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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Proof for the existence of God [Thread Closed]      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 Is too hot
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 26
Proof for the existence of GodPage 2 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
Since you have never seen god, how do you know the FSM is a lampoon? There is exactly as much evidence for the existence of FSM as your god. Yes, people propose the FSM to show you how believing in a sadistic, homophobic, immature, vengeful, unforgiving, capricious god is silly. Especially silly in that you only believe in that god only because someone else who hasn't ever met that god told you to believe in it.

Aquinas' logic was as good as yours. Do we really need to revisit it?
 Is too hot
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 27
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/23/2008 11:57:22 PM

I see it. The whole echo system screams of a creator. The universe shows a mathematical genius of life on earth. The odds of life as we see it so abuntantly here on earth is to rare to even fathom.


You see what exactly? Your misunderstanding of the universe? Could you please put your views in terms of math? You know, the math you say you see as evidence of a creator. Can't? Well, what a surprise! Perhaps stick to just plain believing from now on, yes?


We have to prove God But evolution doesn't have to prove anything. We just keep picking the best theory as it fits in human knowledge for the day.


No one is asking you to prove anything. Evolution proves itself every single day, by the way. You know DNA? That molecule was discovered only because it was predicted by evolution. As a matter of fact, biologists no longer really need fossils now that we can take DNA apart. You carry every biological predecessor you ever had from the dawn of time to the present in every cell in your body.


Seems we are having a problem with the honey bees starting to be missing. And a cycle could start which means no bee, no pollenation, no plants, no animals, no humans. I am sure a new bee is in the process of being evolved to save the day. Maybe its the African killer bees.


So, that disproves evolution to you? Did the Black Plague disprove evolution? Hardly. As a matter of fact, the survivors of the plague have a certain gene that allowed them to survive. Evolution in action. BTW, honey bees are not the only pollinators and this does not disprove evolution. As a matter of fact, this event may force an evolutionary event for bees. Don't worry, we'll let you know if it does.


We all could believe in God or not. But those who ridicule those that do. You better be sure as hell you are right!


Ah, how clever! A restatement of Pascal's Wager! How very original! So far, there have been over 20,000 religions since humans started keeping records of such things. What are your chances of being right? All the other religions had just as much evidence on their side as you do. Lotsa luck!
 bluezoot_riot
Joined: 5/21/2007
Msg: 28
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/24/2008 10:22:40 AM

Since you have never seen god, how do you know the FSM is a lampoon?


Absolutely right.


There is exactly as much evidence for the existence of FSM as your god. Yes, people propose the FSM to show you how believing in a sadistic, homophobic, immature, vengeful, unforgiving, capricious god is silly.


That's how you and I know it's a lampoon.

Sadistic? Homophobic? Immature? You say these things as if YOU'VE met Him. In fact, they sound like you're judgment of Him. Yes, G-d hates sin. Unforgiving? Have you been estranged from ever having read a Bible? Have you experienced "unforgiveness"? How do YOU know? By your own accounts it seems you never read a Bible, so I don't know where you got your idea of capriciousness from, so I don't think it warrants an answer.


Especially silly in that you only believe in that god only because someone else who hasn't ever met that god told you to believe in it.


You don't know how I came to believe, in fact, you are wrong.
 bluezoot_riot
Joined: 5/21/2007
Msg: 29
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/24/2008 6:49:44 PM
Nowhere

You say that people who don't believe in God talk about him a lot. I suppose that's true under the right circumstances, but not in general. Most atheists I know have other things going on in their lives which negate the necessity for them to be talking about a God they don't believe in.


novascotialass: "justalittlecrazy" said that, not I. I think certain people on this forum who don't believe like to talk about Him do it, merely to flex their mental muscles, and to fulfill their egos. In certain respects I am guilty of egoism as well.


Besides, look what happens when we do state our beliefs; it is taken as a personal attack on the people who do believe, people then make value judgements on our character, and before you know it, we are excluded from certain circles. After all, we do live in a Christian-based society. In fact, I have numerous friends to whom I could not state my beliefs/lack of beliefs. You really do learn to keep quiet.


I took what that other guy said as an attack, because he stated believing is delusional. So it goes for both parties. Stating your beliefs is one thing, in fact, that would be refreshing. As you can see, that is not the case.


But this thread is about providing proof of God, apparently started by a theist, and as of yet, nothing conclusive has been provided; not even that the universe abides by mathematical principles. I think God is the only hypothesis for which we say that unless you can prove that it does not exist, then it must exist.


I suppose "proof" is up to the discretion of every individual. Some people need logical proof, some experiential, some, none at all.

Here's a "proof" : Has any non-believer said "I hope..." ? If it is in one's ability to do something, to change the outcome of the event, and they are willing and truly cannot, yet they still have hope, it would seem irrational to hope in anything at all, merely empty words. If not empty, perhaps there is hope?


Finally, if someone doesn't believe in God, then they cannot judge him; we're not looking at this as an emotional issue, but a logical argument.


Perhaps on a certain level. If what you said is true, then it is an attack; name-calling, rabble-rousing. I would hope that people are not a slave to "Reason" entirely, it's dehumanizing.

"Vanity of vanities all is vanity. "
 Is too hot
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 30
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/24/2008 8:54:01 PM
nowhere,

You need to make up your mind. And you need to read your own Bible.

First, you admit you don't know your god from a hole in the ground. Then you go on to tell me you can differentiate two representations of the almighty being. Can't have it both ways.

Then you launch into statements about my ascribing characteristics to the biblical god that are inherent in that book. I have read the bible. Have you read Numbers? Pretty horrific stuff. How about the gospels? Jesus wasn't such a good fig grower, was he? So, I read the book and all I could take out of it was what a complete boob your god is. You'll find your god fully acting every way but godlike in that there book. You don't think anything you can't answer as warranting an answer. Really, read the book. Not the good parts or greatest hits or what your pastor tells you to but ALL of it. Prove Mark Twain right.

