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 AUTHOR
 sugarstwisted9
Joined: 11/21/2007
Msg: 7
Moving to another province with childPage 2 of 2    (1, 2)
Ok, all emotions aside, looks like I won't need to move after all, we have after a long heated discussion, come to a agreament that works for all parties involved:)
YEAHHHHH
Thank God because those lawyers fees were looking insanely high,
FYI my son is 10 months old.
 kismetseeker
Joined: 5/23/2008
Msg: 8
Moving to another province with child
Posted: 7/17/2008 7:20:16 PM
You seem to have resolved it. Had you not, I would have suggested simply having a consult with a family law lawyer to see what you options might be. The consult is just that, might cost $100 to $200. At least, you'd know your rights.

I'm in the same boat. Moved to the East Coast as a family unit and have two kids. Now we're separated (three years) and I'm nowhere near my family and friends back in Ontario. We have joint custody. I want to move, with them, back to Ontario. It's complicated.
 AnimalicMan
Joined: 12/26/2007
Msg: 9
view profile
History
Moving to another province with child
Posted: 7/18/2008 12:05:57 PM
I gained Custody 2 years ago in Ontario, of my now 8 year old daughter
I did not spend a $. Before I gained custody I took my daughter and did not let her mother see her untill I had the papers in my hand. (she could not do a thing because my name was on the birth certificate and neither one of us had any legal papers) I went to the provincial family court and applied for custody filled out a buch of paper work ie. explaining why i was better fit to raise my child. The courts made a court date for both parties to attend and served my daughters mother her papers. Then I convinced "The Mother" to Not show up for the court date, adding that I had alot more money then her, and that all the money we both spend over this battle, that will end up in lawyers pockets would be better off in my daughters bank account, She aggreed!! So she did not show for the one single court date , and I was awarded Full Custudy...
Now my daughter see's Her mom every other weekend and on special events and I have never once seen any child support, but I have never asked for any.
AS far as I know if there are no legal papers who ever has their name on the B.C calls the shots
 Northern Lights
Joined: 9/17/2004
Msg: 10
Moving to another province with child
Posted: 7/18/2008 3:38:42 PM
Then I convinced "The Mother" to Not show up for the court date, adding that I had a lot more money then her


Ok, I'm sorry, but this is a low down, rotten dirty thing to do. You threw your weight around and you got sole custody. Now that's something to be proud of!!

Just how exactly are you going to explain to your daughter that you essentially 'bought' her when she gets old enough to start asking questions?

And what if "The Mother" tells her how you ended up with custody?

Deplorable. Hardly something to be proud of IMO.


AS far as I know if there are no legal papers who ever has their name on the B.C calls the shots


Not true. Both parents have rights. My brother is going thru this right now. His name was not added to the BC and when things went south with the mother, guardianship of the baby went to her parents. Once he proved paternity via DNA, all of the sudden he got some rights and is now gearing up to take them to court for guardianship of his daughter.

Just because a fathers name is not on the BC, does not mean he's out of the picture. If a man is determined, like my brother is, he can very well end up with custody, the LEGAL way. If one has a good lawyer, anything is possible.
 AnimalicMan
Joined: 12/26/2007
Msg: 11
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History
Ok, I'm sorry, but this is a low down, rotten dirty thing to do. You threw your weight around and yo
Posted: 7/19/2008 7:58:44 AM
Listen Lady , I made a very long storey short. "the mother" happened to be hooked on oxy cotton, was getting beat up by her boyfriend, was stealing money from me and her family, Also Her family came to me and told me to take my child from her, So don't tell me that this was low and dirty. Would you rather your child left with a Drug addict or a professional Making 80k/year

By the way Her visitations are Supervised
 rekey08
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 12
Ok, I'm sorry, but this is a low down, rotten dirty thing to do. You threw your weight around and yo
Posted: 7/19/2008 9:49:44 PM
Don't move the child halfway across the country. It's not fair to him/her. Both parents should have access to the child whenever possible. Although it's hard to put down roots in a new place where you don't have family, you should be brave and do it anyways, because it's the right and unselfish thing to do.

