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 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 190
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The Science of Global WarmingPage 8 of 9    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)

I'm having trouble with the concept of Global Warming right now. The temperature outside is hovering around -16 C; it went down to -23 C last night. My gas furnace has not shut off for the past two weeks. And people still talk about Global Warming and the Arctic warming up. Where is all this cold weather coming from?? The Antarctic?


Isn't it supposed to be cold in the winter? I mean, today is Christmas.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 191
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The Science of Global Warming
Posted: 12/25/2013 11:35:24 AM
One of the fundamentals of Global Warming, which those who actually understanding keep telling people, is that because of the complexity of climate, overall warming does NOT mean that local regions will see nothing but higher temperatures throughout.

Quite the opposite, in fact. It has been said that we will see more variation in our local climates because of the warming. That means that some winters will actually be COLDER for some than they were before, even as the polar ice has been melting back further than it has for hundreds or even thousands of years.
 GreenThumbz18
Joined: 4/25/2012
Msg: 192
The Science of Global Warming
Posted: 12/26/2013 2:47:51 PM
I have been reading a book titled "The People's Almanac" by Wallechinsky & Wallace, 1975, and it contains an interesting entry "Can Man Change the Climate?" At the time of publishing, scientists believed that man might be able to change the climate of the earth. They discussed schemes to coat the Arctic region with carbon dust, so as to melt that ice, but the amount of carbon needed was way too much, so if was impossible to carry out, or by pumping warm water into those areas. The interesting thing is that those scientists argued about the effects of the melting ice. Better or worse? Wetter or drier?
Also they claimed that CO2 in the atmosphere was increased 10% between 1890 and 1975 from the burning of fossil fuels, and that this was believed to have cause a 1/2 degree F rise in temperature, and that the rise could be as much as 2.5 degrees F in the next few hundred years.
But, they add, no one knows for sure whether the earth's temperature will increase because of the carbon dioxide, or what effect it will have, and that more study is needed in this area.
I enjoyed this timepiece article because it is devoid of politics, and being in print, cannot be changed at a moment's notice like a website.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 193
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The Science of Global Warming
Posted: 12/27/2013 12:21:58 AM
Robert Berner developed GEOCARB, a commonly used geochemical model for estimating ancient CO2. He acknowledges that because the model uses 10-million-year steps, it can only make very rough determinations of CO2 concentrations during periods shorter than that.

444 million years ago, in the late Ordovician Era, about the time the first fishes appeared, a glaciation occurred that lasted about a million years. According to the GEOCARB model, the CO2 concentration during that glaciation was somewhere between 2400 and 9000 parts per million by volume. The concentration of carbon dioxide in earth's atmosphere today is something like 400 ppmv.

Even at the low end of that range, then, the estimated concentration of CO2 in earth's atmosphere during the late Ordovician glaciation was six times greater than today, and at the high end, well over twenty times greater. How can that be, if CO2 is contributing substantially to global warming? Why was there not only no runaway greenhouse effect during that million-year period--but of all things, an ice age?

Here is a site where the author proposes an interesting way to reconcile this with the idea that more CO2 in the atmosphere tends to warm the earth. He notes that several geologic events we know were occurring during the Ordovician Era could have caused a few-million year dip in the CO2 concentration about 444 million years ago. He then speculates that even if at its lowest point that concentration was still about 3000 ppmv, many times higher than now, that dip was still enough to bring on the glaciation because the sun was slightly dimmer than today .

