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 tallskier
Joined: 5/20/2005
Msg: 120
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea Page 4 of 13    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13)

They are taught to be very very careful about how they are handled, stored, and so forth. They can't just draw theirs , on a whim, while on duty.


As people applying for concealed carry permits are taught in most states.

Did you think it was like getting a drivers license or something?
 Eric2008
Joined: 2/17/2008
Msg: 123
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/24/2008 1:19:48 PM
kids and teenagers are cunning. and if they know anybody connected with black market type stuff it becomes really easy.

As true as that is, it is largely irrelevant to the question.

In the vast majority of these cases the weapons used were legally acquired and usually by an adult family member.


Your last statement is patently false.In most cases(as well as the infamous Columbine case) the weapons were illegally purchased by a friend using a false name from an unscrupulous gun dealer.It sounds more and more like you are taking the path of your more famous Canadian brethren Michael Moore and using falsehoods to advance your personal agenda.


*Excuse me? Sorry, you can't unload Michael Moore on us. He was born and raised in Michigan and now lives in NYC. He is as American as Apple Pie, McCarthyism, and the Dearborn Independent. He's all yours and you can have him. We don't want him.* TheMadFiddler - PoF Forum Moderator
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 124
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/24/2008 1:37:25 PM
The statements are factual and you can't prove them wrong, so you attempt to demonize them by calling them "mindless sloganeering".

Saying "If you can't find something (that you lost), you are not looking in the right place" is factual too and you can't prove it wrong.

That doesn't mean it is a valid or intelligent rebuttle or that it accurately represents any real truth about the value or logic of the position. They represent rhetorical tautologies, appeals to probability and circular reasoning (among others).

I'd love to see you prove one of them to be false. I'm referring to proof here - facts and logic, not belief.

And that statement is an "argument from ignorance" fallacy.

They are rhetorical fallacies and that makes them false arguments (and that is "facts and logic", look it up).

They are used to avoid actually addressing the real facts of the issue by serving as little "mantras" that can be accepted without question. Hence, "mindless sloganeering" rather than intelligent discussion.

Happy now?

Your last statement is patently false.In most cases(as well as the infamous Columbine case) the weapons were illegally purchased by a friend using a false name from an unscrupulous gun dealer.

Sorry dude but the one example of Columbine does not make "most" nor prove my statement wrong. I guarantee you that I can list more school shootings that involved legally acquired guns than you can with illegaly acquired guns (don't believe me? do you actually think I would issue you such a challenge if I didn't already know I could prove it? think about that for a minute before you answer but feel free to try and prove me wrong and show that most or even a majority involve illegaly purchased guns because I am ready to answer it. here is one example to counter your example, "E.O. Green").
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 126
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/24/2008 3:45:18 PM

despise antigun people with a passion. Every time I purchase more ammunition to add to my arsenal I picture it being used on these pricks. It calms me down.


Well, that's certainly reassuring.
 printer2
Joined: 6/19/2007
Msg: 127
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/24/2008 3:54:45 PM


In Canada 4 billion has been wasted on a gun registry while shootings have only increased.

Sorry it has only been less than one billion, last real count was half a billion but everyone expects it to hit one billion.

Your statements on shootings is also inflated as they have been dropping since BEFORE the Gun Registry was put in place. We are getting more shootings that are gang and drug related but they generally shoot at each other.
 printer2
Joined: 6/19/2007
Msg: 129
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/24/2008 5:12:42 PM
Bringing it back home, I would like to ask the question. Rather than debate the right to keep arms is there a way to bring your society back from the place where people feel they need to carry weapons to a time guns were left on the gun rack in the window of a truck or the trunk of a car?

I am sure everyone would like to feel safe without having to keep a loaded gun around. Has society moved too far in a direction that no one is safe on the streets? What would have to be done to get people’s attitudes to change that they will not threaten their fellow man?

Is it a poverty issue? Is it the result of drugs. Has video games or Hollywood caused life to be viewed so cheaply that the taking of one is second nature to some? What can we do to stop this?
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 130
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/24/2008 6:59:31 PM

There is one salient difference between a stick of dynamite and a gun. The dyanite wasn't designed specifically to kill people.


Nor was the firearm.


Come on, S. You know that's spurious. I'm glad you've had fun with your target practice, but tell me that never once did you picture a human torso around that bull's eye.

Nonsense argument do not lend much credence to the case against more restrictive gun laws. The practice and training that you cite do.

