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 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 50
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Solutions to illegal immigration?Page 2 of 9    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)
The whole thing about "securing the borders" is a big joke. They bring the Somalians in by the thousands and those people do little or nothing for our economy.

They make little or no effort to learn our language or work. Many are so sick or injured from what has been going on over in Somalia ... or pregnant ... that they can't work.

They are immediately entitled to go straight on Welfare, Food Stamps, and get subsidized housing. Furthermore ... they are entitled to educational grants that our own citizens cannot get. They get to go to college, universities, trade schools ... FOR FREE, while our own citizens have to sit back and struggle getting high-interest loans and working while they try to get their education.

You all are so worried about securing the borders when your own government is flying those people in here by the plane loads. I should know ... I lived in Columbus, Ohio when they brought in over 58,000 of them. And it doesn't stop.

Check out the Somalian population in the US ... and check out where they are. Check out what work they do to support themselves. Check out how they are dealing in drugs, have gang warfare in the neighborhoods they live in.

They have basically taken over the whole northeast section of Columbus, Ohio. It's like driving through a doggone war zone now.
 ManeRider
Joined: 5/22/2005
Msg: 51
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History
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/24/2008 6:33:24 AM
Hey Mane, I share your concerns. What is your opinion on what should be done, and does our new president have a plan on what should be done? I'm at a loss personally as to what should be done when we are considering the real financial impact and also humanitarian issues.

From a humanitarian perspective, I think we should consider those who live here, legally, first, and subsequently concern ourselves with those here illegally. Were we to enforce the laws already in place, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
The financial impact? Would this be in reference to the magnanimous financial burden illegals already place on our infrastructure? Medical treatment, schools, government programs- the list is endless-as to just how much it cost American taxpayers already to house, feed, and educate illegals. Cali is already asking for 7 billion in relief, but number show illegals cost Cali residents 11 Billion already. Other states that have far less wealth than Cali are already teetering on bankruptcy. A thread I started on illegal immigration and the candidates is still stagnant, and I don't have a lot of hope that either party is going to effect change. If Obama makes this a key issue, I'll be very happy, but I've not heard from anyon, on either side, thusfar, (with exception to Bill Richardson) that they are proposing effective change. I don't think amnesty is the answer; we already have more immigrants in this Country than any other country in the world.But then,....who wants to sneak into Guam, FCS.

My opinion? I think illegals from nations around the world are here on borrowed time, whether it's mexico, and parts south, or euro and middle eastern immigrants. I think we should fine and imprison companies who hire illegals, from the major corporations all the way down to the individual homeowner hiring cleaning services and lawncare. If Buckhead Betty knew it would cost her $1000 in fines if she were hiring illegals to clean her house or do her lawnwork, she'd be scrubbing and cleaning herself, or hiring LEGAL contractors to do the work. I think it's time we start showing respect and protection to "legal" residents, first, and THEN we'll begin to see change. IF we just enforce our laws that we already have in place, starting with the companies who hire illegals, we'd make a huge impact.

One other possibility:
Give every illegal crossing the border an M-16 rifle, send them to Iraq (or wherever Obama thinks they can serve) , and let them serve our Nation for a minimum of 3 yrs. They will have earned the right to become a citizen here. I'm really tired of hearing the woeful cries for humanity, regarding illegal immigrants, while our own legal citizens are losing their homes, their jobs, their retirements, and everything they've worked for in life.
 BikerBiker53
Joined: 6/11/2005
Msg: 52
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History
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/24/2008 3:20:06 PM
Center for Immigration Studies

The High Cost of Cheap Labor
Illegal Immigration and the Federal Budget

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.

Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

Enforcing Immigration Laws. If we are serious about avoiding the fiscal costs of illegal immigration, the only real option is to enforce the law and reduce the number of illegal aliens in the country. First, this would entail much greater efforts to police the nation's land and sea borders. At present, less than 2,000 agents are on duty at any one time on the Mexican and Canadian borders. Second, much greater effort must be made to ensure that those allowed into the country on a temporary basis, such as tourists and guest workers, are not likely to stay in the country permanently. Third, the centerpiece of any enforcement effort would be to enforce the ban on hiring illegal aliens. At present, the law is completely unenforced. Enforcement would require using existing databases to ensure that all new hires are authorized to work in the United States and levying heavy fines on businesses that knowingly employ illegal aliens. Finally, a clear message from policymakers, especially senior members of the administration, that enforcement of the law is valued and vitally important to the nation, would dramatically increase the extremely low morale of those who enforce immigration laws.

Policing the border, enforcing the ban on hiring illegal aliens, denying temporary visas to those likely to remain permanently, and all the other things necessary to reduce illegal immigration will take time and cost money. However, since the cost of illegal immigration to the federal government alone is estimated at over $10 billion a year, significant resources could be devoted to enforcement efforts and still leave taxpayers with significant net savings. Enforcement not only has the advantage of reducing the costs of illegal immigration, it also is very popular with the general public. Nonetheless, policymakers can expect strong opposition from special interest groups, especially ethnic advocacy groups and those elements of the business community that do not want to invest in labor-saving devices and techniques or pay better salaries, but instead want access to large numbers of cheap, unskilled workers. If we choose to continue to not enforce the law or to grant illegals amnesty, both the public and policymakers have to understand that there will be significant long-term costs for taxpayers.