The only way you can know about the god of the bible is by having someone tell you about him either verbally or in print. Don't be daft. If god told you himself, you need medication.
 Is too hot
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 31
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/25/2008 9:22:43 PM
Just a little crazy,

If you're going to attack the Theory of Evolution, it would be really nice if you first learned what it was first. The ToE has nothing to do with abiogenesis so there's one strike. Additionally, the ToE is tested every single day in labs all over the world and has been found to be consistent. Strike two. The ToE has led to working therapies for difficult diseases. Strike three.

Just in case you haven't been near a newsstand latetly, modern technology has disproved various myths like the flat earth, homunculi, aether, phlogiston, etc. So, your cherry-picked experts are wrong.

Why is it people like you and the writers of this garbage anoint yourselves instant experts after listening to a sermon from someone who knows sod-all about science? This is getting ridiculous. If people like you would even talk intelligently for once, you may be more persuasive. At the moment, people in industrialized countries are living longer and healthier lives than ever in recorded history. This, my friend, is not due to religion or its ridiculous arguments. This longevity is the result of science, technology and the scientific method. That includes what we know about genetics, which in turn is the ToE in practice.

The real progress doesn't belong to religion. (When has it ever?) If you want to return to the Dark Ages, go ahead. Just leave the sentient alone.
 Is too hot
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 32
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/26/2008 9:06:03 PM

Faith in a divine creator is not necessarily religion as YOU think it is. Reading the Bible which you have mentioned more than once. Is an historical fact if you decide it is in your own mind. If not than how could you believe in it?


Well, here we have it. I'm not sure that you were referring to me in an earlier post when you accused someone of saying that faith in a deity was delusional. The term delusional connotes pathological belief. That is not the norm. However, in your case, it is the case. Your brand of faith is delusional. There are not many people of faith who would agree that reading any sacred writing infers that you have to believe it is historically accurate, espeically in the face of overwhelming contravening evidence.


If I and any other person believing in a creator is still in the dark ages.


You believe in god. I believe in complete sentences. Maybe we are too different.


People which rely on your kind of thinking and believing in the hot Pre- life chemical soup becoming intelligent life by chance is as good as any of the old Greek myths.


People with my kind of thinking? You mean people who don't make stuff up that disagrees with reality? Those guys? How do you know I didn't just read Gulliver's Travels and am tying myself to tiny little sticks driven into the ground? To answer your question, I don't know how life started on this planet. Some people must and those people who know reality have postulated various scenarios. It is true that there in no direct evidence if any of these are correct. However, weren't you just recently railing that the Theory of Evolution was wrong because you didn't like any of the abiogenesis hypotheses except god-did-it? (Yes, that is also an abiogenesis hypothesis so why not say that all the others are like Christian myths?) Let's get this straight. The Theory of Evolution has nothing to do with the origins of life anywhere. It is strictly a scientific theory of how life adapts to changing conditions and could form different species. It's a very simple concept but you would know that if you had ever studied it.


You and some others tend to be very rude to believers in creation and there would be many more here to discuss existence of God on the creation side. I am sure of it.


I am very rude to you, m'boy. Take a look at your very first message to me. Let me know when you're done. Was that a friendly message? Why were you taking up for another believer who had taken such an unChristian attitude towards me? They guy who accused me of speaking out of ignorance of the bible?

Funny thing, that's not the first time that happened. There was a christian guy at work who was being fairly obnoxious trying to convert me to his religion despite knowing full well that I'm an atheist. One time he invited me to a bible study he was leading at his church. I declined politely but he kept on, finally telling me that he was teaching about the Seige of Jericho. So, I told him that I would gladly attend if he allowed me to teach the bible passage describing what happened after the wall of Jericho tumbled down. You know that he didn't know! He hadn't bothered to read that part. Can you say attrocity approved by God? Well, he never bothered me again. I know it wasn't nice but it was deserved.

But let's get back to what you've written. Why would I care if you and your ilk discuss the creation and your god? I don't. I do care when you arrive at a public forum and try to convince people that a book of allegory is factual and that science is bunk. Now, there you are making up your own reality. So why bother those of us who studied and learned to deal with reality with your fantasies? We're really not interested and we don't like to have our intelligence so callously insulted.


But as I see it why bother debating in these forums with people who ridicule others.


No, not "others" just you and the bloke who said I was ignorant. Turn the other cheek. Better yet, leave any time you want.
 lifebeyondearth
Joined: 11/13/2007
Msg: 33
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/27/2008 3:03:04 PM
A Scientific Approach To God
A scientific approach to God’s image and the Oneness of God
Arnold Yasin Mol©2006

"The early man had little knowledge how nature worked and why, except what he himself could experience, out of this the feeling of mystery must have emerged. The feeling there is a true reality behind this life. This is how the concept of divinity, of the transcendent, a universal Good, bigger that the human and nature, a source of nurture, a ruler on destiny. This concept of power, of a Creator, in the sense of that is everything, a power of the higher and this reality must have come about. In our language it resembles the Transcendent and Immanent. If this can be seen as 1 God, as most researchers think, can not be proven of course. But it is certainly true, that in our days, with the cultures who don't use writing, and resembles early man in a lot of ways, like the use of oral tradition. That with these cultures, it is a common believe that there is only one highest god, one creator, and next to this god, they have to deal with lower spiritual beings as totems, cultural heroes, ancestors and local gods. But this god, sticks out with head and shoulders above all of these lower powers. For most it is a vague, and and incomprehensible power. That in their eyes doesn't intervene in daily life. So this is why they use their idols to ask help. [...]When cultures grew, this aminism developed into polytheism. But in the background, this highest god always remained, although it was ignored. This faith, or rather understanding developed back in to monotheism as it is to be found in the scriptual faiths of today. So after a long route the highest power always prevailed. The concept of religion, has to be traced back in the faith of a holy power that goes beyond this universe, and supports it. It could be that this wasn't given no form, and stayed a vague term of providence, as a creating and recreating force, working in food, sex, fertility, birth, death and the changing of seasons. When this view, that this force exists, found it's own life in different aspects and functions, this developed into spirits, ghosts and idols, with each its own tasks.[...]

