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 mjinict
Joined: 8/13/2008
Msg: 426
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Women's Financial StatusPage 18 of 27    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27)
It can take years and years to recover from the financial devastation of dividing a household.
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One could argue that both parties can come out better financially after sharing a dwelling for years...

As one who has been self supporting for 25 years, marrying and divorcing young, I guess I can't personally relate to divorce horror stories. Live and learn, but not let bitterness interfere with future relationships.
 Welsh474
Joined: 9/13/2010
Msg: 427
Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/16/2012 10:52:41 AM
I don't know if anyone is letting "bitterness interfere with future relationships" - it's a matter of reality. This may have been something you dealt with 25 years ago, I never dealt with it as I'm widowed - but many folks on here are still dealing with it or have dealt with it in the last few years so it's a wound that may have scabbed over, but not fully healed. I have not gone through it but I see it daily in my office, I read it daily in the forums and I have friends that have divorced - so although I have no personal experience, I have empathy.

To me it's like the folks posting on the threads regarding "would you marry a widow", some folks that have buried a spouse have no desire to do it again. My outlook is different, I look at it as there are no guarantees, all of us come with an expiry date - I survived the death of a spouse once and I can do it again so I am not afraid of what "may" happen. And, some folks that had a messy divorce have no desire to jump in again...at least not for awhile and not without protecting themselves. I get it.
 amethyst10616
Joined: 7/23/2009
Msg: 428
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Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/16/2012 11:09:50 AM
I also do not think anyone is allowing bitterness interfere with future relationships. It is a matter of reality, as Welsh says.

I recovered from my divorce, but have not mingled my finances since. I have no horror story about being taken for granted or coming out of my divorce penniless. Two households can live more cheaply than one, but contributions often need to be done proportionately due to disparity in incomes. I would not remarry without a pre-nup to protect my retirement account and my equity in my home.
 Fleuron
Joined: 8/18/2010
Msg: 429
Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/16/2012 11:17:09 AM

Most guys I have met do not think that way. Money is a big issue and they are not afraid to ask what my income is on the first date.......


I’d laugh in his face and walk out on his rude ass.

I had to clean this up from what I REALLY wanted to say.
 Iona_Bob
Joined: 3/31/2012
Msg: 430
Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/16/2012 11:21:39 AM
I find it rather embarrassing that in the last couple of pages, the people who announced 1) they would expect their Mate to understand if they can't afford something and 2) their mate should foot the bill as the higher income earner are both ... (wait for it) ... WOMEN!

There is also some defensiveness and even an attempt to put down hypothetical men who may seek someone with similar assets (however, I agree with Fleuron, that regardless of gender, asking about income is about the rudest tactic imaginable).

It is ironic that the same posters do not offer any scenario that would reflect them supporting, or being amenable to, a man earning less than she does.

Amazing in this era, that the assumption is women will marry "up."

Anyway, I hope to be able to care for myself for the rest of my life, whether I have a mate or not.

Clearly, a number of responses make it clear that some women still look to men for their financial comfort, even if they claim they are only motivated by love ( I don't see them fantasizing about marriage to a starving artist).


I'm glad there are still men out there who aren't so suspect and judgemental about women's incomes and motivations. I just don't understand the women out there who condone that way of thinking.


What does "condone" that way of thinking mean? I have never been under the impression that a guy I met was "suspect and judgemental about women's incomes and motivations."

WOW, this is a first. Most guys I have met do not think that way. Money is a big issue and they are not afraid to ask what my income is on the first date.......very dissapointed in the over 55 years old men. What is wrong with having a great relationship without basing it on money.

I have to ask, as I did in an earlier thread, Where DO you meet these fine specimens of masculine virility?

vvv Amethyst - I am not referring to you, at all.
 amethyst10616
Joined: 7/23/2009
Msg: 431
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Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/16/2012 11:31:43 AM
I do not expect to marry up, I do expect to find someone in the same financial ball park. I work in education, so I am not a six-figure earner. I cannot support someone in my golden years who has no retirement and who is totally dependent on our social security system. It highly unlikely it will be there in ten years when I will be at retirement age.

