are women playing GOD when they become pregnant chat & forums.

To me, this thread is looking more like a bigass case of SOME men's overgrown, overblown case of p*ssy/womb ENVY.

And that was what prompted my question.

Despite his being an "Alpha", AND having enormous wealth and power, what would that make a man that is more desirable than such a wealthy and powerful Alpha?

What label do we give to that man?

I'd say Uber-Alpha.

But I prefer the title of King personally

quote from 2irish1: A straw man is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic.

quote from 2irish1 : Claiming to be greater than Hugh Hefner is a strawman post to deflect from the origional debate

quote from mysticaires : What you find desirable in a female is just your own personal preference, and can hardly be extended to the prototype of what all alpha men desire in a mate. For one, your opinion that you are an alpha is a claim that is impossible for the rest of us to verify. Two, it's not hard to see a million examples of well-known alphas who choose women that are not intelligent or independent. Case in point: Hugh Hefner.

Hef has all the traits found commonly in the Alpha type. I'm firmly convinced though, that his prestige and power (not to mention wealth) and affluence in general is what drives his "cool points" up a few notches over the rest. However, strip him of his affluence and power and prestige and he'd still be very Alpha, but let's face it...in a pit of other Alphas he'd be a castoff compared to much younger counterparts.

Without his "extras", Hef would be a very lonely Alpha indeed.

Are you saying you are more desirable than an Alpha?

For the purpose of a relationship? I am surprised. Have you always wanted a relationship with someone? Your actions don't put that out there for us females to see that. You don't reveal much of yourself at all....except smugness.
Do you really want to be humanized? Are you really relationship material is first to be examined.

Hmmmm...interesting...(pondering of what I know of verityone...oh, god help me...)
Well...1st...I would ask why you have this desire to subjugate women, humiliate them, call them names and disregard their opinions...
If I can get a satisfactory answer to that...and it is satisfactory as in I understand...not necessarily accepting it.... and that you have an on and off switch in which I get to use to shut you up when your abuse gets to me...THEN we will see if you have other desirabilities that make you better than an true Alpha male.
I see you have a temper that needs to be tuned up when you get emotional....

The "brass tacks" are that a fertile MAN engaging in recreational sex only becomes a FATHER and child by CHOICE

As you say...prove it. If you can't, then it's a strawman...

INCORRECT. THERE WOULD BE NO MOTHER AND CHILD IF TWO PEOPLE HADN'T MADE/CREATED/CONCEIVED A CHILD TOGETHER.

Latest survey (STILL) says? One egg + one sperm = conception.

verity - you never answered the question

what do you want if not to walk away scott free....thereby imposing your WILL

You want her to have an abortion is what I'm gathering from your post above.

You want to kill or abandon your children.

That's it in a nutshell. So biol it down to brass tacks.

But only women are allowed to OPT out of the consequences of an insemination (intentional or unintentional), and to force their will upon the man.

So whats the solution.

So whats the solution. To have the man force his will on her.

Refusing to pay CS is forcing your will on both the mother and the child. Is that right?

Isn't that what the men are saying the are ENTITLED to?

Are you really trying to argue that you are more of an alpha than Hugh Hefner? LOL.

The alpha males gain the resources and the power through whatever combination of characteristics have allowed them to climb to the top of the herd.

This isn't really about YOU anyway.

quote from mysticaries : What you find desirable in a female is just your own personal preference, and can hardly be extended to the prototype of what all alpha men desire in a mate. For one, your opinion that you are an alpha is a claim that is impossible for the rest of us to verify. Two, it's not hard to see a million examples of well-known alphas who choose women that are not intelligent or independent. Case in point: Hugh Hefner.

quote from mysticaries : I beg to differ. Most women can easily discern who the alpha males are. They are the ones women flock to.

quote from Belle Lass : All in all....you are not an Alpha...sorry...

quote from Belle Lass : ****...then what do you consider yourself to be? An Alpha?

whether or not you are an 'alpha' is impossible for the rest of us to verify, especially with the unimpressing evidence you have provided so far. For someone so meticulous about asking people to provide PROOF for their claims, that is truly weak.