http://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-higher-in-past.htm

I think until we know more about what the atmosphere was like during these ancient glaciations--and there were others--this is all pretty speculative. Still, it's food for thought. What's known about the life cycle of stars suggests this guy is probably right the sun was a little dimmer then, on average--but it's also clear the sun's output fluctuates somewhat. And we know there were about 10% more days in a year then, but we don't know if that faster rotation of the earth might have affected the climate, or how.
 Arlo_Troutman
Joined: 6/25/2013
Msg: 194
The Science of Global Warming
Posted: 1/6/2014 8:13:47 AM
I think it was funny, in an ironic way, that that Australian "expidition" got caught in record-breaking Antarctic ice floes...
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 195
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The Science of Global Warming
Posted: 7/12/2015 3:37:35 PM
well, there must be a simple experiment that shows how an increase of co2 in the atmosphere of one, one hundredth of one percent will unbalance nature [whatever caused this easily upset-able balance in the first place].
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 196
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The Science of Global Warming
Posted: 7/12/2015 5:25:46 PM
Yes. It is being conducted as we speak, on the atmosphere of the planet that is third from the big hot yellow round thingy.
 MaleFeasance
Joined: 3/13/2015
Msg: 197
The Science of Global Warming
Posted: 7/16/2015 9:16:12 PM
well, there must be a simple experiment that shows how an increase of co2 in the atmosphere of one, one hundredth of one percent will unbalance nature [whatever caused this easily upset-able balance in the first place].
--------------
Such an experiment is impossible. Look up "chaotic system."
 deerhurst
Joined: 8/23/2014
Msg: 198
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The Science of Global Warming
Posted: 7/19/2015 7:48:34 AM
All we need to do is look at history. History shows repeated cycles of warming and cooling of Earth. The Science of Global Warming is a faux science. Earth will continue to get warmer and cooler and the atmosphere will continue to change. Thats the evolution of our planet. All that means to us is that it will keep spinning for a long time to come.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 199
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The Science of Global Warming
Posted: 7/19/2015 9:02:06 AM
Darn, I'm just going to say what I say too many times whenever this subject comes up...

When we argue for proof of whether or not Humans are affecting things in this way, we're arguing over the wrong thing.

Arguments over climate change, and other possible problems stemming from Human activity, are ultimately over whether or not we should be self-disciplined and responsible for what we do. Being conscientious of what we do is something that we should be doing anyway, regardless of whether or not we're able to have proof of how we affect things. This is not a situation wherein we can afford to wait until we know for sure what effects we're having. We should not take things so for-granted in this department. By the time we have definitive undeniable-by-the-global-ignorant-public proof of our effects, we probably won't get a second chance and it will probably be too late to avert applicable disaster.

To think that Humans are not affecting things is pretty damned outrageous anyway. To preach about how the Earth has natural processes and undergoes natural changes, in order to argue against curbing and improving our activities or claim that we have nothing to worry about, is also outrageously ignorant: That is to claim that we cannot have any effect as Humans just because other things also happen "naturally"; It is to forget, irresponsibly, that we are part of the Earth system; It is to assume that any effects or changes will always be ok or never be negative; It is to assume that bad things will happen anyway whether we try to be responsible or careless; And it is to forget that many of the past "natural" events and changes would be absolutely catastrophic to us if they happened today.

There is a basic way of thinking here that is just so unbelievable and has no excuse. It matters, because the idle beliefs and attitudes of individuals affect a whole planet and the future of some or all of it's inhabitants.
 MaleFeasance
Joined: 3/13/2015
Msg: 200
The Science of Global Warming
Posted: 7/20/2015 3:01:00 AM
All we need to do is look at history. History shows repeated cycles of warming and cooling of Earth. The Science of Global Warming is a faux science.
----------
Are you stoned or just stupid?
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 201
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The Science of Global Warming
Posted: 7/20/2015 3:35:46 AM

All we need to do is look at history. History shows repeated cycles of warming and cooling of Earth. The Science of Global Warming is a faux science.

Just another thing that I said before - If your tire was going to go flat, it would've done it by now. Right?
 BeckyHT
Joined: 1/1/2013
Msg: 202
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The Science of Global Warming
Posted: 8/26/2015 10:10:06 PM
This may help some think about data... here is what is happening at the North Arctic region. You can see with your own eyes, over time since 1979.

The University of Illinois has a department which provides a website on the cryosphere of the North Arctic. http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/

On the bottom left of their website, is "Compare side-by-side images of Northern Hemisphere sea ice extent for any two dates in the satellite record (1979-present)." If you link to it, you get: http://igloo.atmos.uiuc.edu/cgi-bin/test/print.sh?fm=06&fd=15&fy=1982&sm=06&sd=15&sy=2014

There is a drop down left selection for a panel where you can choose any date back to 1979, and there is a drop down right selection for a panel of the same.
So you can pick a date of your choice, e.g. 30 years ago, and a comparable date near today (using the same month/day), and you can see the difference of the amount of the frozen ice cap boundary of the North Arctic.

