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 kuddlekitty
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 86
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should the US apologize for slaveryPage 10 of 15    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15)
Uhhhhhh, that's a joke, right?
NOT!
One point for attempted levity...
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 87
should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 3/21/2009 8:24:42 PM
@ kuddlekitty...


Read your history. Jewish people didn't kill Jesus...ever hear of the Romans... Vatican 2?


Admittedly, my bible knowledge is a little rusty... but didn't the Jewish people *of the period* DEMAND that Jesus be crucified - even after Pilate begged them to tell him what crime the man had committed?

The Romans may have been the executioners... but it was his peers who set him up for the fall.
 kuddlekitty
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 88
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should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 3/21/2009 10:28:53 PM
The whole "the Jews killed Jesus" has been used worldwide as a blatant, hateful, ignorant form of anti-semitism.

Quite a few CHRISTIAN theologians, as well, have stated there never was a Jewish mob who voted at his trial; there is no actual historical proof of that.
And...
Excerpt from the Catholic Church...

" In her Magisterial teaching of the faith and in the witness of her saints, the Church has never forgotten that "sinners were the authors and the ministers of all the sufferings that the divine Redeemer endured."389 Taking into account the fact that our sins affect Christ himself, 390 the Church does not hesitate to impute to Christians the gravest responsibility for the torments inflicted upon Jesus, a responsibility with which they have all too often burdened the Jews alone."

All one has to do is apply common sense instead of listening to what you've been spoon-fed:
The Jewish People did not have the power back then...The Romans did. If there was even so much as a Jewish uprising they were killed. I seriously doubt the Romans and Ponchas Pilate felt the need to adhere to Jewish demands...think about it, really.

As for who turned him over...who asked for him to be turned over in the first place. There were other prophets claiming to be the son of G-d; they never developed a following. When Jesus did...he became a threat to the Romans. They wanted him gone.

Here's the point...The Jewish people did not kill Christ. In the case of someone who thinks they had a hand in it...why is it the anti-semites always say, the Jews killed Jesus...Where did the Romans go in that story...So, by that logic, if I told you to go and kill your boss...the story would go down in history that I killed him???

And to just to reiterate, I think the whole "blame Jews" thing is ludicrous and beyond inaccurate. My above example was just using your logic...
 kuddlekitty
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 89
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History
should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 3/21/2009 10:40:10 PM
RocketMan...
One more thing...Pilate "begged" the Jewish people...Paleeeez. Methinks you saw Passion of the Christ one time too many!
(Huge piece of anti-semitic crap from that great humanitarian...Mel!) But who could doubt the words of a philandering, alcoholic, Jew-hating, woman-hating, gem like good ol' Mel. Such a pity...he was quite the looker in his day...and a charming character of an actor! Who knew...
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 90
should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 3/22/2009 7:25:39 AM
^^^^^

No, I went and re-read the scriptures. (Check it out on NetBible... John 18-19) Pilate *repeatedly* says - "I see no reason to put this man to death. What is his crime?" But the Chief Priest and his officers kept crying "Crucify Him" until Pilate relented.

BTW - I *never* saw Passion of the Christ.
 kuddlekitty
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 91
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should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 3/22/2009 8:08:06 AM
I have never read the Scriptures. I don't intend to. I won't be quoting or reading words that contain anti-semitic passages. It was probably rewritten I don't know how many times...what I do know, based on history and FACT...is that there was a ROMAN empire that CRUCIFIED thousands upon thousands of people, before and after Christ.

What is a FACT is that the JEWISH PEOPLE did not the hold the power or control PONCHAS PILATE or the Roman Empire.

Pilate was not the tearful, woeful, regretful man, desperately trying to save Christ that your books make him out to be. He was cruel. It is a FACT that lot had to do with the politics of power. Jesus was crucified for sedition...that was a crime against ROME. Everyone who committed that got the same treatment.

There was anti-semitism then, as today.

When you tell and retell a story...and the Romans, who actually killed and tortured Christ...are left out of the "story" ...it's based on ignorance and anti-semitism. That should be in your Scriptures.

I assume that's why Vatican Two was written.

Those who want to stick with an old book based on hate-mongering can do so.

Some people think the Jews were reponsible for September 11th. Do you ascribe to that too...