Its pretty simple,....the way I understand it,.....

One article stated the cost of the USA hosting the burden of illegals is around $300 Billion,...yet,..it would only cost about $42 Billion to enforce the existing laws, and deport illegals,......

Gee,.....
$42 Billion to get rid of the illegals,......
or,....
$300 Billion to keep the illegals,......

ENFORCE THE LAW,......

$FINE$ AND PUNISH EMPLOYERS THAT HIRE ILLEGALS

DO NOT ALLOW ILLEGALS ON GOVERNMENT OR STATE PROGRAMS

DO NOT GIVE ILLEGALS MEDICAL CARE, EXCEPT EMERGEMCYS

DO NOT ALLOW ILLEGALS IN SCHOOL

IF,...the leaders of our country had enforced the laws it already has on the books, instead of turning a blind eye,...there wouldnt be such a mess as were facing now, and
in the future.
 BikerBiker53
Joined: 6/11/2005
Msg: 53
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History
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/24/2008 3:54:01 PM
If,....YOU,...ever wonder why we should deport illegal's,.....heres just one very good reason,.....

WeHateGringos.com
http://wehategringos.com/whg/?p=223

Federal and local authorities are trying to figure out how an illegal immigrant from Mexico managed to avoid deportation despite being arrested more than a dozen times in the past five years, agency officials said Thursday.
Gustavo Reyes Garcia, 28, has accumulated dozens of criminal charges and been arrested 14 times in Nashville without being flagged by federal authorities for being in the country illegally.

He caught their attention after he was accused of killing two people on June 8. It was his 15th arrest.

Garcia stands accused of drinking, getting behind the wheel of an SUV and killing Mt. Juliet couple Sean and Donna Wilson while fleeing from police last week.

Garcia’s past charges include four DUI arrests, evading arrest, and two separate incidents in which he was accused of leaving the scene of an accident where there was bodily injury.

Law enforcement officials could not explain yesterday how he managed to escape the attention of immigration authorities in the past.

For other reasons, check out,....
http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/
 dmotz
Joined: 11/19/2008
Msg: 54
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/24/2008 4:32:39 PM
Biker...
People do not care about the crime and the fraud committed by the illegal aliens...they feel their pain! The people who support illegal immigration are blind to the cost to this nation in WELFARE benefits...Look at California asking for billions when it could have been avoided by deporting the illegals.. ...school for the illegals...I mean heck...every illegal out there is driving without a license or are driving on a fictitious license...This increases OUR insurance rates...means more casualties... But hey...who cares. Let them break our laws...it's all good!
 d0rene
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 55
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History
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/25/2008 6:39:45 PM
Femont Nebraska looked at iniating a law that would make it illegal to rent housing to illegals - fines for the landlord if illegals were discovered. Eliminate jobs and eliminate housing - you will eliminate illegals.

More news on Agriprocessors, they want to move the trial to New York instead of Iowa - $10 Million sounds like a lot less there.


VENUE OF SLAUGHTERHOUSE BANKRUPTCY CASE IN DISPUTE
DES MOINES, Iowa (AP) _ Iowa's labor commissioner is asking that the Chapter 11 bankruptcy case of a kosher slaughterhouse be moved from New York to Iowa.
Labor Commissioner David Neil filed an affidavit yesterday in U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the Eastern District of New York. In it he argues that Agriprocessors Inc. potentially owes Iowa more than $10 million in civil penalties as well as back wages to workers.
Those civil penalties include allegations of more than 99,000 illegal deductions taken from employees' paychecks.
One of Agriprocessors creditors has also asked for the case to be moved to Iowa, and government lawyers supported that motion in a memorandum.
Kevin Nash, a New York-based attorney for Agriprocessors, says he believes the case should remain in New York.
AGRIPROCESSORS COURT DATE DELAYED
CEDAR RAPIDS, Iowa (AP) _ A court appearance for a kosher slaughterhouse named in a 12-count indictment has been rescheduled for next week.
According to court records, the arraignment for Agriprocessors Inc. is delayed until Friday, Dec. 5.
Representatives for the company had been scheduled to appear in court on Wednesday along with former CEO Sholom Rubashkin and Karina Pilar Freund who worked in the human resources department.
Last week, a federal grand jury returned a 12-county indictment against the company and its managers alleging they were intricately involved in efforts to employ illegal immigrants.
Federal immigration agents raided the northeast Iowa plant in May and arrested 389 workers.


Posteville is a wasteland - the employment agency that Agriprocessors used to avoid liability have pretty much walked off and left the immigrants stranded.
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 57
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History
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/26/2008 7:25:00 PM
Well that just about sums up how screwed up this country is right there.

