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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > WATER has MEMORY ! ! !      Home login  
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 JohnEDeep
Joined: 7/9/2007
Msg: 30
WATER has MEMORY ! ! ! Page 3 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
And perhaps you can stay on topic, and cease this pointless hijacking, please. I responded to the OP's original topic, not the homeopathic tangent currently raging.

Recognize these words?


<div class="quote">Can you prove to me all those things that you believe so firmly are true, without just spewing someone elses ideas?
My point is that we all chose our beliefs.
All beliefs can be proven or discredited.

You choose to believe water has memory for your own reasons. I suspect that you, as a Holistic Therapist, have a vested interest in maintaining and promoting that belief. More power to ya.

I choose not to believe water has memory. I formed my conclusion using the scientific method of experimentation...my own, not some stranger's pretty website pics. Emotto has an agenda. It's a nice agenda, but that doesn't make his conclusions any more real to non-believers.


<div class="quote">plus, you didn't answer the question as to what discernable differences were you measuring as outcome?

Unfortunately, my scanning electron microscope is in the shop, , so I had to rely on a magnifying glass. The visible detail was comparable to Emotto's pics. As I noted before, there were no discernable differences to my eyes. The samples all did a good job cooling my drink down, with no aftertaste.

I'll admit that I didn't believe it would work. Despite my disbelief, I tried it anyways, for my own curiosity. My posting was made for the purpose of topically demonstrating the scientific method...a big point of dispute surrounding the original topic. A quick, cheap experiment, especially when compared to my other experiments involving electrolytic splitting of water molecules into HHO gas. That one blew up in my face, but that's another thread. I'm not a scientist, just the same curious little boy I always have been. Nerd or not, I was the kid with his own lab in the back room. The kid who looked forward to the science fair every year. The kid who just picked up the July issue of Scientific American magazine earlier today. (There's a great article about proteins' role in immunology and cancer suppression you might be interested in.) I'm also the kid that got kicked out of Bible school for asking too many questions. That kid almost pulled the plug @12 years old...before he learned to have faith in himself. 'Nuff said.

Please. I beg you. Put your money where your typing fingers are. Do the experiment, despite your belief that this phenomenon is real. Document the results. Then I'd be delighted to show you mine if you show me yours.

I triple dog dare ya!



I choose not to lick the frozen flagpole to see if my tongue would stick. I believe it would. Now I wonder what frozen spit looks like.
 ahron9985
Joined: 4/19/2008
Msg: 31
WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/18/2008 3:03:40 AM
Ha ha ha, funny....sad...but funny...
 Phoebus2k9
Joined: 3/15/2008
Msg: 32
WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/18/2008 5:49:00 AM
I think its awesome that finally someone got off their lazy a$$ and did their own leg work on something like this. No offence but you really should video record from beginning til end, the yelling and love words you said you were doing. I mean this would be the only way to make people believe more of what your saying. So you have a link with your pictures you took ? Do you have a picture of you in it and your lab so we can see your equipment ?

I myself would love to do this experiment. i have a friend who works in a lab and all they do is work like this. So i will ask see if she would work on this with me. I think more then likely she will, seeing she is more curious then me. Good one thoe. I am quite curious about everything. There are alot of things that make total sense and alot of things that dont make any sense in this world. Sometimes looking to the past will help you notice why they did the things they did back then.

One thing if you have any info on medical doctors in the past, you would know this is all they use to do was natural healing. It wasnt til the Pharma came into the picture and made the Govt regulate the teaching of pushing pills into everything that the natual ways of healing was being pushed out or the GOvt would not fund their medical school

-one last thing, why did they bless the food and why do alot of people who grow plants say they grow better to music or being talked to ? or is this a bunch of Bs that has no study done to make it a well accepted thing ??? I only ask the question cause im curious.

