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Show ALL Forums  > Current Events  > Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea      Home login  
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 Scherri
Joined: 7/14/2008
Msg: 201
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea Page 9 of 13    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13)
I don't think most people choose to carry a concealed weapon because of some irrational paranoia of being victimized. There are probably numerous reasons people carry concealed weapons, fighting potential attackers is used often as a reason because people believe it puts up a good argument to support their cause.

A person may very well take a course and legally secure their permit to carry, but that does not imply they have the mental capacity to handle and operate a weapon.
 Smuggler1
Joined: 8/7/2008
Msg: 202
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 10:44:32 AM

I don't think most people choose to carry a concealed weapon because of some irrational paranoia of being victimized. There are probably numerous reasons people carry concealed weapons, fighting potential attackers is used often as a reason because people believe it puts up a good argument to support their cause.

A person may very well take a course and legally secure their permit to carry, but that does not imply they have the mental capacity to handle and operate a weapon


Spoken like someone that has NO idea of how to use, control, or maintain a weapon.

YOU are the very type of person that maybe shouldnt have a gun!

I would venture a guess, that most people who have CWP's, have both shooting and cleaning experience with the weapon they plan on carrying.

Its not something you just wake up one day, decide that you want to spend the money and time to sit through the classes, just so you can wave a piece of paper around merrily while dancing in the rain.... Please...
 maxxoccupancy
Joined: 2/5/2007
Msg: 203
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History
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 11:00:57 AM
As a member of NHLA, we encounter the same problem in the NH State House. People become very emotional and start talking about the objects to be outlawed, rather than the law itself. The main reason that public support for gun control in America has evaporated is that gun control advocates have used so many emotional arguments, while gun rights advocates have been employing facts and logical arguments. Even, "I don't see why anyone would need to carry a gun..." doesn't pull any weight with me.

To the contrary, I've seen so many peaceful citizens targeted by gun enforcement, that it couldn't be worthwhile even if gun control reduced crime. Instead, cities, states, and countries that have disarmed their people have almost always seen rapid increases in violent crime. The weight of evidence shows that gun control laws cause nothing but problems.
 Scherri
Joined: 7/14/2008
Msg: 204
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 12:00:35 PM
Spoken like someone that has NO idea of how to use, control, or maintain a weapon.

YOU are the very type of person that maybe shouldnt have a gun!

I would venture a guess, that most people who have CWP's, have both shooting and cleaning experience with the weapon they plan on carrying.

Its not something you just wake up one day, decide that you want to spend the money and time to sit through the classes, just so you can wave a piece of paper around merrily while dancing in the rain.... Please...


I know how to use, control and maintain a weapon and also posses the mental capacity to have one. I was a registered gun owner and will probably acquire another peice in the near future. Sitting through a 8 hour class, which is how long it takes in MI feel free to correct me if I am wrong, gives you the legal ability to own a gun but does not necessarily mean one is mentally stable enough to own a weapon and to use it wisely.

Edit: the 8 hour class to acquire a CCW permit
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 205
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 12:00:47 PM
There really is more to gun control than hitting what you aim at. It's also about knowing how to refrain from taking aim at illegitimate targets.

Both of those skills require training and practice. Until we provide universal training (which the founders assumed would be routinely done at home in their agrarian economy), we cannot presume that people know how to handle guns safely. And, if I can't count on my fellow citizens to handle a deadly weapon safely, I'm going to be rather reluctant to support them in having access to them. Call me a prude.

On the other hand, I would feel very comfortable knowing that all of the people around me are current in their training. It would make for a much more respectful society. It would also be more honest, because our lives really are in one another's hands.
 Smuggler1
Joined: 8/7/2008
Msg: 206
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 3:47:33 PM

necessarily mean one is mentally stable enough to own a weapon and to use it wisely


Depending on your school of thinking, one could question your state of mental stability...

as they could with mine, and the other hundred posters here... but if someone is willing to go through the class, spend the money, Im sure they have something on the ball...
 Sky at sunset
Joined: 12/20/2006
Msg: 207
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 3:53:42 PM
No one "needs" to carry a gun. Why would you want to?
 Smuggler1
Joined: 8/7/2008
Msg: 208
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 4:02:08 PM

No one "needs" to carry a gun. Why would you want to?


LOL...

No one needs to carry a gun?? really?? Well, then... lets just get all the cops, the military, secret service and anyone else to just hand them all in, and we'll see who takes over!!

LOL....

the "need" would be based on ones perspective/perception.

as for the "why" again... based on perspective/perception.

Usually Self Preservation/protection.
 Lostcauz
Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 209
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 4:12:05 PM

No one "needs" to carry a gun. Why would you want to?