It's illegal for you to be in this country. However, it is okay for you to rent and live in a dwelling in the country it is illegal for you to be in.

I give up trying to figure out why we even bother to have laws anymore.
 VVendy
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 60
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/27/2008 8:51:54 AM
Here in CO the money is dring up so they are leaving. one guy they interviewed said he and his wife got about 1k/week last year but now are down to 300/week. You follow the money
 VVendy
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 61
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/27/2008 9:44:01 AM
gangs will do what they do for fun on money up all over the world it has been this way from the time of the Meeds (little tribe in 700 bc that just came to a place and killed every one man woman child then just broke everything they could and left without loot)

The turnover at our boarder is 18 months. No one wants to keep that job it is too hard.You want to do it?
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 62
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Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/29/2008 6:26:17 PM
THis was an interesting article I saw in today's paper from the AP (writen by Julie Watson) which I felt pertained to the thread. The headline is: Migrants return home to Mexico for holidays with less. Subheadline: In years past they were cheered and admired, this year there are no gifts.

The actual article is in non-quotes, my views on the article are in quotes. One thing I did find funny as I searched for this article to copy and paste was a picture with a guy learning against a truck with a quote underneath. The last paragraph, said "Moreno, who entered the U.S. illegally decided to return to Mexico after spending over two months jobless and depleting all his savings." Many of the sites on the web carrying this story delete that part of the caption from it as they probably felt it would take away from the fact they refer to illegal aliens as migrants throughout the story.

I do realize that some of the people quoted in the story may be legal workers, but the audacity of some of their attitudes are simply astonishing.

CIUDAD JUAREZ, Mexico — Nearly 1 million Mexican migrants living in the U.S. are expected to head home for the holidays, but relatively few are returning loaded down with gifts and cash this year.

and from what I hear, legal citizens in America are having the same problems


Many are simply moving back after losing their jobs in the U.S. economic crisis, a disappointing turn for an annual journey that has become a cherished tradition in towns and villages across Mexico.

In many impoverished hamlets, migrants are usually welcomed home with lavish festivities. Townspeople admire their new vehicles bought with U.S.-earned dollars

and yet according to those who are pro-amnesty, they make so little
, and children scramble to see what is inside boxes as if Santa Claus had just arrived.
Mexican police even accompany returning migrants to protect them against bandits who target vehicles overflowing with toys, appliances, televisions and bicycles.
This year, there is less to protect.

Wearing an Old Navy sweat shirt, Enrique Gonzalez, 38, said all he was bringing back to Saucillo in northern Chihuahua state was his deported uncle's furniture.

"There are no gifts, thanks to the recession," said the Phoenix, Arizona, hotel employee

which hotel, may I ask?
as he waited for a permit for his truck and trailer at a Mexican Customs office in Ciudad Juarez, across the Rio Grande from El Paso, Texas.

Rosemary Guerrero said she and her husband could barely afford the trip to their native Durango state, despite falling gasoline prices. Her husband, a construction worker, has only been working about one day a week in Los Angeles for months.


could this be because Americans are now willing to work those jobs?


Mexican Immigration Commissioner Cecilia Romero expects the usual number of Mexicans to return between Thanksgiving and Christmas, despite a spike in drug violence along the border, but says "some who are coming back are deciding to stay in Mexico for awhile."

hallelujah!! hopefully forever, unless they obtain it legally


Greater border security, the U.S. crackdown on its undocumented population and the economic downturn have discouraged would-be migrants from heading north, legally and illegally. The Mexican government says emigration has dropped 42 percent over the last two years.

Many Mexicans already in the U.S. also are giving up on the American dream. Even before the economic crisis, in first-quarter 2008, Hispanic unemployment was at 6.5 percent, well above the 4.7 percent rate for all non-Hispanics. Another key indicator is that money migrants send home — Mexico's second-largest source of foreign income

but yet I was basically called a liar for pointing this out
— has fallen this year for the first time since record-keeping began 12 years ago.

Mexico is preparing to receive this wave of returnees in the next few weeks. In Mexico City alone, officials predict the usual number of returning migrants will rise by as much as 30,000 because they cannot find work in the U.S.

Wouldn't it be cool if it rose to something closer to all of them here illegally?


"Before, we would arrive and everyone would be so happy to see us and they knew we would take them out," Guerrero said as she sat with her mother and 13-year-old daughter in their pickup outside the Mexican Customs office. "But this year we're only bringing back used things.

awww, I feel the pain, as I lived in Goodwill clothes myself so my kids could have nice ones when things were tough
You feel bad coming from so far away to bring back used items. Now we're the ones who feel like we need to be asking them for money."

Jose Moreno, 25, said he'll be asking his relatives in his home state of Zacatecas for help in finding a job.

Two months ago, he was laid off at a Los Angeles factory,

damn, no name again!!! why not? is someone in cahoots with illegal alien employers here?
where he worked making springs for garage doors.

After spending nearly all his savings and losing his girlfriend, Moreno decided it was time to go home, despite the risk of not being able to get back over the fortified U.S. border.

what a pity


Moreno endured a six-hour walk across the Arizona desert and another six hours squashed under people hidden in the back of a truck to get to California in 2000.