 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 33
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WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/18/2008 6:02:31 AM
One thing if you have any info on medical doctors in the past, you would know this is all they use to do was natural healing. It wasnt til the Pharma came into the picture and made the Govt regulate the teaching of pushing pills into everything that the natual ways of healing was being pushed out or the GOvt would not fund their medical school


http://elane.stanford.edu/wilson/html/chap5/chap5-sect4.html


"No voice of authority seriously questioned either the benefit or the harm to the patient of the commonly employed regime of blood-letting, purging, mercury and opium. This in spite of the fact that there was no scientific evidence of the effectiveness of any of these remedies. "

Yes indeed, it truly was the "Golden Age" for medicine.
 JohnEDeep
Joined: 7/9/2007
Msg: 34
WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/18/2008 10:02:23 AM
Thanks, OPie Phoebus, for appreciating the difference between words and actions. Sadly, our society has a surplus of the former, and a shortage of the latter.

I'm sure that a video of me alternately loving and hating water would make funny Youtube viewing... but that's not gonna happen. I don't desire 15 minutes of fame/shame that badly. The really cool thing about science is that you don't need a fancy diploma or expensive lab equipment to do some good experiments. All you need for this experiment is water, sample cups, freezer, magnifying lense, and the will to actually DO it.

Actions impress me, regardless of the results. Words are cheap, and thus discounted. I don't care if anyone believes my words, but I'd jump for joy if someone else was inspired to take action as well. Your own curiosity is the same as that which inspired Da Vinci, Galileo, Newton, Einstein, and millions of other truth seekers since the dawn of man. Follow that curiosity with actions, and you, too, may take your place alongside the giants of rational thought.

On a side note, Emotto posited that polluted water forms different ice crystals. This IS actually true, and repeatable. Much like water droplets in a cloud, ice crystals are 'seeded' by particulate contaminants. Different contaminants yield different crystals. However, his statement that some crystals appear happy or sad are a classic example of anthropomorphism...the assignation of human traits to inhuman things. A decidedly non-scientific fallacy.

Does a happy snowflake appear sad when turned upside down? Inquiring minds want to know.
 Phoebus2k9
Joined: 3/15/2008
Msg: 35
WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/18/2008 11:37:24 AM
See alot of people sit around on their A$$ and be nothing more then a bunch of repeaters...Mostly everything in life is that either way. We repeat what we been told ...if you repeat it correctly then you get a paper saying your a great repeater. Certified.

So sure even im a repeater but i myself would rather be looking into it myself such as yourself. Your very right does not take much to do it yourself. I even got a few things that im working on now to see how effective it is. I just need to get a few more things in order to correctly work on this project.

BUt all in all i would say do the experiment again but this time clear your mind completely and be in totaly belief of your hate and your Love. Its has to be genuine for it to be comeplete. Your body cannot be fooled
 JohnEDeep
Joined: 7/9/2007
Msg: 36
WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/18/2008 1:45:51 PM

See alot of people sit around on their A$$ and be nothing more then a bunch of repeaters...Mostly everything in life is that either way. We repeat what we been told ...if you repeat it correctly then you get a paper saying your a great repeater. Certified.


Very well said, and I salute you for saying it. That's the underlying reason for my own lack of 'credentials'.

Though Philosophy begat Science, real problems occur when you use one to describe the other. Philosophy is debated by a series of postulated beliefs. The most convincing argument wins...sometimes. Science is debated by beliefs that are backed up with experimental evidence, duplicable for all to see and wonder at.

Whether a water molecule is happy or sad is a philosophical question, impossible to answer definitively. At a quantum level, I do believe that there is an interconnectedness between all points in the universe at a sub-atomic level we can barely conceive. My belief is strenthened by real experimental evidence demonstrating the concept of 'entanglement'. However, I have a real problem with the leap of faith it takes to expand that demonstrated reality into a full-blown universal conciousness. Both Old and New Age practitioners have adopted this serious research as 'proof' of their convictions, but I am, as ever, unconvinced. Bearing this in mind, I did perform the experiment with an open mind, hoping to witness a revelatory result.

'Hope' I have plenty of. 'Faith' remains as elusive as the Higgs Boson...for now.

Fire up the LHC!
 Is too hot
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 37
WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/18/2008 9:57:49 PM

Perhaps you should reread my post.
I did not say that I'm a proponent of vaccinations.
And I did not insinuate that homeopathy doesn't work.