It reappearing throughout the whole history of mankind. The remerging of faith in every fase of cultures and religions since prehistoric times, gives a clear indication that it is something that is a spontaneous part of man itself. It is an expression of a feeling and thinking man is born with, not so much an outcome of observation and knowledge of the universe and nature. Without a doubt did this develope into the monotheisms of today, in the God as only creator and sustainer of all things. Far from that polytheism developed into monotheism, does the evidence show that the concept and knowledge of the universe, while it grew developed different gods and powers over time, while the highest being turned into a vague figure, that didn't intervene, and was hidden in the mists of animism and polytheism and the absolutism of Hinduism and in the far east." Gerben J.F. Bouritius Lector in the fenomology of religions and faiths of the Theological Faculty in Tilburg

“What is God? Where is God?” Every person on earth will give you a different answer to these questions. “Nowhere. Outside the universe. In heaven. In yourself. God is love. God is the Quantum Zero Point Field. God is energy. God is in these rocks. Inside this temple.” These are some remarks people could give. Which one is true? They are all based and formed on personal experience, intelligence, feelings, knowledge, personal opinions, knowledge formed by religion or tradition, conjecture. So is God for everyone different? Is our God experiences subjected to every persons willingness of limit to where God can be present in their lives, can the experience be formed? I believe they are all true, and none. Humankind always hasve to form something into a shape, to name it. An experience or feeling, a scientific idea about the world around us. We always have to label it, put a name card on it. Shape it into an image. This is no weakness, it’s build within our nature, it helps us to deal with the things we encounter in life. But in one thing we went wrong, went ahead of ourselves, crossed a limit. We tried to grasp the Ungraspable. See Him who can’t be seen.

Some see God as energy, some see Him in the smile of a child. We try to find Him somewhere in our lives. To give form to God, to grasp Him. Give Him a place, and by doing so we give Him a size, a form, a limit to where He is present in our lives and thoughts.

I say; STOP! Drop all the thoughts you’re having and let’s start over, from the beginning. Look at ourselves and wonder why do you have such thoughts? On what experience and knowledge you have formed God on? Is it reasonable, did you really searched God, or did you search a form or place for Him? Did you allow people to form Him for you? When you reflect on yourselves to see where you’re ideas come from, you will see that, most of it comes from your background, education, experience. All things that are limited and by thus create a limit for God unknowingly. So let’s start over and see where we will end.

You will agree with me that there are two worlds we can reach; the world we see with our eyes, touch with our fingers, the air we breath. The material world. The other one is linked to this world, but can also go beyond it. The world of feelings. Love, happiness, pain, hate, hope, despair, anger, sorrow. We all know them, we all have a different approach to them, we name them like this, we can’t truly grasp them, but nobody will deny their existence. These worlds are linked, intertwined in one another, they form one another. So lLet’s see what we know now about the first world, the material world.

Science has come a long way. Every time they thought they had reached a limit, a new horizon appeared. The knowledge of the building blocks that form our material world, got smaller and more complicated over the years. First we started to understand that everything was build with small ‘construction’ blocks, and we called them molecules. This idea is thousands of years old, coming from the ancient history, passed on to us through the ancient Greeks. The fundamentals of the laws of the building blocks grew over the ages, until the 19th and 20th century we started to understand that they had so many properties, they also had to be formed by even smaller particles. Being present in each molecule in a different amount and formation and giving each molecule its unique qualities. Protons, neutrons and electrons. And of course these later on turned out be constructed by again smaller parts, quarks. Quarks had smaller substances and from there on it never stopped. Now we have reached a point we know we can’t go further. We start to understand we live in one unlimited energy field. No vacuum, no spaces between the energy.

Scientists have given it different names but they all agree on

the properties, Zero Point Field, Akasha field. The name doesn’t matter.

Because of this discovery we can understand a lot of things we earlier couldn’t explain, now we can fill in the blanks. Now quantum physics works together with biology, neurology, chemistry, philosophy and religion. New theories emerged from all different fields of science, explaining the most fundamental questions. The communication between cells, where gravity gets its energy from. The field answered a lot of material world answers. But it gave also a new explanation for the reality of the material world. People always hear things like; this life is an illusion, or life is a dream. Most religions say it, the holy books mention it. Philosophers wrote hundreds of books about it. Now this idea, this way of thinking comes from a place we would not expected to come from; science. In neurology there were already ideas that the world didn’t exist outside us. Our senses feel, hear, see, taste something coming from outside us. It goes trough our nerves and inside our brains and the feeling gets reproduced to our conscious. So we can never step outside our brain and nerves to experience the outside world. How then can we know it is real? This pondered scientists and philosophers for years. In dreams you can feel senses, experience realness. Climb a mountain while never leaving your bed. You don’t need a reality around you to experience things.

Life looks like a big super movie, a hologram. The people who examine the outside world, came with the same conclusion. There is no ‘outside’ just a ‘something’. But not only outside you, you yourself are part of that ‘something’. Even your conscious is build up out of that ‘something’. Life is truly a hologram…. So there you are, reading this, with your thoughts. Thinking they are only in your head. There is no head! There is nothing, and everything. We are all connected with everything. Part of the ‘something’. All is real, but in the same time not a real as before, only your thoughts and actions remain. Your choices of feelings when you experience the hologram is all that that is real. But also still based on that ‘something’.

