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 FrankNStein902
Joined: 12/26/2009
Msg: 71
Why religious way of life excluded in Hollywood's America?Page 4 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
It becomes a problem when you claim that "of course" religion is fable and its deemed that this is somehow not imposing your non belief onto me...

It does not matter what is real or not.

What matters is, people telling other people what or what they should or should not do, which includes but not limited to dictating what Hollywood should create.

I could not care less what people think or do, until they start telling others, then I have an issue with it.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 72
Why religious way of life excluded in Hollywood's America?
Posted: 5/6/2010 5:09:48 PM

It only becomes a problem when some people feel that they have the right & or duty to impose their faith on others.


It becomes a problem when you claim that "of course" religion is fable and its deemed that this is somehow not imposing your non belief onto me. What hypocrisy this is


So, if you happen to say to me "I believe in God", that's OK and it isn't pushing your beliefs on me; but if I say "I'm an atheist & think God is a fable/myth" that's pushing my beliefs on you ??

Stating I'm an atheist & view religons as fables or myths is stating my belief, which I am entitled to, it isn't imposing my belief on you. I suppose you'd prefer that we atheists just keep our mouths shut & don't offend the sensibilities of those with faith? It don't work that way, I'm as entitled to my belief & making my belief known as anyone of faith.

If we did happen to meet in person & you were to say to me "I'm a Christian, what's your faith?" I'd merely reply that I'm an atheist. That's all that needs to be said; but at that point if you then start trying to "help me see the error of my ways & attempt to save my soul" it's then I will get my bristles up & start calling your religious faith a fable.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 73
Why religious way of life excluded in Hollywood's America?
Posted: 5/7/2010 12:53:41 AM


It becomes a problem when you claim that "of course" religion is fable and its deemed that this is somehow not imposing your non belief onto me. What hypocrisy this is --


Actually, you'll never believe me agreeing with you but you have a point here. While "imposing" non-belief isn't the choice of words I would make, the sentiment is the same...the seeming double standard of exclusivity of truth.

In fact, you are well within your rights, in this particular forum, to point out any insistence upon the materialistic worldview as the single exclusive truth without stating as a caveat that it is opinion as a violation of the letter and spirit of the rules of "Preaching" as outlined in the rules for the religion forum...that is if and only if we are not talking about matters of natural law or historic fact.

FYI/FAQ - Religion/Supernatural Forum

http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts7666528.aspx

If we are talking about matters that pertain to faith in or belief in God and non-physical things that cannot be observed or tested, then they have to state opinion based on it and can neither prove nor disprove its existence using reason.

By that same token, they are well within their rights to state certain things with factual certainty.

For example:

God does not spin the earth around the sun. The force of gravity does that in accordance with the laws of motion. One may believe that God or gods do that or trigger natural forces to do that. A scientific/naturalistic viewpoint cannot say with utter certainty they do not, but they do not have to as the burden of proof always falls on the person making a claim. And when a perfectly good and easily testable naturalistic explanation exists, there is no need to posit a supernatural one.
A materialist cannot deny that religion can and does make positive change in peoples lives, social groups, family bonds, spiritual consciousness and psychology (for good or bad). And in fact they will be quick to note both good and bad changes.

So if you think you have a legitimate case in a current thread, report it. The mods will sort it out according to the exact letter of the law. But they don't tolerate the kind of protest posts you have made suggesting biased rulings and may tend not to take you seriously...that might have been a bad move on your part? But if you have a legit beef they will take it seriously...

Just sayin
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 74
Why religious way of life excluded in Hollywood's America?
Posted: 5/7/2010 9:56:06 AM

It becomes a problem when you claim that "of course" religion is fable and its deemed that this is somehow not imposing your non belief onto me. What hypocrisy this is --

Actually, you'll never believe me agreeing with you but you have a point here. While "imposing" non-belief isn't the choice of words I would make, the sentiment is the same...the seeming double standard of exclusivity of truth.