That is not true. Here is what you wrote:

Wow! you are really opposed to homeopathy! So what makes you so sure that it doesn't work?
Are you opposed or for vaccination?
Classical homeopathy is very similar to the concept of vaccinations: poisons diluted to a degree which will create a kind of tolerance (immunity). Of course there is more to it than that. But basically you might want to consider the idea that we are more than a chemical lab. Chemicals, bacteria, viruses... are not the only factors of life; health and disease.
Perhaps you might be interested in looking into the power of prayer/thought/intention...
Everything is a result of thought.


You did not say that you were opposed to vaccination, that much is true. You said that homeopathy works like vaccination and that is certainly not true at all. In the rest of your message, you did indeed try to give credibility to homeopathy. Otherwise, why would you pen such silly things about us not being chemical labs; chemicals et al not being the only disease agents; and the piffle about prayer and thought? Who's being disingenuous here?

I noticed, thanks to another poster, that you are a "holistic healer" so you actually make your living off having people believe that disease is caused by stuff that can't be measured or defined. You have a vested interest in this melange of nonsense, yet you did not reveal such and came accross with the "what's the harm in believing in water memory" question. What's wrong with believing in water memory is that people who don't know science and couldn't care less about studying pathology can put up a shingle and call themselves "holistic healers", "spiritual advisors", "psychic surgeons" etc and prey on people who are either really sick and need to see a real doctor or are seriously deluded. Nice way to make a living, I guess.

Nice dodge about the superiority thing. So, now your a psychiatrist, too? Your powers amaze me. But, try not to dodge an issue. What I believe has nothing to do with this. Address the facts I've put forward instead of painting me out to be some type of snob. Your failure to do so will only strengthen my case.
 Is too hot
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 38
WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/19/2008 8:56:33 PM
Here we go again with the mind games.


I didn't say that I'm opposed to vaccination or homeopathy.

The first part is right. The second part is misleading. You've written a classical defencse of homeopathy. You likenend it to vaccination. That could only come from someone who has no clue as to how vaccination works.


I am a holistic therapist because I have studied many different modalities, and place my emphasis on teaching people about the interrelationship of nutrition, exercise, emotional health...

No doubt an irreplaceable service. Howerver, when you advise these people, you are ambivalent about quackery like homeopathy and that water memory is OK to believe in. Pretty good. Non-commtal, state of the Ark medical advice, no doubt delivered with the disclaimer that it is not medical advice.


I have studied many years at university level anatomy (each and every nerve, muscle, tendon and ligament in the body, I had to memorize), physiology and pathology.

Me too. Most pre-med drop-outs can say that. Could you tell us what your degree is in, who licenses your practice, what board you had to pass and the branch of Health Canada that regulates your practice? I've also studied physics and chemistry at college level and above. You?


I'm just saying in hopes that you may see how judgemental you sound and how possibly it's causing a narrow perspective on life.

You mean after you said that believing in water memory was OK, asking what harm the belief could do, being told that homeopathy depended on this piffle, defending homeopathy and being wrong about vaccination? Well, I clearly missed the mark this time, didn't I?


I said that classical homeopathy is similar to vaccinations in the way I described. I also mentioned that there is more to it than that. I won't bother explaining since I think it is futile with you.

Yes, homeopathy would be just like vaccination as you described it. Too bad your description was wrong and misleading. No need to try to explain it to me. I more likely know more about it than you do. So spare me your sage advice.
 ahron9985
Joined: 4/19/2008
Msg: 39
WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/19/2008 9:24:01 PM
Water Memory is bullshit, homeopathy is bullshit.

Put it this way.

If something is REAL, surly you can design an experiment which REPRODUCABLY proves that it is real. Once that happens, it becomes mainstream science/medicine.

Why do some things not become mainstream science/medicine?? The answer is, because they are bullshit.

Yes I know some things start off as alternative medicine/science, and later become mainstream science (message, acupuncture, and the use of ginger for motion-sickness are all examples)...in fact that's my point!!! Things that actually work will eventually become accepted my mainstream science. If it doesn’t become accepted my mainstream science, there is a fair chance it's bullshit.

Homeopathy is not a mainstream science. It is a bullshit psuodo-science. It does not work in a similar way to vaccination. Anyone who thinks it does simply does not understand vaccination.

