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 lumberman03
Joined: 9/13/2007
Msg: 51
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea Page 2 of 13    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13)
Our Militia Acts require every able bodied male (and being the 21st century, we can include women) from ages 18-44 to own a rifle and keep ammunition, and also know how to use them.

Being the 21st century, that means every household should have an M16, ammunition, and each person should be required to qualify with them at least once a year.

We'd be kinda like Switzerland, though they've got the SIG 550 series (which we can't have due to import restrictions, while police can) which are far superior to Eugene Stoner's type of rifle.

(Being an enthusiast I only speculate and quote what I've heard from anyone with SIG rifle experience......)

They didn't have "safe storage", much less gun safes, back when our country was founded. Arms were above fireplaces, left by back doors, in drawers, and generally anyplace where they might be convenient. Such as in a belt or pocket, also.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 52
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/15/2008 11:37:34 AM
I already think EVERYONE is a potential threat to me and would rather take all the legal measures available to me for my defense and those who I care for.
You're on your own.


That's a very "American" viewpoint, that you won't find many people here having.

Most Americans cannot even imagine a city , Canada's second largest Montreal , that in roughly 35,000 man years ( 7,000 officers/five years) of policing - fired one hundred shots.

As to the ability of the police to protect people, let me submit this, for your consideration:


Source: The Geographic Reference Report 2007 (3/2007)

Crime Rates - Selected North American Cities
(per 100,000 population)

Cities Homicides Robberies
Baltimore, MD 43.5 638.5
Detroit, MI 42.1 596.2
Washington, DC 35.8 552.3
Atlanta, GA 25.8 724.6
Philadelphia, PA 22.2 657.4
Dallas, TX 20.1 607.5
Miami, FL 17.9 614.5
Chicago, IL 15.5 552.0
Minneapolis, MN 14.1 597.5
San Francisco, CA 11.6 399.9
Boston, MA 10.5 418.6
Vancouver, BC 3.0 149.0
Hamilton, ON 2.0 39.0
Toronto, ON 2.0 108.5
Montreal, QC 1.5 147.5
Ottawa, ON 1.5 88.0
Sudbury, ON 1.0 53.0
Guelph, ON 1.0 60.0

http://www.2ontario.com/welcome/ooql_602.asp


Again , in reference to Munjo's point about the fear of crime, check out those numbers (even in their highest areas) and how very small a chance anyone has of experiencing those things in their lifetime.

Now Canada has a lot of firearms owners:


Gun Ownership and Crime

A national survey commissioned by the Canadian Firearms Centre in 2000 found an estimated 2.3 million firearm owners.

http://www.canadianembassy.org/government/guncontrol-en.asp


And yet these guns, and the many illegal firearms we have here too, are not being used in anywhere near the same numbers to rob, kill, or to injure fellow Canadians.

Homicide and robbery rates are far lower here, even if the NRA says that this is impossible.

We have street gangs (Crips and Bloods , etc) , illegal drugs, and poverty . We watch the same violent TV shows and movies you do, and we play the same violent video games.

So what's different , and why do we have a society that's far safer ?

Remember, there's no death penalty here for murder, less police officers per capita , and less prison cells too.

And yet ?


The 2004 GSS asked respondents how safe they felt from crime while walking alone in their areas after dark. Possible responses included very safe, reasonably safe, somewhat unsafe, or very unsafe. For the purposes of this study responses were divided into two categories such that experiencing fear of crime was represented by feeling somewhat or very unsafe, and not experiencing fear of crime was represented by feeling very or reasonably safe.

Among the population of urban Canadians aged 15 years and older considered in this study, 18% (representing about 3 million Canadians) indicated that they experienced fear of crime while walking alone in their areas after dark, while the majority (82%) indicated that they did not experience fear of crime in these conditions.

http://www.statcan.ca/english/research/85-561-MIE/2008013/def-en.htm


More than eighty percent of Canadians did not fear walking in their neighborhoods on the street , alone, and after dark.

If you look at Americans, and how the see crime, I'm pretty sure you'd see nowhere near that level of comfort - armed or not.


