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 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 4
Is it really a huge societal change?Page 2 of 3    (1, 2, 3)
People have such a hard time getting into good, healthy relationships b/c...they aren't all that healthy mentally.

By that, I mean they don't know themselves that well. There are plenty of choices they can make, in identifying themselves by now-affordable material goods, in hobbies and passions, or they can escape identifying themselves by constantly re-inventing themselves--one personality on the Internet, another one in the office, a third at home, etc.

Feminism may have hurt women a little bit, by giving them a bunch of choices over what type of woman they want to be. If you had no idea to begin with...having choices doesn't help. Its like being presented with a bunch of highway access ramps, yet not knowing what city you want to drive to, to spend the afternoon in.
 jm0405
Joined: 7/7/2008
Msg: 11
Is it really a huge societal change?
Posted: 7/29/2008 10:30:09 AM
Kimbo said it perfectly.

If you are complete, you are free to WANT someone. If you incomplete, looking for someone to complete you, you NEED someone and in all high likelihood, you will be codependent and the kind that will suffocate any man that comes your way.
 BaldyisBeautiful
Joined: 3/28/2008
Msg: 12
Is it really a huge societal change?
Posted: 7/29/2008 10:42:08 AM
Your right, it's not easy being as pretty as I am!


*dances into the moonlights singing* "I'm so pretty ... so very pretty"
 BaldyisBeautiful
Joined: 3/28/2008
Msg: 14
Is it really a huge societal change?
Posted: 7/29/2008 11:27:38 AM

Analyzing love to the point of intellectual masturbation.

There is the most truthful thing ever written on these forums. It should be the catch phrase for POF's forums from here to eternity!
 discrete_contact
Joined: 7/18/2008
Msg: 15
Is it really a huge societal change?
Posted: 7/29/2008 11:29:32 AM
In the western world there are so many places you can go for help. Lots of things seems to be organized and working OK. At least OK, more or less. Nothing is perfect. All this happens at the "Community level".
BUT when you go from this level to "personal" level its falling apart. You get into the "dark-zone"...even fuzzy or misty with no "directions" anymore.

In a poorer country people rely more on each other (its a survival thing) and most of the problems are "solved" at personal level, not at the higher levels and for that thing to happen you need SOCIAL skills. Which proves the fact that if you get access to the resources on your own you don't really need others to interfere with your life.
In a developed world everyone is hitting his chest with INDEPENDENCE....but what is "independence"? and how much of it you really need?
People in the western world are getting together when huge things happen and the "community level" is under siege....but not really the personal level.
That's how I see it in a nutshell.
 OutMind
Joined: 2/13/2007
Msg: 17
Is it really a huge societal change?
Posted: 7/29/2008 11:45:07 AM
Women pretty much don't need men anymore. But really, imagine it? Who will pick up your garbage, build your deck, house, pour concrete, hang from a tall building and weld steel while having several fingers crushed? As a society we tend to act as if men are not needed because women can as well reproduce with out them, but realize that somebody has to do all the tough work, all the nasty jobs, all the stinking jobs, all the fighting stuff and doing it with pain, with rejection, and yes with glory, and most of the time that is some stinking dude.

So I don't buy it. Because there are also, along with the Hollywood prima donna types that can't find a decent man, a plethora of women that are happy and would love that stinking, tired, opinionated man. And if anything because one thing a woman craves more than anything, other than her children, is to be held and feel protected and that no matter what that stinking dude will be there for her.
 discrete_contact
Joined: 7/18/2008
Msg: 18
Is it really a huge societal change?
Posted: 7/29/2008 11:50:51 AM

Women pretty much don't need men anymore. But really, imagine it. Who will pick up your garbage, build your deck, house, pour concrete, hang from a tall building and weld steel while having several fingers crushed. As a society we tend to act as if men are not needed because women can as well reproduce with out them, but realize that somebody has to do all the tough work, all the nasty jobs, all the stinking jobs, all the fighting stuff and doing with pain, with rejection, and yes with glory, and most of the time that is some stinking dude


