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 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 182
McCain and AgePage 8 of 9    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)
If you look at my postings, you'll know that I'm as anti-McCain as the next guy, but I'm not entirely sure you have your facts straight.

2. He's fervently against a timetable in Iraq. He is losing major points on this one.
10. He was anti-torture for the last 60 years of his life (certainly when he was a POW), but he recently changed his position to pro-torture (or at least, not banning torture)
11. For those who didn't go to that link, McCain fought against an increase in benefits to veterans. He later defended the stance on CNN saying that if we increased access to education for Veterans, then they wouldn't remain soldiers for as long

That aside, I agree with MtLoop. This is just a political chameleon routine, not a sign of age. Well, unless his increased desperation is because he knows he will die soon.
 designingwoman
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 183
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History
McCain and Age
Posted: 8/3/2008 9:45:59 PM
McCain is one scary old (unprintable). His flip flops for no valid reason, hair trigger temper, warmongering and other behaviors are frightening. His lack of maturity despite advanced age scares me too. Singing about bombing Iran belongs in junior high school not the national political stage. Frankly, I know several young children who are more mature than John McCain!! These little kids are less than ten years old, but have a maturity that John McCain will never have! One is only five years old, but knows better than to say, tease people to upset them or sing inappropriate songs. That child would do a better job as president than John McCain!!
 flyonthewall!
Joined: 3/31/2008
Msg: 184
McCain and Age
Posted: 8/4/2008 5:14:24 AM
Oh give up on that "hair trigger" thing. It ain't so. Children in the office of President? Are you serious?

And no one can complain about McCain "flip flops" when Obama does it so well:

1) He decried union contributions to John Edwards campaign were bad, but the same contributions were "good" when made to Obama.

2) He promised to use public financing in the election if his opponent also did. Now he's reversed that position. Even if McCain couldn't raise boatloads of cash, Cindy could dump enough money in to make the difference. McCain isn't allowing that.

3) Change of stance on the Cuba embargo was totally self-serving. He was for it, until speaking to Cubans now living in Miami.

4) In 2004 Obama supported a crackdown on illegal aliens, now he favors cracking down on the employers instead.

5) In 2004 Obama supported the decriminalization of marijuana, in 2007 he no longer did.

6) Obama supported first an "immediate withdrawal" from Iraq, then a 16-month withdrawal, and now he's on a "wait and see" agenda.

7) First he was against wiretapping, now he's for it.

8) He objected to the Supreme Court's decision outlawing the death penalty for child rapists, even though he is against capital punishment.

Obama has also changed his stance on NAFTA, corporate taxes (he's now in favor of reducing them as reported in the WSJ in June), the DC handgun bill, welfare reform, energy policy, nuclear power (he was against it, now says we can't "take it off the table").

I could go on, but what would be the point?
 MacKevinized
Joined: 2/15/2006
Msg: 185
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History
McCain and Age
Posted: 8/4/2008 8:01:13 AM

Oh give up on that "hair trigger" thing. It ain't so. Children in the office of President? Are you serious?

And no one can complain about McCain "flip flops" when Obama does it so well:

blah, blah.....

Obama has also changed his stance on NAFTA, corporate taxes (he's now in favor of reducing them as reported in the WSJ in June), the DC handgun bill, welfare reform, energy policy, nuclear power (he was against it, now says we can't "take it off the table").

I could go on, but what would be the point?


McCain is under orders to treat the campaign as a sick joke. His temper is apparent every time he hears a question he doesn't like. He just ends the interview as soon as he hears one.

I have an old top that still works but it doesn't spin as good as you.
 designingwoman
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 186
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History
McCain and Age
Posted: 8/4/2008 8:36:51 PM
Stranger put it very well, describing McCain's changes in temperament with no known causes or external stimuli. McCain being McCain His memory issues, emotional problems and temper are problematic and not desirable in a President.
 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 188
McCain and Age
Posted: 8/5/2008 12:59:27 AM
In regards to the 8 criticisms...

2. He opposes the campaign financing system as a whole. He and McCain have both said it is broken and needs to be abolished. However, Obama said he'd consider using it if McCain did. He later decided, screw this: I'll let the people talk.

3. Hmm, you talk to the people a policy effects, then you realize you made a mistake. You change your position because the old one was wrong. Why is that a bad thing again?

4. What is the most effective way to crack down on a large mass of illegal people trying to get jobs: track down every person who has already demonstrated being able to evade the government or track down the much smaller number of business owners who have to file paperwork saying their location?