With about half of Americans currently saying crime is up in their local areas, and about 7 in 10 saying it is up nationally, Americans have a decidedly negative outlook about crime.

The recent increase in negative public perceptions of crime contrasts with actual government crime statistics, which show that rates of violent crime as well as property crime have generally leveled off at extremely low numbers.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/102262/
Perceptions-Crime-Problem-Remain-Curiously-Negative.aspx


And this echoes back to what Munjo was referring to, about the perception of crime being a critical part of all this. Generally, in North America, crime rates have gone down (overall) since their high point in the Seventies. That's due to many things, especially the decline in the youth demographic.


In 1997, the U.S. murder rate was the lowest in 30 years

The primary focus of each Crime in the United States report is the estimated number of crimes reported to law enforcement agencies. While only a portion of all crimes that occur are reported to law enforcement, those that are provide an assessment of the workloads of the criminal and juvenile justice systems.

The FBI estimates that in 1997, 7,726,000 larceny-thefts, 2,461,000 burglaries, 1,354,000 motor vehicle thefts, 1,022,000 aggravated assaults, 498,000 robberies, 96,000 forcible rapes, and 18,200 murders were reported to law enforcement agencies. One would have to go back to 1971 to find a lower annual number of murder victims in the United States and to 1967 to find a lower murder rate (i.e., murders per 100,000 persons in the population).

http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/jjbulletin/9812_2/murder.html


That wonderful world that we older people can recall was actually far more dangerous than it is today, statistically.

And yet, if you look at public PERCEPTION of crime, it far exceeds it's real threat level.

The strange thing is that you can see this same pattern repeating itself in North America and Europe, crossing those barriers of cultural filters almost equally. In almost all cases, crime has decreased (especially violent crime) , but public perception/fear has increased.

That's quite possibly due to an increased media coverage which magnifies the problems in the eyes of it's viewers due to the constant flurry of stories and images.

This leads to more scared people, and more armed people.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 53
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/15/2008 1:19:08 PM
,to reduce crime and it's victims to the fear of the boogeyman is extremely ignorant and indifferent towards the millions of victims and ther families

That is nothing more than a strawman argument and a blatant appeal to emotionalism that is completely divorced from the reality of the point. Carrying a gun has NOTHING to do with sympathy or empathy for victims or their families. It is, however, a typical tactic used to try and remove reality from the debate.

But, nice try.

The reality of it is that only 1/2 of 1 percent (that's 0.5%) of ALL Americans will face a violent crime which endangers their personal safety or life at any given year.

By the same analogy I used with the home invasions that would mean you would need to live two lifetimes in order to need your gun.

That is a very far cry from the "wolves at the door" mentality that is being portrayed by the "I NEED my gun" attitude.

The fact that someone has spent time in another country is of no value to this debate. We are talking about the American Constitution. What another country thinks does not hold one iota of importance.

Hmm... I guess you missed that part about how I am an American, as in "Born in the USA". So I guess my view does have some validity by that standard, huh?

I already think EVERYONE is a potential threat to me

Yes, that was my point and, interestingly, I didn't need you to say that to know it. Funny, huh?

There is a common theme among many Americans that leads them to see anyone who falls outside a given circle as "a threat" that requires being armed against whether that belief is warranted by the facts or not. It's an attitude that can be seen at the national level (where the threat is to "America, our ideals and our values") to the personal level (where anyone outside your immediate family and friends 'who are like family' is automatically a threat).

Many Americans see themselves as 'besieged and beset' at every turn, where everyone who is not them wants to take what they have, where every motive is nefarious and dangerous to them. It is, at times, almost a mass paranoia that rarely bears any real resemblence to any real threat.

The original point of the poster was that seemingly normal and adjusted people were now gun toting,shoot-em-up renegades.

Yes, and we're pointing out WHY that is a very likely and probable outcome to "a gun in every pocket" (especially in densely packed metro areas)
 lumberman03
Joined: 9/13/2007
Msg: 54
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/15/2008 2:11:36 PM
How about putting it like this,
"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away."