Having said that, women typically do not make as much as men do. Most of us will marry up simply because men are paid more, at least in the US.
 mjinict
Joined: 8/13/2008
Msg: 432
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Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/16/2012 3:13:18 PM
If I marry, I will marry up, if that's how you want to put it. It doesn't take that much, income wise.. And not ashamed to say it.
 mjinict
Joined: 8/13/2008
Msg: 433
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Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/16/2012 3:21:37 PM
What does "condone" that way of thinking mean? I have never been under the impression that a guy I met was "suspect and judgemental about women's incomes and motivations."
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Maybe you have missed some of the posts from men who don't want involvement unless it is a 50/50 deal all the way financially.
 Wild_man_in_the_woods
Joined: 8/19/2011
Msg: 434
Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/16/2012 7:09:42 PM
Solvent (assets exceeding liabilities). Able to live within or preferably slightly beneath means. Most important is being able to be happy without measuring by spending, or always wanting something more (possessions, experiences) than whatever one has and can and should already be grateful for.

And intent upon and competent at staying that way.

I no longer take any of this at all for granted, having had relationships with a couple of people who were indeed nice, smart, deep, and full of good qualities but turned out to be tornado spendmonsters who couldn't let a dollar sit still before spending it, leaving it a constant source of stress in terms of mounting debt and worries about meeting basic expenses.
 Wild_man_in_the_woods
Joined: 8/19/2011
Msg: 435
Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/16/2012 10:14:06 PM
LilyBeyaz wrote:

[The [people] I met who were hoping to adopt my lifestyle through being with me were able to ‘take care of themselves,’ but not at the level of lifestyle they wanted to attain though me.]

Boy did you encapsulate a lot with that one.

A number of women I have been with have been capable of 'taking care of themselves on some level' prior to their becoming involved with me, but then took for granted that I was supposed to give them a higher lifestyle (my lifestyle is not lavish and has no financial room for frills, but is secure and has lots of simple but very enjoyable aspects) while I carried all the major overheads-- and they assumed that, overheads off of their worry list, they could what they earned on impulsive non-necessity lifestyle things, and in several cases, kept going deeper into unsustainable consumer debt.

I don't go into any romantic involvement with the aim of it boosting my lifestyle, but it sure needs to not be a liability and a stressor.
 Iona_Bob
Joined: 3/31/2012
Msg: 436
Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/16/2012 11:26:16 PM

If I marry, I will marry up, if that's how you want to put it. It doesn't take that much, income wise.. And not ashamed to say it.



Maybe you have missed some of the posts from men who don't want involvement unless it is a 50/50 deal all the way financially.


So, you will marry, only if you marry someone who is financially "better off" than you.
However, you are offended if men set parameters on the financial suitability of women with whom they choose to get involved.

O.K. Perhaps you just can't see the hypocrisy in such a perspective.
 mjinict
Joined: 8/13/2008
Msg: 437
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Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/16/2012 11:54:42 PM
I didn't say I was offended, to each their own. I'm just glad there are intellegent men like Sciencetreker and Abelian who get it, and don't think a woman is not worthy because she doesn't earn as much.
 JAXDiver
Joined: 6/4/2011
Msg: 438
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Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/17/2012 4:36:49 AM

I got to the US when I was already 27 y.o. with almost no English. It obviously took me some time to learn the language and get adjusted to the American culture. As a result I have a good job now and a mortgage that is relatively new, and life in San Francisco is not cheap. So, I have to budget my expenses to stay on track, and can’t afford many things that those men can. I ended up being financially undesirable in their eyes Well, I still think that I did well...regardless of what they think...

The expense to live in San Francisco Bay area is exorbitant! I lived in Fremont for a while and found the housing prices shocking. Now, with the real estate value turn-down, it must be extra tough on those who bought at the 2004-2005 highs. I believe you have done very well. Finding someone with whom to share your space and those expenses woulds be quite beneficial. At the very least he should be able to cover your vacation costs.
 Welsh474
Joined: 9/13/2010
Msg: 439
Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/17/2012 6:23:37 AM
""I didn't say I was offended, to each their own. I'm just glad there are intellegent men like Sciencetreker and Abelian who get it, and don't think a woman is not worthy because she doesn't earn as much.""

I don't recall anyone saying "a woman is not worthy", they were saying that they wanted someone on the same financial footing as them. There is nothing wrong with wanting a 50/50 financial relationship. It doesn't make them selfish or unintelligent. And it certainly doesn't make someone "intelligent" because they don't seem to care about a partner's financial status.

It seems that you don't "get it", people have different preferences or requirements within a relationship, one is not right or wrong.

And Mjinct, would you "marry down" or even date someone who makes less than you?
 Paderic
Joined: 2/23/2010
Msg: 440
Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/17/2012 7:04:47 AM
I prefer to call it an equitable sharing of expenses, not a 50/50 split. I realize that it's unlikely (but not impossible) that I will meet a woman who earns as much as (or more than) I do, so the important thing to me is that we can enjoy each others company without one having to subsidize the other.