As far as being charged with abduction, I don't believe that part is true. I think there has to be a court order stating custody/access terms for it to come to criminal charges. If you left the province, your child's father could petition the courts to have the baby brought back, at which time you would have to prove that the move was necessary for either family or economical reasons, and that you have the means necessary to encourage an active relationship with the child's father (which means you would most likely be responsible for regular plane tickets).

As with any legal advice though, always get a legal consultation with a lawyer.
 ***sum;bl1ss
Joined: 6/6/2007
Msg: 13
Ok, I'm sorry, but this is a low down, rotten dirty thing to do. You threw your weight around and yo
Posted: 7/20/2008 11:37:56 AM
I've been gettin close to someone in alberta. and my sons father, is not involved. he didnt so much care when i was planning on moving 4hrs away.
he doesnt see, or pay for my son, he really doesnt care. sadly, he is on the certificate. and my son has his last name. which sometime i'd like to change..
im in b.c. im almost 99% positive the father wont get the engery to go to lawyers and make a fuss about things, hes already plannin on marrying his 16yo gf.
would it still matter, if he knew or not?
we have no contact.
 ***sum;bl1ss
Joined: 6/6/2007
Msg: 14
Ok, I'm sorry, but this is a low down, rotten dirty thing to do. You threw your weight around and yo
Posted: 7/20/2008 7:19:59 PM

doesn't respond or doesn't dispute the name change you can change it

he probs wont do anything. i may really have a chance. but this thread isnt about names..
 ~JustSimplyMe~
Joined: 8/18/2006
Msg: 15
view profile
History
Moving to another province with child
Posted: 7/21/2008 8:54:15 AM

I have heard that if you go to another province and file for custody, then they have to come to that province....is that true?


When my ex and I split, he brought our children to BC to live with my mom until things got straightened out. He was scared that I was going to take the kids and run....so essentially he did it first. While he was in BC he called a lawyer for a consultation about custody and such, the lawyer told him to pray that I didn't call the police and have him charged with kidnapping our children. If the children were here without my permission (no matter his reasoning) in the laws eyes its abduction.
 queensandradee
Joined: 8/3/2010
Msg: 16
Moving to another province with child
Posted: 11/24/2010 9:11:33 AM
ok questiom other way around for me, my ex left we had simple divorce kids stay with me and in spearation agreement i agreed he could see thme when he wanted to, he moved back to b.c. and is living with new woman n three kids my kids will be 8 and 10 he wants them for one month in summer i am uncomfortable they will be so far away from me so long and can't come home when they want as i am their sole caregiver. we split in march and he has called them one a week if that ever since, came to see them for one week in summer, he is not the man i thought he was and i'm feeling motherbearish do i need to let my likds go? he would fly them there. i live in ontario
 ~JustSimplyMe~
Joined: 8/18/2006
Msg: 17
view profile
History
Moving to another province with child
Posted: 11/24/2010 2:31:04 PM
QSD: My ex took my kids to Alberta last summer, the only way I would let them go was with the strict promise that they could come home as soon as they asked to come home. They were home after 10 days instead of the 3 weeks he had planned to have them.
I'd talk to the kids and see how THEY feel. Their feelings are more important right now than how you would feel about them being gone for so long
 My I
Joined: 1/23/2007
Msg: 18
Moving to another province with child
Posted: 11/24/2010 3:29:22 PM

i'm feeling motherbearish do i need to let my likds go?

Keeping in mind what you stated:

i agreed he could see thme when he wanted to

You're going back on your word if you refuse. If that is the case, then this also applies to you:

he is not the man i thought he was

but obviously altered to read you're not being the "woman" he thought you would be.

You're living in different provinces and across the country from each other. At least he is keeping in contact with the kids and he's offerring to take them for a month in the summer. It's not that unreasonable and it's a lot better than some parents who live locally and never see their kids.

Personally, if they were my kids I would encourage them to go because that part of the country is gorgeous, exciting and adventurous. I don't think a child can grasp the scope and beauty of the Rocky Mountains without physically seeing them. I know I was in awe the first time I saw such beautiful landscape..... I'll never forget it.

