Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Proof for the existence of God [Thread Closed]      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 ZeroSpazz
Joined: 1/31/2008
Msg: 101
Proof for the existence of GodPage 5 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
I'll grant you that Sanguis, these are laws of common sense, but again even your saying this does not make it so. I will quote Obama in his recent trip to Iraq, "The troop surge may not have been necassary, the events there in recent months probably would have happened anyway"
It's all subjective, but if the laws had not been forged in religion, then where would they have been forged? That makes for some deep analysis since thats not what happened. Think about that the next time you give affirmation.
Now I have a headache, LOL


in fairies. Or goblins, or boogeymen.

Now your just being childish, end of discussion...
 ZeroSpazz
Joined: 1/31/2008
Msg: 102
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/3/2008 9:40:03 PM
Ahhh whatever, read it for yourself, then toss it in the trash along with the other stuff you don't want to believe...

Einstein's beliefs...

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1607298,00.html

When you start interjecting imagination and fantasy into a real debate thats when its time to leave.
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 103
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/3/2008 9:59:12 PM

When you start interjecting imagination and fantasy into a real debate thats when its time to leave.


But this entire thread is about proving the existence of fantasies. Why are you complaining about it now?
 ZeroSpazz
Joined: 1/31/2008
Msg: 104
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/3/2008 10:07:50 PM
Well for one thing, I did give you accurate reading but like a true person grasping at straws your reading into what he said rather then reading what he said, he was comparing himself to athiests not admiting he was one. Here is another quote..


Around the time he turned 50, he began to articulate more clearly--in various essays, interviews and letters--his deepening appreciation of his belief in God,


I will admit for the majority of my life I was agnostic and for what ever reason I did not find God or my spiritual belief in a higher being until a few years after I began to study physics. As for your being rude the only thing you have done in that regard is to change the subject. As for the rest of you athiest, believe me, eventually you will be asking for God to be at your side, one day or the next.

But we can play this game all night, I have no intention to change your mind or your views, I am merely stating mine, the rest is on your shoulders.
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 105
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/3/2008 10:16:44 PM

As for the rest of you athiest, believe me, eventually you will be asking for God to be at your side, one day or the next.


Assuming we know which "god" you even mean.

If you believe in the god of the Hebrews, and you meet someone who only believes in the Hindu gods - is the Hindu-god worshipper an atheist? They believe in the Hebrew god no more than we equal-opportunity atheists.
 ZeroSpazz
Joined: 1/31/2008
Msg: 106
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/3/2008 10:19:34 PM

If you can't give us a reason why the belief in god is superior to the belief in fairies (or whatever),


Explain to me in reasons that are valid how a childs story has any business being in this debate and I will continue. As for the rest I don't know where your getting your ideas that I am trying to get you to do anything or why your getting so upset about it. Stick to the debate and lets go. Your getting more emotional then my Grandma at my wifes funeral.
As for you Nancy your ambiguity deserves no response from me.
 Is too hot
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 107
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/3/2008 10:31:58 PM
I believe you all are arguing at cross purposes. There's no god that science can disprove. A god is, by definition, supernatural and aphysical such that science cannot prove or disprove its presence.

One can believe in a god no matter what science establishes. The mere fact that science has described a universe that doesn't need a god to function just as it does, does not meant that a god does not exist. A god that monitors (a Watcher) certainly is possible. Merely because popular culture has colored the mainstream concept of a god as "all good" and "loving" has nothing to do with anyone else's concept of a god.

I wouldn't quarrel over what Einstein said. He was a human, just like the rest of us, with the same practical barriers the rest of us face. He was right four times. In some other things, he was wrong. The man suffered for most of his adult life being labeled a "genius" by the public while other geniuses got to have all the fun while avoiding that label. If he believed in any form of god or not, great. What does that have to do with anything?
 ZeroSpazz
Joined: 1/31/2008
Msg: 108
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/3/2008 10:33:44 PM

Because the belief in fairies is equal to the belief in god.


The mere fact that your asking this question gives creedence to the fact that I shouldn't even be having this conversation with you. Is there a book of fairies thats 400o years old? Did fairies suffer like Jesus? Did fairies pass down morals beliefs and laws that are the cornerstone to our society? Come on, your a grown man, can't you do better then fairies? Or do you have a fixation on them we need to know about?
 ZeroSpazz
Joined: 1/31/2008
Msg: 109
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/3/2008 10:52:09 PM

Therefore I rest my case. Now you know why I treat your belief in god like how I would treat someone who believes in fairies. A childish idea with no basis in fact or reason, and one that rational adults don't subscribe to.


