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 grapevine
Joined: 10/2/2005
Msg: 51
Proof for the existence of GodPage 3 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
When I say that, I mean "opinions like yours". I was under the normal assumption the opinions you post here are, in fact, your own. Ergo, those opinions will be 'you' in the context of online corrospondence. I didn't think I'd actually have to spell that out.

Again, with the condescending remarks. You were lumping me into a one-size fits all category and making claims about me that weren't true.

***

.. don't have a problem with religious people going around trying to get everyone else to listen to their beliefs or ideas, but if an atheist does the same thing suddenly it's "oh, you should mind you own business and not say anything because you mind is made up". Yeah, and religious people haven't made up their mind about their beliefs, have they?

I NEVER EVER said that. Where you get that from I have on clue. In fact, I welcome the discussion. It's YOU (and others) who get hostile and rude when someone who does believe in God tries to answer any questions you put forth. That's where you're lumping me into a "people like you/opinions like yours" category. I didn't think I'd actually have to spell that out.

***

Where the hell have I EVER said anything remotely about any of that?



You implied by it saying you wonder why atheists discuss god, which means you think the default situation is athiests shouldn't say anything.

You have no idea what implication I had intended. Furthermore, I neither said, nor implied, that I wonder why atheists discuss God; I said I wonder why they ask for proof (or state they have proof to the contrary ) of His existence, when they know full well it's not something that can be tangibly proven. You have yet to offer up an explanation for that. It's all about thinking you are intellectually superior, though, isn't it?

*****

Religious people have also made up their minds; I didn't see you 'wondering' why they bother talking about their opinions.

Well, I'm not particularly religious, but are you kidding? If I wasn't wondering about it, I wouldn't be involved in this discussion and put myself out here for the ridicule I knew was coming.

*****

You were being extremely insulting, and you don't even realize it. Try to imagine how you'd feel if someone had said "I wonder why women bother discussing 'insert topic here' , because obviously their mind is made up."

That was not my intention. Nor did I even put it like that, and you know it. All I said was I wonder why atheists consistently ask for proof of His existence, or claim they know He doesn't exist. I don't see how that can be construed as rude. I was looking for some positive feedback, not comments from people who have anger issues.

*****

Yes, and I have an interest in discussing religious gods. Their non existence doesn't change said interest. That was my point.

Which is fine. But that's not what you said. And that's not what I said. Not only that, I wasn't talking to YOU anyway. But since you brought it up, I'm curious: why are you interested in discussing something you believe DOESN'T EVEN EXIST??? I'd love to hear your answer for that. I don't mean that in a rude way; I really would like to know. Which was the whole reason for my original post to begin with.

*****

Explain how lack of belief in god is evil or how you plan to fight it. How? By killing non believers? Threatening non believers if they don't believe they'll go to hell?

Killl someone? Wow...where'd that come from? LOL. You claimed Christianity and belief in God is evil, so I in turn said the same thing. I don't think all atheists are evil people; of course not. I have a tendency to think you are, however, because you are extremely hostile, and for no good reason.

****

I never said I wanted proof; I said there is no proof, evidence or logic. Which means the belief is as valid as believing in Santa Clause. Except Santa Clause doesn't make people think it's okay to kill other people, or be intolerant.

There is no tangible proof; there is plenty of evidence and logic. As I stated, to try to prove that to people like you is a moot point. And just FYI, Christianity does not teach it's okay to kill other people, or to be intolerent of people. Not one lesson I ever heard in Sunday School has ever told me to be intolerent of people, or to kill them.

****

Burden of Proof fallacy. It's not my job to prove something doesn't exist, is the positive claim that has to be proven.

I didn't realize anyone was on trial here. I don't have to prove a damn thing to you. Nor do I have to defend my belief in Him to you. The subject was up for discussion, and I think it's an interesting subject for debate. Or at least COULD be, if people would simply discuss it without resorting to making fun of people and likening their belief in God to beliving in Star Wars or Santa Claus.

*****

In what way have I acted singled out? I find the subject interesting to talk about and will actively do so.

I was responding to a comment you had made that indicated that you thought that.

*****

What does God have to do with Santa Claus? No analogy there whatsoever.

Santa Clause and god are two beliefs held by millions of believers. Neither one really exists, and just because people believe it doesn't make it so.

Santa Claus doesn't exist. God does. Just because you don't believe it doesn't make it not so.

*****

So why should your belief or anyone else's be considered anything more than a delusion?

Why should it be? Why not let people believe what they want to believe without calling them delusional? I never said atheists were delusional. All I said was I think those who keep asking for proof of the existence of God must have some kind of yearning for that proof. That may or may not be a conscious knowledge, but I do believe that's the reason for it. Otherwise, why spend so much time waxing eloquent about it? The only other explanation is, as I said, it would seem as though you're showing off your alleged "intellectual superiority."

****

Really? That's interesting, so have I. You don't see me using my personal experience as 'evidence' of the non existence of god. I'm sticking to logic and real evidence, which is what I ask of from other people.

Well, what a coincidence. I don't see anything illogical about my believing in God. I would be interested in hearing about your NDE experience, though.

****

Refute what I say? Your belief is not 'refuting' anything, you're just standing by it. If someone tells me they believe they can fly and are about to jump off a building, I'm not being 'snotty' by saying "No, you can't fly.". I'm being honest and stating my opinion which is backed up by facts and logic.

What facts do you have that prove that God does NOT exist?

*****

All I can say is that, if I doubted before that happened, I never doubted again. I'm sorry, but t's not something that can be adequtely explained.

Did it ever occur to you that whatever you experienced could have, just maybe, been in your own mind? Don't you dream? Haven't you ever had dreams that when you woke up you thought 'wow that was so real'?

