the number of well-endowed men and an advancement in the standard of morality will certainly give an immense advantage to one tribe over another. A tribe including many members who, from possessing in a high degree the spirit of patriotism, fidelity, obedience, courage, and sympathy, were always ready to aid one another, and to sacrifice themselves for the common good, would be victorious over most other tribes; and this would be natural selection.
Darwin" 1871, 166
Dawkins claims of regained "Darwin's Ground" against the wily Jesuitically ... uhhhh???
Dawkins
"The intervening years since Darwin have seen an astonishing retreat from his individual-centered stand, a lapse into sloppily unconscious group-selectionism We painfully struggled back, harassed by sniping from a Jesuitically sophisticated and dedicated neo-group-selectionist rearguard, until we finally regained Darwins ground, the position that I am characterizing.."
and EO Wilson is the enemy of reason ?
Dawkins describes his battle for Darwins ground ! A total misrepresentation, a lie...and yet he says of DS Wilson and EO Wilson on one of their points made:
"David Sloan Wilson's lifelong quest to redefine "group selection" in such a way as to sow maximum confusion--and even to confuse the normally wise and sensible Edward O. Wilson into joining him--is of no more scientific interest than semantic double talk ever is. What goes beyond semantics, however, is his statement (it is safe to assume that E.O. Wilson is blameless) that "Both Williams and Dawkins eventually acknowledged their error [that the replicator concept provides an argument against group selection]...I cannot speak for George Williams but, as far as I am concerned, the statement is false: not a semantic confusion; not an exaggeration of a half-truth; not a distortion of a quarter truth; but a total, unmitigated, barefaced lie. Like many scientists, I am delighted to acknowledge occasions when I have changed my mind, but this is not one of them. D.S. Wilson should apologize. E.O. Wilson, being the gentleman that he is, probably will"
Excerpt of response from DSWilson :)
Gracious! What a hierarchical guy! Dawkins acts as if he is the No. 2 monkey, kowtowing to the No. 1 monkey (Ed) while dishing it out to the No. 3 monkey (me)! As Ed commented to me after reading Dawkins' comment, "What does he think--that you slipped me a Mickey
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Richard Dawkins fans?
Posted:
11/9/2009 11:49:15 AM
If i may loosely interpret your *point* of why you like Dawkins.. GWBush is to Saddam as Dawkins is to the Religious ?
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Richard Dawkins fans?
Posted:
11/9/2009 11:44:42 AM
Nonetheless, we NEED people like Richard Dawkins, especially in a world that is going completely nuts!
look at the stuff above your post. Dawkins is completely nuts - lying, suppressing science.
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Richard Dawkins fans?
Posted:
11/9/2009 10:53:50 AM
But it is the likes of EOWilson and DSWilson, that are to be likened to the Holocaust deniers ? He suggests isolation from fellowship, public humiliation, shunning of such liars.
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Richard Dawkins fans?
Posted:
11/9/2009 10:50:57 AM
And yet here is Dawkins again
David Sloan Wilson's lifelong quest to redefine "group selection" in such a way as to sow maximum confusion--and even to confuse the normally wise and sensible Edward O. Wilson into joining him--is of no more scientific interest than semantic double talk ever is. What goes beyond semantics, however, is his statement (it is safe to assume that E.O. Wilson is blameless) that "Both Williams and Dawkins eventually acknowledged their error [that the replicator concept provides an argument against group selection]...I cannot speak for George Williams but, as far as I am concerned, the statement is false: not a semantic confusion; not an exaggeration of a half-truth; not a distortion of a quarter truth; but a total, unmitigated, barefaced lie. Like many scientists, I am delighted to acknowledge occasions when I have changed my mind, but this is not one of them. D.S. Wilson should apologize. E.O. Wilson, being the gentleman that he is, probably will.
Excerpt of response from DSWilson :)
Gracious! What a hierarchical guy! Dawkins acts as if he is the No. 2 monkey, kowtowing to the No. 1 monkey (Ed) while dishing it out to the No. 3 monkey (me)! As Ed commented to me after reading Dawkins' comment, "What does he think--that you slipped me a Mickey
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Richard Dawkins fans?
Posted:
11/9/2009 10:14:09 AM
Dawkins vs. Darwin.
who is lying ?
Darwin
"It must not be forgotten that although a high standard of morality gives but a slight or no advantage to each individual man and his children over the other men of the same tribe, yet that an increase in the number of well-endowed men and an advancement in the standard of morality will certainly give an immense advantage to one tribe over another. A tribe including many members who, from possessing in a high degree the spirit of patriotism, fidelity, obedience, courage, and sympathy, were always ready to aid one another, and to sacrifice themselves for the common good, would be victorious over most other tribes; and this would be natural selection."
but Dawkins claims he regained "Darwin's Ground" against the wily Jesuitically ... uhhhh???
Dawkins
The intervening years since Darwin have seen an astonishing retreat from his individual-centered stand, a lapse into sloppily unconscious group-selectionism We painfully struggled back, harassed by sniping from a Jesuitically sophisticated and dedicated neo-group-selectionist rearguard, until we finally regained Darwins ground, the position that I am characterizing..
and EO Wilson is the enemy of reason ?
