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 GeneralizingNow
Joined: 10/10/2007
Msg: 107
Cave man days, bring'em backPage 2 of 13    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13)
I think your observations are wrong.

While a confident man is attractive (given that the opposite is being a milquetoast), I do not believe "many women if not most women" would want a man to make life decisions for her without asking what she thinks. This shows a lack of respect for her and her decision making.

I take it you have never been married? Have you met any women? How did that "making decisions without asking what she thinks" thing work for you?
 Merrylass
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 109
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Cave man days, bring'em back
Posted: 6/27/2008 1:45:03 PM

And when that happens, she naturally seeks your leadership and in doing such fulfills her need to be with a strong man.

Horsefeathers. I'm a capable, very intelligent woman who fends for herself perfectly fine without needing 'leadership', thanks. What I would like is someone who knows at least as much as I do about how the world works. I couldn't believe I had to instruct my 50+-year-old neighbour about how to negotiate with tradesmen.

The shocking thing about this thread is that hoary old ideas are not restricted to hoary old guys. One would have hoped that modernity might have permeated the under-40 minds but apparently not so.
 WeAre1
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 110
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Cave man days, bring'em back
Posted: 6/27/2008 2:05:09 PM
smuggler, you interpret the OP as

Barring the idea of "clubbing" and "cavemen" .... in a very light hearted view of the situation, the OP may be scratching the surface of a much bigger problem that seems to have been generated.
Women talk about wanting that nice, considerate, gentlemanly type of guy.... Yet they are drawn to that flash in the pan bad boy type. Contridiction in realities??? There is something to be said about the Aggressive, out of control, masculine man, that seems to draw women in. Hence the saying, "Nice guys finish last"......
.....But in a world where boys are raised by women, and end up having no idea of what it is to be a man... The OP may be on to something, more than some would like to admit...."

A few thoughts- to me 'the bad boy' is not an aggressive, controlling man - it is a man who is confident and in control of himself, but still is aware of their attraction to females in a very powerful, but subtle way - not the puppy dog wanting constant attention.
Anyway, that's my idea of a bad boy. Any man or boy who really has aggressive and controlling tendencies is the least attractive.....just like women who are aggressive and controlling are the least attractive.
I agree all genders are struggling with balancing how male and how female each is - with most extremes from either sex a problem.....for it almost seems like both genders have to be confident and in control, along with being true ladies and gentleman also.....or that's how it appears to me.
Strongly secure and lovingly compassionate also....that's my ideal man anyway.... if cavemen were like that, then, yes please....
 Pandy
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 112
Cave man days, bring'em back
Posted: 6/27/2008 4:06:15 PM
confidance? Hell yeah... that's hot.
Aggression? Not so much.

Very few women will remain satisfied with a doormat for very long, but I don't think many of us are ready for knuckle-dragging troglodytes, either.
 NiceOnPurpose
Joined: 12/17/2007
Msg: 116
Cave man days, bring'em back
Posted: 6/27/2008 7:41:03 PM
I want to find me a caveman and dress him up in a suit! LOL. Seriously, I don't want to be clubbed over the head and I really don't need to be controlled...but I do like manly men and manly men are kinda bossy. So long as it never degenerates into stupidity or violence then I'm Ok with a bit of that....Doesn't mean it will work on me, but I love a man that has the balls to try. Maybe alpha-male is a better term.
 Cynderella
Joined: 3/8/2007
Msg: 119
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Cave man days, bring'em back
Posted: 6/28/2008 8:31:14 AM

I didn't say women want to be controlled, I said they wanted to controlled in a limited way


I believe we all do it's human nature...some just can't admit to it!
 Cynderella
Joined: 3/8/2007
Msg: 123
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Cave man days, bring'em back
Posted: 6/28/2008 8:41:33 AM

At what point does a guy go from being the "real man" that so many of you advertise you are looking for, to being controlling?


A real man compromises when is the turning point...when one takes control where control is not need...open communication.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 125
Cave man days, bring'em back
Posted: 6/28/2008 8:49:38 AM

Back in the cave man days a man clubbed a girl over the head, took her to his cave and the rest ws history.


Prove this. Please, give me pictures or a video of a Cro Magnon or early Homo Sapien Sapien man clubbing a woman and dragging her back to the cave. Show me a cave painting illustrating this.