"I struggled so hard to get into the United States, but I couldn't support myself after losing my job," said Moreno, leaning against a pickup truck with his belongings. "I'm going to wait things out at my parents' house until the economy recovers."

"And then I'm going to sneak right back in, because nothing will be done about it"


Manuel Medina, 34, said only about half the migrants from Teocaltiche in the Pacific coast state of Jalisco returned this year to celebrate his town's patron saint.

"In past years, we would show up with candy, statues of Christ, other church souvenirs and gifts from other migrant families," said the truck driver from Tulane, California. "But this year, we didn't have anything because of the economy."

Still, he said things are better in the United States than Mexico.

and the more of them that leave, the better it gets!!


"If it's bad over there, here it's even worse," he said.

 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 64
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History
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/29/2008 7:11:13 PM
What part of "taking jobs away from American's who need them" that has been endlessly repeated in this thread implies they don't work?

The "live off our freebies part" is about the fact they work under the table, don't pay for medical care to the tune of millions a year, don't pay any social services they receive and many other things.

No one ever said they don't work.

But give them amnesty and see how many of them work for peanuts picking cabbage (as they supposedly all do now). Then they will soon pick up on that good old American sense of entitlement. Then----Wait until they get in line to take jobs away from those who have no worries about it right now. Wait until they start cashing in on those free college educations. Then we'll see who is b**ching about them being here and crying whoa is me, why did we let that happen.
 d0rene
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 65
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History
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 12/4/2008 7:59:47 PM
I know that America was founded by immigrants, people who came here wanting a better life and willing to work for it, but when they came here they planned on becoming American. They did not plan on sending every cent back home and then returning there in a few years after they had squirreled enough away to live comfortably for several years. It is not Mexico's terribly poor who are coming here - it is the middle class, because the poor cannot come up with the money to make the trip.

Money is the blood of an economy and we have sprung an arterial leak into Mexico. One of the best things to help control immigration is the bad economy, it is making some of them rethink the trip.
 ManeRider
Joined: 5/22/2005
Msg: 67
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History
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 12/5/2008 8:37:02 AM
Medical treatment, schools, government programs- the list is endless-as to just how much it cost American taxpayers already to house, feed, and educate illegals. Cali is already asking for 7 billion in relief, but number show illegals cost Cali residents 11 Billion already. Other states that have far less wealth than Cali are already teetering on bankruptcy.
===============================================


plzzz, I am in Cali and know for sure that undocumented workers are one of the major source of economic grouth.

Those who are writing this "complains" I bet do not know any person who is an undocumented worker. They are just hard working people who work for much less and much more without much claims and complaints. You have better met a union worker who was a storage person and was doing virtually nothing and getting $8,000.00 a month salary. At that time I was running my business working 12-14 hours a day and was not even making that much.

So it's easy there sit and just theoritically "discuss" "illegal immigration" without being exposed to it.

How soooooo very presumptuous a comment to make. SO, I guess I've given this poster the notion I'm an uppity "white-boy" who's never worked a day in his life.
Geez, where do I start. First, I have many neighbors that are illegals. I have friends who are illegal, as are their children; I work among them in hte construction trade. One lady and her daughter were here last night using my computer; they're from Nicaraugua, no license, no green card, no nada. I'm one of a handful of legal "white" people living in this immediate area....it is otherwise very ethnic....meaning....I'm the minority here, sweets. And I know who's illegal because I have dinner with them, I live next door, across the street, and down the road from a large populous of them. So, please.....PLEASE .....don't pass your judgement on me, that I know no undocumented illegals. You don't have the first clue. I was engaged twice to latino women....1 from Colombia, another from Brazil....and I speak/understand portuguese and spanish? Comprende?

than those who are receiving all these government benefits, going to Ford or GM factory and are in "reserve" meaning they just need to show up to keep their full salary. It's about production and honest work. If these people just want to work, then I think they just need to have a paper, instead of lazy politicians and you here just talk and do nothing about it.
Well, I agree, the Big 3 auto makers here have some serious delimnas...and yes...I know they're paid handsomely....while they sometimes skip out of work, not to mention, they get full pay and benefits in retirement. It's killing them, and we're witnessing that now. GM will be bankrupt by the end of this month (december, 2008) if they dont' get 4 billion in emergency funds. And I agree, again, politicians do a lot of talk, but do nothing. All the wall street and broad street tycoons, drivign their Lamborghinis and Bentleys and Ferraris, are getting hefty-handouts from the gov't while the middle class loses their houses, retirements, and everything they've ever worked for in life. Sooner or later, civil unrest is going to occur. People will revolt and take to the streets. So, yes, this is a major problem here, and you see, the middles class isn't just dealing with the upper crust making off with billions while they suffer, they're having to compete for work with those here illegally, who came from an impoverished nation and are willing to work for dirt. We're getting squeezed from top and bottom. But in any case, we're talking about American companies... we're not talking about mexican or other latin companies.... maybe we should turn the discussion to how well latin companies, in mexico for instance, ....how well they pay their employees. See, we're still dealing with the cart before the horse... and I'm amused, at best, that some people still wish to ignore the laws here, who wish to circumvent border laws, and continue a discussion as to how these people are such hard workers. Who really gives a rats AZZ if they're able to work..... do you not think for one minute that there are people N-O-W, legal Americans, who have lost jobs.... and are looking for work....who can't find a job because illegals are here in the workplace? You bet your AZZ there are. See, when the top begins to fold, as our mortgage/auto industry/et al....indicates today, people start looking for lower paying jobs.... only right now,,.... there are none....or at least very little...and that's primarily because we have such a tremendous influx of illegals still here..... taking those jobs that the laid off Americans are looking for. I KNOW. I WORK IN CONSTRUCTION....AND I LOSE WORK ON A WEEKLY BASIS.... TO THE ILLEGAL WORKERS.