Yes but they don't care how hard you work. They just think they can be on their own.
A good test would be to leave them to do it and see how they perform. Now its at the "movement" level....when men are still around. How can you expect them to be in "your or elses shoes" ? What is percolating to the surface is..."We can do it without men".
 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 21
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History
Is it really a huge societal change?
Posted: 7/29/2008 1:27:53 PM
Most people are average to below average looking, if everyone was pretty it would cease to have any special meaning. Most people desire to couple and/or marry, and most ugly, fat, skinny, homely, even with awful personalities or lifestyles, find someone(s) to be with. Even factoring in homosexuals and asexuals, there is not an even number of people to all have someone out there, so some people really are going to be alone for life or have relationships that never work out.

Add to that, what's a relationship. I know people who call talking online to someone a relationship, and people who get some booty calls a relationship, etc. I know people who think any type of interaction with someone else is a relationship. I don't think of something as a relationship unless you were an actual couple who dated for more than a few months.

Women have gotten more control over their own lives and often don't have to be married to have a decent life, but many of them still get married. I think it's more about world wide coverage of the media, you didn't use to know much outside your own little world, now in seconds you can know of lifestyle across the globe. So it seems to all have changed, when in fact, people mostly are the same, technology changes, but human desires are pretty much what they always were. We tend to act within our own cultures and see what we want as what the norm is. Very few really venture out of their own worlds they grew up in.

If you read the history of sex and relationships you will find that people keep doing the same things, they want to be with someone, they couple, they have babies, they struggle through or break up and they grow old and die.
 discrete_contact
Joined: 7/18/2008
Msg: 23
Is it really a huge societal change?
Posted: 7/29/2008 1:50:35 PM

There is a very fine line between need and want. We think we need to survive, but the fact is that we really want to survive. Thus, as individuals, unless we are truly willing to commit suicide at this moment in time, we want to stay alive.


I don't think we "need" or we "want" to survive. We were not and are not meant to self-distruction, although its possible. in the zone of self-"resignation". (depression is potentialy a blood relative to this)
Its very hard to decide to get rid of yourself and that thing requires a huge "energy" or something or a very big self-reason. Although mother nature makes mistakes, its not specific to create life for self-distruction. If someone does it that's just a symptom not the cause of a huge problem somewhere. I've seen people mixing up the cause with the effect...and vice-versa....
in another nutshell.
 BlahGrim
Joined: 1/29/2004
Msg: 24
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Is it really a huge societal change?
Posted: 7/29/2008 2:56:46 PM
I would agree that relationships are grounded more in wants than needs now. Therefore relationships are not required, only desirable. The drawbacks to changing an existing relationship are fewer because wants impact your life less than needs.

The drawback to starting a new relationship/ending an old relationship is time, emotional investment, and usually money/value. You always provide time and usually value for entertainment. If courtships are entertaining, which they seem to be even if they fall short of fun for many people, then only the emotional investment is really a loss.

It seems like a form of gambling, bet your emotional investment plus excess spent monetary value on three possible outcomes: Meet more of your wants with a new relationship, meet a similiar amount of your wants, meet fewer of your wants.

You would be unwilling to make such a gamble if you valued your emotional investment more than than the chance of increasing your wants being met. Perhaps people have unrealistic views on these odds.

It's making more sense in my mind than on the screen.

Edit: Love and Companionship is a need to be happy and well adjusted. Being happy and well adjusted isn't a need, though.

If you call into question survival itself as a need then you no longer have a definition of need anyways. Things are needed because without them we can't survive.
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 26
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History
Is it really a huge societal change?
Posted: 7/29/2008 3:46:23 PM
Well, I need my sweetie and I am not afraid to say so. I need relationship ... not with just any man walking down the street... I am not discussing NEEDY and DESPERATE... but my human need. And I am blessed to be satisfying this need with this extraordinary man. He and I together are way, way more than either he or I could ever be alone.

I could get into a long dissertation of Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs, but I'm pressed for time today and have already gone though it a zillion times in other threads.