I can cite 455 reasons why I "need" to carry a gun.

That is the number of people I put in jail, when I was a Police Officer. Nearly every one of them was not happy about having been arrested (some swore to get even), and put in jail; let alone, a vast majority of them having been sent to prison, some of those, for the second or third time.

Why would I want to carry a gun? There are rather basic reasons.

I may run into one of the 455 criminals that I arrested, and that person might just want to make good on getting even.

I have a family that relies upon my being able to work, and provide for them. Mama would be rather unhappy if I got hurt, or killed. You know, if Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy? I've promised Mama to do my very best to keep her as happy as I possibly can.

I've grown fond of breathing.

Criminals usually decide NOT to perpetrate crimes, when they have been confronted with equal force.

Merely the production of a gun, almost ALWAYS stops someone from whatever illegal activity they are engaging in.

I'm sure there are other, and better, reasons for carrying a gun as a private citizen. I'm sure the other posters here will add to the list.
 maxxoccupancy
Joined: 2/5/2007
Msg: 210
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History
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 4:54:34 PM
We entrust our neighbors with the power to use stoves which can cause dangerous fires, to drive cars that often kill people, to carry diseases that go untreated, and to vote for politicians who start wars, drive up health care costs, and redesign freeway interchanges for the worse. Governments all over the world wrongly imprison, torture, and murder their own people, yet we simply give our neighbor the right to vote crooks and sociopaths into office.

Of 83 million registered firearms owners, very few ever commit crimes with their firearms, but tens of thousands of crimes are prevented every year that the media never tells us about. Areas with high rates of firearm ownership tend to see lower violent crime rates.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 211
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 5:07:56 PM
Stoves have safety interlocks. Drivers must get trained and licensed. Public safety officers can quarantine virulent disease carriers if necessary. We provide public education for virtually everyone for 12 years in the hope that they all will grow up to be informed voters and responsible citizens.

How is any of that inconsistent with the idea that a well-regulated militia requires that the citizen soldiers be _trained?_
 wolfs_blaze316
Joined: 7/22/2008
Msg: 212
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 5:26:41 PM
As i see it people need to look at a few states i live in WV we have concealed permits and when was the last time WV was in the national news for someone being murdered . Were as places like chicago and cali were certain citys banned citzens from using guns for personal protection there is murder everyday. i know i lived in charlotte nc for 6 months . if crimnals know a good citizen obeys the law are defenseless thus its like jackels over a dead body. so i say this.

If guns kill people , then
pencils miss spel words.
trucks make people drive drunk.
spoons make people fat.
matches cause arson.
 Lostcauz
Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 213
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 5:31:52 PM

Stoves have safety interlocks. Drivers must get trained and licensed. Public safety officers can quarantine virulent disease carriers if necessary. We provide public education for virtually everyone for 12 years in the hope that they all will grow up to be informed voters and responsible citizens.

How is any of that inconsistent with the idea that a well-regulated militia requires that the citizen soldiers be _trained?_

In Washington DC v Heller, the US Supreme Court ruled, quite clearly, that the right to keep and bear arms is an INDIVIDUAL right, and not a collective right.

The "well regulated militia" portion of the second amendment to the US Constitution, as determined by the US Supreme Court, is a statement of purpose, and not an operative phrase. Accordingly, the "well regulated militia" phrase, as it is used in the second amendment to the US Constitution, has no bearing on an individual's right to keep and bear arms, concealed, or otherwise.
 hdhawk1
Joined: 7/7/2007
Msg: 214
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 5:59:06 PM
We all have a right to own guns, unless you have a criminal record that doesn't allow you to have guns anymore. There are always going to be stupid people out there, that do stupid things ! If you don't like the rights we have in this country, then go live in another country, and see how you like there rights ! I will never give up my guns !!
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 215
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 6:19:02 PM
And while our Canadian friends question our gun laws...I read this in an Edmonton newspaper.

**********"These homicides, gun-related homicides, are quite typically involving gangs, drugs, high-risk lifestyles," Staff Sgt. Chris Kluthe with the Edmonton police homicide unit said Wednesday. "Eight of those homicides that we did have ... were gang related. I think it's not just the gangs but those involved in the drug lifestyle as well, accessibility to guns all over the place," he added.


Edmonton.....sometimes called "Deadmonton" :innocent:

A huge amount of murders.........to a Canadian.


Edmonton's 2008 murder meter officially stands at 18 -- total metro area count stands at 24

In 2005, Edmonton set its all-time one-year murder record with 39 deaths, more than one every 10 days.

In 2007, the city recorded 33 murders.

There were 36 in 2006.

http://www.lastlinkontheleft.