So, plz don't tell here they cost money to people. You better find out how much money you cost to the government up to this point. They can't claim anything, how in the world they cost anything? When I didn't have papers, what I wanted to do not to show up to any governmental organization bcs of the fear of being deported, so those who don't have papers go to the doors of government and ask for something? May be their kids for school, but kids are kids, their parents work and they get education in school.
Education is but one source of funding illegals receive here that are costing our states hardship. Furthermore, it's a well documented fact that hospitals across the nation, in Cali especially, are being forced to close their doors because of the cost of treating illegals who don't pay for services.
IT's delusional to suggest illegals dont' cost us any money. 11 billion US dollars a year is what the estimated cost is, in Cali alone, for illegals.
 dmotz
Joined: 11/19/2008
Msg: 69
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 12/5/2008 5:38:42 PM
Take the 20,000 troops being deployed in the US and put them on the fence we should be building. We should be stopping this illegal immigration garbage NOW.
Take 1/2 of the soldiers and use them to round up ALL the illegals...ship them home...man the fence with LIVE rounds...they come...we shoot...to hell with this crap!
 ManeRider
Joined: 5/22/2005
Msg: 70
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History
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 12/6/2008 8:56:38 AM
I am frustrated by the fact (I am in a construction related business) that I can't legally hire a Mexican dude who is 5-3 ahout 150lb, puts the tent on his shoulder and just walks one, two story houses, and can tent 5 houses a day with his friend without aking for scuffolding and nagging, complaining like you are doing here, and will do that for $10-15 bucks an hour. You just can't find a white guy" who will do that.

The gist of what you're saying is mexicans are better workers. There seems to be the need to compare "whites" to "mexicans"....and suggest the mexicans are better suited for the jobs...... I not only disagree, I have magnanimous amounts of evidence to the contrary.

This comparison you're attempting to make is, ironically, very far from true. In fact, I got a shower pan repair just this week; it was in a bathroom I bid on four years prior, but lost the bid to another mexican installer.

Here's a prime example of where the comparison lies.

Originally, I proposed this steam shower at $6800, they were at $3800. They nailed durock on the curb, as well as through the shower floor pan liner, cut the pan liner all the way to the sub-flooring, and since they didn't have the knowledge, or skill, to mud a shower floor properly, they fudged it by stacking multiple layers of durock on the floor. I was astounded when I tore it out, to find the stupidest, most incompetant shower pan I've ever replaced. So, talk A-L-L- Y-O-U- W-A-N-T about how much more qualified mexicans are. For every story you've got, I've got ten more to disprove yours with. That $3000's seems like a huge difference, but considering they just paid me close to $3000 to replace the shower pan, and they're still left with a botched shower, because of the other lacking skills they had, I'd say that money would have been well spent if I'd done the original shower. The truth is, they (mexicans) have done nothing short of slowly destroy our basic infrastructure by providing sub-standard work for years/decades past, nailing durock to curbs, building wooden seats in showers, and doing simply atrocious craftsmanship, simply because they don't know how. I know their skill levels; I've been hired countless times to fix their botched workmanship; I've been in many mexican businesses and hotels and seen the quality they provide there; I've made the mistake of hiring mexicans who were convincing enough, paid handsome ransomes to fix their fvckups, and it just astounds me how we've allowed their poor craftsmanship to infiltrate our world. There's the real problem- Americans are not educated on trades, and have been duped into thinking they're getting the same work for less by hiring mexicans. And as far as not finding a white guy for the work, let's supplant "legal" guy for the word "white". See, there's that itsy-bitsy, teensy-weensy tidbit of information "S-O-M-E people would just rather ignore.
I care less what color skin or nationality someone is. While we're at it, in addition to "legal", let's add in "qualified". Technology in mexico is Mickey Mouse compared to the standards we have (or had) here. Yet our society has become accustomed to having some cheap labor available and they've gotten used to getting work done for less. Mind you, the homeowners aren't tradesmen, so they often don't recognize the poor quality they received until later.

As the saying goes, "the bitterness of poor quality last far longer than the sweetness of a cheap price".

