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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Proof for the existence of God [Thread Closed]      Home login  
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 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 76
Proof for the existence of GodPage 4 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
I notice that the historical accuracy supports you cite only refer to events in the Old Testament. Is there no archaeological support for Christianity?

The Dead Sea Scrolls contain texts from the Hebrew Bible. That has nothing to do with the historical accuracy of the Bible - it just IS old copies of the Bible. Nobody claims that the Old Testament is not an ancient document.

And Hammurabi's code makes for an interesting comparison. The stele on which Hammurabi's code shows the Babylonian god Shamesh giving Hammurabi the laws. The Code stele contains as much proof of the god Shamesh as the Bible contains proof of the God of the Hebrews.

Do you believe in the god Shamesh? If not, why not?
 Webstad
Joined: 4/28/2008
Msg: 77
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History
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/28/2008 2:06:36 PM
As much as I hate jumping into these debates, I'm gonna do it anyways. Here's a simple reality: word play doesn't prove anything. Empirical evidence does. "God", according to the bible, does not "live" on our physical earth. Nor does it live anywhere in our physical, measurable universe. Therefore we cannot determine its existence one way or the other. Since its existence is immeasurable and non-determinable, there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of a "god". However, a little history lesson might get people thinking.

The very first religion that we historically know of is of course the polytheistic pantheon of the Egyptians. We also know that organized religion is the world's first form of government. This was because humans were rather barbaric and the only way to get them to listen and follow orders was to scare the crap out of them, and make them afraid for their lives (accomplished by telling them their "Creator" would punish them with death if they did not obey.). A few free-thinkers (known today as the Clergy) decided to drum up a plot to give themselves control over the people by stating that their "Creator" (Isis, in the case of the Egyptians) came to them in a dream and told them to lead his people. This is a self-generated lie told for the sake of power. And, as the Metallica song goes: You lie so much you believe yourself. This lie has been told for many thousands of years, and continues through the Three Desert Dogmas (known as Christianity, Islam, and Judaism).
 AtomicGogol
Joined: 4/4/2008
Msg: 78
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History
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/28/2008 3:15:42 PM
This is of course one of the key discussions in any forum anywhere on the wide world of the web. I think it's respectable to always see such solid arguments from all sides, but don't you think it's truly pointless? Respect is enough when we encounter different people and ideas. All we do when we begin these talks is create a rift in which tensions can easily run high. Compared to other such discussions, I will say that this one is very civilized thus far, but the God Question is never one to casually debate with devout believers of any belief...
 rockondon
Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 79
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History
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/28/2008 7:14:47 PM

How do these things confirm the historical accuracy of the Bible?
Its because if someone writes one thing that is correct, then everything else must be correct as well.

For example, 1+1=2, bluebirds are blue, and I can fly. You can't verify the last part, but the first two things I said are correct so it all must be true.
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 80
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/29/2008 9:12:58 PM
In Exodus 12:12 the Hebrew god says:

"For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD."

So the Hebrew god seems to believe that the gods of Egypt are real - you can't execute judgment against something that is non-existent.

So were there other gods in the time of the Old Testament which were destroyed by the Hebrew God?

Or will you come up with some equivocation for what THE LORD really meant by this statement in Exodus?

For my fellow non-believers, check out this comic by Rueben Bolling - he has a whole series of God-Man comics, and this is one of my favorites:
http://www.salon.com/comics/boll/2007/09/20/boll/
 Is too hot
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 81
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/29/2008 11:43:04 PM

The is much archeological evidence to support many claims in the Bible besides just ancient places named. Historical events mentioned in the Bible have also been proved by archeoloigical findings.
There is also many prophecies that have been established to have come true, which the accuracy of, proves that no human could have possibly predicted such future events so long before they happened.
The Bible also contains many scientific facts that have later been proven true. Eg: When God spoke to Abraham he compared the stars as being as innumerable as the grains of sand on the seashore. At that time and for thousands of years later there was thought to be only several thousand stars. Only what could be seen by the naked eye which were all named.
How could any human possibly know at that time that there is, millions upon millions of stars and other such bodies in the universe.
(For those of you that think the Bible was written by human knowledge alone).


Sorry, bobo, you have to do a lot better than this. You're claiming an omniscient being that controls all, by the way. Is this all you have to show for it? What prophecies are you claiming? What scientific facts? Where in that prattle that you call a Bible any hint of modern science?