Now look at how many people actually live there :


Population (2008 (city) 2007 (metro))
- City 752,412
- Density 1,099.4/km² (2,847.4/sq mi)
- Urban 862,544
- Metro 1,081,300
- Metro Density 109.9/km² (284.6/sq mi)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmonton


Almost three quarters of a million people live there, just in the city.

So far, in 2008, only 38 have been murdered. I think a review of the cases would show few if any ones where average people have been murdered by some criminal robbing them - or wanting to kill them.

That's roughly the same population density as Fort Worth, Texas, which has a population density of 2,178.09 per square mile.


One kilometer is equivalent to 1,000 meters or 0.62 miles


Fort Worth's homicide rate ?

The last numbers I found were for 2006 .........51 . The death penalty, CCW laws all over the state allowing handguns almost anywere including inside airports (up to the secure areas of them, at least), and a self defense law that allows you to shoot someone that isn't even a threat to your life - like someone robbing your house.

Still more murders, and more crime. If CCW laws actually reduced crime, then this would not be true.
 tacitus1
Joined: 10/12/2007
Msg: 216
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History
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 6:42:50 PM
While you fish through media reports for the few examples of people with concealed carry permits that screw up, maybe you should contrast their numbers with the number of licensed drivers that killed someone with a car - most while drunk - and remember the oft used statement that gun control groups use that it should be as hard to get a gun as a it is to get a car. Hundreds dead on the roads each day in this country versus a small handful? I certainly think that people should have the ability to make life and death decisions for themselves. Perhaps you hold the generally liberal view that ordinary citizens aren't smart enough to make such a choice and therefore the government should take care of us - I disagree.

Why should a police officer risk his life to protect me, if I'm not willing to protect myself? And when I encounter a criminal who wishes to hurt me, what are the chances that a police officer will be there? The last time I had someone pull a knife on me and demand my money, it took nearly half an hour for a police officer to respond, and I live less than half a mile from a police precinct. It was the next day that an officer came by to take a report and photograph damage when someone tried to force his way into my house. What obligation do you suggest that I have to be a willing and passive victim in such cases?
 bigshrek
Joined: 11/15/2007
Msg: 217
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 10:06:57 PM
MG~ Fort Worth also has probably another 100,000-200,000 transient illegal immigrants running around there, so one would have to adjust for the extra people ;)

OP-I could EASILY post 500 instances of where having a CCW stopped a crime in progress in a city/urban area without a shot being fired, and another 500 where shots were fired and bad guys died. Florida has seen a HUGE improvement in quality of life due to CCW, 10-20-Life, and the Castle Doctrines being passed. We in Florida enjoy a slow but steady decrease in violent crime.

But there are going to be occasional idiots in even the BEST places. Take for example the Atlanta Police Gun Instructor who recently mixed up his live ammo with his blank ammo and shot a female student, killing her. It's not a perfect world. Humans are going to occasionally make mistakes. But the biggest mistake we could EVER make is to belive that Nero's way would ever work. It doesn't work in Chicago, it doesn't work in New York, it DEFINITELY doesn't work in Washington D.C. and it JUST DOESN'T WORK IN AMERICA!!!
 Lostcauz
Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 218
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 12:10:01 AM

Fort Worth's homicide rate ?

The last numbers I found were for 2006 .........51 . The death penalty, CCW laws all over the state allowing handguns almost anywere including inside airports (up to the secure areas of them, at least), and a self defense law that allows you to shoot someone that isn't even a threat to your life - like someone robbing your house.

Still more murders, and more crime. If CCW laws actually reduced crime, then this would not be true.

I don't know where Edmonton, Canada is, or what it is close to. However, I do know where Ft. Worth, Texas is, and that it is part of the Dallas/Ft. Worth Metroplex. The Metroplex encompasses at least two counties, and more cities than I can recall.

People who live in the Metroplex refer to the area, as if it were one city. The Police Officers that work in the Metroplex may work for any given city. However, they must "work" the entire Metroplex, as city limits are only defined by the signs indicating them in that area.

When considering crime rates for this area, one should consider the entire Metroplex as a whole.
 dracophoenixfire
Joined: 2/13/2007
Msg: 219
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 12:54:34 AM
Your posting reads like bad science. Lets talk about how bad oxygen is because it causes metal to rust, can you imagine what that is doing to your body?

Posting about the death of the democrat doesn't even correlate to your statements of '[concealed weapons permits causes impulse killings]' the dude drove hours away to do him in. If he didn't have a gun, he would have just drove over him. Should we revoke everyone's license now too?