I had questioned it momentarily. It's not something I can adequaetely explain. And it doesn't matter anyway, because you'd just claim what I experienced was "all in my mind" Trust me; it was no dream. Don't ask me how I know that; I just do.

***

Is it necessary for you to be so condescending? Since when is God "some magic fairy?" I'd much rather believe in Him, than to think I AM him.

Explain why your idea of god should be treated with any more respect than someone's belief in fairies, and you might have a point.

Simple. Fairies don't exist.

Then don't insult people who are atheists by 'wondering' why they bother to talk about something.

I didn't insult them, nor did I wonder why they talked about something. I wondered why they continuously ask for proof of God's existence and/or deny the same, and I offered up my opinion that they do so because a small part of them must believe He does exist...or that they WANT to believe He does exist.

As an example...I have a general belief that aliens from other planets don't exist. But I'm fascinated by the subject, because there is some evidence and testimony that I've heard that sure makes you wonder. Logically, I can't say they do. But a part of me thinks it could be very possible. I've never SEEN an alien; yet lots of people (and not just nutcases, either...in fact, just last night on the news there was a report of a former NASA astronaut claiming NASA's involved in such studies (though NASA officials deny this) ..anyway..I've never seen one...but that doesn't mean they don't exist. By the same token, you've never seen God but that doesn't mean He doesn't exist.

*****

And I'm challenging that view and asking you to defend it. Why does that bother you?

I DID defend it and you got rude and condescending with me.

*****

Do you get offended by anyone who dares to ask why you think about anything else?

Of course not. That's absurd.

*****
So in other words what you want is to state your opinion and beliefs, and anyone who dares to disagree with you is being rude and snotty?

Just what kind of world do you live in? If I state my opinion on something and anyone asks me to justify it, I'm happy to do so. I don't get offended and say they are being rude by challenging it.

No, and you know that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about you calling poeople who believe in God "stupid" and living in a fantasy world and saying they might as well believe in Santa Claus , etc.

Anyway...no matter what you think, God does exist...at least for me He does, and for me, that's all that matters. You're welcome, of course, to believe as you see fit. Whatever makes you happy.

:-)
 grapevine
Joined: 10/2/2005
Msg: 52
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/26/2008 6:14:34 AM
If you are speaking to me, I didn't say God was on trial. The other poster did. I said God was not on trial, that I didn't "have" to prove anything.

Anyway...I am completely a believer in science. I don't believe in the "Science versus God" theory; I believe they co-exist, just like everything else in this universe is connected to God.

But as for change, science changes all the time. God doesn't. But that's a moot point, because, as I said, I'm not refuting that science exists. I love science; it's a fascinating subject. But it's certainly not a religion. My belief and fascination in science has nothing to do with my spirit or soul.
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 53
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/26/2008 10:06:18 AM

Sorry to say, what you have learnt is wrong. You're just too scared to be proved wrong.


You won't respond to my comments to you. You're just too scared to be proved wrong.
 rockondon
Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 54
view profile
History
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/26/2008 11:42:09 AM

But then, it is not enough for a scientist to know all he/she can about the physical world - with that knowledge comes a certain level of narcissism, and with that, a need to prove others wrong
Ya gotta love those generalizations.

If someone makes a claim that you know is false, do you correct it? If so, what is this pressing need of yours to prove others wrong?

If anything, I'd say the opposite of what you said is true. Science is objective and in order to maintain objectivity, you must be unbiased enough to follow the evidence wherever it leads, instead of where you want it to lead, and humble enough to accept your errors in order to learn from them. I can't imagine a narcisistic researcher being very good at their job.

Sorry to say, what you have learnt is wrong. You're just too scared to be proved wrong.
I for one love the mistakes I've made - they've taught me far more than doing things right the first time. I love it when I'm proven wrong - discarding old erroneous beliefs and accepting new ones that better explain the evidence strengthens me as a person - anyone who steadfastly refuses to accept that they may be wrong is a fool. One great thing about science is that being proven wrong is more exciting and educational than being proven right.
However, if pretending that those who believe differently than you "are too scared to be proved wrong" makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside, then by all means embrace that lie along with all the other lies you tell yourself in order to maintain your belief system.

An honest person maintains their belief system by trying to prove themselves wrong, a dishonest person maintains their belief system by trying to prove themselves right. imho.

It's impossible to argue an emotional issue.
I agree. While I am quite happy to discard any beliefs of mine that are shown to be in error, any attempts to disprove something that I believe on faith would feel like you are attacking my character. Logic and reason can take a punch, but emotions don't like getting hit.

As for faith, I try to stay away from it. If I have to accept something on faith, then it can't be taken on its own merits. The more faith I have, the more dishonest I am to myself.
 grapevine
Joined: 10/2/2005
Msg: 55
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/26/2008 11:46:51 AM
Nova, thanks; I know how to use the quote feature. It just gets tedious to use it sometimes when quoting a lot of material. As far as the evil comment, I simply mimicked what the poster had said about Christianity and fighting its so-called "evil." I also believe I clarified that of course I do not think all atheists are evil people. I believe evil exists in all things, and including among SOME (not all) Christians. I believe evil is inherent in a sinful world, period.

As far as fighting? Have mercy. I have never in my laid a finger on anyone during the course of an argument or debate. First of all, I do not have the physical or mental capacity for it. Secondly, I'm a lady, not a redneck.

Fundamentally what I meant was, as much as he is adamant about standing up for what he believes, I will also do the same.