But what creates this hologram? Allows your choices? Your consciousness? All sciences show a design in the creation around you and in yourselves. When you read this article, you know it was written by an intelligence. I could have taken some ink and a piece and drop itnk on a piece of paper a million times. Never would it have formed a sentence, even a word. I have to direct the ink, control it to form a word or a sentence. The design in DNA, the law of physics that balance the mechanism of the creation are so precise, like in the words of professor Paul Davies:’ This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here’. So what’s behind this perfectly formed hologram, this perfect movie set? Does the energy field form it? So we can name this field God? No, then you start limiting and labeling again. I myself wouldn’t call it that. That kind of description makes an ‘iít’ out of the ‘something’. The something designs our being, our experiences, our world. God is everything, and goes beyond everything, beyond your thoughts. Beyond the field. God doesn’t end up on a chalkboard between thousands of formulas. Just like feelings, the Everything can’t be described. You can’t write the feeling of love for me on paper, you can only describe the effect the feeling has on you. The field can be an expression of God, a way to show His power and presence to us. Showing that you can’t escape Him, you can’t get attached to things, possessions. It’s all a hologram, not real. Theo only realtrue attachment is to Him. The field is balanced, controlled by perfect laws, creating us and our universe. It shows us a message, HeI isam here, wherever that issomewhere.

‘IÍt ‘ knows, ‘iít’ forms. ‘IÍt lives and makes us live. It is conscious and truly unlimited in every-thing. And an ‘iít’ can live, but an ‘iít’ is something not personal. An ‘iít’ is something unknown.

But we know that’s not the case, we have known ‘iít’ from the beginning. In every language we give a different name, but the meaning is the same. God, Allah, Aum, Adonai, Wakantanka, Ahura Mmazda. So many names, but all the same qualities given to the Highest being, the Highest Reality. The Ultimate Everything. And still a lot of scientists can’t find there place in religion, they acknowledge the fact of a Creator, but don’t know what to do with their “discovery”. The image of that Creator mentioned in the revelations of the world, say the same thing we know know through science. But they look at the religions and only see the traditions and superstitions that surrounds the religions. They don’t take the effort to go beyond theose things that bury the true meaning mentioned in the holy books and oral traditions. Most traditions and beliefs that comes with a holy revelation, contradict what that revelation says. The scriptures are more realistic, more grown than the later formed traditions that surrounds them. The doctrines that later on have been formed, has more to do with the power and position the people gained using the scriptures, or misunderstandings that formed over the years, superstitions. They buried the true message hidden in the revelations. than with the true message given in it. Or with the misunderstanding of its meaning. Superstition. The scriptures are always the innocent victims, their words used too give people authority, instead of giving the scriptures the true importance. And by thus later on getting labeled as concocted. Or Tthey are seen as ignorant efforts to explain our reason of existence, but doesn’t science try to do the same?

Of course it is really important we have to look at scriptures in a scientific way. We have to look at the psychology and social factors behind the revelations. Their history and purposes for the laws and wisdom mentioned in them. I’m not going to start the discussion in this article, which scripture is wrong or not, how much they are corrupted or not, that is not the purpose of this article, this article is about the image of God people have. The purpose of this article is to show that the main message in the revelations are all the same, that science shows the same information. That is, stop giving God a form or place. Let’s stop trying to grasp the Ungraspable. God is everything, and can’t be comprehended. This is sometimes hard for people to understand. We are a “thing” that can never engulf the Everything. But we still can have a relationship with Him. We have been created with a meaning, so to know us, we have to start with knowing Him. Some people say:” Look God inside of you”. I say turn it around; “Look you inside of God”.

I am the Pproducer and the Ddestroyer of the whole universe. There is nothing else, O Dhanañgaya! higher than Myself; all this is woven upon Me, like numbers of pearls upon a thread. And all entities which are of the quality of goodness, and those which are of the quality of passion and of darkness, know that they are, indeed, all from Me; I am not in them, but they are in Me.

Bhagada-vita Chapter 7, verses 6 and 10.

O You who are All! You are of infinite power, of unmeasured glory; you pervade All, and therefore You are All!

Bhagada-vita Chapter 11, verse 40

Know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the Lord is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.

Deuteronomy 4,39

O’man, worship the Omniscient, Omnipresent, Originator, Immortal, AllpervadingAll-pervading God, and dedicate thyself to Him.

Sama Veda, book2 agneya kanda, decade 1, verse 7

The visible and invisible universe displays His grandeur. Yea, He is greater than this universe. All worlds are but a part of Him, the rest lies in His Immortal, Resplendent Nature.

Yayur Veda, Chapter 31. verse 3


The birds and beasts, the trees and rocks, are the work of some great power. We believe that He, Wakantanka, is everywhere.

Chased by bears, Chief of Lakota Indians

"It is I who am the light which is above them all. It is I who am the All. From Me did the All come forth, and unto Me did the All extend. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find Me there."

Gospel of Thomas, verse 77


To God belongs the East and the West. Wherever you turn the presence of God is everywhere:

All-pervading is He and All-knowing.

Quran, Chapter 2, verse 115

This is God, your Lord; there is no god but He, the Creator of all things. So pay homage to Him, for He takes care of everything. No eyes can penetrate Him, but He penetrates all eyes, and He knows all the mysteries, for He is All-knowing.

Quran, Chapter 6, verses 102-103
That is so for God is the undeniable Reality. It is He who brings the dead to life, for He has the power over every thing.

Quran, Chapter 22, verse 6


So science and religion can walk hand in hand, they are meant toshould walk hand in hand. They complete each other. They are not each others enemies, they are true brothers.

“For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.”

Robert Jastrow, astrophysicist

So now science serves theology, it helps in the better understanding on how great a miracle it is we are here. It helps to a better understanding of the wisdom given to us byfrom our ancestors.

But it helps also in one real important matter. In the information given above, it is clearly shown that there is only one everything. You can’t have two everythingseverything’s, you can’t split it up in little fractions, or place the power in a certain spot. Everything is one and alone. Everything is everywhere. Imagine, EVERYTHING……Everything you look at, your computer, your reflection in the mirror. The stars above, the whole universe and what lies beyond it. Everywhere you look, you look at Him, all is connected. You can’t grasp it, you can’t form a picture or place for Everything. God is One. There is only one origin. One beginning. One Everything.

1:1BISMILLAHIR RAHMANIR RAHIM With the Glorious Name of Allah, the Source of Instant and Eternal Beneficence and Mercy Who embraces the entire Universe in His fold, nourishing and taking care of all things for what they are meant to be, just as a mother's womb nourishes the embryo without any returns.