There may come a day when American's will have to stand up to their government, if I had my way every american would have a gun. I agree, the first few years it would be the wild west, but soon after social Darwinism would play out. I'm pretty sure if everyone owned a gun equality would happen really quickly.
 tallskier
Joined: 5/20/2005
Msg: 220
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 11:52:37 AM

There may come a day when American's will have to stand up to their government


That, my friend, is the very reason for he existence of the Second Amendment!
 tallskier
Joined: 5/20/2005
Msg: 221
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 12:00:36 PM

There really is more to gun control than hitting what you aim at. It's also about knowing how to refrain from taking aim at illegitimate targets.

Both of those skills require training and practice. Until we provide universal training (which the founders assumed would be routinely done at home in their agrarian economy), we cannot presume that people know how to handle guns safely. And, if I can't count on my fellow citizens to handle a deadly weapon safely, I'm going to be rather reluctant to support them in having access to them. Call me a prude.


As far as I can tell, the topic of this thread is legal concealed carry.

You have the right to worry about whatever you'd like, but I think you'd be far better served to worry about the driver in the car next to you, than to worry about a person walking down the street who has a concealed carry permit.

Thankfully, we don't *usually* pass laws based on what people are worried about, but instead, to address *real* problems that we have in society.

38 states (last I heard) have "shall issue" concealed carry laws, where the Sheriff (or other authority) "shall issue" a permit to anyone who meets the state's training requirements and is not disqualified by reason of felony or mental health history.

Before you rush off to change the status quo, wouldn't it be prudent to first establish that there is in fact a threat to society?
 Plastic Sturgeon
Joined: 12/5/2007
Msg: 222
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 12:06:46 PM
I for one, am in favour of harsh if not brutal justice! How about
the death penalty for carrying an illegal weapon? Not the, death row,
years down the road, make Lawyers RICH, type of system. But the
third world, hang em next week type of justice?

Or Graffiti artists! Off with both hands, first offence!

The ONLY problem I could see with this, would be the unwillingness
(for obvious reasons) of the offenders to surrender! But on the other
hand it simply may not be an issue, and this is what the Liberal D0-Gooders
always seem to fail to see. Most people would simply not misbehave! The
risk, simply wouldn't be worth it!

Look to countries like Malaysia or Muslim countries where you could leave
your camera or wallet lying in the street. I think too many individuals in positions
of power within our society have too much to gain with our joke of a justice system!
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 223
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 1:00:59 PM
PS,

If you prefer living under those brutal regimes, I'm sure there is one who'd welcome you. However, once you got there I suspect you'd change your mind.

Say what you will about liberal do-gooders, governments and leaders who behave brutally set a tone for everyone who follows. You not only get brutalized for breaking the laws, you run the risk of brutal suppression of any new innovation or even idea that you come up with. There is a reason why Muslim fundamentalists want to go back to the Middle Ages, yet I suspect that most ordinary Muslims would prefer to have indoor plumbing.

There is a reason why America's #1 product is innovation. We are free to do that here to a much larger extent than anywhere else. We also have the most diverse population mix of any nation in the world, and that mix gives us a much broader menu of ideas and perspectives to draw from than anyone else has.

Along with that freedom and diversity comes some discomfort and the occasional shock. But just because something is unfamiliar doesn't mean it's bad. I remember when PCs first came out and all of the people who were scared to death of 'em. But would you want to go back to the days when you had to type letters by hand and couldn't go back and correct your typos? I don't think so.

It turns out that the ones who have something to gain by a justice system that attempts to protect the rights of the accused is ... all of us.

If the "Will Issue" laws require adequate training and a thorough background check, I have no problem with them.
 tallskier
Joined: 5/20/2005
Msg: 224
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History
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 1:08:44 PM

The last numbers I found were for 2006 .........51 . The death penalty, CCW laws all over the state allowing handguns almost anywere including inside airports (up to the secure areas of them, at least), and a self defense law that allows you to shoot someone that isn't even a threat to your life - like someone robbing your house.

Still more murders, and more crime. If CCW laws actually reduced crime, then this would not be true.


More murders and more crime? Compared to what? Is it fair to say "City x has more murders than city y", without stating the population of each? How many murders per 100,000 population?

I see a lot of posts on here, but not a shred of actual evidence that "shall issue" concealed carry laws are a bad thing.

In virtually every state that has passed "shall issue" concealed carry, someone has predicted "blood in the streets if we pass this". Nowhere has that come to pass, and some of the predictors of gloom were actually honest enough to admit that they were wrong.
 Plastic Sturgeon
Joined: 12/5/2007
Msg: 225
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 1:09:39 PM
Why do people always have to make those extremist arguments?
I'm sure we can pick and choose! I'm sure we could have Brutal
and swift Punishment, which I might add, we would rarely have to
utilize, AND we could still have democracy (Not that we have it
now anyway). I'm quite sure that we could keep our indoor plumbing
and wouldn't stone women for infidelity!
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