I agree that to have a civil discussion about the subject seems like an exercise in futility. With regard to this topic, anyway, there's very little leeway, from either side. The reason for that is obvious, though. You can't very well say, Well, I don't believe God exists, but maybe He exists "a little bit." You either do believe it or you don't.

As a Christian, I oftentimes question the existence of God. It's only human to do so. A lot of Christians will claim otherwise; and either they have much stronger faith than I do, or they just don't question things. My faith tells me He is real but since I can't see Him, of course I question whether or not he is real.

So I have two choices to make: let my faith and conscience be my guide, or stubbornly refuse to believe just because I can't see Him. Since I have been privvy to events in my life that, for me, DO confirm His existence, then I will continue to believe until or unless someone proves otherwise.

(Thanks for your thoughtful comments!)
 grapevine
Joined: 10/2/2005
Msg: 56
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/26/2008 3:09:58 PM
It depends on your one's own personal interpretation, don't you think?

Having said that, if one is holding out for proof...meaning tangible, irrefutable proof, such as seeing Him, then you're in for a long wait, because that just ain't gonna ever happen. And those seeking that kind of proof KNOW that's never going to happen, so they use that as their "proof" that He, therefore, cannot possibly exist.

Well, I can't see air, but I know it exists. Why? Because I can feel it. I can breathe, and I know it takes air to breathe; therefore, air must exist.

How do I "know" God exists? It's an innate spiritual thing; it's not something that is "provable." I could cite scripture; I could reference so-called miraculous events, etc., but if someone is hell bent on some other explanation, there's nothing I can say to convince them otherwise.

I'm not one to go around quoting Scripture to back up my claims anyway. I don't feel the need to "have" to prove anything to anyone. All I can do is state that I do believe, and try my best to explain why.

I don't believe in force feeding "witnessing." I think it's rude, to be honest with you. I don't like people coming by my house, unnanounced, with the intention of spreading the "Good News" any more than the next person does. Especially at 8 a.m. on a Saturday morning. I tell them, "I've got news for you...you don't get out of my yard in five seconds..." LOL...

But seriously...I feel that if a person is really open to it and wants to know more, then God will reveal Himself (not literally, mind you) in His own way and in His own time. I've been a Christian since I was five, but I still have fleeting moments that I wonder if He's really real. I don't see how anyone could help but not have at least a tiny bit of doubt, all things considered.

For example, there are times I feel "spiritually detached," for lack of a better phrase. I feel like God has deserted me, because nothing's going right. I have to remind myself that God never promised that life would be a bed of roses, that all the pain and suffering and injustice in the world is a part of the sinful, secular world in which we live.

My faith lies in the fact that I do believe one day that that suffering will end, that we will live in a perfect world. Yes, perhaps it is a "fairy tale," but I look at it this way: if it is, what harm does it do believing that there is something better to look forward to after this life? I would go bonkers if I believed this was all there is, and that after this life, there is nothing. Not to say that life is bad ...but there sure is a hell of a lot of misery. The whole premise of Christianity is to try to love other people and to do unto them as you would have them do unto you, and then to rest in the knowledge that, after our physical bodies die, our souls will reside in a beautiful place called Heaven.

Hey, don't laugh! Stranger things have happened. *shrugs*
 clarence clutterbuck
Joined: 4/13/2008
Msg: 57
view profile
History
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/26/2008 6:25:41 PM
^^^^Some people argue that although God is really a sexless being, the male gendered appellation has been adopted as a convention to avoid the somewhat impersonal It factor. Me, I think they meant it when they made God a he. Men were thought by the belief fabricators to be of more importance, value, and authority than women. Witness how the Anglican church is only now after 2000 years vainly trying to drag Christianity into the 21st Century by debating the ordaining of women priests. Observe how Muslim women are oppressed to the degree of having to wear black bags over their heads in some cases, as if their faces are private parts like genitalia. These things are no accident but part of a deep systemic misogyny that can probably only ever be redressed by scrapping religion altogether.

Which will never happen...
 grapevine
Joined: 10/2/2005
Msg: 58
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/26/2008 8:11:35 PM
I don't think of God as a He, really. I think God man man in His image, but I think that means spiritual image. I think the "He" reference is partly because God's Son, Jesus, was male, and so that's what we can easily identify with.

Part of the NDE experience I had made me wonder if I had "seen" God. The experience was so profound and so mind-boggingly awesome I really wonder if that's what I was feeling. If you've read anything about NDEs, you will see that many of them have a common denominator. I was in the presence of the most brilliant light you can ever imagine. The sun would seem dark by comparison. The absolutely baffling inexplicable thing about it, however, was that I could look directly at it, without squinting my "eyes."

The other thing was the incredibly overwhelming sense of peace I had. Completely indescribable. Made my best day in my life up to that point seem like torture, for lack of a more adequate way to explain it.

Another really fascinating thing is that, although I couldn't see myself and I couldn't really see with my eyes, in the way that is normally understood, I could feel, and I didn't feel "physical," (in the sense that we feel the sense of muscular movement and nerve stimulation) but yet I definitely had substance. It was the most awesome, freaky, strangest thing I've ever experienced, and convinced me that there is something much more beyond the life we know here on Earth.

Sure, I could be completely wrong, but I think the best way to define God, as I interpret Him, is that He is pure love, pure light and pure energy. He is the antithesis of evil. I think God exists in all of the universe, in all of us, in human beings, in animals, in all matter, everywhere. He just IS. I guess my experience did, in many ways, explain the meaning behind His being the great "I AM."

He is ...we are. Hey, that does make sense, now that I think about it. We exist; therefore, God would have to exist, because we are, collectively, God. And I don't mean that in a superior way, that we are equal to God Almighty, but that God is in us, and we are truly, spiritually, God's "children."