There is absolutely nothing that substantiates that in the "cave people" days that men treated women brutally. In fact, logically speaking, it would have been a disadvantage for them to do so. If you examine ancient societies such as Egypt and Sumeria, women often had a much higher status than they did in later societies such as Greek and Rome. Egypt was matrilineal, suggesting that at one time, the culture could have been matriarchal or at least matrifocal. Some scholars such as Marija Gimbutas claim that Bronze Age cultures were all matriarchal. That might be carrying it a bit far, but there is no way to prove or disprove the theory.


It's been my experience that many women if not most women like an assertive, aggressive man.


That's your problem--you are relying on your experience. You prefer submissive women and those are the ones whom you seek out. Not all women are the same.


But I do believe women want to be somewhat controlled in a limited way.


I believe that there are invisible pink unicorns on the moon. Your statement is so filled with caveats that it contradicts itself.

One of the constant complaints of SOME men in these forums is that women say we don't "need" men. Your biased, antiquated way of thinking is why SOME women say this. A man who thinks that he has the right to dominate women just because he is a man AND that MOST women will acquiesce, has not met many women.

Or maybe only we old broads are the only ones who feel this way. No, wait, I teach college--from what my female students have said, the majority of them don't feel this way.
 blonde chickie
Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 126
Cave man days, bring'em back
Posted: 6/28/2008 8:49:49 AM
Yeah right, a clubbing on my noggin and you'll be kicked in the nuts dude
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 127
Cave man days, bring'em back
Posted: 6/28/2008 8:51:09 AM
One more thing: I like a man who can control HIMSELF and take care of HIS situations.

If I want help with mine, I'll ask.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 129
Cave man days, bring'em back
Posted: 6/28/2008 9:06:19 AM

YES, women do liked to be controlled in many ways, mostly good ways, and with the right man the boundries can be pushed.


It never ceases to amaze me that a man feels that he can tell me, a woman, what I like and need.

Women can't even agree on everything that we like; we are all individuals. Yet, here is a man who says, without reservation, that he knows what women like.

Amazing.


I didn't say women want to be controlled, I sais they wanted to controlled in a limited way.


Forgive me, I just can't fathom the difference--and who decides what the control should be and when/how it is exerted.

Women are not girls; we do not need a daddy to tell us how, what, and why.
 NiceOnPurpose
Joined: 12/17/2007
Msg: 134
Cave man days, bring'em back
Posted: 6/28/2008 10:13:07 AM
Ladies...Ladies...Quit bashing the OP with the proverbial club. I think he is actually speaking pretty coherently, if y'all would just actually read what he wrote. He's right too. I want a man like that ...all joking around aside. I won't settle for less. I know I am not the only female like this out here. Maybe I'm among the few that are honest enough to admit it though.

He's not suggesting living two lives instead of the one that God gave him. He's talking about truth and not the PC garbage popular media keeps putting out. I don't want to mow my own lawn. I don't want to open my own doors and if a man loves me so well that he knows exactly what to order for my dinner then I am pleased to let him do it.

The OP isn't talking about a first date here, he's talking about a relationship wherein he knows the woman in question well and has a vested interest in her well being.

The truth is we women can not get away from the facts that we are more emotionally affected than men are and that men tend to be more logical and calmer in certain situations. Yes, there are exceptions and degrees, but by and large those are the scientific facts and they are backed up with studies that even include brain scans. We are not the same and we are not equal anymore than apples and oranges can be considered equal.

In a relationship, the parties should compliment each other not compete with each other. Also a relationship is an organization just like any other. Too many chefs will spoil the soup.

As for:


At what point does a guy go from being the "real man" that so many of you advertise you are looking for, to being controlling? What's the difference in your eyes?


A real man jumps the line to being controlling when selfishness becomes involved in the equation. When the directives and decisions he is making are neither for the best interest of the relationship as a whole or his significant other. When he forgets his role is to be the leader and protector he may degenerate into being controlling.

Just my 2 dollars (inflation you know).

Still waiting to get clubbed....::::sigh::::
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 135
Cave man days, bring'em back
Posted: 6/28/2008 10:36:55 AM

I think he is actually speaking pretty coherently, if y'all would just actually read what he wrote. He's right too.


You are painting a picture in the same wide and erroneous strokes as is the OP. He is not right about EVERY woman; he is right about SOME women. You exemplify the type of woman of which he speaks, but neither he nor you speak for me or ALL women.


I want a man like that ..