Hey, maybe generations to come can quote the internet and all the "stories..." to "prove" it.
 kuddlekitty
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 92
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History
should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 3/22/2009 8:14:45 AM
And again...that little "sentence" you quoted cannot be proven...there are things that can be proven historically. There was a Roman Empire. They crucified thousands, including Christ. Everything else is heresay. Ever play "telephone?" Again, there are documentaries, including works done by CHRISTIAN theologians, who dispute that "rumor" that there was a Jewish mob that voted.

Nuf said. If you want to stick with your version, it's your "right" even if you're wrong. Sad, though...
 kuddlekitty
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 93
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should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 3/22/2009 8:44:13 AM
The OP asked, as an example of who should apologize to whom...Should the Jews apologize for killing Jesus..." that was beyond offensive, ignorant and anti-semitic...and everybody accepted that as fact, or apparently had no desire to refute it.
I did and do...There's no way a bullshit statement like that should go unrecognized.
 SAguy_06
Joined: 12/29/2005
Msg: 94
should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 3/22/2009 9:41:23 AM
Im sorry to be an off topic "stick in the mud", but what proof is there, [other than scripture] that Christ was a actual Historical figure?
 kuddlekitty
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 95
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should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 3/22/2009 9:54:32 AM
BUGGSY...
do not assume anything. Everyone has a right to their religious beliefs...To their indivudual cultures, etc. However, when a particular belief skewers over into a falsehood...perpetuates a lie...and creates prejudice for another group...that is no longer "religious."

The lie is bullshit. It was fabricated for political purposes and perpetuated by ignorance and hatred. It is not based on any historical proof.

And I hate to burst yet another bubble...but do you really think the physical depiction of Jesus is accurate too...he had long, flowing blonde hair and blue eyes? Now, while it is true that there are many Jewish people with blonde hair and blue eyes, red hair and green eyes, etc...Jesus was a SEPHARDIC JEW. He therefore, according to anthropologists...had black curly hair and brown eyes.

And to SAguy...
There is historical proof that Jesus the MAN did live...whether he was the Son of G-d is the entire crux of religious debate...but he did exist as a physical man in that time.

Peace...
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 96
should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 3/22/2009 10:49:47 AM
@ kuddlekitty...

If you're going to take that attitude, then you could say that ALL of history is nothing but hearsay and anecdote. I'm quoting the only reference material available - you *should* at least glance at it before you pass judgment. And just FYI - it DOES include the fact that the Romans tortured Jesus.

And your September 11th remark was uncalled for... but thanks for showing me how rigid your OWN beliefs are.
 SAguy_06
Joined: 12/29/2005
Msg: 97
should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 3/22/2009 11:24:36 AM

historical proof that Jesus the MAN did live


OK i guess Ill take your word for it...I was kinda hoping you had some text.

it ok, thats a different fight...but its seems to me if you[anyone] cant prove his existance, all other points are moot.
 kuddlekitty
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 98
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History
should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 3/23/2009 6:54:17 AM
@RockeMan:
It's not an an attitude. It's a a Jewish person who is beyond fed up with anti-freaking-semitism which I don't/won't take.

It's not the only reference material available...I'm sure there are many that can dispute it or challenge it. And yes, there is a difference when one speaks of history that can be proven through scientific or anthropological facts...thru video-taped footage of many a war and crimes...and the written words of something that happened so long ago and were written by the people of that time.

My September 11 remark was called for and still stands; there is nothing different about blaming the Jewish people for the death of Christ from the asinine bigoted rumors (thankfully from proportionately a few) that the Jewish people had anything to do with 9/11. It's just another form of anti-semitic bull.

It's all part of the same crap.
And thank YOU...for proving my point...that until people get educated about history and hatred...there will never be peace in this world.
back at ya
 kuddlekitty
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 99
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History
should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 3/23/2009 8:58:10 AM
BUGGSY...
If you or anyone else gets back to me and I don't respond...its' because you are only allowed a certain number of responses per day.

You can quote all you want. When you get enlightened on what happened during the Crucifixion, speak to me.

I agree with forgiving...when someone commits a crime. So, yes, forgive the ROMANS...the Jewish people don't need forgiveness...we committed no crime. If it's in YOUR version of the Bible, maybe you need an update. If you read back to my other posts on this forum you will see where even the Church places the brunt of the blame with the Christians...not the Jewish people. So forgive yourself...

Have a nice day.
 kuddlekitty
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 100
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History
should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 3/23/2009 9:36:16 AM
Buggsy:
Excerpt from the Catholic Church...