For dating, it's not that big of a deal. For a marriage or long term cohabitation, it is.
 mjinict
Joined: 8/13/2008
Msg: 441
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Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/17/2012 7:47:28 AM
No, I wouldn't marry someone who makes less than me. The bar is not that high though, unfortunately. But that's a far cry from being a golddigger. I wouldn't expect a higher quality lifestyle.

 amethyst10616
Joined: 7/23/2009
Msg: 442
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Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/17/2012 8:25:34 AM
I like what the previous poster said about equitable sharing of income. I think it one partner makes 100K, and the other partner makes 50K. sharing the expenses on a proportionate basis is fair. Emotionally, the one with the higher income needs to know that the reason their partner is with them is for love, not for what they can do for them.

I am in education, so I do not make a big income. I will say, that I do have more money than some men due to their commitments to their first families. So, even if a man makes $100K, if he is paying CS of $1500, and alimony of $1200, his take home pay might be equal to mine or even less. What about it a person is helping their kid through college or helping an aging parent? There are many things that affect the bottom line in disposable income and that too, needs to be considered.

Bottom line is, you know if your lifestyles are compatible from conversations and displays of income such as cars, homes, and spending habits that are visible to everyone. If someone has deep debt due to medical illness that is different from credit card debt for vacations. It still has to be paid back, but it does show how financially responsible someone is, IMO.

One thing that two couples that I know of in real life are in discord about, are parent loans for college. I am talking about $50-100K loans that have to be repaid. We all want to help our kids get through college, but that too is a major expense that needs to be discussed because student loan payments can be garnished from wages if you do not make the payments. They cannot be discharged in bankruptcy either.

Recently, a couple that I know of and who are madly in love, talked about marriage. She asked him for his credit report, and he balked. They went for some counseling and eventually, he did give in. They have set down and made a budget for all that needs to be done to repair his credit. She will not marry him until he gets his life together. They want to buy a house, but only she has credit good enough to qualify for a loan. Insurance rates are tied to your credit report as well. She is going to marry him, and he loves her so much that he is willing to make this all work. They have transparency now, before the wedding, and in my opinion, have a far better shot of making it work forever.

Relationships at our age are not just about whether the moon and the stars are aligned; they are far, far more complicated. Just as our bodies are a reflection of our exercise and diet choices, our financial health is largely a sum of our choices as well.
 Wonder5750
Joined: 1/30/2012
Msg: 443
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Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/17/2012 8:37:24 AM
Seems its all part of the get to know each other process. I think the one thing to remember is don't rush into anything. Take your time, and really get to know a person.

It seems its not how much you make, but how much importance you put on it all. Its very telling to see a person with charged up credit cards living beyond their means, just as its harsh to see folks sitting on bank accounts like a dragon hords his gold. Its like a sliding scale, and you just have to be slid to the same spot.. sort of.
 Welsh474
Joined: 9/13/2010
Msg: 444
Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/17/2012 10:01:00 AM
""No, I wouldn't marry someone who makes less than me.""

I think Kayla called it on this one. The hypocracy of it all is laughable. I just don't know why a person would have parameters set up for who they date yet don't comprehend someone else doing the same. To me that is an unrealistic and juvenile expectation.

""Relationships at our age are not just about whether the moon and the stars are aligned; they are far, far more complicated."' Amethyst - bang on with this statement. Sometimes reality sucks and other times it's a non issue. We all have preferences, we're all entitled to preferences, as long as they are realistic, within reach, doesn't send out the "it's all about me" signal and shows respect for a potential partner.
 mjinict
Joined: 8/13/2008
Msg: 445
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Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/17/2012 10:57:58 AM
To me the difference is need...I don't think a household can be run very well financially with mine plus another's lesser income. As opposed to someone who makes good money along with my contributions.
 Iona_Bob
Joined: 3/31/2012
Msg: 446
Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/17/2012 11:33:54 AM
To me the difference is need...I don't think a household can be run very well financially with mine plus another's lesser income. As opposed to someone who makes good money along with my contributions.


This perspective discounts the fact that the more prosperous person's household may be running at a level that a person who is not contributing significantly would only bring "down."

A man who is accustomed to vacationing several times a year, for example, may consider the "contributions" of a person with a large discrepancy in wages to be a deficit if he is forced to foot the bill for items that were out of her reach prior to their involvement. It could very well mean that instead of enjoying 3 or 4 vacations per year, he can now only go once or twice, since he is paying for TWO.

You said this earlier:

MSG 486: Being self-sufficient leading to a financially contributing partner should be a no-brainer. But being able to pay for expensive vacations while living separately is not doable for me. So not expecting my guy to pay my tab, expensive vacations are out of the question for me as long as I'm single, which is fine.