Because YOU want a man like that doesn't mean that all or even most women want a man like that.


The truth is we women can not get away from the facts that we are more emotionally affected than men are and that men tend to be more logical and calmer in certain situations. Yes, there are exceptions and degrees, but by and large those are the scientific facts and they are backed up with studies that even include brain scans. We are not the same and we are not equal anymore than apples and oranges can be considered equal.


Please, give me the information as to where I can go and validate your claims that men are always more logical and calmer in certain situations. Ever been in an ER room? The female nurses are as calm as the males. The stereotype of the female falling apart at the sight of blood, guts, spiders and snakes is a culturally held view that is not borne out.

You are mixing your metaphors--apples and oranges ARE equal in their own ways. They are both fruit, they are both best when sweet and a bit tart. They are different colors and have different textures, but that doesn't mean that the orange should be able to dominate the apple because it is orange. It doesn't mean that the apple should tell the orange what to do because it comes in colors from red to yellow.


In a relationship, the parties should compliment each other not compete with each other. Also a relationship is an organization just like any other. Too many chefs will spoil the soup.


"Complement" not "compliment." The use of the second word totally changes the context of the sentence.

As far as the soup analogy (another tired cliche): I have watched my son, who cooks for a living, in the kitchen preparing a dish. His GF, meanwhile, is also in the kitchen, preparing another dish. They are not competing; he is not telling her to what to do. They move as a team: sometimes, he makes the main dish and she prepares the side dish; other times, the roles are reversed. At times, he makes the whole dinner; at times, she does.

I am 55 years old. I have a wealth of life's experience behind me. I have made it on my own for years; I have made the decisions about where I work, where I live, and how to both save and spend the money that I make. Why do I need a man to make my decisions for me?

I don't.

But at the same time, I want to share my life with a man, and when I do, there will be time when I ask his advice and he will ask mine. Living with someone is a dance of compromise. If some women are so weak that they fear responsibility and want/need a man to tell them what to do and take control of situations, so be it.

BUT STOP SAYING THAT'S WHAT ALL WOMEN WANT OR NEED.
 bcsofnc57
Joined: 11/20/2007
Msg: 136
Cave man days, bring'em back
Posted: 6/28/2008 11:28:57 AM

Many of you will read this and deny you like being controlled in any way, form or fashion and you'll do so because you don't want anybody to know but whenyou're with your man I am positive you'll give up controll over lots of issues/thing/situations, again not in a bad or demeaning way.

You are 100% wrong(at least about me). I am not willing to give up any control to any man at any time about anything. Why would I? Just because he is male and I am female? I don't think so!!! Let him give up some control to me over lots of issues/things/situation but not in a bad or demeaning way. I am not serious, but the sick thing is you are. People aren't meant to control each other.




Because I know there a many women out there who like giving up controll to their man, I'm saying there aren't many men out willing to take that controll, most do what is considered to be the "right" thing. I can hardly wait to the responses to this. It is possible to be controlled and repected at the same time!!


Your right there are women out there that are so desperate to have a man in their life, they will let that man control them.

I would not have any respect for myself if I let anyone control me, and I am the only person that I have to live with.
 NiceOnPurpose
Joined: 12/17/2007
Msg: 138
Cave man days, bring'em back
Posted: 6/28/2008 12:23:57 PM
I never said all women, I said SOME women appreciate a caveman type. I used myself as an example. I apologize for my spelling error. I did mean complement. I wasn't aware I was being graded on spelling over content. Obviously no one is grading the women against the caveman concept on reading comprehension. But I digress.

I do manage well on my own. I have a fairly well paying professional job in AR/AP for a major hotel. I didn't sleep my way to that position. I went to school and I do the work, there are no plans for me to stop working. I am not a leech. I am not by any means or stretch of the imagination helpless either. I've raised 2 sons and a daughter on my own. I live by myself and manage to do everything that needs doing. I have been taking care of myself and my own for years. I actually intimidate a lot of men with my sheer capabilities (yeah, I laughed too when I was told that, at least the first time). They don't think I need them. (Evidently, SOME men like to be needed) I want one though.

I truly believe that men and women are entirely different mindsets. If we weren't so different than why are so many of us alone at 40 and 50. I do have scientific evidence that I base it on. I don't have the time or the inclination to scan page by page the numerous books I have on this very subject into the computer and I doubt that you intend to read it. There is somewhat of a cliffs notes version to be found here: http://healthfully.org/medicalscience/id8.html. You could just google it yourself though. Try the keywords "Scientific evidence gender differences in the brain" . My attempt at that brought up over 2 million pages. That should keep you busy for a while.