In short: we are a social animal... we need love and belonging. Babies fail to thrive without touch. Yup, give us the basic survival stuff of food, water, shelter and we can live to see next week. Isolate us from human contact and we go stark raving mad. You could call this a "quality of life" issue, but I think of it more as a human potential issue... we reach our greatest potential through relating.

So, sorry for the quick bottom line here... I reject out of hand any argument that we do not need love and belonging.

ok.. yep, we can, to a very large extent, get this from friends and family. There is, however, a significantly different quality to the love and acceptance and connection that we get in a special relationship with the one we love. Love of this sort has a spiritual connection that lifts and energizes us... opens us, sets us free.

Cutting to the chase on my theory of societal change: Well, frankly I think we lost our way. We became individuals and me, me, me... selfish, short sighted and defended. We became our fears and became heavily invested in our egos and protecting ourselves from hurt and disappointment. We increasingly close off and raise barriers... rather than opening up and being compassionate, loving and giving. We see evidence of this with the reduction in number of people who "couple", the rise in divorce rates and even in the reduction in amounts of man hours and money donated to charity. As we have turned our backs on our primary relationships (because we don't need them after all) so to have we turned our backs on the notion of community and charity.

"I don't need a SO I want a SO" is, in my opinion, part of our defensive posturing and increasing isolation. Our extreme fear of appearing needy and of losing our societally blessed status as an Individual. The more we cling to this, the less we appear to be able to love and truly join with another as one. One as an "us" that comprises two individuals who join together.

I've typed this so darn fast, I'm a little out of breath... lol. BTW, Funny Girl, thanks very much for that link... I haven't seen it before and am really looking forward to savouring it.

\/\/ And at the end of this I had fully intended to type... "So how'd I do Marc?" LOL
 BaldyisBeautiful
Joined: 3/28/2008
Msg: 32
Is it really a huge societal change?
Posted: 7/31/2008 10:35:31 AM

So the outcome is kids grow up from broken homes no matter how amicable or otherwise the splitting process is, and they grow up believing that you dont have to make change, compromise, work things out, stick at it when the going gets tough, you just pack a bag and walk away...

I quite disagree epona2. I think if you are able to have an amicable divorce that results in two people not loving each other being able to have a grown up relationship apart from one another, it makes a good example for our children to say "Hey, I don't HAVE to be in a relationship that I don't want to be in." Why should any of us have to endure a loveless relationship and the arguments that ensue from that? Is it not better to come to the realization that either one or both of you are happier by not being together?

Take my own relationship with my ex for example: We never really got along because we got married for all the wrong reasons (pregnancy) but we stuck it out for 14 years "for the kids." During that time we had many, many arguments and I am pretty sure I personally had some high blood pressure due to it. After we both decided we didn't want to take it anymore, we have become the best of friends. She calls me all the time to complain about what here boyfriend has done stupid this week and I get to laugh and thank the gods that I am not in his shoes anymore. We still co-parent our kids and show them through our example that we can have a happy, healthy relationship apart. And the kids don't have to watch us argue all the time. Both their mom and their dad are happier people who have more time to spend with them, the kids, rather then trying to appease a partner that can't be appeased!
 discrete_contact
Joined: 7/18/2008
Msg: 34
Is it really a huge societal change?
Posted: 7/31/2008 2:14:50 PM
I see some women say that they can "really" make it without men because they can do this or that. Fine, perfect.
What do these women tell their boys? sons? if it happens they have one?
Would they say: Hey son...most likely women won't need you anyways so just keep quiet !? Or they would never have a son ? just daughters so it would make more sense then ?...I mean these type of "independent" women they never have sons?

I did not get an answer and I will still ask it, no matter how many threads would be deleted then.
If I get a Decent answer to this one - ligth will come up in my mind like from a 1 milion W bulb.
 discrete_contact
Joined: 7/18/2008
Msg: 35
Is it really a huge societal change?
Posted: 8/1/2008 8:53:46 AM
No "strong independent women" picks up this one? Come on for some "eye-contact".
Please be my guest. Is this "game-set and match" for me? Is it a shot between the eyes?...:-)
 OutMind
Joined: 2/13/2007
Msg: 36
Is it really a huge societal change?
Posted: 8/1/2008 9:03:18 AM

sweetie we do that stuff now also......women are MUCH more independant than you give us credit and the only reason you might not have seen a woman do these things is because the women in ur life have been told they couldn`t and have not tried to learn those skills......watch out once they do.