I don't think He is some dude in a white beard sitting up in Heaven on a huge throne eating a huge slice of Angelfood cake, though. I think that's just a simple way for us to comprehend Him. We are "kept in the dark," so to speak, for a good reason. To bear witness to the "awesomeness" that is God would probably be too much for us to handle. Even Corinthians 13 says we now "know in part." And that later, things now unknown will be revealed to us. I guess we are not ready for that until after our physical bodies die, and our souls go on to Heaven.

And then we will be sitting around God on His throne, also eating huge pieces of Angelfood cake. Except Baptists get smaller pieces. ;-)
 Is too hot
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 59
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/26/2008 9:36:13 PM
grapevine,

I don't think you quite have your theology straigth or you have come up with your own new theology so you are not really a "christian".

The first reference to God as "he" is in Genesis. There is no doubt that Christianity sees God as male and having a penis. That's not the weird thing though. The weird thing is that God created Adam with Eve as an afterthought yet God gave Adam a penis. Let's not forget that he impreganted Mary. The Christian god is a male god and there is no arguing against that. If you do so, you are as bad as us horrible atheists.

As far as NDE's, what evidence have you that the white-light experience is not merely an effects of anoxia? Have you done any research on NDE's? I have. Some fighter pilots subjected to high G-forces, have reported the same experience prior to blacking out.

So, I am one of those evil, despicable atheists who believe that the universe as we know it doesn't need a God to run it. We are interested in the God thing as a cultural expression because it is endemic in the population. Sorry you don't approve.

You don't have to defend your beliefs to us. You need to do so to the other Christians. We don't really care all that much.
 ishaun
Joined: 6/20/2008
Msg: 60
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/27/2008 2:49:30 AM
i don't see that as proof of God
 grapevine
Joined: 10/2/2005
Msg: 61
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/27/2008 5:45:15 AM

grapevine,

I don't think you quite have your theology straigth or you have come up with your own new theology so you are not really a "christian".


I am certainly a Christian and I don't believe I have to believe like everyone else does with regard to theology.


The first reference to God as "he" is in Genesis. There is no doubt that Christianity sees God as male and having a penis. That's not the weird thing though. The weird thing is that God created Adam with Eve as an afterthought yet God gave Adam a penis. Let's not forget that he impreganted Mary. The Christian god is a male god and there is no arguing against that. If you do so, you are as bad as us horrible atheists.


No, they don't see God as having a penis. God Himself did not impregnate Mary. There is no sense in trying to explain it to you, because you are hell bent on the simple explanation for it.


As far as NDE's, what evidence have you that the white-light experience is not merely an effects of anoxia? Have you done any research on NDE's? I have.


I've done hours of research on it. What evidence do I have? I experienced it. When you have experienced the same, come back to me and then start your rant about how it's only anoxia and whatever other excuse you want to attribute to it.


Some fighter pilots subjected to high G-forces, have reported the same experience prior to blacking out.


I didn't just black out; my had stopped beating.


So, I am one of those evil, despicable atheists who believe that the universe as we know it doesn't need a God to run it. We are interested in the God thing as a cultural expression because it is endemic in the population. Sorry you don't approve.


You are one of those evil despicable atheists who are evidently hostile and angry toward those of us who believe in God that you have to resort to insults and belittling and haughtiness and mockery, stating that how we interpret our God is wrong, or what we've experienecd is merely "blacking out." First of all, if you black out, you lose consciousness, and therefore, all thought. I lost physical consciousness; my heart stopped beating, yet I realized I was still in existence. I told you there was no sense in trying to explain it, and you are one of the reasons I rarely talk about it. I don't appreciate being told, essentially, that I'm lying or that I'm too ignorant to know what's going on. *I'M* the one who experienced it, and I just KNOW it was not as simple as a "chemical brain reaction." You can either believe or disbelieve it; I really don't care one way or the other.


You don't have to defend your beliefs to us. You need to do so to the other Christians. We don't really care all that much.


I wasn't defending my beliefs...I was answering a question directed to me. I also hate it when an individual speaks and uses the term "we." Since when were you appointed the spokesperson for all other nonChristians? It might be just barely possible some people are interested in hearing what I have to say. If you're not, that's fine. But keep your condescending remarks to yourself, because I don't really care all that much what you think about experiences which I've had, nor what you think about how I intrepret the God I worship.
 grapevine
Joined: 10/2/2005
Msg: 62
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/27/2008 6:12:33 AM
With all due respect, that may have been your experience, but it wasn't mine. I don't dispute the fact there were physical aspects to the event; I lost consciousness and my heart stopped beating briefly. It went beyond that. You cannot possibly begin to understand what I experienced unless you experienced the exact same thing, and also experienced it from my perspective. You know, there have been people who were die-hard atheists who had NDEs who came back convinced that God does indeed exist. And I vehemently disagree with your last statement. I mean fiercely disagree with it. It is such a patently absurd statement it almost bears no response. I will simply state that nothing could be further from the truth; in fact, it encourages us to actively seek to understand the world around us. God gave us a brain for a reason, and it wasn't to sit around idly twiddling our thumbs.
 grapevine
Joined: 10/2/2005
Msg: 63
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/27/2008 8:23:19 AM

What typical arrogance! And what makes you think your personal experience is the superior one or the one that 'should' happen to everyone else?


Arrogance? If anyone 's displaying typical arrogance, it's those who have the gall to state my experience was not what I believe it to be, and to make judgments about how I interepret God. My experience is "superior" as you put it, because it is MINE. Not his, and not yours, but MINE. You are not in a position to refute the event that *I* personally experienced. You are welcome to ask questions, but you have no right whatsoever to claim it wasn't what I thought it was.