Apples and Oranges are both fruit. Men and Women are both females. When you break an apple or an orange down to its basic chemical composition, they are really not much alike, but they sure taste good together.

Suddenly I have a strange craving for fruit salad.

Viva La Difference!
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 139
Cave man days, bring'em back
Posted: 6/28/2008 12:34:37 PM

Maybe I'm among the few that are honest enough to admit it though.


When you wrote that, you didn't insinuate, you flatly stated that the rest of we women are lying when we say that we don't want a man to control us.


I never said all women, I said SOME women appreciate a caveman type.


I reread your other post; indeed, you did NOT state SOME women. I couldn't find anyplace where you indicated SOME women like to be clubbed.

I will peruse your scientific evidence, but you still used broad general statement and stereotypes that painted all women--and men--in the same colors.


Men and Women are both females.


Say what?
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 140
Cave man days, bring'em back
Posted: 6/28/2008 12:43:33 PM
I read the article. It spoke of differences in the brain waves of males and females and this knowledge can benefit how diseases such as Alzheimer's might be treated; at no point did it discuss how those brain waves make men want to club women and women want to be clubbed.

There are difference between men and women; for instances, the theory of right brain/left brain thinkers, but one must be VERY careful of confusing biological essence with social constructivism.

The times, they are a' changing.
 NiceOnPurpose
Joined: 12/17/2007
Msg: 141
Cave man days, bring'em back
Posted: 6/28/2008 12:52:43 PM
Geez...

You obviously did NOT read my first post. Figures. I did error on my statement about Men and Women being both females...I meant human. I was thinking SOME females want men to be females but chose not to write that.

My facts are good. My typing today not so hot, but then it is 90 degrees in the shade right now and I am exhausted for personal reasons and should probably get some rest before I try to defend my viewpoints. Obviously nitpicking is the hobby of some of the posters. MOST people have enough intelligence to know what that statement was intended to be and the tact and kindness to go without nitpicking at it.

Years managing a law office prior to my current position did teach me a thing or two about arguments. Its always the loser who picks the insignificant details to whine about over the larger issues.

I remember why I switched careers now.
 NiceOnPurpose
Joined: 12/17/2007
Msg: 142
Cave man days, bring'em back
Posted: 6/28/2008 12:58:24 PM
Escuse me, I didn't say we were wired to be clubber and clubbee. The brain differences I noted were that women were (trying to figure out a way to simplify this for the 2nd grade readers out there)....... more emotionally in-tune (hopefully that is not too many syllables) and that men were more logical-thinking. The only comments I've made about clubbing were in jest (which is making a humorous statement) and self effacing (directed at myself) as well.

I'm glad you don't like the *caveman types*. More men for me to choose from then.
 jadegreen
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 145
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History
Cave man days, bring'em back
Posted: 6/28/2008 1:08:40 PM
This is a complicated subject and has complex issues. This discussion should not be simplified and to truly cover this subject well to make others understand would take pages of typing...

I grew up in a home where the man wore the pants. I like a man to be the leader and when men and women have true respect for each other the man can lead and the lady will respect his leadership. I can't be with a "softee" man...sorry just can't...come from a long line of truly tough family and just don't feel comfortable with that. If a man is too nice...the relationship just isn't for me, b/c I can be aggressive too...I can't help it...I just come from a lineage of strong people.

Okay, as far as caveman attitude. I think you are just expressing yourself here. In caveman days the man was the stronger and went out to kill the animals to survive. He was just stronger. Don't really think ya need to drag them by the hair of the head to the bedroom. I will agree some people can be spoiled and manipulative and you have to be aggressive with them to assert fairness. If you are always being assertive to get fairness that isn't good. You may be exhausting yourself with a person that will never change. However to prove you will not tolerate unfairness sometimes you have to be aggressive b/c these types of personalities thrive on softees. They like the unaggressive types. If they submit to your assertiveness you have to anaylsis whether it is b/c they see why you insist or they are in fear of you. If they fear you and that is the only reason they are with you. That kind of assertiveness is not good...

