Notice: Forums will be shutdown by June 2019

To focus on better serving our members, we've decided to shut down the POF forums.

While regular posting is now disabled, you can continue to view all threads until the end of June 2019. Event Hosts can still create and promote events while we work on a new and improved event creation service for you.

Thank you!

Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Politics  >      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 tallskier
Joined: 5/20/2005
Msg: 30
view profile
History
Neoconism Is Alive and WellPage 2 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)

Read Strauss, unlike Jedi HE is the one whose philosophy the neo cons are studying. He is the father of the movement.


MG has read Strauss, therefore we all must have.

MG believes Strauss is the father of neoconism, therefore, everyone who resembles a neocon to MG must follow Strauss.

Interesting "logic".
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 32
view profile
History
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/21/2008 5:54:07 PM
Maybe we're wrong MG, maybe Neocon is too soft?

How about a new term for the people like Bush, Rove, Cheney et al.

Neocronies?

Kind of a nice ring to it.

You don't have to have a degree in science, to run Nasa, Neocrony.

You can run FEMA if you've run a horse show Brownie, Neocrony.

Hey, I can almost hear music. . .
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 34
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/22/2008 8:19:13 AM
According to a neat little survey on the Christian Science Monitor website called "Are you a Neocon?", Teddy Roosevelt and Reagan were neocons. However, I think Kristol et al ushered in a new era of that philosophy, as MG is trying to get across. The neocon agenda is neatly summarized in The Project For The New American Century, which was established in 1997. I tried looking for their website, but it seems they haven't been paying their bills! PNAC bankrupt? Tell me it ain't so!

Well, instead I found this:

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/pnac.htm
 gentalltheway
Joined: 9/9/2006
Msg: 36
view profile
History
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/22/2008 12:16:14 PM

I refuse to budge from my stance on the Neocon as described in Britannica

All of it or just what you cherry picked?
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 39
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/22/2008 1:03:04 PM


1) Religion is used by the political right as a justification. At the same time, "family values" and morality don't apply to Republicans.

tap, tap,tap....

Clinton's accusers, many of them (and that included religious people) all were having affairs as they picked up that stone to throw at him.

2) Fear is used as a weapon on the American public. Kerry's numbers rose in 2004, and suddenly there was a terror alert. The timing was remarkable.

Smoking guns and mushroom clouds.... Iraq, Sept 11th, Iraq, Sept. 11th.

3) Deception on the situation, through the noble lie.


These are the cornerstones of the Straussian view of the Neoconservative movement/ideology. If the Britannica definition doesn't include them, it is simply softsoaping it or is wrong. Strauss is essentially one of the founders of Neo-Conservative thought. It emerges from his views which, in an almost frighteningly similar way to Leni Riefenstahl's aesthetic, depict a mythic good vs. evil struggle in high relief that emerges from the pedestrian source of Strauss's fascination with TV's "Gunsmoke."

"Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace" is one of the basic mottos of the Neo-Conservative movement and constantly having a "black hat" mythologized as an agency of evil to fight against regardless of any real evil they might be to constantly maintain a level of "war footing" and thus "war economics" to maintain the machine that feeds the military industrial complex...good for the economy, thousand points of light, stay the course.

Of course it is not news to anyone that Strauss' star pupil, Wolfowitz has been working in the White House, behind the scenes, since Ford. He has had with him, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and others, also working to produce this white hat vs. black hat image that for the duration of the Cold War was Us vs. The Soviets, which was started by Truman and is now the "War On Terror."

I would hardly want to be identified with, nor self identified with these shysters...their only ideology is one of $$$ And the take the hindmost.
 gentalltheway
Joined: 9/9/2006
Msg: 41
view profile
History
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/22/2008 2:30:12 PM

I pointed out the roots of Neocon... not some updated PCism it's being given now. That isn't cherry picking.


You pointed out a small part of Britannica’s definition. In fact, you intentionally left out the not so good part of it which is...cherry picking. Nice try though.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 43
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/22/2008 2:51:26 PM
If you call yourself a neocon, I'm a little surprised you haven't already checked out The Project For A New American Century website in the past. As I said, the PNAC website seems to be defunct for now, and it is difficult to find positive spins on the organization. Take that as you will.

I posted the "Old American Century" website with tongue planted in cheek...
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 44
view profile
History
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/22/2008 5:28:56 PM
Nice rhetoric Trapper, but not accurate!

We have no superpower enemies! None!

If the rest of the world combined to try to attack us, we would have air superiority within hours. The F-15 Eagle is 102-0 in air to air combat. There is only one plane in the world that can shoot it down: the F-22 Raptor. There wouldn't be a plane in the air that wasn't our's in hours.