['Rahm' in 'Rahman' and 'Raheem' encompasses all the meanings rendered.]

Almost all traditions and revelations, oral or written, proclaim this. From the Bible to the Vedas, the Quran to the Zend Avesta, the traditions of Buddha to the traditions of the American Indians. From east to west, north to south. Almost all people, cultures know the most High. They all proclaim the One is above all. There is nothing else that has power, nothing else that matters. Nothing that goes beyond it. How then can it be their doctrines and way of thinking contradict this? Hindus proclaim their monotheists while worshipping hundreds of statues. Christians claim their monotheists while saying He is split up in three parts. American Indians say mother earth nurtures them. Muslim mention Muhammed next to God. Buddhists give power to Buddha. People who acknowledge a Most High, but are only dealing with their ancestors or all kinds of spirits. And the list goes on and on. They give power or importance to something that is just a ´thing´ inside the Everything. A ´thing´ that is not even a drop in the ocean of Everything. A ´thing´ that is so minute, so powerless, because it is build up out of the Everything. An ice cube in an ocean. When you build something, or mention a name, you use God’s presence. You ´borrow´ God to make a statue, praise a name, bow down for something. When you use your thoughts, you make use of God. God gave us the power to form our reality around us, using Him. So when you praise something that is not the Everything, you praise something that has no power of its own. It doesn’t belong to itself. It isn’t loose from the Everything. It is made up out of the Everything. That little part does not resemble the Everything.

It would be like somebodyI grabbed your hand, folded your fingers so it formed a fist and say;”´ this fist can help me, this fist is special. Hit that person for me, protect me, fist.”´ Wouldn’t you say; “`the fist is not special, without me it can’t do nothing. I decide if I would help you, the fist can’t decide that on its own. I’m its master. Why don’t you ask me to help you? Why do you ask a part of me, Thatwho has no power of its own? Where has this idea come from?”` then the person mightay say; “`Ok, then I ask you to help me with your fist”`.. Wouldn’t your answer be; “`I decide if I help you with my fist, I decide with what I’m going to help you.” .´ Imagine then you helped him, protected him using your fist. And afterwards he would say; “`thank you, I swear there is no protector but you and your fist is your helper.”` wouldn’t you start all over again? “`my fist didn’t help you, I did, why mention it even? I used my fist, and it may be it was an important means to help you, but still I helped you. It was me, and me alone who helped you. Why mention it like you have to?” ` If you praise a created thing, you praise a drop inside God. Does this drop really have any power?

So think closely how you “use” God. In what ways you use the power given to you, and Who to give thanks too.

Understand this and you know the true relation between you and God. There is no space between you and your Creator, no barrier. The revelations say there is no god except God, no power except the Power. This is not only a theological fact, it is now also a truly scientifically one. There is only one Everything, only one Power, One God. All is One. Let all the people of all religions understand this and we have something that truly unites us. This is step one to the higher ladder of evolving to a higher society. This will make us forget we have some differences like our color of skin or language. We are all related, created by the same One, for the same purpose. To find ourselves. All the holy revelations and creeds have the same main theme. We have to drop all the superstition and traditions that stop us to grow as humans and society, the things that are not confirmed by the scriptures and logic. And learn the background and history of the scriptures and traditions. Lets put the revelations next to the scientific discoveries, and get rid of the things that holds us back. Let us be ruled by reason and wisdom, using both science and religion. Let us grow back to another. lets pick up our ladders to God and find the chains that bindsconnect us, not separates us. Lets return to God.

There is no god except God. God: There is no god but He, the Living, Eternal, Self-subsisting, Ever-s ustaining. Neither does somnolence affect Him nor sleep. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth; and who can intercede with Him except by His leave? Known to Him is all that is present before men and what is hidden (in time past and future), and not even a little of His knowledge can they grasp except what He will. His seat extends over heavens and earth, and He tires not protecting them: He alone is all High and Supreme.

Quran, Chapter 2, verse 255mentioned in multiple verses.

Surely the believers and the Jews, the Nazareans(Christians) and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day, and whosoever does right, shall have his reward with his Lord and will neither have fear nor regret.

Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, the Converts; ANYONE who believes in God, and the believes in the Hereafter, and leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord; they have nothing to fear; nor will they grieve.

Quran, Chapter 2, verse 62 and Chapter 5, verse 69.

Who, dedicating all their actions to Me, and (holding) Me as their highest (goal), worship Me, meditating on Me with a devotion towards none besides Mme, and whose minds are fixed on Me, I, wWithout delay, come forward as their deliverer from the ocean of this world of death. Place your mind on Me only; fix your understanding on Me. In Me you will dwell hereafter, (there is) no doubt.

Bhagada-vita, Chapter 12, verse 6

Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one God! Therefore you shall adore the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.

Deuteronomy Chapter 6,verses 4-5
Gospel of Mark, Chapter 11, verses 29-30

God is the Creator of the universe, its One Lord, the sustainer of luminous objects like the sun. He was present before the creation of the world. He sustains this earth and the sun in past, present and future. Let us worship with self dedication of our soul, Him, the Embodiment of Happiness.

Yayur Veda, Chapter 23, verse 1


Him who I desire to worship and celebrate with my hymns, I beheld just now with my eyes, Him who knows the truth, Him, the Living Wise, as the source of the good mind, the good action, and the good word, so let us put down our gifts of praise in the dwelling-house of the heavenly singers….For the Holy One held I Thee, Mazda Ahura.

Zend-Avesta, Chapter Gatha 2, verses 8-9

Great Spirit, You have always been, and before You nothing has been.
There is no one to pray to but You. The star nations all over the heavens are Yours, and Yours are the grasses of the earth. You are older than all need, older than all pain and prayer.
Sioux Prayer

Agree and be united: Let your minds be all of one accord, even as the learned sages of ancient days, unanimously worship GOD.