Yeah, after He spoke to Abram, he also had these innumerable stars glued to a shell around the Earth. Get real.

When will you people give up? No only are you slanting the evidence but, by your own definition, you're bearing false witness. You know better but you have to be right, don't you? The Bible is an outdated sham, if you insist on a literal reading. It has no merit. An alegory, yes; a literal version of truth, no.
 RawrSparky
Joined: 7/25/2008
Msg: 82
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/30/2008 5:20:14 PM
But what you state in the Bible can merely be just a fictional statement. We can surmise that the Bible and what is said in it is real, but the Bible was written by man. We were not there ourselves to see God in his major course of actions and miracles and although such a powerful statement can be too prfound for even man to make, it can't be definite. I believe there is some sort of supernatural, celestial being, maybe even a God, but I need something more than just a conjectured statement and a book of stories to be considered as "proof"...
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 84
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/30/2008 6:49:53 PM

I could execute my judgement against your comic book characters and they're non existent


Then you'd be an idiot, to "execute judgment" against something that does not exist. Unless you're suggesting that the god of the Hebrews was some kind of literary critic. Because it would be logical for the god of the Hebrews to execute judgment against the Egyptians for worshiping non-existent gods. But NOT the gods themselves.

And good, you read the comic - you got the point, right? That the god of the Old Testament is unspeakably cruel - in other words, completely evil. Shall we have a list of the incredible evils perpetrated against the innocent in the Old Testament? Let's start with the innocent Egyptian, Sodomite and Gommoran babies slaughtered by this alleged omnipotent diety in order to make a point.

And what kind of person would *worship* an incredibly cruel entity?
 stuffhappenin
Joined: 7/9/2006
Msg: 85
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History
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/30/2008 7:29:19 PM
These statements are nothing more than grandious Solipsism. Actually that is a criticism that can be levelled at all religious belief. No amount of Philosophical contortions can prove or disprove the existence of God.


"Reverance" is part of human nature... and justifiably so. As long as its part of human nature, people will "feel" like there is a god. To a certain degree, feelings can not be refuted. However, symbols that we use to express our feelings land once again in the realm of refutability. Whether or not God can be proven or disproven depends entirely on the definition of God. Thats the biggest problem in the debate... there is not a universal definition of God, so the debate is pointless. Jesus said "ye are gods". Its in the bible. Now, we include "ye are gods" together with "I think, therefore I am" . Now, the word I can be replaced with the word God... God thinks, therefore he is. .. A perfect proof of one definition of the word God. There are many more definitions that can be proven beyond any reasonable doubt... take for example... "God is Intelligence" or "God is Love"... or "God is the word".... all referencable in various religious texts. An attacker can put up a straw man and beat the hell out of it. Some straw men may be more difficult to attack. The reason why no philosophy can prove or disprove the existance of God however is simply that the word God doesn't have a universal definition. Its more intelligent to stop trying to prove/disprove the existance of God and start trying to contain the concept of deity by some various logics. I.e..... God might be this, but he can't be that. Attempting to do away with the concept of God clashes directly against the human propensity towards feelings of reverance. To kill God, you will pretty much have to kill all the people. .... or somehow manage to engineer reverence back out of them. That would probably be a sore sore mistake.

Matt
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 86
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/30/2008 7:38:47 PM

An idiot... Takes one to see one!


But by your own definition, you wouldn't know who's an idiot... unless you're an idiot yourself.
 rockondon
Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 87
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Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/31/2008 12:50:57 AM

Considering some of these posters believe the universe and their own existence is utterly meaningless, they certainly are striving hard to debunk "the God hypothesis"
As an atheist, I certainly wouldnt bother trying to debunk the existence of any god. I'm often quick to pick apart the arguments of others who try.

What I found interesting was the implication that our existence is meaningless unless you believe in God. My thoughts:
Do you have children? Do you strive to be a good parent? If so, that makes your life meaningless.
Do you have goals in life? If you do, they certainly don't give your life meaning.
Do you wish to see your children grow? ...lol, as if kids give your life meaning. pfft
Do people care for you? Love you? ....soooo meaningless.
Are there places you would like to see? Things you would like to do? ...you guessed it - meaningless.
Do you believe a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and drink his blood; while telepathically telling him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree? Yes? Ok...now your life is meaningful.
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 88
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/31/2008 12:31:15 PM
I'd go with a rocket launcher myself - that's what Buffy the Vampire Slayer used to take down The Judge in Season 2.