And I'm suppose to be impressed by this how? I am not sure what bone your trying to pick and why. I laid out all the reasons and you ignored them, just do me a favor, the next time you go anywhere, try and do it without driving by a church. You have a lot of windmills to slay...Don Quixote
 rockondon
Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 110
view profile
History
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/3/2008 11:01:36 PM

So again, I'm patiently and politely asking you to explain why the belief in god is superior to the belief in fairies
I'm bored. So I'm going to grant the god presumption and answer hypothetically.

There is enormous amounts of literary evidence written for centuries that discuss the existence of God - including witness accounts. God also has more explanatory power - faeries do not account for the existence of all things in the universe, nor the natural laws that govern them. Nor are there 2 billion people in the world worshipping faeries.

Incidentally,
"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic."~Albert Einstein
 ZeroSpazz
Joined: 1/31/2008
Msg: 111
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/3/2008 11:04:59 PM

F*cking bullsh*t.


Ahh, but your not getting upset. Its kinda like talking to a 12 year old with you. It will be okay, no one is trying to hurt you. When you grow up give me a shout and we can talk some more about it.
Peace and love....
 clarence clutterbuck
Joined: 4/13/2008
Msg: 112
view profile
History
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/3/2008 11:12:19 PM
RE: msg360
I would recognise Einstein anywhere but Jesus would need to supply some ID.

OOPS! It appears that recognition was a condition of the proposition. I suppose I'd just compare his appearance to Gauguins Yellow Christ or something...
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 113
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/3/2008 11:16:28 PM

As for you Nancy your ambiguity deserves no response from me.


What do you mean "ambiguity"??? I asked valid questions.

What's the matter, McFly? Chicken?

Why should we care how much Jesus suffered? Other than it's sad to hear about any person suffering?
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 114
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/3/2008 11:17:40 PM

I would recognise Einstein anywhere but Jesus would need to supply some ID.


PHOTO ID, please. A passport would be best.
 clarence clutterbuck
Joined: 4/13/2008
Msg: 115
view profile
History
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/3/2008 11:31:03 PM
Why should we care how much Jesus suffered? Other than it's sad to hear about any person suffering?

The Crucifixion was a terrible miscarriage of justice. It would make a good Dr Who episode to have the Doctor go back in time with his sidekick and rescue Jesus from the Cross; then bring him back to the present day and face the wrath of millions of Christians angry at their religion being ruined.

Sorry, just fantasising. Continue the debate..
 clarence clutterbuck
Joined: 4/13/2008
Msg: 116
view profile
History
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/4/2008 12:41:20 AM
There was a Christian from America
Who met a young lady called Erica
She didnt believe in Adam and Eve
So he left her to live in Rotherham.
 Dirty_Minded_in_Rocky
Joined: 1/23/2008
Msg: 117
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/4/2008 7:27:15 AM
Sorry, I got to add my 2 cents worth but only about the very first statement on this thread. Umm, ya see, a long long time ago when humans were superstitious, unsophisticated, and ignorant people (not much different than today) they had little knowledge of how things worked. Because they did not know how to explain things that were beyond their own understanding they justified their ignorance by creating imaginary beings of great power. These became wonderous stories to tell around the fires and fearfully powerful ways to keep others under control. Eventually we became a little more sophisticated and learnt how to write and these barbaric beliefs were made into many types of bibles for many many many different religions. Over the centuries the odd few were lost and forgotten (or killed off) but some still remain today. And now the first statement in this thread quotes from one of these bibles using it as proof there is a God. (It's kind of ignorant to say your bible is right when there are so many other religions with their own bible saying they are also right but that's another thread altogether). Quoting that a nonexistent being said that he exists does not rationally makes him exist. ...I have a pet rock that exists on top of my computer and since the internet flows underneath him (Yes, my pet rock is a him) then he is above all that is the internet and therefore has the power over the internet. Since it is now written here that this is true then it must be true that my pet rock has power over the internet. All of you on the internet must bow down to my pet rock for now that it is written that you must bow it must be what he wants.... I think I hurt my head trying to rationalize that.
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 118
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/4/2008 11:07:18 AM

...The title of this thread has a capital G for God, as it is a name. It is the Christian God, Yahweh.


I don't think we should let the deists off so easily. Just because the Christian god has been forced on many of us since childhood, as well as on European populations for centuries (on pain of death in many cases) doesn't mean we should go along with their arrogant insistence on ignoring the existence of innumerable other deities. If they mean "Yahweh" they should say "Yahweh." Really, if they are Christian, they should just say Jesus and we'll know that they're talking about Yahweh too, since Christians are Trinitarians - although the Holy Spirit hardly ever gets any attention - it's because it doesn't have its own Testament, probably.

However, the author of the thread refers to Descartes' "I think" argument, and Descartes was talking about the Christian God, which is why we can assume he means Yahweh/Jesus/Holy Spirit.
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 119
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/4/2008 12:10:29 PM

Religious and political differences destroying the peace in their countries.