So, is this good for the economy that construction related bbusinesses can't legally hire
"Economy?" Hmm.... Do you know that the number two source of monies the mexican gov't/banks takes in is monies sent from illegals working here? That means all (or most of) the monies they take in here are not redistributed into our "economy. " Funny you should mention "economy". Couple that fact with the massive amounts of evidence supporting how heavy a burden mexicans (or other illegals.....let's not unjustly stereotype here) place on our infrastructure, from hospitalization, to education, to fire/rescue/police protective services, gov't funded housing, et al, there's really nothing more than a baseless, red herring, strawman argument, that the mexicans are somehow adding to our "economy". No, that's delusional....wishful thinking.....cow dunge...., and without any basis in fact. One case in point involves a mexican that is in a vegetable state, and getting care here in a US hospital. His cost's run the state 1 million dollars a year....to be kept in ICU here in the US. The mexican gov't refuses to allow him to be moved to a hospital there, so we're stuck with him, as well as his medical cost. That's but ONE example. Other than sales taxes on purchases, they're not increasing our economic stability. See, I deal real well with facts.....and I won't pretend that a business that can't "legally hire an illegal" for less money, (which is what you're proposing) is suffering some financial burden, or that it incapacitates our "economy".

Nice try, though.

Ok, not really.

Thanks for sharing.
Keep coming back.
 ManeRider
Joined: 5/22/2005
Msg: 72
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Posted: 12/7/2008 10:29:49 AM
Sorot, thanks for your expert business consultation.

Where should I mail the check?


So, if you lower your #3 and find the cheap but at the same time fast and hard working manual laor and lower your quote to a reasonable degree, you can sell that job

There's a value to knowledge and skill... and there are levels of service that equate to value. I'm already competitive, with regard to the market value of the work I propose, and the experience I've had, hiring cheap labor... equates to cheap craftsmanship. Maybe it's different with what you do....maybe it's not as intricate, maybe it's not as critical when human error is involved. Yet in my trade, you either know how it's done, or you don't. This client picked someone who really didnt' know how to perform the work, got paid for doing shoddy work, and then dissappeared when it failed. This is the usual protocol in my trade....it happens routinely, every day of every week. I've lost countless thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in work to illegal workers... they're not satisfied working for a guy like me, and l-e-a-r-n-i-n-g this trade....from a professional..... they'd rather try and take my work....pretending to know how to do it...... and make off with the money.....see, we have (or had) much higher standards here than in mexico....I know....but the average homeowner hears how cheap something is, and their ears light up......and they're not comparing apples to apples....they're comparing an apple to a prune...... they just dont' know they're getting a prune for the price of an apple.
 d0rene
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 73
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Posted: 12/7/2008 6:19:58 PM
Ok, how motivated would you be if you knew you would be allowed into a room to grab as much money as you could in a limited amount of time and you knew you would be able to live for several years at a much higher standard of living than your peers, possibly starting your own busineess, in your home area?

Do you know the problem with being let into the room where all the money is blowing around? When there are a lot of people grabbing it up and skedaddling out of the room, eventually the money is gone.

I am fortunate to be an American even in these tough times, but we have developed a tear in a major financial artery and it is bleeding directly into the country next door.
 ManeRider
Joined: 5/22/2005
Msg: 75
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Posted: 12/7/2008 10:32:04 PM

I am fortunate to be an American even in these tough times, but we have developed a tear in a major financial artery and it is bleeding directly into the country next door.

^^^^^^^^
yep....the aorta..... or maybe the juggler vein....

There's been a money grab going on here in the US...for a LONG , L-O-N-G- time. . and ironically....there are those (ahem) h-e-r-e (C-O-U-G-H) ....who wish to S-T-I-L-L........capitalize further on that concept, interestingly enough. The concept that fails them is that the monies leaving this Country is becoming a devastation....TO THE COUNTRY AS A WHOLE...... but yet...they bleed hearts that it will be able to continue.... you know,...... because "they're such hard workers"... or because "they'll work seven days a week if we let then"...... like we should serenade their every step. Geeezz... Like I haven't worked 7 days straight for months on end. FCS. It's just pathetic. Wall and Broad Street bigshots, and the Big 3, and the banks, and the mortgage gurus.... all driving their Lamborghinis, Porsches, Ferraris, Bentleys and Mercedes......have got their hands out...(that's one vein that's severed) asking the gov't to force the middle class to bail them out ...... while silently, the hands are out from the other side, too (another severed vein)...."because they're such hard working, 'honest' (ha) people....who do ALLLLL the jobs "elite" white folks won't do. See, that's as big a bunch of donkey-doo as I've ever heard. No, the truth is, the silent plague that's really eating this Country is coming from points south and that vein that's been bleeding out.....has run us dry. Period. We're on the verge of m-a-j-o-r financial colapse in this Country.... and people STILL want to stand on their soapbox and try and disregard the entire legal aspect of it. I'm just so sick of it.....I think I'm about to .
It's just maddening to witness.....WHy dont' people get the gist of this ... we're a sinking ship....we can't take on any new passengers...... I mean... do you not grasp the idea? What part of financial ruin do you not get?