The fact that different people with different beliefs having different experiences should be a strong indicator even to you that it's in the person's mind.


No, it doesn't do that at all. In fact, it's an even stronger indicator that they are real because they are different experiences. But most NDEs do have common denominators.


Not to mention it's been confirmed repeatedly in the lab that such experiences can be duplicated via electrodes to the brain. Perhaps you should read up on it.


I have read up on it. I've studied countless articles, interviews, discussions, experiences related by Christians and non-Christians alike. And I've studied the doubting Thomases, too, who think they are intellectually superior to everyone and everything, including the Lord God Almighty. LOL, as if! They, too, don't have the advantage of having experienced it in reality. I've had chemically induced odd things happen to me, too. Wasn't even close. Perhaps you should read up on how many scientists and physicians and people who used to be agnostic or atheist now believe in God because of their experience or because of the numerous people who have related such experiences, not to mention have come back after being unconscious and even declared clincially dead to describe conversation or seeing an event or object that was going on while they were "out of body."


But let me guess, I'm being hostile and rude by pointing out your experience has been proven to be nothing special and many people have different ones based upon their particular beliefs and mindsets, right?


My experience (and that of others who have been through similar things) have not been proven to be anything of the kind.

No, you're not being hostlile; you're being rude and ignorant, and deliberately sarcastic and antagonistic. You're claiming I'm full of it, rather than admitting that you just don't know ...because you don't. You weren't there. You don't know. I was there. I do. End of story.
 Is too hot
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 64
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/27/2008 8:36:10 AM
I am certainly a Christian and I don't believe I have to believe like everyone else does with regard to theology.

You claim to be a Christian but you have already denied one of the semen-al (sorry, couldn't resist) tenets of the religion. What else have you rejected? What would you reject if you only knew more about the religion you've embraces? Why did you even embrace it to being with?

Tell me, do you approve of slavery? How about prostitution? The killing of babies? The killing of children? Do you believe that pi is exactly three? Are stars glued to a shell above this flat earth? Should fig trees be destroyed because they don't bear fruit out of season? Silly, isn't it? It's all in the Bible.


No, they don't see God as having a penis. God Himself did not impregnate Mary. There is no sense in trying to explain it to you, because you are hell bent on the simple explanation for it.

Yes, they did so make God male. Otherwise, the word "he" would not have been used. And, yes, God did impregnate Mary. Mary was pregnant. Joe didn't do it, per the story. He may not have had sex with her but he did impregnate her. You need to review the myth.


I've done hours of research on it. What evidence do I have? I experienced it. When you have experienced the same, come back to me and then start your rant about how it's only anoxia and whatever other excuse you want to attribute to it.

I've had surgery but I'm not a surgeon. I've passed out but I don't know exactly why. I sleep every day but I don't know exactly why my brain needs it. You have experienced something that can be explained by ordinary phenomena but you're using it to bolster your physically-unsupported assumptions. This doesn't even qualify as God of the gaps. Ignorance doesn't make anyone right.


didn't just black out; my had stopped beating.

Anoxia. Look it up.


You are one of those evil despicable atheists who are evidently hostile and angry toward those of us who believe in God that you have to resort to insults and belittling and haughtiness and mockery, stating that how we interpret our God is wrong, or what we've experienecd is merely "blacking out." First of all, if you black out, you lose consciousness, and therefore, all thought. I lost physical consciousness; my heart stopped beating, yet I realized I was still in existence. I told you there was no sense in trying to explain it, and you are one of the reasons I rarely talk about it. I don't appreciate being told, essentially, that I'm lying or that I'm too ignorant to know what's going on. *I'M* the one who experienced it, and I just KNOW it was not as simple as a "chemical brain reaction." You can either believe or disbelieve it; I really don't care one way or the other.

Nope. Most of my friends are Christians. They need a god because it gives them solace; I don't. I could care less what you believe but you seem to be consumed with prejudice of atheists which is, to me, born of ignorance. Since every religion creates the god they want, I don't really care how your particular sect defines your god. Where does "judge not..." come from anyway?

Your knowledge of medicine is seriously wanting. Blacking out does not stop all thought. People who black out still have an active brain. Did you say you did research on this? And you don't know this? Frankly, the fact that you had the experience is exactly why your interpretation of it is suspect. There are many people on this planet who hallucinate and it's pretty much useless to tell them that what they saw didn't happen. I would be interested to read as to how you "know" it wasn't a simple unremarkable cerebral effect. However, if you really don't know enough about physiology to know that the brain doesn't shut down whn consciouness does, don't bother. Don't lose any SLEEP over it.


I also hate it when an individual speaks and uses the term "we." Since when were you appointed the spokesperson for all other nonChristians?

Aren't you speaking for Christians? No? Look at your penultimate paragraph. See the collective pronoun "we" anywhere? Do you own a mirror?


It might be just barely possible some people are interested in hearing what I have to say. If you're not, that's fine. But keep your condescending remarks to yourself, because I don't really care all that much what you think about experiences which I've had, nor what you think about how I intrepret the God I worship.

No, I think most of us atheists have pretty much heard just about every anti-atheist argument there is. Your opinion is nothing new. It's basically what we hear from a Christian who really doesn't know what Christianity is but, rather, redefines it according ot their needs. You are correct when you say that atheists have devoted more time reviewing religions. That's why they're athesits.

As far as condescending, you're the one who holds that everyone who disagrees with you does so out of arrogance. You've already demonstrated that you don't know much about the one phenomenon you've hinged your belief on. So why shouldn't you be dismissed as just another uninformed, lukewarm theist?

