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 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 17
Contraversery over the confederate flag.Page 4 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
You're actually making my point:

If you saw someone in white robes and a pointy hood, are you thinking, "Hmm, must be going to a costume party as a ghost"?

The flag has been used as a racist symbol, despite the revisionist history I saw above about the KKK using the American flag. That was so ironic I at first didn't feel it needed commenting on.
 SAguy_06
Joined: 12/29/2005
Msg: 20
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/15/2008 12:35:53 PM
Lil Tommy Defoe's rights were never, and are not, being violated.

Lil tommy can walk down Any Street, USA and no public official would, or will stop him and ask that the buckle, shirt, hat...or W ever TF Lil Tommy is "sportin" be removed or surrendered.

Lil Tommy can even take his School District to Federal Court...Get Real.

So y'all can Howl at the moon, Party with Confederate Ghosts, Paint your P-truck in Stars and Bars...Knock y'alls selves out, you got the Right!
 Belle Requin
Joined: 2/17/2007
Msg: 21
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/15/2008 1:21:21 PM

The swastika is a ancient hindu symbol of peace. But clearly the swastika means different things to hindus and jews. Hindus didn't kill millions of jews, but they don't use their symbol in America or Europe out of sensitivity.
I seem to remember that actually the Hindu Symbol is a different direction of the swastika, though I may be in error on that one. However, I have been in a Hindu temple where they did have swastikas on display and in artwork on the walls- clearly not black ones on white backgrounds in red circles, but they still chose to use their symbol in their temple. If they do it Cda, I'm sure they do it in the US.
 SAguy_06
Joined: 12/29/2005
Msg: 22
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/15/2008 1:35:31 PM
The Swastika is a Hindu symbol and is either right handed or left, right for good, left meaning Night and Magic...mysticism.

The NAZIs use the same RH version, they just rotated it 45 deg. CCW.
 Ezzee
Joined: 7/26/2004
Msg: 23
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/15/2008 1:56:58 PM

Offended? A symbol that in the past has invoked racism, hatred and violence against a race of people might be considered as something more than just an "offense".


You know, as a Native American, I say the same thing the US Flag sometimes.

Fact of the matter is that a symbol, like the Confederate Battle Flag or the US Flag is open to interpretation. And those meanings can be perverse or wholesome.

To me, the Confederate Battle Flag stands for an important time in this nations history. A time when our country was divided over an important issue in which Abraham Lincoln decided to overstep his authorities and shred the constitution so that he could keep the USA together, be it good or bad. It is still an important time in our history.

I think this kid should have no problem being able to wear the belt buckle. Hell, I have a belt buckle with the Confederate flag on it. I also have a belt buckle with a bald eagle and the Confederate Flag and the US flag crossing. Because they are important symbols to our history to me. It isn't about racism. And I'll tell you right now, just because I wear them has nothing to do with racism or diversity. I have been recognized several times in my commitment to diversity at my University.

So I tell you what, keep your whining, complaining, this that and all the other stuff about racist symbols. That is your right. But one thing you may wish to relive is the opening presentation in Da Vinci Code. More interesting stuff about symbols and rhetoric.
 Strongdad
Joined: 6/9/2007
Msg: 34
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/15/2008 10:21:21 PM
Why cant dude just wear his silly beltbuckle off campus?

Schools can employ dress standards for a lot of reasons. He needs to leave it at home while he goes to school.

What's the big mystery?
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 35
view profile
History
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/15/2008 10:29:31 PM
When the Berlin Wall came down, a photo was taken of a guy standing on top of it waving the Stars and Bars. He was showing true Rebel spirit. That is what the Stars and Bars has always represented, the Rebel Spirit. It never represented hatred. Does anyone actually believe that slaveholders were out there fighting for their rights??? No, the boys in Gray could barely afford shoes let alone slaves. Research it if you think I am wrong. Think I will go buy me a Stars and Bars t-shirt and dare anyone to say anything to me about it here in Michigan. Go Rebs!!
 mcbobly
Joined: 8/28/2005
Msg: 41
view profile
History
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/16/2008 5:40:30 AM
News flash people, IT'S JUST A FREAKIN FLAG OR SYMBOL! Get a grip, it only means something if someone is "looking" to read something into it. It's a freaking flag like all other flags around the world, who cares what era or area it's from it has NO MEANING until some people read meaning into it. Let it go and get over it already, there are much bigger things to be worried about, geez.
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 49
view profile
History
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/16/2008 10:55:27 AM
You know I am offended at black kids wearing a big X on their shirt to represent Malcolm X, a common criminal who hated white people. If they can wear their X, then Southern Kids should be able to wear the Stars and Bars X. You wear your X and I'll wear mine.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 50
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/16/2008 10:56:10 AM
I have no problem with protecting speech which offends others.