Merry Freakin Christmas EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!
 d0rene
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 77
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Posted: 12/8/2008 3:42:24 PM

that at least 10000 or may be 100000 Mexicans send to their homes so that they don't starve there and start another revolution which is not something USA wants neither.


Sorot - do you grasp that it is not the very poor that are coming into this country and working, maybe a fewbut they are virtuallly slave labor to the ones who brought them in, but for the most part it is Mexico's middle class that are coming in. They have to have the money to be able to pay for trip and still be able to make something to take home. Hey it is hideous down there, I know, but unless something happens we are going to become a clear reflection of them. The middle class will be gone, we will have the very rich Paris Hiltons's or the poor beggars. But heaven forbid we should tax Paris Hilton!!! That would be called redistributing the wealth and her poor little Yorkie might not be able to afford that designer Italian gown that costs more than I make in a year. . . that would be a shame.
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 79
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Posted: 12/8/2008 7:04:33 PM

But heaven forbid we should tax Paris Hilton!!! That would be called redistributing the wealth and her poor little Yorkie might not be able to afford that designer Italian gown that costs more than I make in a year. . . that would be a shame.


Actually, I think the government should double, no, triple tax people like Paris Hilton. She does nothing to stimulate the economy except run up her bar tab, go on shoping sprees, and wreck expensive cars (or is that last one Lindsay Lohan's exclusive contribution?). Now, those in her family, who run the Hilton Hotels, and hire thousands of people, they should be taxed fairly, but not ridiculously to make sure they keep on hiring and keep the economy moving. That's where the differences of redistributing the wealth comes in. In fact I think all movie and rock stars who think they are political pundits should have to pay 50% of their income in taxes. Cough it up Damon. Bet that would shut them all up quick, fast and in a hurry.

And Sorot's last post inspires a question. I thought students on visas paid for their own college. Why would we pay for it? If this is true, I would argue that the USA doesn't have one of the SMARTEST governments in the world.
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 82
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Posted: 12/9/2008 10:27:26 AM

Why not 85%? So that they don't get so cynical and there will be more money left for regular people to sove their day to day problems.


That's hilarious. I originally put 85% in my post, then rethought it a bit. But if we're in agreement.......



No buddy, Maskie, Benjamin Franklin Fellowship, etc etc, are USA organizations, they bring students here finance their education, so that they will go back to their countries and tell how wonderful of a country USA is. The effect - ridiculous, just bunch of taxpayers money is wasted.


I think those are privately funded foundations, not taxpayer funded. I will check into that later today though because if what you say is true, it's an outrage!
 d0rene
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 84
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Posted: 12/9/2008 6:40:53 PM

Virtually all bigger businesses are publicly traded corporations. We are not talking abou corporate tax, but a tax of the salary they wright themselves and the dividends they pay themselves. Government can tax fairly or not even change the taxation to corporation itself, however the PERSONS who make money by claiming the unless it was them running these corporations they wouldn't be successfull and writing them salaries and dividents ranging tens of millions or even hundereeds of millions a year. If that's the case how come now they are Bitsching and running to the government to save them while at the same time writh=ghing themselves tens of millions of dollars of "severance payments" AKA "golden parashutes". Also, I used to work for a big corporation - Terminix, they thought just bcs many salesmen were making close to six digits they are happy, but at the same time paying 10 bucks an hour to many (they were letting us to make good money since most of it they were taking - the pyramic scheme in action). So, if for an established corporation it makes difference who is the president or CEO and that's why they have to wright themselves these ridiculous salaries and dividents, then how come when they changed two times the presidents in Terminix the sales were the same? Simple, bcs when the company becomes big it performs in general as most in the same economy, and it's very rare that CEOs make significant changes or affect a lot. Also, there are 2000 employees in Terminix. The president's salary is like 5 million a year. Let's say if he didn't write himself so much salary but only 1 million a year and devide the rest 4 million to 2000 people, it means in average a person could have received 2000 a year more and there would be no more need to these pathetic 10 dollars an hour pay, but could be at least 20 dollars an hour so that people could afford to at least live colse to normal. I don't make 200K a year and pay 7 bucks and hour to people by just sucking their blood, neither most small companies, that's why people don't like bigger corporations.


I have an extremely difficult time following that post - I think you mean write, instead of wright?

And that is the big problem - I keep hearing that corporations and business owners in order to avoid paying taxes want to add the tax on to the price of their product, thereby avoiding paying their share - they expect it to come out of the middle class. Then the hard working Hispanic guy makes a brief fly through to grab as much available cash as possible before returning home and undercuts the minimum wage - (heck - he isn't going to pay income tax, he would rather take the $4 per hour and grab the cash and run) which leaves the middle class guy fumbling for something that will help him meet the tax burden put on him by not only the politicians but the corporations and still enable him to meet his living expenses.
 musicianfriend
Joined: 7/23/2007
Msg: 86
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Posted: 12/9/2008 8:07:30 PM
I do wish I had a solution though because it's a problem that isn't going to go away anytime soon.