It sounds as if you think you would be able to "afford" expensive vacations if you had a combined household.

But then you claimed:
 mjinict

Joined: 8/13/2008
Msg: 499 (view)
 
Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/15/2012 9:11:26 PM
I just don't think one should assume the lesser of two earners has ulterior motives about entitlement..One who makes a more meager income could be more financially responsible than one with a higher one.


I like Wild_man_in_the_woods' observation:
A number of women I have been with have been capable of 'taking care of themselves on some level' prior to their becoming involved with me, but then took for granted that I was supposed to give them a higher lifestyle (my lifestyle is not lavish and has no financial room for frills, but is secure and has lots of simple but very enjoyable aspects) while I carried all the major overheads-- and they assumed that, overheads off of their worry list, they could what they earned on impulsive non-necessity lifestyle things, and in several cases, kept going deeper into unsustainable consumer debt.

I don't go into any romantic involvement with the aim of it boosting my lifestyle, but it sure needs to not be a liability and a stressor.

 Paderic
Joined: 2/23/2010
Msg: 447
Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/17/2012 11:54:18 AM

I don't think a household can be run very well financially with mine plus another's lesser income. As opposed to someone who makes good money along with my contributions.


Sounds like a meal ticket to me...
 largo2
Joined: 12/13/2011
Msg: 448
Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/17/2012 1:14:42 PM

To me the difference is need...I don't think a household can be run very well financially with mine plus another's lesser income. As opposed to someone who makes good money along with my contributions.



Well how the hell do you run your household now? *scratches head
 Iona_Bob
Joined: 3/31/2012
Msg: 449
Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/17/2012 1:55:28 PM
Mjinict - I hope, at some point, you will see that I am not trying to tell you that you aren't within your rights to pursue a relationship that will benefit you financially. At least you are honest and open about it. What bothers me is the double standard applied to men that wish to find a partner of the same financial status.

I guess I was hoping that even if women still feel like men should "support" them at some level (whether directly, or by subsidizing such things as vacations, etc.), that today's woman is open minded enough to allow men the freedom of choice in their mating pre-qualifiers. Calling men names such as "snob" is an attempt to shame them into their "god-given role" of provider.


I agree with Albatross. A man who makes a lot of money that expects the same in a mate sounds like a snob. Not for me.


This is ironic given the self-description of the poster who claims it is not harder for a man to earn more than her. Therefore, it would be unlikely she would even have a choice about her ability to attract "a man who makes a lot of money that expects the same in a mate."

Now mjinict, read the following post you wrote and try to consider it from the standpoint that a man who cares for you would want a commitment, though he makes less than you. Do you see the "liability" it would represent?

Now that I'm older, I feel like I have too much to lose".
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Such a sad commentary. As Mary Jane said, trapped by their own "security".

Maybe I'm naive, but I really don't see how much can be lost by a late life marriage. I'm certainly not interested in taking someone's possessions he worked his whole life for. If I ever get married again, it's going to be permanant.


Your statements appear to be candid, but they are framed solely from a perspective that the lesser earner (you) should be allowed to benefit from marriage to a person with more significant assets, while at the same time mocking those who would be concerned about insulating their future income source. You make a denigrating statement about people who would "protect their own security," while simultaneously advocating for another person to supply yours.

Please pursue whatever avenue of attaining your own financial security you please, but kindly refrain from belittling those who wish to ensure their own financial future by avoiding a situation that becomes a liability or selecting their partners based on attributes that are commensurate with their long term goals, romantically and otherwise. I would NOT partner with a mate who could not measure up to certain intellectual standards. I think others are entitled to set their own limits in other arenas (including finances).
 mjinict
Joined: 8/13/2008
Msg: 450
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Women's Financial Status
Posted: 6/17/2012 4:58:10 PM
Sounds like a meal ticket to me...
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Reminder, I have been feeding myself just fine on my own for 25 years now. I would not expect lavish vacations if I were married. Luckily I am dating a man who does ok financially but is conservative in his lifestyle so vacations and entertainment are not really an issue with us. He doesn't mind the fact that I don't earn as much as he, and he believes me to be financially responsible. I am just glad he judges me by that and not my income. It may seem hypocritical to some but if I can do better than someone who makes $12.00 an hour, why shouldn't I? And yes, maybe it is steeped in traditional roles on some level....I don't mean to mock others, I just think they may be limiting their choices by being so stringent in their requirements. You cannot deny the two very different schools of thought from the male posters here. And just because a man connects with a woman with a similar income it doesn't ensure a happy, cohesive life.
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