Still, I don't see how merely stating my belief that religion is a fable/myth is "imposing" my views on anyone, anymore than someone saying they're Christian (or Wiccan, Buddhist, Muslim etc) is imposing their belief on me.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 75
Why religious way of life excluded in Hollywood's America?
Posted: 5/7/2010 12:57:22 PM
You can see the language as applied in the rules. It uses reason most effectively to deal with things provable and non-provable so that in the context of a religious discussion you MAY say "it is my opinion that based on available knowledge, religious beliefs are fables" and that this is not an imposition of non-belief.

But coming into the Religion/Supernatural forum and swinging that around repeatedly could be, in effect, just as much a case of preaching and working the floor as any preacher in the science forums...it all depends on the context. And anti-theistic trolling in here could be just as easily moderated if it is out of place in a given thread topic. That's why there is a specific forum for these types of discussions.

One is welcome to take up a contrary position but it has to be done in a manner that has a certain amount of dialectical decorum. Usually both sides forget this and the moderator has to clean up the resulting mess and or burn damage from the flame war.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 76
Why religious way of life excluded in Hollywood's America?
Posted: 5/7/2010 11:31:08 PM
[quoteBut coming into the Religion/Supernatural forum and swinging that around repeatedly could be, in effect, just as much a case of preaching and working the floor as any preacher in the science forums

Possibly. So tell you what, you get all those with religious faiths to stay out of the science threads about evolution & I'll stay out of the religion threads ( unless the thread topic is atheism or bringing religion to schools).
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 77
Why religious way of life excluded in Hollywood's America?
Posted: 5/8/2010 10:25:21 AM
Hey you post where you like, them's the rules...

But if you do so in context, and according to the rules of the forums, everyone has to play nice and put on their "suck it up, princess" hats and deal with it. Failing that, there is the report forum and the mods can deal with it.

The rules of basic logic and reasoned discourse are available for all who chose to use them and the standards of burden of proof are there for anyone making any kind of claim so I don't think you have to worry about it If someone walks into a science/philosophy forum and makes a claim that is clearly based on an element of religious faith and is unprovable, you can roast them alive for it. If they persist in their nuisance posting of their "beliefs" despite having been repeatedly proven wrong, then they are just trolling and can be reported and removed and there is not a thing they can do about it.

That's not censorship, that's being clued in that you're out of order and not ready to sit and talk at the big people's table because you simply don't know how to string thoughts together.

By the same token, if you come into the Religion/Supernatural forum and continuously insist on bashing anti-theism over the heads of religious belief in threads where it is not in context, and there are several on display on the first page, you could be equally viewed as trolling or preaching. See the paragraph above. There is a way to get one's viewpoint across without being deliberately antagonistic and paternalistic.

Now I understand the chagrin when someone, clearly ignorant of basic science, uses "Goddidit" as their reasoning. Carl Sagan actually laid the blame for that not at the feet of the religious however but at science educators for not popularizing nor educating science well enough. This has been repeated by people like Ken Miller, expert witness for Kitzmiller vs. Dover and expert in evolutionary biology. My good friend, a Lutheran educator feels the same way and believes that one need not discard science to have a religious belief and that the two sides of life are mutually exclusive.

So I can't get anyone to stay out of anywhere... you have a problem with a post, you know where the Report forum is.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 78
Why religious way of life excluded in Hollywood's America?
Posted: 5/8/2010 3:44:34 PM

you have a problem with a post, you know where the Report forum is.


No, the problem was calling "exposure" to another's view "imposing" another's view.

If I should happen to see a billboard or a banner on the side of a bus or bus shelter praising God, I'm not having that view imposed on me.
 forumschick
Joined: 1/15/2008
Msg: 79
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Why religious way of life excluded in Hollywood's America?
Posted: 5/11/2010 8:37:05 AM
Southernlass:

Spoken like a true Christian!

Now, let's ask again: Do you think that Hollywood reflects the true state of Humanity?

You are not acting any different than anyone else here, so explain to the Non Christian community, what is the difference between you and them? Better yet, why should they want "your God"?