The M1-A1 Abrhams Tank destroyed at a kill ratio of 500-1 in Desert Storm against Soviet Tanks. Combine that with Unlimited air attacks from A-10 Warthogs and Apache Helicoptors and the Kill ratio goes up to 2000-1.

No, what we need to fear is ignorance in leadership like Bush, who attacks the wrong country fueling hatred towards America. Inventing enemies is counterproductive, unless you have stock in the industrial military complex.

It is no longer feasible for a country like Iran, China, etc. to build tech weapons that have no chance of working. It is far more cost effective to pay for small groups of terrorists to subvert from the fringes.

Your idiot in chief and the ignorant policies of hatred, greed and power have left us in a dangerous position. It is going to take a lot to overcome the destructive policies of the so-called conservatives. History will not look kindly upon your kind.

No, this isn't the 60s, but it isn't the 50s either, so enough with the facist Mcarthism sentiment. Communists aren't the enemy to freedom, it is the Facists like the current administration!
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 46
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/22/2008 8:17:22 PM
Wikipedia has a pretty comprehensive and well-rounded article on the subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism

The salient point being overlooked by the self-professed neocons here is this:

Neoconservatism emphasizes foreign policy as the paramount responsibility of government, maintaining that America's role as the world's sole superpower is indispensable to establishing and maintaining global order.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 49
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/22/2008 8:40:50 PM
First of all, I don't see why ya'll object at what I quoted. Second of all, I don't use anything as a sole source. Third of all, it's easy to tell you two neoconnies haven't even read the damned thing. Fourth of all, I said the article was well-balanced. Fifth of all, I often read things from suspect sources just to see how many holes I can poke through them. Much of it is from my own family. Sixth of all, I disagree that wikipedia should be dismissed out of hand. That is classic letting one bad apple spoil the bunch, throwing out the baby with the bathwater, etc. thinking.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 51
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/22/2008 9:15:44 PM
Woops! I just noted that xnerox linked the same wiki article waaaay back in post 5. Where were you "Neoconnettes" then? He seemed to think it was well done also. See, I don't put anything in the Holy Grail of complete accuracy. Not Brittannica, not anything. Wiki strikes me as generally accurate as anything out there. We're not exactly tossing around names and dates here anyways. We're talking ideology-- and we're not being tested on it in class on Monday, either. I'm just not aboard the wiki demonization bandwagon that is so hip on these forums. Maybe a thread on wiki accuracy? Starting with the wiki article on wiki's accuracy?
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 53
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/22/2008 9:33:00 PM
Actually, I would rather wear a t-shirt that says: "Trust but verify" or "Don't take my word for it; look it up!" or one with a bathtub being upended out a window with a baby flying out saying "Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater!" or "If I don't look good, have another beer."
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 54
view profile
History
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/22/2008 9:35:28 PM
Make that two. . . MG, that was friggin' funny!
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 55
view profile
History
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/22/2008 9:45:56 PM
How about we meet halfway?

Make it pink. . . Real men aren't afraid to wear pink.
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 56
view profile
History
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 5/22/2008 10:09:23 PM
Sure it matches my cheeck, now that you made me blush.
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 58
view profile
History
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 6/2/2008 6:38:32 PM
Welcome to the frey IK!

Too funny!
 gentalltheway
Joined: 9/9/2006
Msg: 63
view profile
History
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 6/3/2008 4:02:28 PM

there are anti western revolutions going on all over the world


I wonder why that is???

Did you forget your medication? Your paranoia tendencies are in full blast again.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 64
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 6/3/2008 4:31:04 PM

Unlike most conservatives of earlier generations, neoconservatives maintain that the United States should take an active role in world affairs...

This appears highly euphemistic in light of the US's foreign policy stance in the world recently. Germany has taken a very "active role in world affairs" in the past, but it's not something Germans are proud of today.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 65
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 6/3/2008 11:35:48 PM
Yeah, I did a brief search, and it does look as though a German architect and company were involved in Hussein's bunker. I think Hitler's bunker was also German. Hussein's infamous chemical weapons (aka WMD's) were sold to him by the US. The US Army once ordered a whole bunch of berets from China... sorry, what was your point again?
 Ahoytheredave
Joined: 8/29/2006
Msg: 67
view profile
History
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 6/6/2008 7:44:50 AM
History through colored glasses.

Actually, there was a debate to invite Japanese observers to see the test of the bomb but there was concern it would simply be perceived as trickery or that the test would fail. Even if the bomob worked, it was doubted the leadership would surrender based on a demonstration at a US based test site. The test proved the bomb did work and the bombs to be dropped were not experiments.