5. Decriminalization doesn't mean legalization. Obama says that we spend way to much time and too many resources finding marijuana users then we throw them away for decades at tax payer expense. He says we should focus on stopping big drug dealers and rethink throwing away occasional or recreational users (who don't deal) for so long. He did however admit that there was a misunderstanding and that it stemmed from decriminalization not having a universally accepted meaning in politics.

6. As you learn more about something, you change your opinion. After talking to generals, foreign policy advisors, and going there to see what it's like, he thinks something different than just what he would pick ideologically. It's so strange to think a politician could have ideals and to think that he could change his mind.

8. Obama isn't opposed to the death penalty. He thinks it's used too often. He also is really worried that we might make a mistake and when dealing with life or death that isn't ok. So when he was in the state senate (that was way before he wanted to be president) he proposed a bill to require video taping of interrogations for capital cases. So, he believes that the death penalty is ok only when the crime is so heinous that the community must exact its fullest outrage. Oh, and for the record, he's stated publicly that it doesn't deter crime (which is supported by statistics).

As for your slew at the end (which mysteriously missed offshore drilling), most of them are either him being willing to compromise or changes in position after getting new information from changing conditions.

Why is it that in this country we expect our leaders to be infallible? We want people who make the right choices the first time around, but these days changing your mind is so devastating that if you once said 2+2 is 3, you have to stick by it despite everyone knowing better. I'd far rather have a leader who will admit he's wrong and says "it's ok to give a little to get a little" because that's the only way this country will move forward.
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 190
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History
McCain and Age
Posted: 8/5/2008 12:39:14 PM
I rescind my earlier statement.

He had a a long pause that even has those who were making fun of his age, now kind of concerned that he really has lost his faculties. Wow, it was scary!
 toonsmith
Joined: 1/19/2005
Msg: 191
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History
McCain and Age
Posted: 8/5/2008 6:58:39 PM
I remember watching a newscast a couple of years ago when McCain blew up at Maria Shriver trying to ask him a question before he took the stage. There are probably many incidents documented regarding his short fuse.

I admired the maverick McCain of a decade ago. But I became disillusioned when I saw him flip flop and embrace Dubya. (Say it ain't so, McCain)

I respect his service and dedication to our great country. I would have voted for the man years ago. But this is just simply not the same man.

I don't think he stands much of a chance in this race that ultimately will boil down to Old Age versus Youth. Not only that... but we don't want more of the SAME. These last two terms have been hell. No amount of spin is going to change that sad fact.

I am NOT better off than I was when Bush took office and blaming Clinton from eons ago just doesn't cut it. Frankly, not thrilled with either Obama or McCain.... Obama is a professional politico with a limited track record and a great PR team. But he does have youth and energy on his side. I'm willing to vote for him to give him a chance.

We don't need another Herbert Hoover to preside over another depression era.

.... and a man that I admired years ago.... turned into a grumpy old man.
 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 193
McCain and Age
Posted: 8/5/2008 7:35:21 PM
I'm also kinda wondering if his age isn't impacting his campaign strategy. I mean what rational person would pick to change their positions to those of the least popular president in history and focus his stance on how he is adamantly not Obama? His platform has kinda changed from issues to, Obama isn't as awesome as he says he is, just pretty close; please don't look at my positions... I mean, you have to wonder what is going on with your mental faculties if you think that's a good idea.
 designingwoman
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 194
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History
McCain and Age
Posted: 8/6/2008 9:28:32 PM
I agree with you 076923. McCain's Paris Hilton ad showed very poor judgement. Also, McCain's irrational behaviors are getting worse as he ages. A long time ago, I liked McCain the maverick. Unfortunately with age, McCain didn't gain wisdom. He instead became a toadie for Bush and its minions.

Obama is young, very smart, and definitely more up to taking the stresses of the Presidency than McCain.

GO OBAMA!!
 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 196
McCain and Age
Posted: 8/6/2008 11:24:51 PM
You know, now that I think about it, I've been out of the pop culture circle for a while. But are Spears and Paris still celebrities today? I thought the new scene was dominated with Billy Rae Cyrus' kid, the younger Lohan and Spears or something. I remember hearing something about a photo shoot on cracked yesterday. Anyway, are Spears and Paris still A-list celebs, or is he out of touch with today's latest celeb gossip too?
 ManeRider
Joined: 5/22/2005
Msg: 198
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History
McCain and Age
Posted: 8/6/2008 11:50:15 PM

7. Said that he wasn't very familiar with economics. Then got an economic advisor that indicated that our current poor economic status was all our imagination and that we were just a bunch of whiners.

It's a psychogical recession we're in.
Think. We just need to re-think our economy to be better.
 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 199
McCain and Age
Posted: 8/7/2008 10:06:24 AM
I'm pretty sure we can think away massive job loss, globalization, deflation of the dollar, and massive government debt if we try hard enough.