Real data comparison would take calculating the amount of acreage/area of different times over a broad spectrum of dates.

Still, you can look at a lot of date comparisons, and decide what you think it means.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 203
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The Science of Global Warming
Posted: 3/15/2016 11:14:44 AM
more polar bears now than there ever was.
 oneofzillion
Joined: 6/17/2015
Msg: 204
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The Science of Global Warming
Posted: 3/24/2016 6:09:11 PM
If you watch the Denial Machine, which of course the deniers will not, you will hear the head guy confess that he lied to for money. He confessed because he realised he was ruining the world for his grandchildren.

Follow the money, and you find the deniers.

http://www.triplepundit.com/2011/03/koch-brothers-funding-climate-change-denial-machine/

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/dark-money-funds-climate-change-denial-effort/

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/feb/14/funding-climate-change-denial-thinktanks-network

http://www.climatechangenews.com/2013/09/10/dealing-in-doubt-how-big-oil-funds-climate-denial/

http://www.democracynow.org/2015/2/25/climate_deniers_exposed_top_scientist_got
 natural energy
Joined: 9/23/2006
Msg: 205
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The Science of Global Warming
Posted: 5/4/2016 4:12:57 AM
I have not been on here for many years now ..... I am back ... briefly perhaps.
Hello to you all ... and to the regulars from before!

The fires in Ft. McMurray prompted me to check where the latest climate change (formerly global warming) threads are ... how terms change with time! :smile:

The unchristian side of me is thinking - "don't they deserve it"! I am sorry for saying this. Please forgive me.

The inhabitants are certainly deniers since they live there and work in the oil sands (formerly tar sands) .. another term change! :smile:
The temperature of 30 C they are experiencing already this spring! Do they get it yet?

If only all the deniers would be targeted .... then do you think they will get it?

I consider the deniers as "cop outs" ... it is easy to ignore the realities .... then you don't have to make any effort to help save our planet ..... yes, there are the "natural" cycles of warming and cooling of the earth as you see in the history of the ice ages etc .... it is truly amazing how our planet supports life with our sun .... what I consider a fragile system at it's best! ... it would be great if the scientists would find ways to slow down this cycle of warming and cooling ... is this possible?

I have not read this whole thread, so forgive me again ... I am sure that I may be repeating things here ....

As Gwynne Dyer states ... as many scientists state .... as all the politicians in the world are aware ....
...and wikipedia even covers it:


Avoiding Dangerous Climate Change
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about the conference. For the concept of avoiding climate change, see Climate change mitigation.

Avoiding Dangerous Climate Change: A Scientific Symposium on Stabilisation of Greenhouse Gases was a 2005 international conference that examined the link between atmospheric greenhouse gas concentration, and the 2 °C (3.6 °F) ceiling on global warming thought necessary to avoid the most serious effects of global warming. Previously this had generally been accepted as being 550 ppm.

The conference took place under the United Kingdom's presidency of the G8, with the participation of around 200 'internationally renowned' scientists from 30 countries. It was chaired by Dennis Tirpak and hosted by the Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction and Research in Exeter, from 1 February to 3 February.[1]


The war in Syria has roots in the climate change occurring in their country and surrounding countries .... We are safer up here in the north ..... the countries near the equator are not .... however .... look at what is happening in Ft. McMurray now and Australia ..... there are pockets around the world that are affected more than others ... but this keeps changing ... weather "storms" are getting more severe ...... etc .... etc .....

Check out "Students on Ice": http://studentsonice.com/
I will see if I can take a few students on one of these expeditions - Arctic or Antarctic.
I am very happy to see that their focus is on preserving, conserving, and better understanding our planet.
I am sure that these students seeing first hand what is happening to our planet will serve to promote this focus!
I took an Arctic trip in 1995 with the Outfit owned by a few of the polar explorers, who are some of the educators on these expeditions of Students on Ice. So, I can vouch for their expertise and authenticity. I look forward to meeting the many other expert scientists/explorers on their education staff.