It should be illegal for people to preach pseudo-scientific medical advice to non-medically trained members of the public. Lots of you stupid natural so-called “medical professionals” are a danger to the community. Yes, homeopathy is one example of this.
 Is too hot
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 40
WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/28/2008 10:33:04 PM

What is wrong with a little bullshit?


None, really, unless you invest your money in one of these schemes. Then the world isn't so rosy when your dividend is due.
 ahron9985
Joined: 4/19/2008
Msg: 41
WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/29/2008 1:53:07 AM

Just because mainstream whatever accepts something doesn't mean it is more true, ergo valid - just more accepted.


Ummm...no, it doesn't mean it's "more true" but it does mean it's "more likley to be true based on the evidence that exists so far". That's how it becomes the mainstream belife!!


So it can't be proven, so what? There was a time we couldn't prove that the world was round or that gravity held us to the earth - so did gravity not exist before we gave it a name and quantified it?


This “world being flat” thingy is the example everyone always uses. But the thing is, there is only one intelligent way to form your beliefs. You look at the evidence which is available and you find an explanation which best explains that evidence. There was a time in history when the most intelligent thing to believe was that the world was flat. Anyone who existed at that time and believed that the world was round, might have been correct by coincidence, but they where still stupid because it is still stupid to believe something based on no evidence what-so-ever. Later in history, new evidence became available, and it gradually became less and less stupid to believe that the world is round. As this new evidence became available, and science started to realize that the world might in fact be round, it was the bloody church who preached that it was impossible!!! In my opinion, nothing has changed since then! The church still holds back science and prevents the world from knowing as much as it could ha ha ha ha.

Your argument is the argument of a 2 year old (and of the church ha ha). You seem to think that because something can’t be proven wrong, it should be thought of as correct. How ridicules. I can make up some bullshit that you can’t prove wrong. There will be no evidence to suggest that is correct, but if no one can prove it wrong, will you believe it??? Maybe you will ha ha ha!!
 ahron9985
Joined: 4/19/2008
Msg: 42
WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/29/2008 1:57:13 AM

I grew up being told I was basicaly evil aka child abuse and while some ppl at that time thought it was funny and made fun of me in light of it... I did not find it funny…etc



What the hell are you on about?? Ha ha…this is like Chinese whispers. I love how these threads end up being about nothing to do with he original topic lol.
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 43
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WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/29/2008 6:24:03 AM

This “world being flat” thingy is the example everyone always uses.


You are right people use it a lot, but frankly they know not what they do - it is a myth(unless you are talking about pre-bronze age civilization)!

http://www.bede.org.uk/flatearth.htm
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 44
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WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/29/2008 9:52:35 AM

Poor Ahron, Your brain is riddled with venom and hatred - so you lash out at anything that is not "scientific."


Only when someone presents it as science. Frankly I don't think its venom and hatred, it sounds more like frustration and if that is so, I'm with him all the way.
 Is too hot
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 45
WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/29/2008 5:43:08 PM

A true scientist keeps his/her mind open to possibilities - even something as unprovable as water memory.


neaptide, you have to temper your philosophy with the experience of your audience. In science, anyone making a claim is duty-bound to support it. Anyone claiming that water posses memory is called upon to present evidence. If no evidence is presented, the idea is dismissed. There is no need for anyone to entertain a spurious claim. We are all busy people.

The experience of the scientific community with the specific claim of water memory is that it is used to defraud the credulous of their hard-earned money. This is no innocent proposal we're talking about. It's a fraud and it's used to relieve innocents of their funds on a daily basis. Add to that fact the current status of no evidence presented and you'll see why many scientists recoil at this suggestion. Don't mistake that reaction for a closed mind.