That, and the police aren't obligated to aid you. It's been upheld in court that the police aren't responsible for your safety, and if something happens to you, even in front of them while they are watching, they are not liable for it.
 NEKman
Joined: 3/4/2007
Msg: 56
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/15/2008 7:00:07 PM
In Vermont an individual can carry a firearm concealed or openly without any permit. Vermont has an extremely low crime rate.
Firearms are not the real problem.
 EpisodeIV
Joined: 6/28/2006
Msg: 58
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/15/2008 7:14:19 PM

...otherwise law-abiding citizen (it's not as though he were a career criminal or gangster) would not have kept a gun on his person or evidently within reach in his car had he not been allowed to do so legally.


Ummmm... probably half of the people I know have a firearm within reach if not on their person most of the time.

Fists can kill too.

Large SUVs such as Hummers also kill.

Other than the stress and anger management issues, which is a growing problem in the U.S. culture of disposables, I think firearms should be carried in plain view. That way more people will be nicer to others. And maybe those in Hummers, Suburbans, Expeditions and other big personal trucks should be required to get something like a CDL-Lite license or permit with extra emphasis on sharing the road with others and random drug and alcohol tests several times per year.
 EpisodeIV
Joined: 6/28/2006
Msg: 60
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/15/2008 8:13:07 PM
It is particularly silly to try and use metaphors like: murder with bats, or steak knives, or cars to those committed using handguns; it shows ignorance and a real lack of critical thinking about the subject.


It can seem like it should be silly to compare bats, steak knives or cars to handguns. On the other hand, I was threatened with a ball bat once. Not just to be hit by it but... to be killed by it. It didn't seem particularly silly at the time.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 62
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/16/2008 7:25:37 AM
I pulled into a 7-11 and there were 3 "thugs" walking through the parking lot. I went out of my way to avoid them, yet they chose to walk directly in front of my car and talk trash about how I was trying to run them over. They displayed no weapons, but there were 3 of them and 1 of me. In my eyes this was a possible threat since the odds were stacked against me. Had I said anything to them, things could have gotten ugly real quick since they obviously didn't have enough sense to move out of the way of a car.


This is NOT a situation where you need to pull a gun on anyone, and echoes back to the OP's post on the dynamics behind such acts.

One pulls a weapon only when one is intending to use it to protect one's life - or someone else's. One draws a weapon only if there is a high probability of using it, and under no other circumstances.


I have been robbed twice in my life,once at gunpoint.....not much fun.My house has been compromised twice[two different places]so I guess I have done my part to spare others these inconvenient bits of life.


I've lived in Canada for fifty one years now. My neighborhood is a multi-ethnic working class one, and I often walk it's street alone late at night.

In my entire life, I've never been held-up - nor has anyone I know.

I've never had my place broken into, and I know only a couple of people that have had that experience.

The only time I might have been facing someone with a weapon, was when a rather drunk and obnoxious punk tried bumming some money off me going to work. When I refused, he started calling me names and following me.

When I turned around, he reached into his jacket pocket for something.

I reached into mine......and pulled out my cellphone and held it up. I also knew where a police car was taking it's break (about a half block away or so) . He was unaware of that, but I wasn't.

Whatever he had in his pocket, it stayed there, and he walked away.

Had he decided to continue, I would have dialed 911, and retreated to the position of the police car. Had that not been enough to deter him, I do have enough knowledge of how to defend myself (and some normal things on me, that can be used as weapons) to have most likely ended that incident rather quickly in my favor.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 63
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/16/2008 4:18:58 PM

I have witnessed as recently as last night a situation where I wished I were carrying my 357. I pulled into a 7-11 and there were 3 "thugs" walking through the parking lot. I went out of my way to avoid them, yet they chose to walk directly in front of my car and talk trash about how I was trying to run them over.

Wow, three teens thinking that, as pedestrians, they have the 'right of way' and cars have to stop for them not the other way around and talking all tough about it!

Who would have ever guessed?!? That NEVER happens with MOST teens, no sirree, never seen that in my life and not almost every day (even going back 30-40 years).

Had I said anything to them, things could have gotten ugly real quick since they obviously didn't have enough sense to move out of the way of a car.