I can understand the mother part of you being concerned but you need to think of everyone involved and look at the bigger picture.
 Tealwood
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 19
Moving to another province with child
Posted: 11/24/2010 3:43:35 PM

Did you ask your children what they think of it? They are old enough to have a say about this. Are they excited and happy about going or not? Do they feel 1 month is ok or too long?


Just love the ones who instruct or teach others how to manipulate their children?

But it is a shame the children are so immature and young for their age?


i'm feeling motherbearish do i need to let my likds go?


Or is the reality the problem coming from the mother? Free access to the phone to call home...with open discussion about the children staying with their father for the time suggested? Even though if he was smart he would be working on fewer weeks to start. Making the kids want more the next time...as opposed to long and drudgery setting in....but then the problem of the mother feeling left out...missing her children...is really the major concern she has...and the only concern....

Hardest thing i did was allowing my two to go on vacation or away....and after the first time....easiest thing as the more time they spent away or with my ex...the greater the reinforcement that they had things better here.....

But then...that requires the knowledge and the self assurance that you are doing the better job....as opposed to being afraid that your children may find things are better on the other side.

But go ahead and ask lots of questions...there are many ways that one can manipulate the feelings and ideas that young children have....something a custodial parent must always be cognizant of...
 Walts
Joined: 5/7/2005
Msg: 20
Moving to another province with child
Posted: 11/24/2010 4:51:55 PM
IN CANADA,,,,use a court mediator when deciding who,what,where with the kids!!!!!! No charge,,,,you sit like two ADULTS ,talk, debate,argue,,,whatever in front of the mediator about what is BEST for your children. Remember,,,as a mother or father,who thinks you have been "wronged" by your ex,,,,it DOES'NT matter to your children. They still would like to see their Mommy AND Daddy!!!!!!

When the ex and I went to our mediator we BOTH agreed to having a WRITTEN agreement if we even took our daughter out of the lowermainland here in BC for even a weekend trip. It somewhat relieves some of the pressure, worries,etc about your children,,,,,legally and technically.

Also remember,,,,,abductions happened most of the time when both parents are being idiots about the childrens visit/RIGHTS. Yeah,,,,I said it. Your CHILD has rights,,,,no matter what ya think/believe of your ex. Keep your child away from your ex for any other reason other than TRUE abuse(not made up in your head because your ex is a cheater,moron,whatever),,, THEN you are the moron,,,,and your children WILL make sure you hear about it sooner or later.
THINK very clearly before you want to start moving all over this country and seperating your child from the other parent,,,,and don't use the excuse of no friends, missing your family,looking for work,etc.(would you use those excuses if you were still with your ex????) THINK of your child. Either that,,,or look in the mirror and ask yourself what kind of parent you truely are.
 S.O.U.L
Joined: 11/23/2009
Msg: 21
Moving to another province with child
Posted: 11/25/2010 10:19:52 AM
What about the father-child relationship? If he's the non-custodial parent he already has less than time with the child than the mother...now she moves across the country while her time with the child remains the same and the child support stays the same as well. Plus he now has to incur traveling expenses plus child support to remain active in his child life.

If they both agreed to have and raise the child in one location then that's where the child needs to be. He has as much as right to be an active part of the child's life as she does.
 Tealwood
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 22
Moving to another province with child
Posted: 11/26/2010 2:31:45 PM

You'll have to explain this one to us, Tealwood.
How is asking your children what they want, rather than take a decision for them, being manipulative, exactly?


Wow...a trained professional asking how having a custodial parent...a parent with,
in most if not all situations an agenda...or a preconceived idea of what is or is not appropriate asking questions...asking in in all probability a leading question or with leading suggestions what the preference of the child may be...

next thing you will be suggesting is allowing or asking the child or children if they want to go to school...or if the would prefer to go to school 2-3 days instead of the mandated 5 days....all valid questions based on the premise of equally suggesting it was alright to ask the children if they would prefer not miss the custodial parent and instead only go for 2 weeks rather than the 4 weeks that is being considered....