On the other hand, perhaps scientists should stop caring about this stuff. Let the psychics and chakra-merchants bamboozle everyone else. Is ambivalence from scientists what you really want?
 rogerrabbitrr
Joined: 6/27/2008
Msg: 46
WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/29/2008 5:57:07 PM
Hey I'm no scientist, but by what I'm readin' here it sounds to me like a few of ya have been sampling a wee bit too much of John Jameson's product. What the Irish refer to as "the water of life". ( 80 proof foolishness or intellegence dependin on your point of view)
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 47
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WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/29/2008 8:10:37 PM

Even string theory is, at the moment, more philosophy and math than it is science


Don't get me wrong here, I more of a standard model guy, but the science behind string theory is that it can be made to fit the data that we have, it doesn't violate any physical laws and has been show to wrong(yet). That makes it very different the open minded topic of water having memory.
 JohnEDeep
Joined: 7/9/2007
Msg: 48
WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/30/2008 10:34:32 AM
I find it interesting how some posters seem ready and willing to unquestioningly accept Emotto's claims as gospel, yet demand a full accounting of my own scientific inquiry. Tools, techniques, and even my attitude are called into question.

Therein lies the difference. If my findings were in accordance with Emotto's, you would have probably been happy, but since I couldn't duplicate his results, I'm labeled a biased non-believer bent on destroying the wonderment of the unknowable universe.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I exist, therefore I question existance. Anything less, to me, would be a waste of free will.

People choose to believe all sorts of things, some are verifiable, most not. Kids believe fervently in Santa, Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny, etc. until an authority figure breaks the bad news to them that it was all a lie. I'm no authority, just a curious amateur.

My own experiment still stands as the only independent inquiry on this thread. Such a simple set of actions, yet all I read here are declarations of belief. I believe I can fly, but I'll bet there are those who'll scoff. Matters nought to me. It's a matter of perspective...Step out of a plane in mid-air, and you might be surprised how aerodynamic the human body can be at terminal velocity. If water has memory, it stands to reason that air does too, and I'm leaving some pretty happy air in my wake. Breathe deeply, and enjoy my contribution.

Blue Skyz...
JumpinJohnE
 ahron9985
Joined: 4/19/2008
Msg: 49
WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/30/2008 11:44:32 AM
neaptide, you have to temper your philosophy with the experience of your audience. In science, anyone making a claim is duty-bound to support it. Anyone claiming that water posses memory is called upon to present evidence. If no evidence is presented, the idea is dismissed. There is no need for anyone to entertain a spurious claim. We are all busy people.


That's exactly right!!!

That's why i said her arguments are that of a two year old. lol. I don't need to a study with two year olds, because the statment i'm making is not REALLY about two year olds, it's about how pathetic neaptides argument is.

i give up on this thread, there is too many illogical stupid people and people who simply just want to argue for the sake of arguing...like neaptide.

Cheers :)



EDIT: Historicaly to treat depresion they used to put a fork like thingy up the patients nose and mash the front of their brain. Often, the patients became happy, but pretty much brain dead none the less.

All you brain dead ppl who are happy beliving stuff as stupid as water having memory, that's awsome, i'm happy for you ha ha ha ha.
 ahron9985
Joined: 4/19/2008
Msg: 50
WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/31/2008 4:02:35 AM
lol.

:)

(this is just an extra sentance cause you can't post messages to short, etc ect ect)
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 51
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WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 12/8/2009 4:55:13 PM
sorry, couldn't read it all, first page only, I think, [4 year old attention span, stole that from one of my sons] but it is interesting how we are 97% water and not much else.

hey, if your learning about CRAP [not necessarily this stuff] it maybe a blessing [short attention]

so how does thought fit into that 3%?
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 52
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WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 12/9/2009 5:08:01 PM
I know what you mean, having to prove it, you don't! wast of time. people can research it for themselves.

don,t know a thing about it, but love is supposed to be THE answer.

not many know what love is.
 acuddler
Joined: 10/30/2009
Msg: 53
WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 12/9/2009 11:51:18 PM
Also...water is NOT a liquid. It is a fluid mineral...as Mercury is a fluid metal.
 AtomicGogol
Joined: 4/4/2008
Msg: 54
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WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 12/10/2009 1:33:30 AM
I think this is a very admirable message to preach by Dr. Emoto, but I do think he is flawed in his scientific description of it. As with ANY scientific theory, you need peer review and independent research arriving at the same results that you got. If you don't see that happening or - worse- if Emoto doesn't share his research with peers and thus maintains a 'secret awareness' of sorts, then he's inevitably going to be labeled a joke. The fact that he has actually admitted to not being a scientist and is a doctor in certification alone, not actual Ph. D accreditation... well it doesn't help.
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