Yeah, sure. The day that I see a nasty construction site with temperatures in the 110 degrees and the people digging the ditches are ALL women, I will believe the above statement.

Until then, we share the load. And we need and WANT each other.
 discrete_contact
Joined: 7/18/2008
Msg: 37
Is it really a huge societal change?
Posted: 8/1/2008 9:22:47 AM
Men are still around and now you see what they do with "their independence"? They throw it in your face. I would like to see them alone running at least a city of 300.000 people on their own, with no men around.
They do mostly the indoor work and now they got their voice up of how independent they are.
All these depends on the economy. If the economy would go enough down....all these "independence" would fade right away....that's why in Nova Scotia and the east side of Canada say .... people are more friendly...that's an indication. There are not too many well payed jobs there. Does this ring a bell?
 discrete_contact
Joined: 7/18/2008
Msg: 39
Is it really a huge societal change?
Posted: 8/1/2008 10:14:44 AM
The observation may be excellent but INCOMPLETE.
Well yes she goes to the sperm bank...although less and less men want to give out their identity for that reason. (as far as I know if you don't give out your identity you cannot donate...not sure if that changed though)
So lets say she goes to the sperm bank and she ends up having a son. What does she tell him? How does she raise her son? (I mean how would she educate his son in the light of "women independence"?...you know what I mean. I don't reffer here to the material part of providing food and shelter..)
Ladies please be my guest and provide an answer. Don't leave us in the dark. Plug in that 1 milion watt light bulb please

Ccome on..don't be chicken hawks...come on you have the answer spit it out.
 discrete_contact
Joined: 7/18/2008
Msg: 40
Is it really a huge societal change?
Posted: 8/1/2008 11:56:00 AM
I am not hung on this...I want THRUTH, thats'a all. Tons of thruth. I asked because I have a feel that to much stuff is circumstantial. Which is fine, its hard to avoid it.
But it sounded a bit over the edge that....."We don't need man." it sounded very FALSE.
If you guys want men speak up. That's all....need and want have some commonalities but are not the same.....I am ok with your answer.
 SueCat51
Joined: 8/11/2007
Msg: 41
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History
Is it really a huge societal change?
Posted: 8/1/2008 4:00:06 PM
It's more of a perception change than a huge society change. Relationships start with us (as individuals). Today, we are so busy defining our lives by what we DON'T want, versus what we really want. Funny - we keep getting the same crap, when we keep defining our lives by our "don't want" lists. We, as humans today have a hard time saying we're flawed, therefore we expect the perfect partner, the perfect situation, the perfect life. It's all become "my way or the highway". Yet, when you look at the overall picture in the world, technologies, medical advancements, and other great things in life happen because we work with each other. Surviving and/or living, we cannot do it alone, it takes working with each other, so in essence, we do need each other. The key is what do we define as "need" versus "want", again, it comes down to perception.
 silibus
Joined: 4/8/2008
Msg: 42
Is it really a huge societal change?
Posted: 8/1/2008 9:02:20 PM
There are a lot of things that trigger hyper selectivity in humans today. Just to list one is 'abuse'. You certainly could figure out what the rest of those triggers are but that is what keeps a lot of us single.
It would be nice if the ethical and moral codes of society hadn't erroded so much. Today in America and a lot of the rest of the world boys feel they have a right to rape girls. The social pressure is that strong for young kids today.
Something has gone terribly wrong in Eden and those with the power to do something are sitting and laughing at the rest of us. It makes me sick.

I can not imagine what marriage is going to be like for our kids in 20 years. Are husbands going to be pimping their daughters? It happens in third world countries today. I just want happiness. That is my purpose on this planet.
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