Athar Veda, Book 6, Hymn 64, verse 1

http://19.org/index.php?id=91,418,0,0,1,0
 lifebeyondearth
Joined: 11/13/2007
Msg: 34
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/28/2008 11:35:42 AM
Every object with mass is made of atoms and atoms are made of subatomic particles.

The variation in qualities and behavior of elements is due to the QUANTITTY and ORDER of particles.

The variation in qualities and behavior of molecules is due to the QUANTITTY and ORDER of elements.

The variation in qualities and behavior of organisms is due to the QUANTITTY and ORDER of molecules.

The variation in qualities and behavior of DNA of organisms is due to the QUANTITTY and ORDER of molecules, that is, of subatomic particles.

Now, the question is this:

Why does a particular QUANTITY of the SAME fundamental particle (let's call it "a point of existence") and a particular ORDER of them result in this or that behavior?

In other words, in the beginning of creation, about 13.7 billions years ago, the particles must have contained all these information/laws that they would end up...

This is important, since it leads us to acknowledging the existence of information/laws that dictate the results.

Here is an illustration:

You have a box of marbles. They all look alike. They are all made of the same amount and quality of glass. You put some of them next to each other nothing happens. But, occasionally, a particular order changes the color of some. You continue experimenting with this magic marbels. When you put many of them next to each other nothing happens. But, rarely, a particular QUANTITY and ORDER of the marbles create colorful and functioning shapes. Once you get a dancing cluster of marbles. Another time, you get a singing group of marbles. Then, what do you think about each individual marble?

To me, this is one of the reflections that brings me face to facte to God's knowledge and power.
 ZeroSpazz
Joined: 1/31/2008
Msg: 35
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/28/2008 1:25:04 PM
"I am that I am"
Or
"I-shall-be that I-shall-be."

Two things that cannot be proven, God, and spontaneous life from the primordial ooze.

Questions raised because we cannot prove either...

Are we the sum of the universe trying to understand itself?
Or
Are we truely created in Gods own image?

What is the point of existance? The point of existance is that niether question can be raised without it.

Points to ponder....

Would God, a singular being, know his own existance to be true without the existance of other sentient life?

Would the universe exist without thinking beings to wonder upon its glory and mysteries?

If our sun goes supernova and earth is destroyed would the universe still exist, would God?

Such arrogant questions from such an insignificant species.

The correct question would be...

If the the sun goes supernova and the earth is destroyed who would remember us?
For all records of our existance would be wiped out.

End of story...
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 36
view profile
History
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/28/2008 10:46:41 PM

Not a true statement ...... evolution is only a theory


I laugh when I see people post this. They're invariably non-scientific types who have no idea what a scientific "theory" really is.


There are NO transforming fossils found not one! With the evolution theory there should be many. Einstein said there would be many but he was wrong.


Bzzt! First of all, I'm not sure what you specifically mean by "transforming fossils." If you mean fossils where one clearly distinct species magically changes to another while you look at it... you're correct. However, if you mean "here's a chimp" and "here's a proto-ape" and you're looking for the fossils of species "in-between" the two, you're dead wrong. Numerous examples of evolutionary sequences exist in the fossil record.

Second, what the hell does Einstein have to do with evolution? Perhaps you mean Darwin? And he said no such thing. *shrug*
 Is too hot
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 37
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/17/2008 7:03:18 PM

The second law of thermodynamics brings forth the concept that living matter could not come from non living matter, because entropy does not work in reverse.


The second law says no such thing. This is what the second law says:
"The entropy of an isolated system not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium."

There is no rule in thermodynamics that states that the universe must homogenously decay into chaos, which is what you are arguing. Quite the contrary, entropy can decrease but energy must be used to maintain that state. The use of energy will slowly reverse that isolated state into increased entropy. Note the formation and death of stars, for example.

Life, a reduction of entropy, can exist as long as there is an energy source that supplies the energy that keeps it in that unfavored state. Once you remove the external energy source, entropy will maximize to chaos.


...then at some point of time in the past it must have been in a state of minimum or zero entropy.

No. The state of the universe prior to the Big Bang was a singularity. The physical laws we know don't apply to singularities. Matter before the big bang is believed to have been an inhomogenous mix of photons, electrons and baryons, not what you would think of as zero entropy. And, don't forget that time did not exist before the Big Bang. That's what started time. There was no before.


Therefore "something " had to create the matter at the start . Something had to put life or teleonomy in matter, to be able to have 'living' things, because it does not arise by itself.

No. Matter could just as easily be eternal as any "something" you have in mind. As a matter of fact, matter is eternal since time began after the Big Bang, as I've written already. Nothing precedes matter in time. Matter cannot be destroyed. Therefore, matter is eternal.
Teleonomy is a human concept that I would not lean on for support in speculation about the universe.

I liked your reasoning but some of your underpinnings don't fit what we know right now. Or maybe those things I mentioned are wrong. Who knows? Anyway, you still have much work to do.
 Is too hot
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 38
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/18/2008 10:50:06 PM
I'll respond if you promise not to accuse me of stalking you. Oh, what the heck, I'll do it anyway.

I posted my summary for a paticular reason. It is really a trap. But I am not yet ready to disclose the obvious deception.

OK. Take your sweet time. I can wait for you to reveal your secret.


Entropy in the universe will increase, homogenously or not. I did not use the word homogenously.

I'm good with that. However, you used your statement to try to make a point that life could not exist without a causative agent due to the Second Law and that is not correct. That's what I was disagreeing with. Otherwise, you are correct that, eventually, all systems in the universe will, given time, degenerate to the state you've eloquently described. Heat death.


No evidence exists of this big bang "theory". It's just a story,fiction. More fictional than Popeye.

I've posted this before but you obviuosly didn't see it. I await your comment.
http://astrophysics.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_cosmic_background_radiation

http://www.mssl.ucl.ac.uk/www_astro/submm/CMB1.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation



This wild idea of time being non existent before the non existent "big bang" BS theory is wrong ...
For your claim the "big bang" started time.
NO, NO, NO. If this pre bb matter existed, it MUST have been able to have had TIME to exist.