But then that is why children services all suggest that when a child has been traumatised in some manner professionals with appropriate training deal with the children in determining what occured rather than have them parrot or tell the ones doing the questioning what they want to hear...rather than what really might have happened...or what they think the parent wants to hear...

but then....what the heck....i never suggested being a professional in dealing with children...or having the accreditation....but i know that leading children with questions is really not that difficult when they already have issues brought about by the separation or division of their parents and the anxiety of being away from the central parenting role who is can we say>>>>easily portraying to their children their unhappiness with the situation....and a question will be legitimate?
 Walts
Joined: 5/7/2005
Msg: 23
Moving to another province with child
Posted: 11/26/2010 3:33:15 PM
^^^^^^Sorry,,,teal,,,your off base here.Asking honest questions and actually listening to your child is not wrong or manipulative. Acting,as a parent, after a discussion can, and should still happen,,,but not listening(or asking), or just dismissing what your child tells you,because they are the "child" is slightly retarded. Your child will sometimes point out things that you don't see or know,,,,if for the only reason,,,they have another pair of eyes. A child also can and should be part of certain decisions or choices,,,,not all,,,but some. It's leads to an amazing adult in the end,,,,and even a better parent when the time comes.
And yeah,,,we know(well at least the single parents that have a brain) that children will fib and play each parent,their different rules,etc against each other,,,but if both of the parents are on the same page,(even when they hate each other),they solve the problem between themselves and make sure the child(ren) know they know. Teaching your children how to discuss,debate,INTELLLIGENTLY when they disagree with you is something most parents can't figure out. Also teaching your children that it's the parent's responsibility to make the "call" when it comes down to the crunch is NOT a bad thing,,,,just as teaching them they can be part of the process,,,if they do it the right way.
I'm betting you have uttered the words,,,,, "CAUSE I SAID SO"!!!!! once or twice before??????? To even think this, is a major failure of a lot of parents. And don't think your child will forget em,cause they seem to be repeated thru many generations.
 Tealwood
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 24
Moving to another province with child
Posted: 11/27/2010 8:13:49 AM

Seriously. You should try not to see the gender / custody war everywhere, Tealwood.


Seriously one should get down from the clouds and understand that agendas and personal emotions are always present and part of the dynamics in post divorce separation structure.

neither of my children wanted to go and spend time with their mother....and told me so...and would look for reasons for not going....and despite being told...I did everything possible to facilitate their involvement with their mother.....as opposed to asking if they wanted to go...which I knew they did not as I was listening to them.....asking them how they were and other general non specific questions....enabling me to hear what they were thinking without...coercing...or manipulating the answers to what I wanted or what would substantiate the stance i want...like 1 month is to long....which I also happen to agree with....

after numerous problems..and serious screaming matches and fights at the other house...what i realized was the dynamics worked far better if one daughter was with their mother at a time.....

the younger daughter for close to 3 years...would go for a few hours at best...and only spent overnights at her mothers 2-4 nights a year....I happen to have it all documented...but also during that time...she would not go away overnight on school trips or with friends....something a professional who I consulted with...labeled as minor separation anxiety....based on comments and things said while i was listening...as opposed to asking leading questions...



next thing you will be suggesting is allowing or asking the child or children if they want to go to school...


Why not? Asking them how they feel and what they want does not mean you have to do it. There is a world of difference between listening to your kid and letting the kid take the decisions. If my kid didn't want to go to school, I'd certainly want to hear it, and I'd like to find out why, too. It might also influence the choice of school I am sending him to, or the kind of extra curricular activities I am registering him for, or how I respond to the teachers at the next parent meeting.


LOL....maybe when you have children...or are around children 24/7...as opposed to seeing them in a clinical setting when they are acting their best..or putting on a persona...you might have a better understanding of all the issues in respect to the children?

As to choosing where you would send your children to school? Must be nice to have the money to send your children to private school? Based in Ontario...or most area's you go to the school in the geographical boundaries you live in....both public and catholic school system....