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Richard Dawkins fans?
Posted:
11/8/2009 11:15:18 PM
About Dawkins. Why would you suppose he thinks others who do not endorse his particular favoured flavour of Evolution should be compared to Holocaust deniers...and they get prison sentences or minimum the very strong social penalty of shunning.
He might have said they were like Flat Earth folks. Why demonize other respected scientists with comparisons to the Holocaust denier, one who is denying such an atrocity ...when one is denying Dawkins ?
Or perhaps he really does know how to compare atrocity with atrocity ? Still, I think that's a bit strong, even he is just being overly humble :)
Naturally, to Dawkins, Evolution IS what he thinks it is - and what he does not accept, is not Evolution. People not agreeing well enough for him, are then heretic - and subject to social punishment as called for.
I think that is one fine bit of outrageous showboating... it's actually disturbing, that he indicates social punishment for not agreeing on an intellectual matter is a good way to handle things.
here is a passage from DS WILSON containing a sample of Mr. Dawkins
Consider his response to my recent article with Edward O. Wilson in American Scientist magazine titled "Evolution 'For the Good of the Group'"
*******************************************************************************
Genes Still Central: David Sloan Wilson's lifelong quest to redefine "group selection" in such a way as to sow maximum confusion--and even to confuse the normally wise and sensible Edward O. Wilson into joining him--is of no more scientific interest than semantic double talk ever is. What goes beyond semantics, however, is his statement (it is safe to assume that E.O. Wilson is blameless) that "Both Williams and Dawkins eventually acknowledged their error [that the replicator concept provides an argument against group selection]...I cannot speak for George Williams but, as far as I am concerned, the statement is false: not a semantic confusion; not an exaggeration of a half-truth; not a distortion of a quarter truth; but a total, unmitigated, barefaced lie. Like many scientists, I am delighted to acknowledge occasions when I have changed my mind, but this is not one of them. D.S. Wilson should apologize. E.O. Wilson, being the gentleman that he is, probably will.
*******************************************************************************
Gracious! What a hierarchical guy! Dawkins acts as if he is the No. 2 monkey, kowtowing to the No. 1 monkey (Ed) while dishing it out to the No. 3 monkey (me)! As Ed commented to me after reading Dawkins' comment, "What does he think--that you slipped me a Mickey?"
hehe :) I like that DS Wilson. "Stealth Religion" is nice term , too.
Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sloan-wilson/truth-and-reconciliation_b_190008.html&cp
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Multi Level Selection and Evolution.
Posted:
11/8/2009 10:21:58 PM
The battle in Evolutionary Biology, over the levels selection may occur on, and the relative importance to evolution, of selection on each level, has been back-and-forth to extremes, and produced some drama, too.
Here's a quick history by DS Wilson, one of the influencial figures.
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/07-07-04
I think he makes a good reviewer !
Dawkins and the team of DSWilson and EO Wilson "had it out" pretty good ...funny stuff !
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In nature, can sub-optimal be optimal ?
Posted:
7/6/2009 5:45:33 PM
Sloths have a running land speed of about 1.2mph and this 'speed' helps them to avoid jaguars and other predators in their environment because it helps them blend in with their surroundings.
Being among the strongest members of your species can give a false sense of security resulting in a greater likelihood of getting picked off by predators.
Its surprising what can be considered sub-optimal or optimal.
Thanks for offering an amusing and off-beat angle on the subject .
Going with the subject raised differentiating srengths of individual vs. strengths of group or species ;
I wonder if we could consider orienting behaviour in some schooling fish . Presupposing that some kinds of fish orient themselves with the other fish, would an individual possessing less than optimal ability in that skill, have "natural leadership potential" and perhaps thereby either the individual or the group may gain in some way ? The dumbest is the leader ?
Or... there is an advantage in having some members less "optimized" than others ?
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Did You Ever Have a Dream In Which You Knew You Were Dreaming?
Posted:
6/6/2009 3:50:01 AM
Hi. Mr Logic.
When practicing meditation lying down, I went to sleep.
fro several days I had been experiencing waking up at night by something, but being unable to move, and then falling asleep again.
This time, I followed some advice, and tried saying a mantra, then trying to fully wake up.
I might ad that I had once before been unable to fully wake, though conscious to some degree. I also had experinced what some call astral projection.
anyway, this time I said the mantra as suggested, and then woke up. I then knew what had wakened me several nights, as I heard lots of noise from the front door as if someone was breaking in.
I roused myself, wrapped myself in a blanket and started down the stairs. I could not really see, as my eyes ( eyelids) were "so tired", but I could hear clearly.
I shouted out in case someone was really breaking in, hoping they might get scared off, instead of me having to deal with someone at that time.
Halfway down, I realized that my feet were not touching the stairs.
I pushed down on the low stairwell ceiling to get my feet to touch the stairs, and then immediately realized that this was NOT a waking state.
Iooked down at my feet.
they were just fine, and not touching the floor , for good reason - because I was still lying down in bed.