And, if you had gotten out and started acting all tough with them because they were kids and you thought that as an adult with a car you have priority it might very well have led to a confrontation (who would guess that?), not because they were necessarily in the wrong (they may very well have had the right of way putting you in the position of having to wait for them) but, because you decided to make a big deal out of nothing by getting out and 'puffing your chest'.

Instead, you acted like an adultand didn't make a 'federal case' out of something insignificant (sort of, the way you tell the story makes me think that maybe you wish you had been carrying so that you could have "put the fear of God into those little punks for not waiting for you first").
 TheLimey
Joined: 2/24/2008
Msg: 64
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/16/2008 6:34:28 PM
When seconds count.... the police are just minutes away....

& it's easier to carry a gun because cops are too heavy...
 printer2
Joined: 6/19/2007
Msg: 66
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/17/2008 9:45:59 AM


I have no problem handling the situation with whatever I have at my disposal which includes a 357 magnum.

Why would anyone want to run around with a 357 magnum? A Colt Mustang .380 or a .32 caliber revolver should be enough to persuade wayward souls. And if you had to fire at someone you may actually hit them without a blast of recoil throwing off your aim. Best of all they may end up telling the tale not to mess with a bad dude like yourself.

Not that I am advocating the use of guns, I just think the little ones are cute.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 67
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/17/2008 10:04:41 AM
Just never know who the bad guy is do you?


Ironically, there's a high probability it's someone you already know, and not a stranger. Only about one in five homicides are committed by someone the victim doesn't know.

That means they are already familiar to you, and you won't be as able to defend against them.


On the other hand had I been armed then something as simple as "click click" would be an attention getter and defuse the situation before things got out of hand.


Or several other alternatives might have occurred.

You might have pulled a gun, they would have scattered, and then pulled theirs. Try hitting three rapidly moving targets at night , with only six shots ? God knows what they might have pulled. What if they were wearing bullet proof vests, something that's not impossible today ?

Want to go up against a Mac-10 ?

You might have pulled a gun on three totally innocent teens, too. That might have escalated into something where at least one of them, or you, was dead after it was all over.

For just words ?

Firing a 357 Magnum in an urban environment isn't a good idea either. You will be naturally focused on your target, and not looking at what's behind it. That gun can bring down a bear , and your round will (if you hit your target) probably transit it into whatever is behind it.

Just the muzzle flash alone from your first shot would temporarily reduce your night vision. Your recoil will throw off your aim for the next one, losing more valuable time.

If you miss, God only knows what you will hit.

If it has to be done, it has to be done - but it's best avoided, unless there is a high probability of death or injury.
 printer2
Joined: 6/19/2007
Msg: 69
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/17/2008 1:22:47 PM


do any of you believe that you have a right to protect yourself?

Why do 'punks, drug dealers, criminals carry weapons? To protect themselves. Most people who kill someone really did not mean to. It is just funny how it seems to happen.


Do you not hold the perpetrators responsible for THEIR actions?

Judge, jury, executioner, all rolled in one.


Are you willing to give the "ganasta mentality" free reign?

No. That is why we have police.
 tgfonder
Joined: 7/13/2008
Msg: 70
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/17/2008 1:27:27 PM
Because it is in the second amendment doesn't make it right, necessarily. Those who support the right tocarry concealed guns live a fear-based existence. What a way to live.
 SwampHunter
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 71
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/17/2008 2:28:10 PM
Give someone with misdirected anger ready access to a gun, and bang! You could be dead.


Give someone with misdirected anger aqccess to ANYTHING they can use as a weapon and bang you're dead! They can club you with a bat, hit you in the head with a rock, run you over with a car, or put a steak knife in your back...

The reasoning in this thread is just absolutely bewildering. This is not about killing someone over my TV. This is about defending my home from an invader who has come into my house commit a crime. Do you realistically expect me to believe that he will just take my TV and go in peace? What's to stop him from murdering me, or raping my daughter? The criminal's own personal code of ethics?

Well, I don't know about you, but I think I'd rather put my trust in Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson!

Mark
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 73
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/17/2008 4:33:40 PM

The reality of it is that only 1/2 of 1 percent (that's 0.5%) of ALL Americans will face a violent crime which endangers their personal safety or life at any given year.