Okay I've heard the word controlling here, and that is a word way over used by people that do not understand aggressive personalities. Being controlled is a real issue, but there is a difference between insisting aggressively on doing something or wanting something b/c you know you deserve it or it is the best way. If someone aggressively wants you to do something a certain way for purely selfish reasons and b/c they know they can overpower you to make u do it that is being "controlling"...however as I stated above if they are aggressive with you b/c they know they deserve what it is they insist on or they know "their way " is the best way that is different from controlling and if you don' t agree you should walk away...

Okay, I'm sure I have everyone thoroughly confused by now...this is a difficult subject to grasp.
 NiceOnPurpose
Joined: 12/17/2007
Msg: 146
Cave man days, bring'em back
Posted: 6/28/2008 1:20:06 PM
Jadegreen you have done your best to explain it... SOME of us get it. I'm happy to not be alone. SOMEtimes SOME strong women like men who are stronger than they are. Strength and leadership doesn't equal abuse. I was beginning to think no other like-thinking women were going to speak up.

Prepare to defend yourself against the partial-quoters and spelling police now.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 148
Cave man days, bring'em back
Posted: 6/28/2008 1:34:36 PM

Its always the loser who picks the insignificant details to whine about over the larger issues.


I was not aware that in POF forums that there were winners and losers.


Obviously nitpicking is the hobby of some of the posters. MOST people have enough intelligence to know what that statement was intended to be and the tact and kindness to go without nitpicking at it.


I teach writing, and I try not to assume that I can read the minds of my students when they write something that is not readily apparent. When I read your statement about men and women being female, I wasn't clear on what you were trying to convey. I COULD have assumed that you mean "human," but maybe you meant we started out as female in the uterus (we do). Perhaps you left out part of the phrase. Who knows? When I don't know, I generally ask.

It was the same with the substitution of "compliment" for "complement." Technically, the sentence was correct, but the context indicated you PROBABLY meant the latter rather than the former.

When I make a syntactical or grammatical error in my writing, I want people to point it out because it could change the meaning of what I am trying to say. But then, I don't have a thin skin. I say, "Oops, I made a mistake" and don't try to justify it, but just correct it.

My most humble apologies if I offended your sensibilities.

And I remember why I became a teacher--so I can help students learn to express themselves clearly and concisely in writing.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 149
Cave man days, bring'em back
Posted: 6/28/2008 1:42:39 PM

Most men don't want someone weaker. I certainly wants someone as strong as me. It may be different from the strength I have but equally strong. MEn and women are equal but have different strength. No one should be weaker just have different strength.


When I have a math question, I ask a math instructor. When the math instructor wants to know about split infinitives, he/she asks me.

Both skills are important, but if the math instructor starts insisting that only math teachers can make decisions for every department, there is trouble brewing. If the English teacher allows the math teacher to lead in a subject about which he/she knows nothing, even more trouble will ensue.
 NiceOnPurpose
Joined: 12/17/2007
Msg: 150
Cave man days, bring'em back
Posted: 6/28/2008 1:52:59 PM
Obviously, writing and spelling are your strengths. Comprehension not so much. The losers I was referring to were in the court room. Even I, as thin skinned as I am, would not call someone I don't know a loser. I maintain that MOST people who read what I wrote and considered the context of which it was written would have no problem discerning what my intent was and would have overlooked minor spelling errors and probably chuckled over the female/human miswording. Unfortunately you seem to be everyone's spelling errors but mine. It seems to me that when you spell check a document, you should do it completely.

Evidently SOMEthing that I've written has offended you so utterly that you are focussing your attention on my personal writing ability rather than the content of my ideas. I am not used to be bashed in the forums. Generally the respect goes both ways. The club I was looking for is ideally attached to the caveman I am looking for, not a metaphor for high-school English class.

I'm entitled to agree with the OP. The forums are not just for opposing opinions.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 151
Cave man days, bring'em back
Posted: 6/28/2008 2:06:07 PM

Evidently SOMEthing that I've written has offended you so utterly that you are focussing your attention on my personal writing ability rather than the content of my ideas. I am not used to be bashed in the forums.


You know, I was going to answer this, and then I realized that I am getting drawn into a pissing contest with you.

I was never offended and I apologized for offending you; I need to remember that not everyone can take criticism. I did not realize that expressing opinions was limited to a few. I need to remember that not everyone can take an apology.

Mea culpa.

But I do need to clarify:


not a metaphor for high-school English class.


I teach college, not high school.
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