If that's the case, there's a whole lotta chiefs in this world....

So in other words, you're not pathetic? That's your criteria for an alpha?

Actually, it's much more than that.
The thread has been completely derailed by women, with their strawmen antics, into "men wanting to force abortion on women" and "men only thinking about how to avoid giving us money". "Men don't have a conscience".

Patently false.
Strawman.

There are women on here that specifically say the money is for the maintenance of the child. The father's provision towards the child.

Scraping, sucking, chemically inducing. What difference does it make. It's still removing the child from your life support. You are quibbling.

That's nice but this thread is about MEN not wanting to be responsible. That's the premise.

Please quit irresponsibly and inaccurately repeating this.

Vasectomies should NOT be viewed as being reversible, but as permanent.

It is both difficult and expensive to try and reverse one, and even with all the wonders of modern medicine they turn out to be reversible only 50% of the time.

Bullshit fallacy.

It's a pimps and ho's society. Who made it that way. Who wanted it that way.

Sport ****ing. You can watch it on TV. Now press that remote. You invented everything didn't ya ....

so you should be allowed to TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE CONSEQUENCES

That's nice but this thread is about MEN not wanting to be responsible. That's the premise.

aka deflecting

But don't forget, the consequence is always the greatest to the child when adults are most interested in themselves.

What about the men who keep assuming that because abortion exists, it's somehow a viable option for ALL women

All the men who can abandon their children with NO GUILTY CONSCIENCE raise your hands.

Oh and that would explain the millions of men who walk away from kids they fathered in a committed relationship.

Are men playing the DEVIL when they abandon their children or pressure women into abortion.

Just had to throw that in for laughs lol.

What you find desirable in a female is just your own personal preference,

Most women can easily discern who the alpha males are. They are the ones women flock to.

All in all....you are not an Alpha...sorry...

then what do you consider yourself to be? An Alpha?

Not necesarily...a willing Alpha

is happy with a hard-working woman who produces

But, he will not tolerate a woman who thinks she is equal to him in every way...including dominance.

Then define what kind of 'dominance'you are referring to.Physical dominance? Intellectual dominance? Charasmatic dominance?
You're avoiding the question. Please give me your definition of dominance and then evidence for your opinion that dominant men seek dominant women.

Wrong. Parental investment meant that men sought to impregnate as *many* women as possible, not just the highest quality ones

Weaker people are usually drawn (minimally) to a type that they won't fear, and (maximally) to a stronger type, but truly dominant people are only drawn to each other.

On what do you base this opinion? Most studies that I have seen referenced show that high status men tend to marry less 'successful' (in terms of career) women,

most women 'marry up' in status.

that the more successful the career woman, the less likely she is to marry

verity, all of this is just your opinion. No scienfic or otherwise back-up for your rhetoric.

You have a way of expressing an opinion like you are a University science professer...

but when you look at the meat of what you are saying and bring it into layman's language,

all it is just how YOU feel about it from within YOU.

It's just a personal opinion.

You might be dating women who are dating out of desperation, and the idea is to, "keep a man".

Yes, I've met more than a few of those... and it makes me run the other way when I encounter one... Needy, desperate woman are often the ones who are the easiest to acquire....

However, I want a woman who instead, wants me for me, rather than just because I'm available....

I want a woman who is a challenge to keep

and will work as hard to keep me as I will to keep her.

But she has to want to keep me because I interest her

So most of the time I'd just meet a girl and we'd end up in bed the same night. Generating enough chemistry to get a woman into bed was no problem, any fool can do that....

Simple, I wanted a woman who was more than just a life support system for a vaj....

What kind of an idiot who was having sex for recreational purposes only, (in the context of the debate here) who would claim to (also) not want a child, have ANY excuse to only find out 3 months that she was pregnant?