IMO amnesty isn't a solution- they gotta go home and come back the RIGHT WAY..It will cost ZILLIONS no matter how it's done.


It shouldnt cost us anything....and it can go away immediately IF:

They will enforce the law....

And also...some states or cities or counties have made their own laws....

If you hire and illegal....then you will no longer be able to have a business license in that city..

And there was also some kind of thing that if you rented to an illegal..you would have to pay the price for breaking the law...but I cant remember what that price or punishment was...maybe someone here does...

If we just start drying up the jobs....they will go home...at no cost to us...just like they did when the construction industry fell apart last year...I cant hardly believe how many left from my area..The homes alot of them lived in were completly trashed...ruined....thus ruining the rental income that the homeowner depended on..Maybe next time hell be more careful who he rents to...

One man rented his house to some Vietnamese....A neighbor called the owner and informed him that there were 7 cars parked at the house....There were so many people living in the house that they had cut a hole in the floor and the men peed in that hole...they had also burned every available piece of wood in the house...such as the door jams...baseboards etc...

People from backwards countries dont move here and just become instantly civilized..What are people thinking? These folks have lied, cheated, stole all their lives just to survive...they dont instantly change as soon as they cross a border.

I just hope that when they start up construction again that they will hire their own countrymen instead...We as a people should be ready this time to stop the hiring of the illegals...Its just not fair to our own people...

Our American High School graduates have been complaining that they havent been able to find jobs and also our returning soldiers...This isnt right...

There have been many complaints about the quality of the building that was built by these illegals...They illegals said he knew how to do the job...but he lied...(Imagine that..he lied) and they have had nothing but problems with those homes..The victims are the homeowners who are now stuck with 3rd. rate work...Bad stucco...keeps cracking...many many other problems...At least this is what I hear from my construction connections..

Is money always the most important thing? We all want to make money...but it isnt the bottom line..Its also about producing a quality product for your customer..We have really lost it here in America...Some are becoming so greedy it gross to me..they will stab their own people in the back just to make a few extra bucks..when they already make plenty.....pathetic!!!!

Its ALL our duty to try to due something...too much apathy here in America...We reaped what we sowed....we must be more involved in our government...they think no ones watching...so they just did whatever they wanted...Maybe things will be different after this terrible lesson we are all suffering thru....All this corruption has been going on for decades..It didnt just start...
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 87
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Posted: 12/9/2008 9:23:17 PM

America found the perfect solution to all immigration run the country into the ground with a huge debt


And how much of that is actually due to illegal immigration in the first place? More than any politician or pro-amnesty proponent will ever admit.


If we just start drying up the jobs....they will go home...at no cost to us...


Many will, some will obtain illegal SSN's as they already do and live off our taxes. Many will join gangs and rob and kill citizens. They need ushering.


People from backwards countries don't move here and just become instantly civilized


Oh, of course they do!! Don't be ridiculous!! They are all model citizens! We should be thankful they deem us worthy to grace us with their presence. Oops, there's that damn sarcasm that gets me in so much trouble again.
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 89
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Posted: 12/10/2008 12:29:05 AM

No let's say someone is driving in that neighborhood over 60 miles per hour and potentially can hit someone, I bet he will be reported by neighbors, bcs the law that you can't drive that fast in neighborhood is a good one.


Unless they think it's an illegal driving, then they wouldn't report him because he might get deported, according to your analogy. I think you have that aspect of it wrong. People don't report illegals because they figure it's a waste of time. Not because they think the law is bad or good. If I have drug dealers living next door to me, I would report them, not because I think the law against dealing drugs is bad or good, but for the safety of my family. And so would many others because drug dealing often leads to theft, violence, and in some cases murder. The problem with not reporting the illegals is way too many people see it as a victimless crime. They don't see the resources used up, they don't see the money diverted out of our economy, they don't see any of the aftermath because the liberal media covers it up. They don't report that Jose Gonzales the illegal alien was caught on his fifth DUI, just that Jose Gonzales was--they leave any notion that anyone who commits a crime is an illegal out to purposely not pinpoint there is a rampant problem with alien criminal activity--that would be profiling and that is just wrong!! They aren't illegals, they are migrant workers, they don't get welfare because they don't have SSNs, they don't go to hospitals and get free healthcare, they don't send their kids to school because they can't without an SSN, they don't send their pregnant women to the country to have babies for free that will be deemed American citizens at birth, they don't join gangs and perpitrate crimes against our citizens, the work they do is beneath our legal citizens and they won't do it.......And it goes on and on and on. All of those lies have proven wrong and until that way of thinking is rectified by the majority, including those who don't see them day after day (unless they are using them for cheap labor), until people begin emailing and calling their representatives in droves, things will never change.



America let's first solve its own problem then solve the others.


And this is one of the problems that needs to be solved. And it just might help with
some of the others. I think it's worth a shot.
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