While I presume this was made as an argument against the need for concealed carry, it is also an argument against the need for strict gun control laws. What fraction of a percentage of Americans will experience what the OP describes?
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 74
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/17/2008 6:24:01 PM

Why don't you like firearms?

Is it because they can kill?

Is it because they can help someone kill, or are used too frequently to settle arguments?

Is it that unless you have a badge, you shouldn't be allowed to make decisions that will effect yours, and possibly everyone around you, lives?

Or is it that untrained individuals shouldn't use lethal methods to defend themselves when tasers and mace are acceptable alternatives?

Those are elements for many but, the primary element for most (in my experience) is the overwhelming stupidity (and I don't mean intelligence but, lack of reasoned, rational thought) among so many 'antis' (as evidenced by the volume of posts that consist of some simple-minded 'bumpersticker slogan' as a rationale. Don't think about it, don't view it rationally, just fall back on trite, meaningless, 'feel good' sloganeering).

I don't know about you but, I don't want people who rely so heavily on emotionalism over rationalism to be anywhere near me with a firearm (my innocent bystander status is no shield from stupidity and I don't want to HAVE to have a gun just to protect myself from some other law-abiding citizen with no sense beyond "Yee-haw, Rambo time").
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 75
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/18/2008 8:43:46 AM

I'm totally with you on that one. But I don't think it's right to punish the many of us who do rationalize for the few people who do think that way...


If the people who are most vocal about "standing up for the 2nd Amendment" use slogans to justify unsafe policies, and it leaves an impression that gun advocates in general are rabid idealogues without much sense, that is the impression they convey.

If you are a gun advocate who does not appreciate that impression, it is up to you to dispel it. It is not up to the rest of us to dismiss the impression that your allies give us.

But it was the NRA who came up with the most idiotic slogan ever coined, "guns don't kill people, people do." If that were the case then we wouldn't need to issue rifles to every soldier going off to war, now would we?

And let me ask you this: Is there anyone in the US Military who walks around on base with a gun that has not been checked out of a safe storage locker, and whose ammunition is not logged and accounted for? If the people whose profession is handling guns recognize that they are inherently dangerous, why can't you all?

Because, as with our STBE President, you believe that honestly admitting any point that might go against your position, even if that point is OBVIOUS, is taken as an admission of weakness--even if that point is TRUE.

But the issue of guns isn't about YOU, it's about SAFETY.

Are we safer with them or without them? That's the issue. And a responsible person won't care which way it falls out.

Personally, I believe that we'd all be safest if gun safety were taught in the schools--which are supposed to equip us to be informed and responsible citizens. Yet here is a right that we claim to cherish, and none of us knows enough about it to do anything more than sling absurd slogans at each other.

The stupidity of this entire debate is disgusting, and the fact that the debate hasn't advanced beyond, "yes they do no they don't" in the course of my lifetime is just ridiculous.

Why don't you all just shut the F up for a minute and think it through. Get _honest._ Guns are dangerous. So are ciminals. So are governments. How do we strike the right balance among these dangers to maximize our safety and that of our descendents?
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 76
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History
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/18/2008 9:44:33 AM
I don't have a problem with guns at all. I'd never support a ban on them, not even on handguns. Because of where I live, and the society I live in, I agree with the types of gun control laws we have here - and that's not possible in the same way there, for some very valid reasons.

Some say that handguns only exist to kill people. I disagree, and people do collect them or target shoot with them - which are valid reasons to own one.

Were I able to store a firearm at a gun club (I don't want one in my apartment) , I might own one too. I might even think of getting one if I lived in some remote area, where it might be needed for various good reasons.

I'm not even against the concealed carry laws there, believe it or not.

I would feel a lot better if the training and level of expectation of all such legally armed citizens be a lot higher though. In my mind they should have a level of training ( and regular practical time on the range) that equals a peace officer - and be vetted to see if they meet a minimum standard of entry.

Their handguns should be fired, and a forensic sample kept on record for comparison.

They should be trained and tested on the law, and the legal use of their weapons. They should be regularly required to undergo testing sessions, and to spend time on the gun range firing from all possible positions, with both hands - night and day.