By the way, you do realize that to every other religion on this planet, you are an atheist? Chew on that a bit.
 grapevine
Joined: 10/2/2005
Msg: 65
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/27/2008 9:45:23 AM

So in regards to your experience, you don't think it's possible you could be wrong in your interpretation. Hence that whole arrogance attribute I stated, the delusion that you are infalliable.


It's POSSIBLE, but I don't believe that's the case. And the arrogance is with your stating that it ISN'T POSSIBLE that I'm RIGHT. You werent there. I WAS. I have a distinct advantage over you in that regard.


As to your interpretation of god...who cares?


What an immature little SNOT you are. I was ASKED what my interpretation of God is, and I answered it. *I* care. That's who cares. That you don't, *I* don't care.


If someone believes in fairies, and I tell them fairies don't exist, their interpretation on whether fairies have silver wings or golden ones is irrelevent.


Well, I don't believe fairies exist either, but who the hell are you to tell someone they do or do not? Like you are the leading authority on the subject of fairies, or of God. LOL.


Actually, I do. Everyone has a right to be critical and sceptical about any personal claim and favor empirical evidence over it.


You may be critical and sKeptical, but you have no right to claim, essentialy, that I'm lying or that my interpretation is wrong.

We arent talking about invisible pet dragons, now, are we?


So you think dreams must be real then because it's a fact they are different experiences that tend to have common denominators?


Did I say that? Did I say anything whatsoever about dreams? I wasn't talking about dreams; I was talking about NDEs and evidence of God's existence related to those NDEs. Has nothing to do with dreams whatsoever.


Most people think they are superior to fictional entities, with the basic criteria being people verifiably exist.


Most? Is that a fact? Funny how millions upon millions..nay, a billion or more, even, believe in God, Buddha, etc., or at least some kind of superior being. Atheists think they are that superior being.


Yes and there's countless christians and other religious followers who've left their religion having discovered it's a bunch of nonsense. What's your point?


Really? I can't recall having read one account where anyone who has experienced it thought it was nonsense. What's my point? The question has already been answered for you.


My point was your experience is nothing special to anyone else. For you, I'm sure it was. A child's invisible friend is a very special experience for them as well. That doesn't make it real.


You are a condescending *****. Speak for yourself. You have no right to claim how my experience is viewed by people, or how it affects people. And God is not just my "invisible friend." If you can't have a civil discussion without resorting to insulting me for my beliefs, then keep your snide comments to yourself.


So grapevine, answer me this: What's the difference between a person who believes in fairies, and a person who believes in god (such as yourself)?


I believe in God (proper noun, hon) because He exists. I don't believe in fairies, because fairies don't exist.


You said fairies don't exist, even though a fairy believer can use every single arguement you've used to claim that fairies do indeed exist.


I've never known any fairy to perform miracles. Although Liberace ...nevermind...bad joke. :-)


So, I ask you to provide an arguement that makes your belief in god superior to a belief in fairies. That's certainly a fair request.


I've done that and, what's more, so have other people in this thread. You don't seek answers, you just seek to prove yourself as being more intelligent and superior to me, because you are so afraid of what you can't see and feel that you don't have the balls to believe something based on faith. You lack the courage, the strength and the wisdom it takes to do that, and then, rather than just accept people for their beliefs, you have to resort to condescending remarks about fairies and Santa and how delusional everyone else is but you and your ilk.


If you're unwilling or unable to provide such an arguement, then you're conceding we can take your belief in god as seriously as someone who believes in fairies.


The thing is, there are no arguments that will suit you short of presenting God Almighty Himself on your doorstep. That you choose not to believe does not make Him not exist, nor does it make me or millions upon millions of other people delusional.



[Delete Post ]
 grapevine
Joined: 10/2/2005
Msg: 66
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/27/2008 12:42:35 PM

never said it was impossible you are right. It is possible only in the same vein as someone who claims they can see fairies is possible. A fairy believer can easily say they have the advantage since only they can see fairies.


I'm not responding to insulting remarks like this.


Because my belief is irrelevent, what matters is logic, reason and evidence.


Why is that the only thing that matters? What is illogical about having faith and belief in things that you cannot see? I guess air is not real, then, is it?


I never asked what your interpretatoion of god is. I've only been asking for empirical evidence or reasoning for your belief. Kindly don't lie about what questions I'm asking.


I didn't say YOU asked me. I said I was asked. Kindly don't misquote me.


Well, I don't believe fairies exist either, but who the hell are you to tell someone they do or do not?


I didn't tell anyone they do or do not. I simply said I personally don't believe they do. Is the fairy argument all you can come up with? That one's getting pretty stale, you know.


I'm the person who asks for empirical evidence of their existence, and if provided with it, will proceed to spread that knowledge around rapidly.


Apparently millions of people already do, and already have, for at least a couple thousand years now.


So let me get this straight, you're a fairy agnostic? You think it's probable that fairies exist?
Nope, I sure don't. But we're not discussing fairies; we're discussing God. Let's try to stay on topic, shall we?


Here's a challenge for you; prove fairies don't exist.


Why should I? This is not a discussion about fairies. Nor do I care whether or not someone make claims about the existence of fairies.


That should be a reasonable request from your viewpoint, since you've said people can't prove god doesn't exist.


It's nothing but sarcasm and doesn't deserve a response.


I never said you were lying about your beliefs. Once again you're putting words in my mouth. Again I'll ask you to stop lying on that front.


Oh? You keep claiming or at least alluding very strongly that what I'm saying is a lie.


I've been asking for is any type of rational justification for your beliefs.