I'll make a deal with you. You think about willing it away, I'll think up solutions.
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 201
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History
McCain and Age
Posted: 8/7/2008 10:22:38 AM
Wow, so, we should all go work for McDonalds or Wal Mart and shut up?

Never mind that real inflation has gone up 25% during the past 7 years, but wages have gon DOWN. Never mind that salaries have failed to keep pace with interest rates. Never mind that Tax breaks for the wealthy have concentrated the wealth and reduced the money supply. Never mind that an average of 50,000 jobs are LOST each month under their stewardship. We should just shut up and scrape by, it is the American way, unless you are wealthy.

Ignorance is bliss I guess.
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 203
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History
McCain and Age
Posted: 8/7/2008 10:37:05 AM
This is the problem with people who believe in Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations." A lot of people cite AS's work as the epitome of economic theory. It was written in 1776, when industry was first blossoming. Moreover, few of those people have ever read "Of Justice and Beneficence." Had they read his earlier work, they would see that he was misguided on human compassion. He believed, incorrectly, that wealthy people care what poor people think of them. That, because of this compassion, they would be compelled to take care of their employees. Wal Mart is a primary example of this false supposition.

If companies did their best to make sure their employees could earn a decent living, all would benefit. Because they don't, society is forced to step in, or business cycles occur. Capitalism destroys itself with the concentration of wealth. You only have two options, social programs or Laisez Faire. One saves Capitalism, the other allows it to collapse. There is no choice C.
 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 204
McCain and Age
Posted: 8/7/2008 11:06:30 PM
Smith also had never envisioned incorporation. As soon as a "company" is created, it negates the whole guiding principle behind supply and demand. For supply and demand to work people have to be able to enter and exit markets freely to ensure competition. I'd like to see anyone alive today decide to start an oil company and compete on an even playing field with ExxonMobil or BP. Most nations on the planet couldn't pool their entire populace and all resources they possess into one pool, they still couldn't fight the oil company.

The idea of supply and demand is that if somebody charges too much money for oil, I should be able to go out and dig in my backyard. Then I could supply it cheaper, so people would by from me. Then they would have to cut prices. And so on. Unfortunately, there is a prohibitively high barrier to entry. So, the market cannot adjust itself properly.

Beyond that, we have actually known for a while that Smith's theory actually "right" from a theoretical economics perspective. The prisoners' dilemma is an excellent parallel that could help explain Nash's theory on the topic. It boils down to this: just because something is at an equilibrium, doesn't mean that it's the only one, nor does it mean its the best one. Additionally, it could be mutually beneficial to jump to another intersection, but taking steps to get there, would be worse.

Smith also didn't take into account the idea that there would be "people" who worked for almost nothing and consumed nothing at all. The assembly line has made it significantly cheaper for labor to be performed. Supply and demand requires every one to do what is in their best interest. It is in a company's best interest to use machines if they are cheaper than people. This means that after the industrial age began, we'd have to have a fairly substantial decrease in population to maintain the standard of living. However, that didn't happen. We created enough new jobs by expanding what we produced. Unfortunately, we decided to stop increasing production a while ago and technology improved. Now there just isn't enough demand for people. Therefore we need a pretty big die out of the poor before we can get a stable economy again.
 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 207
McCain and Age
Posted: 8/8/2008 10:24:20 PM
Just for the record, Obama isn't even in the top 5 youngest presidents. On top of that, some of our best like Teddy Roosevelt, JFK, Grant, Cleavland, and Clinton were all younger than him.

And I know older people who could run this country far better than anyone running. My lot's owner, for example. He's a farmer, former soldier, kinda religious guy, and apparently doing pretty well while still doing what he loves. He may not know too much about the political game, and I don't agree with all his positions, but his outlook would make him a good president. He also is able to manage a farm, a family, and a trailer park with skill and compassion.