If you insist. That goes against modern cosmology but who are those guys to know? The whole thing about cosmology is that it's established that time exists only when matter exists (not plasma, that's a very important distinction). No matter, no time. Weird concept but there's evidence for it. Go figure.


You stated, " Matter cannot be destroyed. Therefore, it is eternal." You have contradicted yourself. If matter is eternal it must exist in time, or in other words, it must have time to exist. Therefore time is eternal and existed before your big bang, with the matter that you said is eternal.

No, I haven't unless you can't understand that time only exists with matter. I admit it was a semantic play but my statement was accurate, if you accept modern physics. If you don't...


But I definately can't see where time would cease to exist as a seperate entity. Even if there was no universe, why wouldn't time go on ? What could stop it ? How do you stop time passing ?

Here's a start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime
 Is too hot
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 39
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/20/2008 4:53:38 PM

3rd http.......States "....this Black Body radiation could be produced by many processes. Therefore not conclusive, more syllogism.

I'm not a stupid man. Don't treat me like one. You misquoted that page. Here's the text that most closely resembles your lie:
"Although the general feature of a black-body radiation spectrum could potentially be produced by many processes, the spectrum also contains small anisotropies, or irregularities, which vary with the size of the region examined."
See the difference? Nah, didn't think you would.


But what I am trying to say if you accept time as a seperate entity ...

You can't. Full stop. Stop writing absurdities merely because you don't understand the physics.


...it's basically the Darwinism of space

I frankly don't know how to respond to something this idiotic. You win. You've stumped me here. I did not expect an eigth-grader to be posting to POF.


You call yourself a man of science. So am I.

I do and, no, you are not. You just faulted science for being self-correcting. Discovery as we go along too slow for you? Yuo want everything just so for you without the effort? You are no man of science. You don't know anything about scientific lexicon, nomenclature, biology, physics, or even the scientific method. I have no idea what your education is but it's plainly not science.


The laws of physics that send planes up ...are based on proven scientific laws. The same laws that governs the running of the universe. Theories will come and go like lies, ...

Hate to break it to you but, in scientific parlance, the words "law" and "theory" are the same. They are equivalent. So what was this about you being a man of science? Do tell.


Besides, no amount of unproven theories on web sites are going to prove anything to me except that people who believe them are gullible.

Here we go again. In science, nothing is proven. It is supported but never proven. As you yourself have pointed out, science self-corrects when it's found lacking. Like Newton and Einstein. That only lends more creedence that long-standing theories, laws, theorems, etc. are credible and correct to the best of our knowledge.

The other stuff, we call religion.
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 40
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/22/2008 9:39:49 PM
Infidel!

How ridiculous - Flying Spaghetti Monster indeed.

Everyone knows that the one true deity is the Invisible Pink Unicorn! Blessed be her Holy Hooves!

http://www.geocities.com/ipu_temple/
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 41
view profile
History
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/23/2008 5:13:47 AM
Any God which can be proven to exist, is an obvious fraud.
If God exists, then God's existance would be on a level which we cannot fathom at our present level of being.

But, don't prove God exists, instead do something easier.
Prove that you exist, then you can try God.
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 42
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/23/2008 8:04:23 AM

Time was before the universe, time will be after the universe. Perhaps like God, you might say.


The old god of the gaps argument - if science can't provide a perfect explanation, right now - the answer must be "god."

Since you go around calling others fools, clearly you consider yourself to be a sage. Where do you get your concept of god from?
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 43
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/24/2008 1:49:13 PM


Only living matter comes from living matter, life comes only from life, not non life.
So my argeument is, if life can only come from life, something 'living', beyond our knowledge and comprehension, must have "created" the complexity and design of life as we know it.


If life can only come from life, where did God come from?

Or is your "God" not alive?
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 44
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/25/2008 4:38:29 PM

God exists above and beyond life as you and I understand/comprehend it.


How do you know that?
 grapevine
Joined: 10/2/2005
Msg: 45
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/25/2008 6:42:20 PM
I've often wondered why atheists spend so much time pondering the existence of God, if they've already made up their mind He doesn't exist. Your questioning His existence, albeit masked by intellectual eloquence to the contrary, suggests to me that a because a part of you believes in the possibility of His existence, even if just the least little bit.

Your intellect and ego wants to tell you it can't be possible, but your spirit and soul knows otherwise. When you can let go and allow yourselves to believe that which cannot be tangibly proven, then you will have your answer. Evidence of the existence of God is everywhere. If you allow yourself to believe, that's all the proof you need, and proof of His existence will become much clearer to you. Is it not enough to view the world and all of its natural wonders and everyday miracles, or do you need a bearded man in a white robe to walk on water for you?

You will only believe if you choose to believe. But no one will EVER be able to "prove" it to your satisfaction, no matter what they say or do, unless you're receptive to it.

I am by no means a devout Christian, nor religious, but I am a Christian and I do very much believe in the existence of God. I have had many experiences and have witnessed many things that convinces me of that. But I could just as easily choose to refute that and go with my own explanation, too. I choose to believe.
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 46
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/25/2008 6:48:14 PM
Why do you call God "he"? Does God have a penis?
 grapevine
Joined: 10/2/2005
Msg: 47
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/25/2008 7:59:04 PM
It's funny how people like you...

Excuse me? People like me? You don't know me. You have no CLUE what I'm like.

... don't have a problem with religious people going around trying to get everyone else to listen to their beliefs or ideas, but if an atheist does the same thing suddenly it's "oh, you should mind you own business and not say anything because you mind is made up". Yeah, and religious people haven't made up their mind about their beliefs, have they?

Where the hell have I EVER said anything remotely about any of that?

Yeah, right. I've spent many hours debating things like science fiction, for example Star Wars.