I'd throw in drug testing too, on a random basis.

In essence, I'd make them peace officers without badges, in the sense of knowledge of the law and the use of weapons.

Now are these things even possible down there, on a national/state level ?

I'm not sure they are, but it would sure make me feel a lot better about it.

What really throws me is when I see firearm owners who get aggressive on internet forums, and seem ( at least to me) to be looking forward to the day they finally shoot someone.

I'd feel better if they were the calmest people here, honestly.

You may have to kill someone to defend yourself, but I don't think that act (however justified it may be) is something to ever celebrate.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 77
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/18/2008 10:05:07 AM

What really throws me is when I see firearm owners who get aggressive on internet forums, and seem ( at least to me) to be looking forward to the day they finally shoot someone.

I'd feel better if they were the calmest people here, honestly.

You may have to kill someone to defend yourself, but I don't think that act (however justified it may be) is something to ever celebrate.


Exactly. Deadly force is no joke. And when y'all give the impression that you get your rocks off by playing around with devices that project deadly force, you come across as the most irresponsible idiots imaginable. There is no way that I'd trust you with a gun.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 79
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/18/2008 10:23:30 AM

It's surprising we don't hear more of this really.

You're not exactly giving a strong foundation for your case.
 gmain
Joined: 11/4/2004
Msg: 81
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/18/2008 10:28:25 AM
Nothing deters crime more then a known gun owners presence. Sadly, the police, our paid gun owners are also required to wear uniforms and badges all the time, so they are easy for the crooks to spot. Also they are required to arrive in clown cars with lights and stickers all over them, further helping the criminals spot and elude our gun carriers.
And then they are bound by so many civil rights laws, they are basically already in handcuffs when they arrive 15 minutes after the crime.
As was pointed out, there would be no more 10-20 murders by one or two people, they would be mowed down before they got to number 3. The idea of grandma carrying a cannon, will prevent countless crimes against them.
would you break into a gun owners house?
would you pull a gun on a crowd of gun owners?
would you take a knife to a gun fight?
what is the value of baseball bat vs Smith and Wesson?
if your gonna die by a criminals hand, and you have 3 choices, here they are..
beaten to death with lawn rake
stabbed to death with kitchen knife
shot in head with .45
are you sure your gonna want the guns removed from the honest men and women?
I say lets get more of them. the biggest voice against legal gun ownership would have to be those with criminal intent, bleeding hearts with no sense of reality, or crooked governments with eyes on even more control over the population.
All these have one cure, and a lawn rake or kitchen knife is not it.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 82
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/18/2008 12:00:56 PM
Provided people are trained, and have the self-restraint not to go off half****d, I would agree.

However, when people are not trained and display attitudes that make it seem likely they will shoot when upset, I would not agree. Would you?

Far more people are shot by acquaintances or family members than strangers. This suggests that the scenario of an upset person going off on a loved one is much more likely than a crimestopping grandma saving the day.

There are risks with any policy, and those risks all need to be weighed before we make a collective decision. I don't know what the right decision is, but I do know that letting untrained idiots wave guns around is just plain stupid.
 LetsDoFun
Joined: 5/26/2008
Msg: 83
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/18/2008 12:12:24 PM
Fact is more crimes have been prevented and citizens have been able to protect and defend themselves against crime than things like this have occurred. The liberal gun grabbing media simply refuses to report the good side of the gun issue where someone has saved their own or someone elses life/limb/property with a legally possessed firearm. It's time the media went back to reporting the news instead of creating and editing what gets reported.
 SwampHunter
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 85
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/18/2008 12:45:21 PM
Fact is more crimes have been prevented and citizens have been able to protect and defend themselves against crime than things like this have occurred. The liberal gun grabbing media simply refuses to report the good side of the gun issue where someone has saved their own or someone elses life/limb/property with a legally possessed firearm. It's time the media went back to reporting the news instead of creating and editing what gets reported.


EXACTLY!

We see stories in the news almost every single day about crimes being committed WITH a gun, but how often do you see stories about crimes being PREVENTED with a gun?

Mark
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