But clearly it is those like solomon who are the atheists - they don't believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn. Infidels! The IPU will smite thee up one side and down the other, on her might Judgement day. And then pop a cap in your ass.
 Is too hot
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 89
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/31/2008 6:36:58 PM

Yes, a SWORD for the non-believers. To divide those where are His from those who are not.


Ah, yes, how I love Islam! That's not Islam? Who woulda knowed?
 WeAre1
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 90
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Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/2/2008 6:51:06 AM
Going back to page 1 and message 23, which is referring to the descarte line the OP used in his original post in which he made the assumption this line proved the existance of God - here is message 23

Descartes: "I think, therefore I am."
This is also known as Descartes error. He made a fundamental flaw in that statement. Thinking isn't being. His statement should have been "I feel, therefore I am". We are feeling machines that think, not thinking machines that feel.
To be is being present. Feeling not thinking is being present.

My views are being is being present (and feeling and thinking are all aspects of being) and my personal belief is God is everything, including us, but no one can prove 'his' existence....just like no one can prove the existence of love, but the belief that such a feeling that touches our hearts and souls that unites us exists and so it has become a pretty universal belief that the concept of love exists.

Sadly, this feeling of touching our hearts and souls that unites us is also my belief of what God is, but it has been used more often to divide us than unify us.

On a related issue - another poster early in the thread misquoted something from the bible to prove we exist and it was disputed....well, the words I was taught from the bible that declare we exist are in hebrew sounds like 'henayni' - or 'here I am' , indicating proof by declaring we exist and that God does also.

One more little thought - little late now, but why has this thread been put here in the Science/philosophy forums asking a religious question? Unless the OP felt science and philosophy could prove the existence of God? Well, OP, what's the verdict? Has the thread done anything in your mind to prove or disprove the existence of God?
Is it possible God is not 'provable? Is it possible that no matter how strongly many believe something, it still does not prove it exists? Or perhaps it does....
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 91
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/2/2008 8:35:55 AM

Anyway this thread is supposed to be Proof for the existence of God. So why are all these atheists jumping in with a load of nonesense that has nothing to do with the thread.


But there is no proof for the existence of any gods. Including whatever one you believe in.

And talk about load of nonsense - you apparently believe in a "benevolent" deity who slaughters Egyptian children to make a point to their parents. A benevolent child killer - how could a believer in the Old Testament god not understand the logical disconnect there?
 Is too hot
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 92
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/2/2008 1:38:09 PM
you apparently believe in a "benevolent" deity who slaughters Egyptian children to make a point to their parents. A benevolent child killer - how could a believer in the Old Testament god not understand the logical disconnect there?

Add the lack of independent physical corroboration of that and other stories in the Bible and you get pretty much what you see. A very badly written book of fairy tales.

But it's an easy path for people who don't want to synthesize their own coherent view of reality. Damn the facts, there's this here book what tells us all we need to know.
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 93
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/3/2008 1:24:56 AM
If you are making a veiled reference to the Invisible Pink Unicorn with your crack bout a dead horse - the Unicorn is not a horse!
 WeAre1
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 94
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Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/3/2008 2:16:17 PM
^^
Reality is relative. Whilst we may be brains in a jar somewhere and none of this is actually real, we still perceive it to be real and it's real enough to warrant being tagged as real.

That was my point earlier, about the concept and belief in love, and the concept and belief in God.
Proof? nah
Believed? yes, by many
Disbelieved? yes, by many
Agreed even what the word God means? yes, by many
Agree what the word God means? no, by many
Agreed what is real and what is illusion? yes, by many
Agreed what is illusion and what is real? no, by many
What does proof mean? Is it ever refutable?
Is not the word 'proof' relative also?

And thank you for reminding when the benefit of the doubt is literal.
slaps forehead thinking how clever the english language is sometimes...
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 95
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/3/2008 4:09:45 PM

None of us knows anything, especially when we're sure we do.


So you don't know if anybody read what you wrote here, is that what you're saying?
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 96
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/3/2008 6:01:57 PM

I don't even know if I've actually written anything down to be read.


And yet you responded to my post. So something happened there that caused you to respond. If it isn't "knowledge" that my post exists, what could possibly have made you respond in that fashion?

Are you some kind of automaton that only responds to stimuli without "knowing" what you are doing?

Is this some kind of new-fangled Turing test?
 ZeroSpazz
Joined: 1/31/2008
Msg: 97
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/3/2008 8:18:39 PM
I believe you hit on this a little Sanguis earlier in the thread, but if I may expand a little.