I've done that to the best of my ability in several posts. You know good and damn well I cannot produce God at your front door. You know good and damn well there is no way I can do that, because He is not a tangible being. Moreover, it is not MY job to provide that proof for you. You want to know Him so badly, then pray and ask Him to reveal Himself to you. The further you dig at me about this, the more anger and frustration you demonstrate, the more it proves to me that you desperately WANT to believe in His existence. Quit trying to reason it away, and let yourself have some faith. That's all anyone of us who believes in God has. FAITH. I'm sorry I can't provide you with more than that, but don't get pissed at me because you don't have the ability to believe in something based on pure faith alone.


At worst I would call you deluded in the same context I would call someone who believes in fairies deluded. Both are very silly beliefs...


You're skating on VERY thin ice here, buddy...


, and I'm repeatedly showing you I'm willing to change my mind by asking you to submit an arguement that makes the belief in god more reasonable than the belief in fairies.


And I'm repeatedly telling you to stop wtih the condescending remarks about my religion and beliefs.


So far you haven't, but according to your viewpoint it should be easy to show the belief in god is more reasonable.


Yes, I have; I just haven't to your satisfaction. Too bad, so sad. I don't owe you a damned thing.

Tell me what the difference is between an invisible pet dragon and an invisible god then.

Let's see...a pet dragon is an imaginary pet dragon and God is the creator of the Universe? How's that for starters?


Dreams are generated by the mind, NDEs are generated by the mind.


No, they aren't. I thought I explained that to you already.


My point is you're drawing a distinction between the two but seemingly unable to explain what that distinction is.


Again, there's nothing I could say that could adequtely explain it. I think you're jealous to be honest with you. Not to worry...your day is coming and then you can interpret the experience in whatever way you see fit. 'course, you may not come back to tell about it, but...


Most people think they are superior to fictional entities, with the basic criteria being people verifiably exist.


I don't know about "fictional entities." But most people do believe God (or at least some kind of supreme being) exists.


Do you suffer reading comprehension problems?


I would hope not, since it's been my job for 25 years to comprehend the written word.


I said most people realize they verifiable exist which is superior to fictional entities. I never said people don't believe in fictional entities.


Uh huh.


My point was your experience is nothing special to anyone else.


Of course it is! It's just not special to YOU.


For you, I'm sure it was.


And for many people I've related it to who were almost as fascinated with it as I was, along with many many other people who have had similar experiences.


A child's invisible friend is a very special experience for them as well. That doesn't make it real.


Why do you keep interjecting fairytales and invisible friends into this conversation? They have NOTHING to do with God, in the context of this conversation.

As strange as this might sound, I am a person and I am questioning your experience. I'm not speaking or commenting for other people.

You are not questioning; you are being rude, condescending, calling me a liar, calling me delusional, likening my belief in God to a child's belief in an imaginary friend, essentially saying it's "all in my head," and demanding that I provide tangible proof of something you know I cannot provide, all in an effort to make yourself appear intellectually superior to me. Hate to burst your bubble, but you are nothing of the kind.


So is your god invisible, or not? I called your god invisible; if this is not true then by all means show us. I would be the first to line up and look.


Another antagonistic ***** remark. You know damn well that's not what I meant.


If your god is invisible, then why did you take offense when I said that?


Can you say "troll?"


Circular logic: God exists because you believe in him, and you believe in him because god exists.


If that's the only way you're able to grasp the concept, then please, feel free.


A fairy believer can say the exact same thing. What I'd like to hear from you is a reason why believing in god is more rational than believing in fairies.


What is this, the third or fourth time I've answered this? I ALREADY told you. I'm not going to tell you again.

This is not a unreasonable request.

It is unreasonable in that nothing that I say short of Fed Ex'ing the Almighty to your doorstep is going to convince you ...and even then you'll claim it's an actor...

But it is very unreasonable in that it's awfully redundant and has gotten to the point that it's boring me to tears, not to mention slightly pissing me off.


You're quite correct I have no use for faith. As for your accusation of me thinking myself more intelligent and superior to you, that's a Ad Hominem arguement.


Do you stand in front of the mirror every day practicing "big words" to use in these forums and elsewhere? Being an editor I have a very extensive vocabulary myself and am familiar with the nomenclature of a great many professions. Psst....big news flash for ya....throwing out flowery adjectives doesn't make you any more intelligent or superior, either, nor does it make your claim there is no God correct either.


Then prove me wrong, grapevine. I'll ask you again, submit an arguement that makes the belief in god superior to the belief in Santa Clause or fairies.


You prove ME wrong. You can't do it.


That's an appeal to popularity fallacy. Large numbers of people believing something doesn't make it true.


And a comparatively small number of people not believing it doesn't make it untrue.


You can ignore the rest of my post grapevine if you simply answer the question I've presented several times now


I could have ignored the entire post, which is really what I should have done. Consider yourself grateful I'm even answering you at all, considering you're being so obnoxious and rude to me. You're blowng a bunch of hot air, the same hot air that keeps circulating around this whole discussion...and it's getting very stuff in here.


What makes the belief in god superior to the belief in fairies? You said you don't believe in fairies, but you believe in god. So what's the difference?


Again, God is a proper noun. Why do you have a problem with using a capital G?

I already explained to you the difference. If you're too ignorant to grasp that, I'm afraid I can't help you any further.
 grapevine
Joined: 10/2/2005
Msg: 67
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/27/2008 1:21:14 PM
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Pamphlets/Mansproof.html
 grapevine
Joined: 10/2/2005
Msg: 68
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/27/2008 2:45:57 PM
Which brings us back to full circle reality that no matter what evidence someone presents to you, you're going to try to rationalize it away. Your prerogative, of course. I believe in God. I have enough faith and have seen, heard and felt enough evidence to convince me of His existence. There's nothing I can do that will prove it for you, so if you don't want to believe, don't believe. It's that simple.