But no one ever got very far pretending that those who disagree with them are idiots.
 Lady Laugh
Joined: 2/18/2006
Msg: 132
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/25/2008 9:43:55 AM
Personally I think it is sad that people in the states feel the need to carry a gun. I didn't realize that living in the U.S. was so scary that people needed to arm themselves. Lady harley rider there are other ways to defend yourself then a gun. I know I was a victim of a home break in.Personally I'd rather take my chances with a baseball bat then possibly having a gun taken from me,potentially used on me and then to turn up in a teenager's hand as they fire on a bunch of classmates. I'm not saying we don't have some crazys of our own up here,recently 1 ended up on a greyhound bus, if that crazy would have had a gun it could have turned into a 52 person bloodbath. And unfortunately guns have a way of turning up on the streets for children to kill each other with.
 Scherri
Joined: 7/14/2008
Msg: 133
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/25/2008 10:10:55 AM
America is a country driven on fear. It is one of the ploys used to keep is in line, under control by our government. We for some reason of stupidity, always feel we are under attack rather it be our neighbors or terrorist. There is absolutely no reason to carry a concealed weapon and to not carry one doesn’t encroach upon any constitutional laws. The constitution isn’t infallible, hence amendments!
 Robodeer7
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 135
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/25/2008 10:25:51 AM
Hey, whatever you want! You don't want one? Great! I do...and you better leave me alone. (Rhettorically speaking, of course!)
It sounds old and tired, but seriously, when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.
The brady folks and gun grabbers like our OP today are seriously misguided and have allowed their emotions to run ahead of their logic. Yes, bad things happen. Bad things will ALWAYS happen...wouldn't you feel better if you the capacity to stop a rape or murder going in front of your eyes? Call the cops?....If the victim is still alive in thirty or forty minutes (assuming, of course, that the COP is allowed to have a gun, don't laugh, gun-less cops is also an aim of left.)............then the cops can do something about it. Maybe.

Only a really misguided person would believe for a moment that a conceal carry permit, or lack thereof is enough to stop someone from carrying a gun. Its not like the average joe criminal drug dealer went down to the store to get his cop killin UZI, now is it?
This is a recycled BAD IDEA....and I will vote, and politically act against any effort to contain my rights. I'm that passionate about it.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 143
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/25/2008 12:43:56 PM
YES, I have a RECOGNIZED GOD given right to have guns

Odd, I must have missed that part...

Which commandment is it that says "thou shalt bear arms"? Or is it buried somewhere deeper... something I might have overlooked in Genesis, something like:

"Then God said, Let us make man in our image ... in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them and endowed them with the right to bear arms."

Is that it?
 Scherri
Joined: 7/14/2008
Msg: 147
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/25/2008 1:14:45 PM

Wow Scherri it must be nice to live in a perfect community such as yours where the threat of violence against you or your family is not a possibility!

You should really try living out here in the real world where people are mugged, raped, robbed, or maimed. You might just gain a new appreciation for the 2nd amendment.


I don't live in a perfect community and yes anything is possible. I was born and raised and currently reside in Detroit. I am well aware of the crimes of our world and guess what, I am not afraid! Fear doesn't thrive in me. I am not for taking away anyone’s guns. I am for strict gun control measures and do not support carrying concealed weapons. There is no need to walk around toting a gun at your side, back, sock, shoe, purse or any other place on ones person on a daily basis. I have owned a gun and have enjoyed numerous trips to the range. I believe people can own guns if they choose, but should not have permits to carry them freely. Leave it home, or to hunting or whatever recreational shooting sport you partake. And no, shooting that pesky neighbor or road hog is not a sport!
 Scherri
Joined: 7/14/2008
Msg: 150
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/25/2008 1:35:05 PM
The thugs can do as they please, if they want to carry weapons they do and will. That doesn't scare me or lead me to believe I have to be ready for an attack at all times. Get a grip,(not on the gun, lol) and have faith in something other than yourself and the ability to aim and fire.
 Lostcauz
Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 151
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/25/2008 6:46:51 PM
I haven't taken the time to read through all 8 pages of posts in this thread. So, please forgive me, if I raise a point of contention that has already been addressed.

Murder is the LEAST PREVENTABLE CRIME THERE IS.

If someone takes a notion to kill someone, they're going to do it.

The two incidents cited, that started this discussion, both invovled individuals who had permits to carry concealed weapons, and VIOLATED THE LAW. They were both arrested, and CHARGED WITH VIOLATING THE LAW. The fact that they both had concealed carry permits, is irrelevant. They each committed a crime, and have been charged with their respective crimes.

There are an infinite number of people who are murdered by many different means, every day. I don't hear any hue and cry for the removal of all bottles, cars, and all other implements used to commit murder to be regulated, and removed from every day society.