It's quite easy to not realise you're pregnant. There could be other reasons why you missed a period. It's not uncommon in young women to not realise they were pregnant until it was too late for an abortion.

Whether that makes them idiots or not still does not mean practising safe sex is entirely up to them.

A first-time mother won't feel a child "kicking" until her 20th week of gestation - or about five months.

I can only surmise that you are playing the troll in this thread by this and many other statements you've made.

Obviously you have no knowledge of polycycstic ovary syndrome or the vagaries of a woman's monthly cycle.

There are also plenty of examples where a woman didn't know she was pregnant until after three months - too late for an abortion.

It's not flippant, it's just that I don't have any power to change laws, nor do most women here - so what do you want us to say (besides we get that you feel it's unfair, which has been said many times)?

To a true Alpha male, the "submission" of a Beta female is worthless and meaningless.

He moves slowly and deliberately with no wasted motions. He stands proudly erect, relaxed in all situations. He is generous, outgoing and cheerful with everyone, for he has no worries. The Alpha Male has confidence that he will get everything he wants. Petty problems and inconveniences are ignored and accepted without outbursts of anger or emotion..

Instinctually for survival reasons, females seek an Alpha Male who can protect them and will help them raise strong healthy offspring.

YES....the lowly educated who simply pick up some psychobabble magazine (Cosmo) and read "10 Traits of the Alpha Personality" are engaged in arguing a topic when they lack a true understanding of, and therefore form arguments absent of reason.

Alpha males (in social order) are NOT attracted by "beta" females...nor are they attracted by "feminine weakness"....they ARE attracted to Alpha females....OR call them what you wish...by females who ARE also dominant over other females...AND other males.

What one may call a dominant personality....by another's standards...that personality is quite "submissive".

There have always been and will always be those who seek to understand the "realities" as opposed to the "touchy feelies" of life...and the 2 simply do not mix. Trying to put someone who values scientific reasoning and logic together with someone who just wants to "feel" good about whatever they're doing, or have, is a recipe for an unhappy relationship. IE. there are "thinkers, and "feelers"....and it doesn't take much to get the balance out of whack.

You certainly have argued that men have no responsibility for their part in procreation, which is unusual.

Even small children understand how babies are made.

Do you see the total selfishness and control issues that some of you men have?

You men have taught our baby girls to be promiscuous and that it is OK to be that way by hammering their moms with your propaganda of "NO sex...no man is going to want you...or a man is going to leave you...

I'm confused as to what verity is actually arguing about.

We all concede that pregnancy can occur when people have sex.

What WE are saying, and what SOME women choose to ignore, is that Pregnancy DOES NOT EQUAL childbirth.

Women have an ability to absolve parental ability AFTER pregnancy, while men have no such ability, and the unilateral decision of the woman can impose her decision on the man.

This inequity is what myself, verity and others are against.

So, verity, do you use birth control ie condoms or are you saying that is a woman's responsibility and if the birth control fails, the resulting pregnancy has nothing to do with you?

Who is blinded by delusion or zealotry?

I know for a fact that I'm neither. And in the end, that's all that matters.

No. There is no false premise. Pregnancy is ALWAYS a CLEAR and DISTINCT possibility when two people have sex, regardless if contraception is used or not and assuming the two people are fertile. That is a FACT.

The title of this thread is "Are women playing God when they become pregnant".
Don't want to assist a woman in "playing GOD"? Keep your penis out of her vagina.
Avoid the inherent risk of fatherhood, subjugation, abuse and being controlled by a woman's vagina.

It is just so friggin easy, Men keep you pecker in your pants. Now why is that so hard to do ???

What I'd like to see is men have the option to opt out of the financial obligation of an unwanted consequence, due to someone else's will being forced onto them.

I'd like to see PCH show up at my door with a check. The ideal is always a great thing. I'd post a thread saying I want to win a sweepstakes -

For those women who don't care and are going to do whatever they want regardless of how men hope it is - at least realize that you can't have it all and go in prepared.