I say that we should send all the deniers to live in the locations of climate disasters!
Will they see the picture then? :smile: ... I am a very peaceful person, really!
 natural energy
Joined: 9/23/2006
Msg: 206
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The Science of Global Warming
Posted: 5/4/2016 7:41:30 AM
Don't get me wrong. I do not want anyone injured in this fire, or any disasters.

I also realize that people need jobs, and most people will look at themselves before our planet, for immediate survival ... and having a job is one of the first levels of survival.

We need long term visionaries to lead the way to preserve, conserve, and save this planet ... and all of us to do what we can .... more entrepreneurs, business leaders, and political leaders to work on inventions and infrastructures that will assist saving our planet, rather than destroying it.
 skinnybarncat2
Joined: 5/24/2016
Msg: 207
The Science of Global Warming
Posted: 6/13/2016 10:56:36 AM
We have only had "science" for a very short time. Earth has been here for a very long time. We guess that ice cores gives temperature record of the past. Maybe temps. can be deduced from them,,, I don't know.

It seems that both camps tend to hysteria. So, why don't we just agree that cleaning up the mess people are making is just the right thing to do. Those who think that this will lead to less wealth for them could be shown that it is good PR!
The camp that is fearful of sinking lands could make islands from empty plastic bottles.

Less co2 would only retard plant life. Even if it is not needed for "global warming" alleviation, there will be less trash in the air, on the ground and in the oceans. So, what is the problem.? It' a matter of picking up after the party!!
 high-ground
Joined: 6/16/2013
Msg: 208
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The Science of Global Warming
Posted: 6/28/2016 11:34:55 AM
Natural energy #440,

You shouldn't post what you read without checking. Not the makings of a good teacher. Syria is at 35° Lat with southern border at 33° and Northern at 37° give or take 1/2 degree. That makes it the same distance as most of the USA. That area has for at least a few hundred years always lacked rainfall, and unless you can pump in water it can only sustain a limited population. The largest reason for Syrian migration is the civil war.

We have Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Kuwait, Egypt, Iran, etc, all closer to the Equator. In fact the Nile river gave Egypt an abundance of water and fertile land. But even a few thousand years ago according to scripture they suffered a 7 yr famine.

As for CO2 increasing, that very true ! The impact of 100 ppm's is very limited, but the issue needs to be addressed. Its not a dire emergency, as alarmist's would lead you to believe, and most of all it shouldn't be addressed in Carbon credits and a monetary game like the stock market, or the whole cause will be lost to corruption.

On another note we need to keep in mind the world population has increased 4 fold in the last 100 years, and 8 fold in the last 220 years. To solve the CO2 problem, we also need to address population, and the world's economic model based on continuous growth.
 high-ground
Joined: 6/16/2013
Msg: 209
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The Science of Global Warming
Posted: 6/28/2016 12:35:15 PM
I'm in error about USA being mostly between 37 and 33 Lat. I should use my own advice ! It's more like 1/3 of USA in that latitude range.
 natural energy
Joined: 9/23/2006
Msg: 210
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The Science of Global Warming
Posted: 8/3/2016 9:20:00 AM
Hello high-ground,

I am sorry if I left the impression that Syria is close to the equator .... the comment about the equator has been noted by many re: relationship with the hottest and driest areas of the earth and the relationship with climate change. As I also indicated there are pockets in our world experiencing more adverse weather conditions. There are many more factors as you are aware ... el nino ... el nina .... wind patterns, etc ... I can vouch that the wind patterns are changing where I live ... and the winters are no longer as severe as they have been ... I, actually live in an area that has not experienced such diverse weather storms, except for the very dry summer we are experiencing now thus far .... so, I am very fortunate ... so far!

.. and with the more recent weather disasters .... it only supports that the storms are getting more intense and destructive ... since my last post ... Ft. McMurray is now, very recently (a few days ago), experiencing great flooding! ... again, different weather than they have been experiencing over many years! .... they have not even recovered from their fires yet!

.. with my preparation for the Students On Ice expedition ... I am reading more about our polar regions .. they are a real indicator for what is occurring on our planet .... You also have been experiencing severe weather changes in California over the years .... impacting your water resources, etc.

Australia has been drastically affected with droughts for many years now! etc ... etc ...