In the US, we have a Constitutional right to keep and bear arms; this right was most recently affirmed in the US Supreme Court, in the Heller case.

Do whatever it takes for those of you against guns to get over it. ALL US citizens have a Constitutional right to keep and bear arms.

ALL US citizens also have a perfect right to leave the US; exercise that right.

Given the posts from our neighbors up North, it sounds as if that might be a place where you might find some comfort.
 forum_moderator
Joined: 1/24/2003
Msg: 153
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/25/2008 8:05:46 PM


*Flaming and Flame-baiting posts removed. Posters are reminded to address the topic, not each other.* TheMadFiddler - PoF Forum Moderator
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 154
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/25/2008 10:16:18 PM

Cars kill many more people every year than guns. You can't fix stupid.


Nope. Sure can't. You can't fix stupid by giving it a gun either. No sirree!!!
 maxxoccupancy
Joined: 2/5/2007
Msg: 155
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/25/2008 11:53:26 PM
Cities, states, and countries that have disarmed their people have generally seen a rise in violent crime rates. Jamaica, Australia, Canada, and Britain disarmed their people, and all saw increases in violent crime; as did Maryland, New Jersey, Illinois, Massachusetts, and the cities of Chicago, San Francisco, and Washington, D.C. The last example is perhaps the most tragic, as the District of Columbia saw the most dramatic increase in homicides after removing one of the key deterrents to crime--that is, the fear that criminals will encounter and armed citizen.

Are police more trustworthy than private citizens? Well, police officers are private citizens who've been through training and indoctrination that many would consider less than healthful to the general public. The accidental shooting rate for private citizens is 1.2%, still too high. For law enforcement (previously referred to as peace officers), that figure is roughly 12%, or ten times as high. Retired officers have been warning that the profession and expectations are changing, that cops are being encouraged to use excessive force, to lie, and to write up tickets even when in doubt.
 Scherri
Joined: 7/14/2008
Msg: 156
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/26/2008 8:24:16 AM

Oh really...

If you do not have faith in yourself, just who are you going to have faith in???

LOL.... since you brought up faith, and a previous poster suggested the bible.... remember... God helps those who help themselves...

I gotta say though.... Im glad I have guns and Im sure the Thugs around your neighborhood are glad you dont have faith in yourself enough to provide your own protection....


It is appropiate when quoting a person, to include the entire statement that is made as to not lose the meaning of their statement. Chopping of half of the statement sometimes loses its meaning, and when that occurs one should include the entire statement. Otherwise there is no need to quote, simply paraphrase their statement.

I have faith in myself and God-although I am not christain. I realize there is crime in the world, as I stated before I live in Detroit, but don't live my life in fear, nor am I depedent on gun to give me a false sense of security.
 Scherri
Joined: 7/14/2008
Msg: 158
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/26/2008 9:34:35 AM

Why is it so vital that you impose your views, be they political or social, about guns... on my life. Why should I give up my right to own and carry a gun, and in my view my security... to appease you???

According to you, those "thugs" that are running around, without regard to the law, who have guns, are not going to harm you anyway... Im not as sure about that as you may be...


I am not asking or imposing my views on anyone's life nor have I asked anyone to give up their right to own a gun or want anyone to appease me. I also did not state the thugs as you call it are not going to harm me. I am for stricter gun control laws and don't see a reason fro carrying a concealed weapon.

I am more concerned with the "thugs" in the suits than the thugs on the streets.
 printer2
Joined: 6/19/2007
Msg: 160
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/26/2008 9:52:01 AM


Cities, states, and countries that have disarmed their people have generally seen a rise in violent crime rates. Jamaica, Australia, Canada, and Britain disarmed their people, and all saw increases in violent crime;

Sorry you are mistaken. Canada has not disarmed people. Mainly what we have done different from before 1998 is to require rifles and shotguns to be registered and anyone not already possessing a short barreled handgun can only buy one with a barrel longer than 4”.

Not that I like quoting statistics but gun deaths have gone down steadily since before the gun registry was implemented. People in favour of gun registration point to it as proof that the laws are working. The handily ignore the fact society is getting older and we have less young ones running wild on the streets.

People against gun controls point towards the apparent increase in violent crimes and point at gun controls as the reason we have more violent crime. They also ignore the glorification of violence through video games, movies, and even the news. Do you want to be famous? Go shoot someplace up to show you are a bad MF.