Whatever that means. *Shrug*

My interest in discussing the subject must mean I secretly think it's possible that the Star Wars galaxy really exists rather than being fictional, right? *rolls eyes*

No, it's not merely your interest in discussing the subject...I have yet to see anyone question whether or not R2D2 is real.

Religion is something that is even more important to discuss because it has such power over people and the world around me. Power neither positive or deserved, and I'll fight it's evil with all my strength.

I agree that religion has its detriments..but we're not talking about religion; we're talking about proving or disproving the existence of God. Huge difference. Having said that, lack of religion or of the belief in God is far more evil and I'll fight it with all my strength.

See above. Just because I talk about a subject doesn't mean I believe it whatsoever.

Explain to me why, then, you want proof of His existence? Is it merely to confirm that because you know it can't be done that that, therefore, proves He does not exist? Because you, sir, have absolutely no proof He doesn't. If you were so comfortable in your beliefs, it seems to me you wouldn't be asking for proof. Hey, that's just "outloud" speculation on my part...don't get all riled up about it...I don't recall singling you or anyone else out in my posts.

By your logic, any parent who talks about Santa to their kids must only be talking about it because deep down inside they too think Santa might really exist.

What does God have to do with Santa Claus? No analogy there whatsoever.

Explain why believing in god is any more rational than believing in Santa.

I'm not so sure it's something that can be rationally explained. As I said, you're either receptive to it or not.

Really? List one shred of evidence god exists. And by evidence, I mean empirically verifiable evidence, not appeals to emotion or feelings.

Again, you're asking me to prove something you know that I cannot prove. I can tell you one thing, though...aside from many experiences I've had in life, along with my religious upbringing that leads me to have faith He exists, I also many years ago had an NDE. (Near-death experience). To detail it here would be a moot point, because you'd explain it away, for one thing, and, for another, you'd continue to get snooty and condescending with me because that's what many atheists do when someone who believes in God refutes what they say. All I can say is that, if I doubted before that happened, I never doubted again. I'm sorry, but t's not something that can be adequtely explained.

I can enjoy the beauty of the world without having to believe it was created by some magic fairy.

Is it necessary for you to be so condescending? Since when is God "some magic fairy?" I'd much rather believe in Him, than to think I AM him.

Translation: Don't ask for facts or evidence, just nod stupidity and you'll be like us.

What a jerk. I won't even dignify that with a comment.




I am by no means a devout Christian, nor religious, but I am a Christian and I do very much believe in the existence of God. I have had many experiences and have witnessed many things that convinces me of that. But I could just as easily choose to refute that and go with my own explanation, too. I choose to believe.



And beliefs don't interest athiests like me. Facts and evidence do, and I have no problem asking for them.

And because my mind has pretty much been made up about any god doesn't mean I have to 'shut up' anymore than you have to shut up because your mind is made up. The only difference is I use logic and evidence to back up my opinion, not beliefs.
 grapevine
Joined: 10/2/2005
Msg: 48
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/25/2008 8:01:31 PM
Oops...posted too soon ..didn't see the last of it...

No one told you to shut up. I simply was telling my side of things and presenting my point of view. YOU are being extremely rude and condescening and snotty, as though you think you have all the answers and those who believe in God are ignorant people who believe in fairy tales. Can you not discsus the topic without getting hostile? That in itself speaks volumes.
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 49
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/25/2008 11:07:46 PM

those who believe in God are ignorant people who believe in fairy tales.


But that's what I think - gods are mythologies - in other words, fairy tales.

Most of the ancient Greeks at one time believed in the Olympian gods. Now they're acknowledged to be myths by almost everybody. That's what's in store for Christianity too. Although probably not within our lifetimes.

And you appear to me to be extremely disingenuous - if your attitude was really you either believe or you don't, you wouldn't be here picking a fight with atheists. You'd be like, whatever, on to the romance.
 grapevine
Joined: 10/2/2005
Msg: 50
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/26/2008 4:36:20 AM
Ooooh, the hostility doth run rampant in here. LOL. I merely offered my opinion on the subject. You are, of course, entitled to believe or disbelieve how you wish. But you have a lot of gall asking people to prove the existence of God, knowing full well it can't be done, yet, you cannot prove He doesn't exist either.

And you don't even know me, so why the condescending attitude toward me, just because I believe in God and you don't? You're not angry with me; you're angry with yourself because you're in great conflict. I stated my opinion, nothing more, nothing less. What I believe is no fantasy, I am not living in some kind of fairy tale existence. Believe me, nothing could be further from the truth. I am quite well-grounded, thank you very much.

The poster I was addressing called Christianity evil. I in turn called atheism evil. I find people who think that THEY are God (which is pretty much what atheists believe, it appears to me, since they are the center of their own universe) very, very disturbing, but I certainly don't find them fascinating.

Ever heard the saying thou doest protest too much? If you were convinced that God doesn't exist; if you were at peace with that and with yourselves, you wouldn't be so rude, condescending and hostile when someone offers up their opinion that He does exist.

Well, you can call me names all you want; you can laugh at me all you want. Do you think your rudness and hostility has any effect on me whatsoever? Do you think that by being condescending to me and my beliefs makes you right? Sorry, but it does not.

You guys are getting your information skewed is all. Or you're skewing it to your own advantage, that's for sure. Which, of course, is your prerogative. You have every right not to believe in God; but don't ask people for proof of His existence (which is ridiculous in the first place) and then get pissed off at them when they offer their opinion on it.

You are thirsty...you seek knowledge.

If you'd listen, you'd get the answers you seek.

If you're at peace with your beliefs, you'd happily accept that other people have the right to their beliefs, without resorting to such hostility.

Why does my belief in God (and millions upon milions of other people, for that matter) bother you so much? Why does it anger you so much? And do you really think, for one second, that millions upon millions of people who do believe are living in some kind of fantasy world and that you, the "Gifted Ones" are the only ones who possess enough knowledge to realize He doesn't exist? Well, if it makes you feel more validated, then go right ahead and keep thinking that.

I believe in God. Sorry if that deeply disturbs you.
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