God is able to prevent evil.

God is not malevolent; human beings are.

And God prevents evil from happening many many times. However, the earth is not Heaven; it is a sinful place where we live a sinful existence and where we are all sinful people. God gave us free will and, by so doing, allows US to commit evil acts upon one another. Evil is the consequence of man's sinful nature, and God is not to blame for that. "To everything there is a season, and a purpose for everything under the heavens." Nowhere in the Bible does it say God promised utopic existence here on Earth.
 grapevine
Joined: 10/2/2005
Msg: 69
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/27/2008 7:04:43 PM
im not responding to this drivel anymore; you are simply only interested in blowing hot air and trying to prove you're intellectually superior. You want proof of God's existence, yet you refute absolutely everthing anyone says about it. You know tangible proof is not possible, i.e., presenting God Himself, and you relish in your haughty superior attitude that I cannot do that. He is not nonexistent. For you, perhaps He is. Maybe you're nonexistent to Him as well. Tired of your useless crap that adds nothing positive to this discussion whatsoever.
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 70
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/27/2008 10:48:03 PM
[, the confirming evidence of archaology, history, and science, ]

the CONFIRMING EVIDENCE of ARCHAEOLOGY?

This will surely come as a surprise to the archaeologists I know.

But please, share the archaeological evidence that confirms the existence of a god or gods.
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 71
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/27/2008 11:09:59 PM


I meant that evidence from archaeology confirms the historical accuracy of the Bible.


This too will come as a huge surprise to the archaeologists I know. Please share this evidence.
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 72
view profile
History
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/27/2008 11:11:45 PM
It's sad that some people can't imagine "hope" or "love" or "good" without having it enforced by some mythical being.

I don't believe in your god(s), yet I have hope every day. Hope for the future, hope for my children's futures and happiness. Are you calling me a liar for saying I have hope even without your god?
 lilkid
Joined: 11/15/2007
Msg: 73
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/28/2008 2:22:59 AM
On that note... Its been my exprience that they do infact not welcome sinners into church... That is if you start to openly sin infront of them peoples they tend to get upset...

May I sugest that you are in someone elses house, God's house and when you are in someone elses house you abide by the rules of the house. It is natural that the people of the house would get upset if you break the rules of the house.


Almost every church I have gone to in my life has had very strict rules on who gets to talk and when I dont like that very much honestly. I like open discussions where anyone is free to talk when ever they want without someone say removing your post or such.

I understand your dismay at not being able to express your opinion but maybe during the sermon is not the proper time or the proper venue. The sermoin is a message that is delivered much like a college lecture. My guess is that an interruption dur ing a college lecture would result in the same shushing and protest. My church has a sunday school for that kind of open discusion and that is where you can openly discuss your ideas. We accept anyone who is willing to engage in open polite debate, even those who are not believers. Perhaps you need to look for a more open church, they do exist.
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 74
view profile
History
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/28/2008 7:39:54 AM
Let's talk about historical evidence supporting books for a moment.

Have you read Stephen King's "The Stand?" Good book, but that's not the point. Let's move 1,981 years into the future and look back at "The Stand." We see there are several cities named in the book, from the "USA," whatever that was. Now, we have Derry, Maine mentioned. Well, excavations have uncovered a city sort of where we think Maine was, and there's a town hall inscription that reads: "Derr" and part of a "y" in that ancient "English" script. There's also a place called "Boulder, Colorado." We know this existed, because it's still there. Cool. Now, there was also a den of sin and iniquity known as "Las Vegas," though there's some confusion, since the people of the time seem to have, perhaps, called it "Lost Wages." We excavated that last week.

Does this prove the events in "The Stand" occurred? Of course not. I've lived in both Derry, NH (note it's not Maine) and Boulder, CO, and they exist. Lost Wages exists, and it *is* a den of sin and iniquity. But simple historical correlation doesn't speak to the INTENT of the text, nor its OVERALL truthfulness. Now, I'm NOT saying that the Bible is a work of pure fiction, set in the world of Jesus' time... but "The Stand" clearly IS just that, set in our own time and world. That the Bible contains facts about the world and times in which it was written means NOTHING, except that the authors knew the world around them and chose to include those facts in their writings.

Saying the Bible is true, start to finish, based on some historical correlation is completely unjustified. Let's get back to that Franciscan, William of Ockham, shall we? Evidence of an author living in a time doesn't ALSO prove what he wrote is true; it only proves he lived in that time. *shrug*

Let's specifically address one of those "evidentiary items" as an example of the difference between science and religious faith: The Hittite civilization that was mentioned as being unknown 100 years ago. We'll assume that's true on its face.

Now, an honest historian of 100 years ago would say, if asked, "I have seen no PHYSICAL evidence that the Hittites existed as a civilization, but they are mentioned in the Bible and a few ancillary texts. I've seen no evidence that they do NOT exist, either. For now, we will say they probably existed based on the circumstantial evidence of the texts naming them, and await further evidence."

A religious person comparable to the current evolutionist movement's members would say, "Of course the Hittites existed. God's Book says so." Much easier. Unfounded, but easy.

Ah well, back to homework. Have fun, y'all.
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 75
view profile
History
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/28/2008 7:45:21 AM
Oh, I have a question: When was the last Ice Age again? I've heard it falls "post-Flood" several times, but I thought you just put a post-Ice Age civilization BEFORE the Flood. (Ur, one of the capitals of Assyria (along with Ashur and Nineveh at different times))
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