The accidental shooting rate for private citizens is 1.2%, still too high. For law enforcement (previously referred to as peace officers), that figure is roughly 12%,

Could that be because copes look for trouble (after all it is their job)? Who is going to catch more fish, the person that occasionally puts his pole in the water or someone that makes a living fishing using a net.


You are one person, just like the rest of the "anti-gun" crowd. If you choose NOT to carry a weapon, own a gun, or what have you. Fine. that is your right...

Why is it so vital that you impose your views, be they political or social, about guns... on my life.

Because the gun culture in the US breeds violence. People think it is ok to use guns. Some people turn bad and can justify using a gun because it is what they are used to. Which causes more people to arm themselves. And the cycle continues and goes out of control.

Once you guys are finished in Iraq, maybe it will be time you have a troop surge in your own country to reduce the level of violence. After a while your society may find a way away from violence. What kind of future do you want?
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 161
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/26/2008 10:43:16 AM

What kind of future do you want?


Here's the thing. I don't think most Americans want a future. They want a continual extension of either the '70s or the '50s. The really old ones want to go back to the '40s, and the cowboys among us want to go back to the Wild West.

No one likes the visions of the future that are being handed to us. But rather than envisioning a sustainable future that we all might enjoy, we fantasize about killing rather than being killed. That's not my idea of the American Dream, but apparently I'm in the minority on this.
 Scherri
Joined: 7/14/2008
Msg: 164
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/26/2008 2:32:28 PM
I am not hear to persuade anyone to believe as I do. I participate in the forum because it makes for decent discussions. I didn't come here to prove a point and try to sway people to think my way. These are my personal thoughts and opinions and I don't need to cite my opinion, which I never stated was a fact.
 printer2
Joined: 6/19/2007
Msg: 165
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/26/2008 4:03:50 PM


To sit there and say that "guns" make people "go bad" is ludicrous...

To say that I said 'that "guns" make people "go bad" is ludicrous...'. Way back when I posted that I used to shoot, I had handguns, but got rid of them because I developed wrist problems (I shot a lot). So I do not have a bias against guns nor do I think they are evil.

I just do not think the average person is well enough trained enough to carry one out in public, whether they took a course or not. Some people I used to shoot with have their carry permit for the US so I know about the training needed to get a permit.


Ignorance, laziness and lack of respect is what causes people to "go bad" And I do not disagree with this statement. But since some people are going to ‘go bad’ how do we combat it?

Now Americans and Canadians are really not all that different. We eat the same things, listen to the same music, our beer is better (sorry), but you people seem to kill each other much more than we do. Why is that? And is there any way to change that?

I am just guessing at what the cause may be. I am willing to hear others opinions on why things are like they are and what may need to change so people can walk the streets in safety. But what I hear is ‘It is my God given right to blow away scum’ which brings the other side to respond with ‘Who gave you the right to decide who lives and who dies.

I would like to feel as safe in the States as I do in Canada. Somehow I do not feel a bunch of people packing will change much. If that were the answer Mexico would probably be paradise.
 bikerguy45
Joined: 3/15/2007
Msg: 166
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/26/2008 4:20:38 PM
i find this a very emotionally charged topic..i read an earlier post the writer said 'those people". i find that interesting because i am most definately one of those people..also interesting i have been an RN for about 30 years..i have never know of a gun of any kind to kill a person...i subscribe to the position that people pull the triggers & people kill people...oh, if thats cause to ban handguns surely u believe in banning cars, trucks booze & cigarettes cause they kill people as well !!!!????? i would suggest it's about personal responsibility !!!! nevermind the second amendment allows citizens to keep & bear !!! bikerguy
 eeeo4U
Joined: 6/25/2007
Msg: 167
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/26/2008 5:07:11 PM
I think that as long as people, young people in the inner cities regardless of race or ethnicity have two examples to look at and some of course will pick the wrong one we are going to have dangerous cities.

You are a young man ( I say man because I am one and can relate better) growing up poor in the inner city. You may have only one responsible parent who may or may not be on public assistance. You see your teachers at school wearing WalMart clothes, driving used Chevies in which the air conditioning doesn't even work, barely able to afford dinner at McDonald's and you see honest police officers in the same state.

On the other hand there are gangbangers rolling around in their "fly rides" with chrome "dubs" , their high-powered stereos kicking out the latest gangsta rap. They don't seem to have anywhere to be except on this corner collecting their money. Instead of one nice, plain wife they have strings of the word Don Imus got fired for. And they didn't have to go to college or long training to have much more than the teachers and cops do...just outlast the competition and shoot faster. As long as there is this dichotomy, I'm glad the average citizen can protect him/herself.
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