But when i moved last spring....I was very carefull to read the Fraser Report and interview schools before i would go looking at homes in a specific area....different schools have various levels of academic achievement.....as to extra curricular activities....been a coach in a number of sports....one should see the number of kids doing sports the parents think they want to do....based on telling the parents what they want to hear...but in reality...they would prefer not being there...or playing in lower leagues....so one in asking questions..often is leading the the children in what they hope to hear...rather then what in reality is the real feelings...and in dealing with parents in high conflict scenarios.....and when i was involved with assisting fathers in improving custodial roles ....the question most stressed was asking what do you mean....or could you explain that...or why is that....rather than asking do you want to go to school....or do you want to go vist your father for a month or would you rather only go 2 weeks and then go later for two weeks.....


if he had or never had a prior experience of a long term separation from the primary caretaker, and so on. And a part of answering these questions is with the child himself.


LOL...well aware of how this worked....separation from the primary caregiver..something i suggested a year or so when the boy was screaming about going to the father...and you without a thought advocated not allowing the child to go..until it was proven that their was not physical abuse occurring....but then you have never had to hand over a child at the daycare while they struggle to stay in your arms....only to watch a few minutes later from outside as they happily played with their friends....


I know it's not easy for you to understand this, Tealwood, but really, not EVERY single parent out there has an AGENDA. As hard as it may be to conceive this for you, some parents actually do genuinely care about what their children feel and want.


And Conscious soul...I also put to you...I know it is very difficult for you to understand that mothers are just as prone to doing everything wrong that the fathers are capable of doing...and that in a post separation environment when there are heightened feelings of anger or frustration directed to the ex partner...and anyone who is directing a parent to be asking direct questions to the children is doing a disservice to the best interest of the children both in the short term and in the long term....which has nothing to do with not listening...or asking for clarification...but avoiding asking direct questions which can easily lead to answerer's that the child perhaps feels you want to hear.

So really.....assisting a parent in reducing time...or validating a parent in reducing time away from them...and ultimately robbing the child of a relationship with the non custodial parent is wrong...no matter how you might like to dress it up with your opinion of allowing or enabling children to make decisions....that you want to support...aka....seeing the non custodial less.

not seeing custodial wars....just seeing quasi professional suggesting ways to minimize the non custodial parent...suggesting always...that one promote and support time with the non custodial parent even if things seems at times to be troubled...advocating that a custodial parent does not have the right to dictate terms or rules that have to be followed in both homes....

But Conscious soul...since you have in other issues been so prone to adding literature to the arguement...perhaps you might like to comment on the issue of marginalizing the time or role of the non custodial parent...when they live far apart?


New Data Suggesting That Current Legal Rules May Not Serve the Interests of Children Whose Parents Relocate After Divorce by Sanford L. Braver, Ira Mark Ellman, and William V. Fabricius which has been revised and resubmitted May 21, 2002 to the Journal of Family Psychology. This study shows quite definitely that the interests of the child are different than the interests of a custodial parent when mobility is the issue. Included in here are cases where one parent, usually the father it seems, is driven away by the other parent.


Sanford L. Braver Department of Psychology Arizona State University
Ira Mark Ellman Department of Law also Arizona
William V. Fabricius Department of Psychology Arizona State University

But it seems you want to listen to the child ....or what the custodial parent is suggesting.... and enable or validate the further reducing of the role or involvement of the non custodial parent.


I know you might not hearing this...but best interest of the child is not always following the words or sense of entitlement fostered by the custodial parent...be it the norm mother...or the fastest growing segment in society...the custodial father.
 Tealwood
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 25
Moving to another province with child
Posted: 11/27/2010 1:59:55 PM

The main backbone to both that case and mine was that, given that all the needs pertaining to the child had been accounted and cared for, and that the custodial parent would be happier (this had to be proven, point by point), the relocation was allowed.


So the needs of the custodial parent supersedes the needs or interests of the non custodial parent?