It appears, that generally, for now, if you live mid-way between the poles and the equator, you are in the best areas of our world .. having to take in consideration proximity to great bodies of water, mountains, etc, which also affect weather ... except for the changes in wind patterns, etc that will continue .... so, this will continue to change.

... 2015 has been noted as the hottest year on record ... and 2016 may surpass it .... this does not mean USA temps only... this takes in account the whole world temps.

If you research further, there is much evidence to support that many Syrian farming families moved to the bigger cities in Syria and the surrounding countries, before the Civil unrest started in Syria ... thus tipping the balance of sustainability in the large Syrian cities ... a good climate for ISIS to be created, as well as many other groups ... I am no expert in the Middle East History ... I will also suggest that most people do not really know what is occurring over there ... which is why it is very difficult for USA to decide who to support, etc ... as for Canada, Great Britain, Germany, France, etc .. UN, etc ... it has been a mess for years .... and not understood by most people ... not an easy area to assist ....

However .. the pattern: .... where there is oil ... is where UN and USA appear to assist with inhumane dictatorships and civil unrest!

Yes, there are many factors affecting climate change .... we should do what we can to reduce the speed at which it is occurring, as I indicated in my post ..... I also don't purchase produce and foods created from produce from the countries with high levels of pollution in their soils and water sources .... this is also affecting the health levels in people ... this also affects the trade agreements, etc ....

So ... no easy answer!

Note re: population ... is is not increasing in North America as it is in the rest of the world. There are some great TED videos about population - check out Hans Rosling's TED videos.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 211
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Posted: 8/3/2016 10:36:03 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UCmCs7hc1g

One must watch the whole thing.
 natural energy
Joined: 9/23/2006
Msg: 212
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The Science of Global Warming
Posted: 8/3/2016 1:45:57 PM
I watched parts of this video .... enough to see that it was the history of innovation ....

Global Sustainabiltiy is the challenge!

.. I am an organic gardener .. who purchases some organic food (knowing that one must believe the produce is organic) ... I can't believe that produce coming from Mexico, China, etc can be organic since their watereways are so polluted! ... so. I watch where the produce is coming from .... and if you believe the labeling ... I know that when "they" know that some of us watch out for these things, that their labeling can be easily changed ... to ensure they sell their produce! ... false advertising and labelling ...... I am sure that it occurs, even with the bodies who "regulate" this. There are trade agreements that must be met!

I also buy locally when I can ......... I am even planting my own plants to make my own teas (some organic, wild or heirloom plants) ... since the teas comming from Asia and India, as an example .. how can they be healthy with all their polluted water?

.. so ....... GMO and re-planting practices, etc to increase crop yields will produce in greater volumes ... but then there are the risks of the ill-effects of these "changed" plants and their long term effects on the health of humans that I am concerned with ..... there must be careful testing of these plants before being consumed by the total population ....

Yes, there is no easy answer to feed all the humans on our planet ............... a challenge in the future to go hand in hand with the challenges of global sustainability. We need leaders who will make the correct decisions for us ... and better education for all the population ... and better interconnectivity between the countries .............

... unfortunately ... bottom line dollars and profits are the targets for corporations, etc ..... others are required to challenge and regulate to help meet global sustainability!

If we purchase produce from other countries, then those countries must work on cleaning up their polluted waters! ... as a prime example! .... this also will help with curbing climate change ...... they are interrconnected!
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 213
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The Science of Global Warming
Posted: 8/5/2016 3:32:59 AM

I watched parts of this video .... enough to see that it was the history of innovation ....

Well...not completely. Like I said, one must watch all of it.

Something else that comes to mind:

https://www.amazon.com/Half-Earth-Our-Planets-Fight-Life/dp/1631490826

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq3w7cldgMU
 NYCKOSI
Joined: 4/24/2015
Msg: 214
The Science of Global Warming
Posted: 12/2/2016 9:29:50 AM
The North and South poles have not Melted yet. What does that tell you? We are still in the last phase of the ice age. If we like it or not, the N & S poles will melt one day; not in our lifetime perhaps thousands of yeas from now. It will happen. Global Warming is happening. It has nothing to do with carbon pollution. Carbon pollution just speeds up the process a bit.
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