Again, being that the woman is the one who becomes pregnant, it should be her that should be practicing the highest degree of due diligence to prevent pregnancy. Play pass the buck as much as you want, if you're in control of your body then be in control of it from the get go. If you have a guy who's involved and is willing to be part of your ultimate decisions where your body is concerned after the fact, great...if not, have a back up plan whereby you can take care of yourself and a child you should choose to keep.

Biology is what it is, and no one can, or should, be forced to have an abortion.

And the guy did make the baby

A contract would give men equal opportunity, if he managed to find a woman stupid and irresponsible enough to have sex with him, and not hold him responsible for an accidental pregnancy.

If the woman asked the guy to wear a condom and he didnt, then he needs to accept the responsibility.

I think I would be more sympathetic to men in this situation if it weren't for the hate I see spewing from some here.

Men also know that women have the right to choose whether or not to continue with a pregnancy.

False.
A man IS NOT GIVEN the option to mitigate the outcome.

Yes, he has the option to REFUSE TO PARTICIPATE IN AN ACTIVITY THAT HAS AN INHERENT RISK OF REPRODUCTION.

A signed contract between the man and woman before engaging in any type of sexual activity........but not only must it be signed by both parties, it should be signed and witnessed by a Judge. That way, the man/woman cannot lie about whether or not it is their signature. The contract would outline everyone's rights, responsibilites, obligations and expectations.

For most of the men I've dated, that would certainly wither their erection in a quick hurry.

There are no logical grounds to pursue another for one's own reluctance, neglect, ignorance, sloth, or abscence of due diligence.

disagree. I think it is called accountability. Two people are involved in reluctance, neglect, ignorance, sloth or absence of diligence. Unless of course deception plays a role...

Logical grounds call for equal accountability.

Wouldn't it be a great world for the men if they can just go and screw anyone they want without ANY connection to the women, or just date here and there and fuuk who ever they want and have ZERO responsibilities of any outcome.

I think it has gotten to the point the man, not all and not most, but allot of men who don't want to be responsible for their actions

A consent to sex by a man, is no more an agreement to make a baby, than consent by a woman to have sex, is an agreement to make a baby.
I asked very clearly to give one of two answers.
1- Agree
2- Disagree

Moot. This is a perfect example of an either/or logical fallacy, also called a false dilemma or false dichotomy, which involves a situation in which only two alternatives are considered, when in fact there are other options... [snip]...is used in an attempt to force a choice ("If you are not with us, you are against us.")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

Pregnancy is a direct consequence of TWO people having sex and whether protection is used or not and WHETHER ONE AGREES OR DISAGREES with it's premise, the inherent risk of a conception occurring during a sexual encounter is a reality and a well known FACT

to pretend otherwise is delusional at best and bordering on insanity at worst.

when anyone attempts to deny a FACT (egg + sperm = conception), you have to assume that you are dealing with people who are delusional or blinded by their zealotry - either way, it's a waste of time, at least it is to me.

Our biological/physical differences are a reality and a FACT that goes to the very core of our humanity and to attempt to make this (and encourage others) into an US vs THEM is beyond contemptuous in my opinion.

Why should men have the same rights when they don't have the same responsibility.

Biologically - THERE IS NO EQUALITY

I think you have womb envy.

If someone invented a womb that could be implanted in men (which they probably will soon enough), men would take full advantage, have babies out of wedlock

and demand child support if possible, deny access to the child and spend child support on beer and pay per view porn and you know it - no question about it.

Well wait a few years men ... soon the women won't need you AT ALL. Just a good replacement for a dill doe when the mood hits. Women will be choosing the sperm of THE BEST, women continue to take over traditionally men's jobs. We can get credit, buy homes, and pretty much don't need leaches in our lives.

Men doing opposite of what women are doing, we are making ourselves indispensable in society and you are making yourselves dispensable.

There's nothing in particular you want from women in this thread? So what is the point of this beyond stating our individual cases/opinions?

Yes. What's the bottom line here - what overall do you want from women that we can control?