" In her Magisterial teaching of the faith and in the witness of her saints, the Church has never forgotten that "sinners were the authors and the ministers of all the sufferings that the divine Redeemer endured."389 Taking into account the fact that our sins affect Christ himself, 390 the Church does not hesitate to impute to Christians the gravest responsibility for the torments inflicted upon Jesus, a responsibility with which they have all too often burdened the Jews alone."
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 101
should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 3/23/2009 3:45:51 PM
@ kuddlekitty


It's not the only reference material available...I'm sure there are many that can dispute it or challenge it.


Point'em out, I'll look at'em.

Also, I did NOT say that the Jewish PEOPLE were to blame for the death of Christ. Instead, from the information I have available to me, it was the Jewish Priests and Officers *of that period* who called for it. If the Romans were afraid of losing their power-base, the same could be said about those people... could it not?
 kuddlekitty
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 102
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should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 3/24/2009 7:09:41 AM
I agree this thread has gone off on a tangent ...and yeah, the post should get back to the question. But the question should never have been posed with a bullshit statement that went ignored in the first place...and than this "crap" wouldn't have followed.
 Samurai41
Joined: 4/29/2008
Msg: 103
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should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 3/24/2009 12:42:00 PM
I will be happy to apologize, as soon as someone can prove that i owned a slave............
 FL CO
Joined: 12/23/2008
Msg: 104
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should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 3/30/2009 11:39:52 AM
I'm a Christian that has some NA and Irish in me. Does that mean I'm owed at least three apoligies? Can I get 120 acres and a horse instead of a mule?
 Twill348
Joined: 12/20/2008
Msg: 105
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History
should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 3/31/2009 7:35:26 PM
The Africans need to apologize first, they started it.
 FL CO
Joined: 12/23/2008
Msg: 108
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History
should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 4/2/2009 10:34:14 AM
You people do know that the civil war wasn't over slavery right?
 geeleebee
Joined: 5/26/2008
Msg: 109
should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 4/2/2009 11:24:20 AM

You people do know that the civil war wasn't over slavery right?


Uh...yeah, we do know that.
Which doesn't take away from the fact that this country--based on all kinds of freedoms--practiced slavery for many, many years.
An apology doesn't right a wrong, and I'm not sure what an apology is supposed to resolve/correct/absolve in this case.

I do think that the idea of 'just get over it' is patronizing. Can't get over something until/unless one's feelings are validated. This is a no-win situation.

Am I personally sorry about slavery? Absolutely.
 FL CO
Joined: 12/23/2008
Msg: 110
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History
should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 4/2/2009 11:32:27 AM

Am I personally sorry about slavery? Absolutely


Why? Slavery ended over 140 years ago. They're no longer alive today and you weren't a slave owner/trader. What do you have to be sorry for? All races and religions have suffered over the years. Whats in the past is in the past. I'm not going to be sorry for something that happened atleast 6 generations ago. Just like I don't expect someone to feel sorry for me because I've got a little Irish in me and the Irish were looked down upon as being worse than blacks.
 geeleebee
Joined: 5/26/2008
Msg: 111
should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 4/2/2009 1:09:26 PM

Why? Slavery ended over 140 years ago. They're no longer alive today and you weren't a slave owner/trader. What do you have to be sorry for? All races and religions have suffered over the years. Whats in the past is in the past. I'm not going to be sorry for something that happened atleast 6 generations ago. Just like I don't expect someone to feel sorry for me because I've got a little Irish in me and the Irish were looked down upon as being worse than blacks.


For the same reason that I am sorry about the Japanese Americans who lost their homes and businesses during WWII--and for the outrages committed by the HUAC during the Red Scare--I have a long list of things I feel badly about.

You don't have to feel anything--I'm certainly not asking you to be any different than who you are right now. I am speaking only for myself.
 geeleebee
Joined: 5/26/2008
Msg: 113
should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 4/2/2009 3:04:53 PM
Uh...AGAIN, you don't have to feel the same way I feel--I'm not asking you to apologize for anything.
Taking issue with how I feel is a waste of your time.

What I SAID was that I feel badly about many things.
As I am an American citizen, I get to feel that way.
'K?

And, actually, slavery was an issue only because the Southern states wanted to count their slaves when it came to more representation, not because they (the slaves) were considered anything more than, well...slaves.




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