On their defense, the majority of us Christians seem to want to make our “Truth” theirs, a lot more than the other way around, and I know that is not what Christ stands for.
No human being can change people’s beliefs period. It is Him who will actually do the miracle…

Give it up kid; learn to speak with the same respect to others as you seem to be demanding…

Our truth, reality, facts, etc., whatever you choose to call it, is nothing more than perception, an illusion if you will. You can't prove your truth to anyone else, give it up. Whichever side you are on, remember that we all are simply stating opinions; from what facts we are basing the same? Well, that is a whole other thread...
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 80
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Why religious way of life excluded in Hollywood's America?
Posted: 5/11/2010 5:10:39 PM
RE Msg: 78 by susan_cd:
If we did happen to meet in person & you were to say to me "I'm a Christian, what's your faith?" I'd merely reply that I'm an atheist. That's all that needs to be said; but at that point if you then start trying to "help me see the error of my ways & attempt to save my soul" it's then I will get my bristles up & start calling your religious faith a fable.
That is reasonable. You are not "upping the ante". You are meeting like with like.

RE Msg: 80 by susan_cd:
Still, I don't see how merely stating my belief that religion is a fable/myth is "imposing" my views on anyone, anymore than someone saying they're Christian (or Wiccan, Buddhist, Muslim etc) is imposing their belief on me.
This contradicts your previous statement in Msg 78. In Msg 78, you say that if someone simply said they are a Xian, then you'd reply that you're an atheist, and leave it at that. In Msg 80, you say that if someone simply said they are a Xian, then you'd reply that you believe their beliefs are a fable/myth. You're "upping the ante".

Now, I can agree that if a LOT of people have tried to "help you see the error of your ways & attempt to save your soul", that might be annoying. But if you ever reach the point at which you try to act as if people are about to "help you see the error of your ways & attempt to save your soul", before they've made any attempt to do so, you are getting the first punch in, before anyone has even raised their fists.

What would happen if every time you walked down the road and came towards someone coming from the other direction, you punched someone, when they've never so much as raised their fists as you? That's right. They'd beat you up. You'd get punched every time you approached another person. THEN, you'd be entitled to say that everyone hits you. But every one of your friends would point out that you started on them first. You MADE them hit you, when any normal person would NOT lay a punch, and would rarely get hit in such a situation, if ever. You'd be paranoid, and you'd be causing your own problem. Any decent friend would just tell you to STOP hitting others first, because then you would find you would very rarely get hit, if ever, and you could live a peaceful life.

The same is true here. If you start assuming that just because someone says they are a Xian, or a Buddhist, or a Muslim, or a Jew, or anything else, that they're trying to push their beliefs on you, and that on that basis, you think it's OK to force your beliefs on them, before they've done any such thing, then you're inviting people to insult you, and to push their beliefs on you, and any decent friend of yours would tell you that what is happening to you is almost always your doing, because YOU caused it to happen, and not anyone else. Any decent friend of yours would tell you to stop doing it, because if you did, you would get that kind of treatment rarely, if ever.

If you think you're alone in acting this way, think again. I used to do this sort of thing with everyone, about all sorts of things (not religion though), till people pointed out to me I was causing my own problems. Because they were so adamant that I should try it, I tried it, and people stopped arguing with me. It's really amazing just how little people argue with me these days, now that I've just done this very small thing. FYI, I see a lot of other people still doing it, and it gets them the same results as it used to get me, lots of people arguing with them, who would normally be quite civil and pleasant to them.

You choose how to live your life. Humanity will respond according to the laws of psychology.
 Vancer
Joined: 10/29/2006
Msg: 81
Why religious way of life excluded in Hollywood's America?
Posted: 5/11/2010 5:48:30 PM
Everyone can blame me if they wish.
My last message seems to have backfired royally.
I thought the topic was getting off-track, and just wanted to get it out of the way that writers do often use religion for inspiration in movie scripts, but the OP was more wondering why an everyday Christian way of life was rarely seen in Hollywood's offerings.