Payne vs. Payne

85. In summary I would suggest that the following considerations should be in the forefront of the mind of a judge trying one of these difficult cases. They are not and could not be exclusive of the other important matters which arise in the individual case to be decided. All the relevant factors need to be considered, including the points I make below, so far as they are relevant, and weighed in the balance. The points I make are obvious but in view of the arguments presented to us in this case, it may be worthwhile to repeat them.

(a) The welfare of the child is always paramount


The welfare of the child...yet in the paper mentioned...they suggest studies of college students significant differences favouring children of divorce whose parents did not move away?

So the court case you use.....#1 criteria....welfare of the child being paramount would or may need to be reconsidered....based on new studies?


In my case, the non custodial parent (to use your terminology) could be a lot more involved in decision making. Unfortunately, he doesn't want to be, but that has nothing to do with me or the relocation.


Sorry but I see your view as simply he does not follow or agree with what you say......so when he chooses not to engage what he and his parents understand to be a no win situation...you suggest he is not involved...

but what was drawn from your response to the MP3 player your ex gave to his daughter...and his parents giving the barbie doll and you removing both as not appropriate...simply underlying the reality that...if it is not in your view appropriate...then it does not happen....so why would a parent wish or desire to engage in fruitless dialogue with someone like that?
 My I
Joined: 1/23/2007
Msg: 26
Moving to another province with child
Posted: 11/27/2010 6:11:34 PM

the custodial parent would be happier (this had to be proven, point by point), the relocation was allowed

^^^ This is where women like you believe I am a woman hater. I see a lot of contradiction in your post and it's obviously blatant. Your ex did not want you to relocate. The child was cared for and no issues arose in that respect. However, you're not happy being there and he's not happy you want to leave. A decision was rendered and his misery is inflicted by the courts for the sake of your happiness.

That, in itself, gives you most, if not nearly all, authorative power in regards to the child and in regards to moving anywhere you please in order to keep you " happy." I guess that means you can move again for the sake of your happiness.

With that said, it's obvious who makes the decisions and who has the power. When you make this claim:

In my case, the non custodial parent (to use your terminology) could be a lot more involved in decision making

^^^ If you're not "happy" with something the ex wants.... well...... you'd probably start snivelliing and claim you're not "happy". And we all know what that means.

This is where people get pissed ay me. I believe if you seek out something you had better realise there are consequences. You alienated your child from her father by moving all under the guise of your happiness. Accept the fact he knows you have the final say and your happiness trumps his wishes. Also accept the fact that he may be letting you make the decision because he doesn't have a choice.

And please... don't claim you're the cooperative one.

My sister is also divorced from the father of her daughter and relocated elsewhere, and he is fully cooperative and involved in his daughter's life

Even though their marriage didn't work out, it seems your sister picked a better man to have children with, in the long run...... another factor for you to consider as opposed to blaming your ex over and over again.
 Haven_11
Joined: 5/11/2009
Msg: 27
Moving to another province with child
Posted: 12/2/2010 2:15:51 PM
Depending on the laws in Calgary. If you two do not have a written/agreed and signed order on child support and custody/visitation. If all of this is just verbal between the two of you, then you cannot be forced to stay or return to Calgary. See? You have broken no written laws. Right now, if there is no signed order(signed by you and him and signed in by the Judge involved in Family Cases) then you have broken no laws. In the States, we have a County Attorney. It is free to ask for legal advice regarding your situation.

If you cannot in any way financially make it in Calgary and all your family and ties are elsewhere, I can't imagine you being forced to live in poverty because Calgary says so.

Good Luck.
 S.O.U.L
Joined: 11/23/2009
Msg: 28
Moving to another province with child
Posted: 12/2/2010 4:01:43 PM
What about the father-child relationship? Doesnt he have a right to have as much one on one time with child as she does?
 Walts
Joined: 5/7/2005
Msg: 29
Moving to another province with child
Posted: 12/2/2010 4:08:09 PM
Quit replying guys and girls. The OP is now back at being " married" in her profile. She either got remarried or they decided to stay married, or,,,hell I don't have a clue anymore what the hell goes thru these young ladies' minds anymore.

Quite disturbing is what comes to mind though.
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