2 MONTHS LATER: Women finds out she is pregnant

Intent is to perform an act.

Abortion is a big freakin' deal

If men don't produce babies, then pray tell us---who does it?

If a man gets drunk with a woman, and they both, then, get arrested for drunk driving, do you think that the woman should go to jail but the man shouldn't?

All of your collective arguments are strawmen.

Y'know what? This ISN'T about any debate or discussion for you, is it?

It's about displaying your resentment, your damage, your fear and hatred of women.

Dude, I'm sorry for whatever the hell f*cked with your head so bad, but it's not my problem.

Conception is an inherent risk of heterosexual, penis/vagina sexual intercourse. The risk can be markedly minimized by birth control methodolgy, sterilization or infertility of the female) due to her being COMPLETELY passed through menopause or having undergone a COMPLETE hysterectomy)

Is it fair or equal??? Doesn't matter. Moot.

Is there some action we're taking here about this or are we just venting?

If we're venting, that's fine. How long are we planning on venting before we feel we made enough noise?

A consent to sex by a man, is no more an agreement to make a baby, than consent by a woman to have sex, is an agreement to make a baby.

A consent to drive by a man, is no more an agreement to have an accident, than consent by a woman to drive a car, is an agreement to have an accident.

What is at issue here?

Men who knock up women they wish they hadn't

producing babies they wish they hadn't

Unless you really think it would be desirable to be able to force abortions on women who don't want them

either take the necessary steps to ensure that you don't fertilize an egg or suck it up.

he is not the one in control of pregnancy itself or the longevity of same. If a woman does not wish to become pregnant, continue to be pregnant, chooses to keep a child or go the adoption route, it is soley her decision and her responsibility and she should be the one bearing any associated costs. This, of course, is with respect to what amounts to recreational sex as there is generally no intent on the part of the man to become a father. Inside a marriage, which I believe should be the criteria for intent of procreation and amounts to a contract, then, yes, both parties should be held equally accountable financially because there is intent or the possibility of intent by both parties.

But making a baby is an INHERENT RISK of consentual sex

A consent to sex by a man, is no more an agreement to make a baby, than consent by a woman to have sex, is an agreement to make a baby.

My answer???
It is not the issue at hand, CS is. But, I will answer.
Because she is the "President" or "Prime Minister" of her body and can make arbitrary decisions that the people don't have the right to. It came with the package.

Just like I cannot force anything upon your body if you don't want me to.

In your next life, work to become a female and then you can make decisions based on life or death....like your President of the USA or the Prime Minister of Canada...and women.

Now...quit that strawman stuff and cherry-picking

Verity. You have no logic.

You do not understand business law as it pertains to partnerships.

Entering into a partnership a man assumes all risks involved in that partnership.

Your DNA in your illegitimate brat is proof that you entered into a verbal contract with the brat's mother for a sexual partnership...

Also get him to explain how verbal contracts are just as valid, and enforceable in court as are written contracts.

You seem to not realize that having sex with a woman is legally entering into a business partnership with her...making you 100% responsible for all debts resulting from that partnership.

Hire an attorney, ask him whether I am right about this

If you do enter into sexual partnerships, you will be held accountable for all expenses which result from those partnerships. It may not be fair, but it is the law,and it will not soon change.

A man cannot assume a risk he is incapable of.

Risk of pregnancy?? Incapable?

Agreeing to have sex, is not agreeing to becoming a parent, for EITHER gender

Guess what.Setting aside sex with the same gender, or a female past reproductive phase of life...reproduction is an INHERENT RISK of penis/vagina sexual intercourse.

Why do you see EVERYTHING that isn't kissing your arse as a 'strawman'?

A consent to sex by a man, is no more an agreement to make a baby, than consent by a woman to have sex, is an agreement to make a baby.

No...they're not half of the DNA equation or the responsibility by any means, are they.

It's not "consent to make" that is the issue, it's assuming the risk.

When you insert your d|ck into a v@gina, you assume the risk and potential financial responsibilities.

did you EVER graduate from Kindergarden?