In science we have a theory known as big bang, its based on empirical data that few have seen and some take for granted is true. The vast majority of the scientific community and those that have pursued science or take a scientific approach to problems give this theory the benefit of the doubt. In this we know it is not only up to those involved to prove it right, it is also up to those involved to prove it wrong, the rest of us merely listen. This theory has only existed the better part of a century.

In theology the foundation of a higher being is based on empirical data that few have seen and most of us take for granted is true. The vast majority of the world believes this and the minority lies in those that don’t. Even those that don’t believe follow the foundations and laws forged by these beliefs handed down from generation to generation and even emanate the practices of those that do believe. The very cornerstone of society rests on and is built on these beliefs and has stood the test of time spanning back more than 4000 years, therefore...

It is up to the minority to convince the majority that this foundation for a higher being is a lie and is totally untrue, not the other way around.

Oh, and Singular, thats the uncertainty principle
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 98
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/3/2008 8:32:47 PM

You're playing games with my use of the word 'know'.

For the purpose of this conversation, I have tried (though I may have failed) to use the word 'know' to distinguish that which I can prove, which is nothing, and that which I believe.


You're the one who is playing games with words. If you mean "believe" then you can say "believe." It's not that hard to use different words - believe and know.

In any case, your argument is that everything is about belief, and there is no "knowledge." So you might as well just strike the world "knowledge" from your dictionary.

But even without knowledge - some beliefs are more reasonable than others, as others on this thread have mentioned. If you didn't live that way, you'd most likely be dead by now.

But since this thread is about the existence of God (or gods) we'll come back to that - a belief in gods is unreasonable.

Unless we're talking about the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

An excerpt from the Book of the Prophet April:

7 For indeed, my friends, it is for this reason that the great Pink Unicorn is
called Invisible, and that is, that the Presence is too great for our small
eyes to truly see, and to awesome for our small minds to comprehend. It is by
our faith alone that we know her to be Pink, and a Unicorn.

8 And truly those who say otherwise are heretics and unbelievers, and shall be
cast into the Great Manure Pile where her Sacred Dwarves shall indeed nibble
on their kneecaps for all eternity. And serve them right.

9 Yet when I felt myself to be in the Presence I was afraid. And I cast
myself face down in the sand and begged, "O Galloping Goddess, forgive me that
I did not know you, and do not send me forth to eat lunch with your ancient
foe, the Purple Oyster of Doom. For he will force me to eat pizza with
pepperoni and mushrooms, and I shal be most afflicted."

http://www.geocities.com/ipu_temple/april.htm
 ZeroSpazz
Joined: 1/31/2008
Msg: 99
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/3/2008 9:09:36 PM

LMAO! Where is this 'empirical data for a higher being' you speak of?


Well I'm glad you asked Singular, first off let me be clear on my stance for I believe in God and I also understand and study physics. I subscribe to Einstein's thinking, (Who also believed in God by the way) that we should find out how God made the universe work, his words.
The evidence for all of it is everywhere around you and they are all just as subjective to one another as any theory. We can look at the Shroud of Turin and invite the debate that Jesus was or was not wraped in it. We can look at the EM spectrum and the red shift and invite debate as to if or if it not that means the galaxys are still currently receding and the universe is expanding. Remember that data is billions of years old and is open for debate. In either case all proof and data is subjected to scrutiny and either theory is not 100 percent provable. However...
The math is compelling and does give much creedence to the theory, but so too are the laws you live by my friend, the laws laid down by Judeo/Christian ethics that again as I said were forged in these religons that give creedence to a higher being and are the foundation for our society.
In either case you have many people to convince there is no God, you have your work cut out for you and I, do not envy your task.
Don Quixote comes to mind.
Good luck
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 100
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/3/2008 9:26:50 PM

I also understand and study physics. I subscribe to Einstein's thinking, (Who also believed in God by the way)


Einstein did not believe in a personal god - the kind who cares about who has sex with who, and says some foods are forbidden, and who killed Egyptian babies to make a point, etc etc etc.

In other words, as far as the vast majority of believers are concerned, Einstein might as well have been an atheist. If all theists believed in that kind of amorphous, disinterested "god" there would hardly be any point in being an atheist.

Whether or not Joshua bar Joseph (aka "Jesus") was wrapped in a shroud is moot. He was not a god - that's the important point.
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