McCain is not on the list of old people like him that could be president. He's on the list of people like my friend Robert's grandmother. Functional, free, and fine for most reasons, but in an elderly community. They have nurses and doctors on staff, keep an eye on them, but for the most part they are living on their own and just spend alot of time hanging out with other old people. Sometimes she forgets her medicine, or will fall down. She isn't quite all the way up there, but most of the way. There's nothing wrong with her, but I wouldn't want her to be president. I wouldn't mind her taking over the Betty Crocker recipe department though.
 ManeRider
Joined: 5/22/2005
Msg: 208
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History
McCain and Age
Posted: 8/8/2008 11:01:10 PM

It's psychological to refuse to take minimal paying jobs to meet bills and see the businesses have to outsource because the People here refuse to take certain threshold pay.
I have to laugh at that post because it clearly isn't anything remotely close to reality, but I've come to expect that from 'some ' posters. IT's evident after reading that chit that people have brought all this on by themselves, and our corporate greed mongers played no part in this abysmal mess we're in. People, at some point in time, had a certain disposable income, with which they made those decisions. But, according to that post, they should have planned their choices in advance, taking into account all the global conflict, with respect to Iraq, OPEC putting a vice grip on their gas gouging, which has doubled, and our present administration ignoring the situation- they're supposed to just know all that ahead of time. My, perhaps you should let others use your crystal ball more often. However, considering this is probably one of the worst economic times in our lifetimes, and with more homes in foreclosure than in new home sales, I'd have to give the majority of people the benefit of the doubt. They couldnt' possibly know what was around the corner.

Ignorance is bliss I guess.

Thanks Ex.

I'm pretty sure we can think away massive job loss, globalization, deflation of the dollar, and massive government debt if we try hard enough.
I'll make a deal with you. You think about willing it away, I'll think up solutions
If only
 designingwoman
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 209
view profile
History
McCain and Age
Posted: 8/9/2008 12:36:45 PM
Nice post, Exodus, on the Wealth of Nations!!

Age does not reveal a person's level of maturity. McCain may be old but he acts more like a junior high school bully. The singing of Bomb, bomb bomb Iran and the Paris Hilton ad shows that despite advanced age, John McCain is very immature. His policies are the same as Bush that has resulted in the abovementioned job losses, deflation of the dollar and huge deficits. It is not wise to vote for more of the same.

I hate to say this, but I know someone who is five years old who is more mature than John McCain!! The child is very proper, sweet, kind, and knows the difference between right and wrong. He also does not tease others to upset them or act out in other negative ways. It's a sad state of affairs when a mere child is more mature than one of the contenders for the Presidency of the United States!
 StrangerInTheHouse
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 210
McCain and Age
Posted: 8/10/2008 7:38:24 PM
I agree that it is indeed not McCain's age, but his inconsistency and inability to develop linear thought patterns on issues which disqualify him as good presedential material. He can't remember from day to day what happened... or what he said last time.
 Strongdad
Joined: 6/9/2007
Msg: 211
McCain and Age
Posted: 8/10/2008 7:42:56 PM
I hear Obama is in Hawaai. I have to ask....does he think Hawaai is the 56th state of the US, or the 57th? Linear thought, indeed.

SD
 flyonthewall!
Joined: 3/31/2008
Msg: 212
McCain and Age
Posted: 8/10/2008 8:01:57 PM
It must be the 58th or 59th. Obama said he had been to 57 states except Hawaii and Alaska.
 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 214
McCain and Age
Posted: 8/10/2008 9:02:45 PM
What about the fact that he's already tired after a few weeks of campaigning? He is complaining that he needs more sleep. I'm pretty sure that's age related...


McCain said he would concentrate on getting more sleep when he can.
"If I put in three or four 18-hour, 20-hour days in a row, I'm not sharp . It's just a fact," the Republican senator from Arizona said. "I'm more sharp if I get a little rest."
McCain said he feels best sleeping until 7:30 or 8 a.m., as opposed to his usual morning drill of rising at 5:30 or 6 a.m.
"It seems to help me to get up a little later in the morning," he said, joking, "Sorry to bother with that intimate detail."

http://www.jedreport.com/2008/08/john-mccain-say.html

The presidency isn't exactly a sometimes job. In crises in the past other presidents will wind up literally going days without any sleep at all. They have to still be on the ball for all of them. They can't take off weekends (like McCain does) or be incapable of the occasional all nighter.
 Strongdad
Joined: 6/9/2007
Msg: 215
McCain and Age
Posted: 8/10/2008 9:06:10 PM
Um. Last I checked, Obama took some R and R, too. I know McCain has been working 18 hour days, for years. More than a lot of normal people can or could do. Even some in these forums.

Good grief. Talk about spin.

SD
 flawedbutfun
Joined: 6/19/2007
Msg: 217
McCain and Age
Posted: 8/11/2008 8:47:04 AM
I like McCain, I would have voted for him 8 years ago over Gore. But since then at least three things have changed 1) he is 8 years older and not as sharp as he was, you can see it every day in his campaign appearances, too many mistakes and confused moments, 2) his stance on IRAQ, that we are in there forever, and 3) he has moved from his moderate position to coddle the right wing for votes, I liked him when he stood up for what he believed and did not try and get in tight with the diehard right wingers (i.e. christian, etc).
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