I did investigate the noises...a milk delivery van outside, and they were slamming milk crates down onto the metal door in the sidewalk where deliveries go into the basement of the store next door.
I've experineced different levels of consciousness, since then, where I do take note of, or make comment on, my state of consciousness while still asleep.
the door ( or door disappeared) is one of the symbols regularly present in such states of consciousness, for some people...me included.
To one of your points; I thnkk the brain does concoct a story to match the actual circumstances or something else which is 'normal...such as when you are switching brain wave type, the "slipping" felling of movement is tranformed into a dream of falling..falling backwards, off a swing. that's a common one for me, If I don't wake up, then it goes further, and is not transformed into an afterthought of a "dream of falling".
So I think the "dream" is concocted upon waking, to match what the feeling of slipping or falling that happened.
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Do any men know the difference between being in control and being controlling?
Posted:
6/4/2009 10:05:07 PM
I believe a man should have more control in a relationship than a woman but not be controlling. Does that make sense? The answer to world peace ladies is to keep all the men in this world happy. If we are keeping them happy then we really are in COMPLETE CONTROL! Think about it!
I wonder if perhaps "dominant" would be a better description of what you are talking about.
I'd say that there is a dominant/submissive aspect to every relationship.
As well, in particular areas, one partner may be dominant, and in other areas, the other partner is dominant.
I'll give you an example; an Ex of mine could get the best response when complaining at a store about a product. She received train and bus fare, for her return visits, and her time paid...from Zellers, when they made repeat errors. I've never had that kind of response.
Someone takes the dominant role in every situation. I don't take it personally; it's necessary for the person best equipped and most familiar, to take the lead.
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In nature, can sub-optimal be optimal ?
Posted:
6/4/2009 9:26:07 PM
Are you trying to get your own thread deleted or something ?
Nobody is attacking you ...tone it down and stop lashing out at responses you don't like.
This isn't a scientific question but rather a philosophical question. It's not semantics to use proper definitions nor is the onus on me to rephrase your question for you. You asked us to answer and we did. If you refuse to discuss the matter as you yourself presented it then I suggest you ask the moderators to shut this thread down. Or , if you like , I can do it on your behalf if you wish to continue baiting the respondents.
Nobody is attacking me, and I have not attacked anyone.
I don't know why you are behaving like this. You should try, perhaps, to moderate your nasty quidnunc personality. Might that not be a good idea ?
Thank you for your cooperation in making this place better for everyone.
Rug Doctor
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In nature, can sub-optimal be optimal ?
Posted:
4/3/2009 11:11:29 PM
Optimal is a complex concept. There are many factors at work here. In your example - "high velocity" predators, the animal has to be fast enough to eat on a regular basis. But not go so far down that path that it makes sacrifices in other areas - for example, possibly a metabolism that's unsustainably fast in lean times.
And there are always competing strategies at work - maybe the animal doesn't have to be as fast if it were a little smarter, or a little better camoflauged. Those types of tradeoffs are always at work in a population - and it's even more dynamic when you remember that the prey is evolving simultaneously.
So no, I don't think evolution pushes an animal toward an optimum in a specific narrow trait. It's more what you term Pareto optimal. There may be many strategies for survival in a given environment, and different animals will occupy something approaching a Pareto front in their adaptation to the environment. From your example - cheetahs and lions occupy much of the same range and have a very similar basic body configuration. But have very different strategies.
Thank you for an excellent answer ! I find the Pareto mention educational.
Rug Doctor
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In nature, can sub-optimal be optimal ?
Posted:
4/3/2009 11:05:32 PM
What is "works", if not "does" ? When you say " thing that works" : what is the difference between saying that and saying " thing that does 'x' " ?
Rug Doctor
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In nature, can sub-optimal be optimal ?
Posted:
4/3/2009 11:01:13 PM
But it doesn't select for optimal. It selects against sub-optimal.
If we substitute selection by humans for Natural Selection, it takes away the problem you are naming.
Suppose we were doing the selecting, then.
The end result of selecting "against" is selecting "for". We select against, let's say, a genetic disease, and we therefore select "for" a strain without the disease. Or we can select "for" animals that have larger clutch size, or better hatch rate, can't we ?
So really, what you see as a problem in this question is not a problem at all.
Rug Doctor
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In nature, can sub-optimal be optimal ?
Posted:
4/3/2009 10:30:05 PM
Please note , those so into semantics, that I did not, in my example, say "optimal for survival of species".
I was referring, as an example, to "highest velocity"..in regard to attacking prey - not "optimal for survival of the species".
I think some people got it and answered very well. My thanks to them. And to the critics. I know there is a problem with the question !
But it's not as nonsensical as you make it to be.
Rug Doctor
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In nature, can sub-optimal be optimal ?
Posted:
4/3/2009 10:17:27 PM
And I'm not attacking him. I know that there is probably a better way to ask the question. but I also find some of his sentences to be nonsensical, and parts of his answer illogical.
Some people gave great answers .Why don't you try to re-phrase the question, if you understand what I meant by the question ?
I think you two people, so into semantics, should take another look at what I wrote in the example. I did not say "optimal for the species survival" .
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