EDIT: Please be patient with my massive edit streak. I really need to read what I write before I post. Arrrrgh.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 82
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Why religious way of life excluded in Hollywood's America?
Posted: 5/11/2010 6:56:07 PM
RE Msg: 87 by Vancer:
Everyone can blame me if they wish.
My last message seems to have backfired royally.
I thought the topic was getting off-track, and just wanted to get it out of the way that writers do often use religion for inspiration in movie scripts, but the OP was more wondering why an everyday Christian way of life was rarely seen in Hollywood's offerings.
You mean this?
There really is no question as to whether or not movie writers use the bible for inspiration. The Matrix trilogy, for example, was a massive metaphor of Christ's journey to bring salvation to mankind.
To be honest, I can see your perspective. The Matrix trilogy carries a strong saviour ideology. But so do most people and most ideologies, religious and secular.

I thought the first film, The Matrix, was talking a lot about individuals opposing corporate America. Remember when Morpheus told Neo that everyone in the Matrix was just being lied to, so they could be used as a human battery? That sounded suspiciously like Tyler Durden's speech in Fight Club, when he said that corporate America wanted everyone to be their debt slaves. Mind you, Karl Marx said much the same thing about capitalism in general.

Remember when Morpheus introduced Neo to the Agents, and said "if you're not one of us, you're one of them"? Did you notice how the Agents dressed in black suits with dark glasses? That's exactly the way the FBI are portrayed in many films. It gave me the distinct impression that the movie was suggesting that terrorism against the injustices of the corporations is a good thing, and that Tyler Durden was right to blow up those corporate headquarters.

Also, in The Matrix Revolutions, when Neo was blinded by a Smith, and then killed all the Smiths, and killed himself in the process, to save the humans from destruction, it was a lot like when Samson was blinded by the Philistines, but then brought down the house, killing thousands of Philistines, and himself in the process, which led to the Children of Israel becoming free from the rule of the Philistines. So it might have been inspired by a Biblical story, but not necessarily Jesus. Mind you, I seem to recall that Paul Muad'dib, the Messiah of Dune, was blinded as well. So maybe it was inspired by the Dune novels of Frank Herbert.

All in all, the Matrix is full of hints and references to lots of stories. It might have been done in that way deliberately, for all I know, so that everyone could get their own bit of enjoyment from it, and that way, it could appeal to as many people as possible.

However, the trouble with the Jesus metaphor, is that there is a popular meme going around, that Jesus' story was copied from other sources. True or false, it's still such a popular meme, that every time you mention that words "Jesus" and "metaphor" in the same sentence, it triggers off the association to the meme in people's minds, and people just trotting it out like a conditioned response, with no real analysis of whether or not their response follows from their trigger, or not. That's because it's a conditioned response.

You can always tell a conditioned response from an authentic response. Teachers do it all the time, to tell when their students are listening. Teachers tell their students something, then listen carefully to their response. Then they later on say almost exactly the same statements, using the same words, in the same order, but change one or two words, that will completely change the meaning of the sentence. If the student picks up on it, then the student was listening. If the student trots out the same response as before, then he's just listening to the key words in the statements, but not really trying to understand what was said. If the student repeats the same response verbatim, then he's just answering a pat answer to the key words in the statements. He's not trying to understand what was said, and his response was quoted, not understood, usually because he read it somewhere in a book, and thought it would sound impressive to the teacher. Many teachers will tell you they have at least one student in every class that thinks he can coast by simply picking a few choice quotes from a book written by an author that the teacher respects. They really slam those students, hard.

The same is true in real life.
 Vancer
Joined: 10/29/2006
Msg: 83
Why religious way of life excluded in Hollywood's America?
Posted: 5/11/2010 8:42:47 PM
I have no idea if my post was coming across as some kind of imposition. I just happened to notice references to a particular religion in the Matrix. I'm not religious, so if I didn't pick up on other religious references within that movie, people will have to forgive me.

I just felt that a little proof was needed that there are popular movies which have been inspired by religious stories. That way it wasn't in question here. Then we could get back to discussing OP.
 worldtraveller74
Joined: 5/10/2011
Msg: 84
Why religious way of life excluded in Hollywood's America?
Posted: 7/9/2011 12:42:26 PM
Because a "religious way of life" is laughable?
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 85
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Why religious way of life excluded in Hollywood's America?
Posted: 7/10/2011 1:11:17 PM
oh dear, a hater has discovered the religion threads. Unfortunately, it's not a THOUGHTFUL hater.

Anything new and useful to offer?
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