Japan was defeated on the military front but was determined to wear down the US though the shear horror of war and massive losses of life that goes with it. The plan was to play on the inherent weakness of democracy itself when faced with the realities of war. Even after Japan's military defeat was clear, many thousands of American lives were lost in suicide attacks. Once the first A-bomb was dropped, the picture changed. It was no longer going to be American lives being lost, it was going to be Japanese and there was not going to be a lengthy and bloody show of the carnage of war. Still, the rulers of Japan were determined to drag it out. The second bomb was dropped and the Japanese leadership, by a narrow decision, decided to surrender. It would be months before another bomb could be built and if the Japanese leadership had known, I suspect the war would have continued. Their plan was to extend the war to get better terms for surrender and live to fight again another day just as Germany had done at the end of WWI.

Japan actually had deployed aircraft carrying giant subs near the end of the war. One was soon to attack the Panama canal on a suicide mission when the surrender occured. The point was to delay Atlantic fleet ships from entering the Pacific thus prolonging the war. These ships were considered technology marvels good for nothing but war and scuttled by the US before any significant analysis of their technology was harvested from them.

Contrast the history of how the end of WWII was a success and Iraq went off track. Iraq was defeated and things were going well then Brenner was put in place to oversee the restructuring. His first two big decisions completely went against the lessons learned from the WWII successes and even offended the US military leadership in Iraq to the extent most top leaders quit. Bush, being a politician with far too much emphasis on loyalty, did not fire Brenner and his handler Rumsfeld but should have. Its not unlike his appointment of, and failure to fire, FEMA head Brown over the Katrina mess. Had it been the Clintons, the offenders in their administration would have died in accidents, suicides, etc. as many did.

History can be much more interesting if one removes their red (neocon?) or blue (liberal?) colored glasses. Check on the man most credited with starting WWII. Liberals would like to say neocons are Hitler like yet he was a vegetarian aspiring artist with what could be considered pretty much liberal policies in most regards.

I don't feel the assignment of red and blue states makes sense. Lincoln was a Republican and blue was the color of the armies of the republic under his command. Red is the color associated with far left communist and socialist governments. Was this part of the media bias?
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 70
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 6/6/2008 3:33:25 PM
What you are not acknowledging is that the Bush admin and the Project For a New American Century have expanded upon the relatively tame sounding Britannica definition. As I said earlier, the def. you cite is laughably euphemistic. It has come to mean spreading democracy through force, if necessary. The classic def. has basically lost its meaning in the political arena now. You support the invasion of Iraq, so that would make you more a constituent of the PNAC version of the ideology. Perhaps the question is: how do you differentiate yourself from the "tainted" definition of neoconservative?


make it something which they compare to being a Neo Nazi. But, the grassroots is taking Neocon back to it's roots and away from the Liberal's slant to it.

Neo-Nazi? No, that implies a race motivated agenda. It is more comparable to any government which has sought to spread its influence through unprovoked warfare-- intervening in other countries' sovereignty while abhorring interventions on its own sovereignty. Not just ironic-- hypocritical and arrogant.

What grassroots movement are you referencing? I've seen no evidence of it.



Again... I state... the Libs have dictated what Neocons are and they call Bush a neocon. Whether Bush and Others are or are not real Neocons is very much debatable. But, they have been tagged that without due process and real consideration what 'Neoconservatism' is.

So, where's the irony unless all American Presidents/Congress are considered Neocons going on your basis of America's meddling and the 'irony' as related to Neoconservatism.

Bush is not the first president of the neoconservative ideology. He is the first under the PNAC expansion on the ideology, though. He is the first to expand intervention to include preemptive warfare. Bush is not philosophical enough to be considered a member of the neocon movement. He's more of an active pawn.

My advice is to look outside the high school level Britannica explanation and maybe do a search on it in the Christian Science Monitor. I know how you dislike bias, especially anti-neocon bias, and that is the least biased source I can think of right now.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 73
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 6/6/2008 6:17:49 PM
Again, the question is: how do you differentiate yourself from the "tainted" definition of neoconservative?

You can bat away all the sources offered 'till the cows come home, but my point is still to go beyond the one column version of what constitutes neoconservatism. Find sources that meet your standards and delve into them.

Knowledge does not end with the Encyclopedia Britannica.

Edit:
"Come on, MG. That's from the New York Times, an obviously liberal propaganda rag!"
How's that for a "preemptive strike"? ;)
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 75
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 6/6/2008 6:31:45 PM
"Never, in the field of human political ideology, have so few owed so much to so few column inches."
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 82
Neoconism Is Alive and Well
Posted: 6/7/2008 8:59:56 AM

once iran gets the bomb, and takes out a city or two of ours, and they can do it with a suitcase bomb, it will be good freaking luck finding a liberal in this country. those left alive arent gonna have any appetite for lefty crap.

"Fiction can be fun, but I find the reference section much more enlightening."
Show ALL Forums  > Politics  >