That's an illusion - it's all really a struggle over resources - food, land, power. Religion and political affiliations are just a handy way to group people into teams for the struggle.

In any case, what does this have to do with the existence of Jesus/Yahweh?

Other then that a benevolent omnipotent deity could and would prevent crime, terrorism, suffering etc.
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 120
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/4/2008 2:28:07 PM

Two things that have always irked me, is how can we say God gave us free will, if he knows the future? That would require the future to be predetermined, which is contrary to free will?


It is this paradox that gave me my first atheistic insight, when I was 11 years old.

I was raised Catholic and I was on my way to confession. I had been told that if you died with sin on your soul, you'd go to Hell, or at best, Purgatory. But if you had just confessed, your soul was clean again.

So as I'm waiting to cross the street to go to the church, I thought - if I was hit by a car before I crossed the street, I'd have sin on my soul, and go to Purgatory - but if I was hit crossing after going to confession, I'd go to Heaven. But the thing is, if God knew everything that was going to happen, "he" would know whether I was going to be hit before or after church. It was a foregone conclusion. God knew exactly who was going to go to Heaven or Hell. And yet we were forced to play out this charade, complete with the illusion of "free will."

If an 11-year-old can realize the logical disconnect there, why can't these adults?

And this was before I ever really considered the absurdity of the whole virgin-birth-Jesus-died-for-sins wackiness.

OR the absolute, mind-bogglingly evil of the concept of "Hell" - any beings who actually believe in such a horrible evil concept - well what could we expect from them? Not logic, nor compassion, nor serene insight - such beings are surely terrorized night and day, with the belief that either they, or possibly some people they love, may end up being tormented for ALL ETERNITY. And in some cases for something as innocuous as not believing in a deity.

The concept of eternal torment - hell - is truly one of the most evil ideas ever hatched and promoted by humans.

Non-existence is vastly preferable to eternal torment.
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 121
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/4/2008 3:08:22 PM
Exactly, SD. As far as some Christians are concerned, if Adolf Hitler repented and accepted Jesus Christ as his personal savior on his deathbed, he would be in Heaven right now, while all the Jews he killed in concentration camps would be burning - for ETERNITY - in Hell for simply being Jews and not accepting Jesus.

The mind boggles.
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 122
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/4/2008 3:14:20 PM

Most non-belivers spend more energy trying to find 'loop holes' in Christianity, than it would take to learn about it.


Rather, it is believers who spend their time ignoring the gigantic logical problems in their belief system - if they have any sense of logic, and if they even know what their belief system is. I know much more about Christianity than so many who claim to be Christians.

And as my story illustrated, I was eleven years old and certainly not trying to find loopholes when I had my first atheist insight - the bizarre logical paradox presented itself to me all at once.

If you want to get into the absurdity of the whole Jesus died for sinners thing, let's do it. But if your faith means anything at all to you, I wouldn't advise it. You could well end up doubting your faith and it won't make you happy, most likely.
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 123
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/4/2008 5:19:14 PM

I don't believe that the desruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was only a means to God's own ends. Think of the kind of lives those children would have had growing up within a pack of evil murderers, pedophiles, torturers, man and woman rapers, sacrifices of children and babies in fires etc, it's too horrible to think about. I believe it was for the good of all involved.


I can just see it if a human used this excuse:

"Well, Your Honor, I had to kill those children because they were living in a bad town and bad things MIGHT have happened to them. So I had to kill them BEFORE anything bad happened."

Yeah, I'm sure he'd get away with murder on that justification.

And mind you, Jehovah was all-powerful - he could have magically transported those children to a good town.

What we find, time and time again, is that "God" can do whatever "he" wants and it's OK, but any human being doing the same thing would be rightly condemned.

And let's talk about Lot, the only good person in S&G. A couple of angels of the lord visit him. The "man rapers" in the town gather outside his door, demanding he send the angels out to him. What does he do? He offers to send them his virgin daughters to be raped instead.

There's Old Testament justice for yah.
 nancymcnyc
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 124
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/4/2008 5:23:28 PM

And because we accept Him, this world will be against us, because we are not of this world. But Jesus says," Do not be afraid, I have overcome the world."
AMEN and AMEN !!!


Yes, shout to drown out those mean old atheists with their nasty logic. If you scream loud enough we'll all turn off our minds and join your cult.



If need be, I'll point out the flaws in your preaching to me on the morrow. I'm too tired, now.


'night, SD
 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 125
Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 8/4/2008 5:52:51 PM
I thought that faith was supposed to be believing in something without any proof?

I mean, I'd think that the line should've been drawn somewhere before "without any evidence" or "without disproof" but isn't the whole point of faith in something to be that you don't care how much sense it makes, but you believe it to be true?
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Proof for the existence of God [Thread Closed]