Nothing is equal...ever.

All alleged rights are just really privleges which can be bestowed, or withdrawn.

Verity...Women do NOT make babies. Men,and women together make babies, which women carry, and deliver.

A consent to sex by a man, is no more an agreement to make a baby, than consent by a woman to have sex, is an agreement to make a baby.

It is not the issue at hand, CS is. But, I will answer.
Because she is the "President" or "Prime Minister" of her body and can make arbitrary decisions that the people don't have the right to. It came with the package.
Just like I cannot force anything upon your body if you don't want me to.
In your next life, work to become a female and then you can make decisions based on life or death....like your President of the USA or the Prime Minister of Canada...and women.

Are you willing to pay higher taxes for the rest of your life just because I choose to make babies no one wants

WHAT specific rights should men have that they now lack?

Also if I may say, you are too beautiful to date a bald man. You deserve a guy who is way better looking!!

But this issue isn't about who's fault it is that she's pregnant, it's about the fact that men lose all of their rights once she is.

This is where I think you are wrong about what this thread is about. This is certainly about who fault it is, apparently to a lot of men, it is only the woman's fault if a pregnancy happens

I support common sense, and logic.

In this case, it happens to be on the side of the women.

This thread is yet another instance when a woman feels entitled to be provided for.

Strawman. The issue is CHILD SUPPORT for the CHILD that wasn't aborted, as would be the man's preference. Support for the woman has nothing to do with the topic.

Bringing in a similar but different and weaker statement to argue against is a classic strawman tactic. Thought you knew that?

I am VERY lucky that I not only like alpha men, but I also attract them.

Men aren't under the delusion that they are entitled to be in complete""POWER AND CONTROL" of a woman's body.

Men have been under that dilusion for thousands and thousands of years now........not only have they demonstrated in the past that they want power and control of a woman's body and her choices/decisions, they've wanted to control her right to work, her right to equal pay, her right to child support, her right to not have sex forced upon her while dating or in a marriage, her right to own land, her right to vote, her right to birth control, her right to not be physically abused in a marriage, her right to be valued(dollar value) for the contributions she makes in a relationship, etc., etc., etc.,

Verityone.....it is you who is dilussional and very much lacking in comprehension.

This thread has NOTHING to do with whether a man wants to be a father or not, it's whether or not a man wants to pay child support.

I understand that there are men who get "tricked" by girls who say they are on birth control etc.

Either way, logic just doesn't cut it.

the issue is stop blaming women for your CHOICE to have sex.

The moral of the story is that equality is only important to many women when they are on the receiving end of inequality

Other than that, if women have the upper hand, men are supposed to shut the hell up

To me, it looks like I'm forced to make a choice of three difficult options

Let's face it, some men will always find something to whine about and scream out that they are the victim. If they are not in complete "POWER AND CONTROL" of a woman's body......

......they simply will NEVER be happy or contented.

I avoid men like that at all costs.

The old fashioned way was to keep the penis and just prevent sperm production.

Seriously, I can understand to a certain extent where some of the gentlemen here are comng from...but then there are some who are being WAAY over simplistic.

Still wish I had some of those lamb castration bands....

Verity, why you attempt to bolster monkey..... I am going to refrain from answering your hostile posts directed at me.

You and monkey can rage all you want against marriage but it does not change the facts.

If you really want to counter my argument come up with a number of bachelors that are on equal footing with the ones I have mentioned. There may be one or two, but the vast majority of very successful men are wed.

I dont want to get remarried as I have done it once before and that was enough for me. The reason being is I trusted him with my heart and he used all I told him about my vulnerabilities against me to hurt me continiously. Now I value my idependence and never want to loose that again

Yes, I do agree there is an injustice here

It takes two to create pregnancy

Soooo...what do you suggest???

You just whine about rights. I hate whiners.

Adult women can make choices for themselves

You men won't say what you are willing to do.

Until you can tell me what you WANT as far as rights in the choice of being pregnant or not,