But this is a public school where others are legally obligated to attend. This isn't a case of the right of free speech, but of conflicting rights. And that's where you always get the muddy solutions.

If someone wants to parade around in a sheet and hood and burn a cross on his own front lawn I'll defend his right to do so, even though I obviously disagree. But if my daughter has to attend the local high school, I don't want her subjected to hate directed at anyone. And for many, many students there, the Confederate flag has become a symbol of racist hate.
 bigshrek
Joined: 11/15/2007
Msg: 59
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/16/2008 1:58:01 PM
About the Flag-raising in Florida...did anyone notice that it was two BLACK Sons of Confederate Veterans who finished raising the Confederate Battle Flag the last 30-odd feet up the pole??

Myself, I think they should have chosen the Confederate Standard rather than the Battle Flag. It's as polarizing as Hillary Clinton.

But back in the 80's I wore a grey Pink Panther t-shirt to high school that had him in a Confederate Kepi & holding the Battle Flag...nobody ever even blinked at it. Being a History major gave me a totally DIFFERENT view of the Civil War...and a view that I still hold to this day...that our Federal Government has gotten so huge and so far past what the Founding Fathers ever intended...and that States have predominately lost the ability to HAVE many rights...that one day the whole thing will do just as the USSR did...collapse due to the onerus weight of Buracracy.

I really can't see us continuing to do business with the government in it's current deteriorating state for more than 50-100 years without a MAJOR change. A couple more idiot presidents & congressmen and it will lead to something horrible.
 bigshrek
Joined: 11/15/2007
Msg: 62
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/16/2008 2:31:08 PM
^^^ Yep. I also believe that all schools should stick to a standard uniform just to alleviate headaches.

I went to a shop recently to buy my monster (age-9) some school clothes...I decided to go with three collared Izod's and two Nintendo (DK & Mario) tshirts...two blue jeans & three khaki slacks. He LOOKS better all dressed up, but realizing that kids wil be kids (and in HIS case he thinks he's a flying tree monkey) I bowed to the inevitable tshirt & blue jeans for at least TWO outfits. I would VASTLY prefer that he wore a Uniform for several reasons...not the least of which is Conformity. School is Learning Time, not an Individual Rights Display.

Less Distractions = Better Grades.
 Ezzee
Joined: 7/26/2004
Msg: 63
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/16/2008 2:45:15 PM

Once again, how is it any different from a child wearing a Nazi uniform if he had german grandparents? Or hell, a shirt expressing terrorist sympathies?


While in your opinion this may be the case, then I would rebut this as questions of my own:

A.) How can one look at the American Flag with any feelings of pride when they have a history of genocide within their history?

B.) How can one look upon the Canadian Flag with any feelings of pride when they have a history of Humanitarian Rights violations?

My point being this. All countries/flags have blood on their hands, whether it be American, German, English, Austraillian, Israelli, or what have you.

And while all countries/flags do have this blood upon their hands, we have chosen to overlook these other atrocities and fly them proudly as patriots of that country, and for the deeper meanings of the flag.

If a person is offended by the Confederate Battle Falg being displayed because of the blood that they have on their hands, I can't do anything about that except to attempt to help them understand the deeper meaning.

However, if this society is going to take such a shallow symbolism upon the Confederate Battle Flag, then in the name of my ancestors, I will have to take the same shallow symbolism upon other flags.

That being said, to me, the American Flag stands for Genocide of the native people and the Canadian Flag stands for Human Rights Atrocities of the aboriginal people. So if you are going to deny me my right to fly the Canadian Battle Flag, then maybe it is time to start fighting against your right to fly the American or Canadian Flag based on those same principles.

I'm sorry if people see this as flame baiting, but as a previous poster stated, one can't suppress an emotional issue.
 stephen_86
Joined: 8/10/2008
Msg: 67
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/16/2008 3:33:46 PM
The American Flag stood for slavery a lot longer than any confederate banner. Should we ban the American flag in our schools as well.

The emancipation proclomation signed by Lincoln only freed the slaves in the Confederate states. Slavery was still legal in several states that fought for the North. Therefore slavery was legal in the Union after the Union Outlawed it in the Confederacy.

The Confederate Army was the only Army in the war to have black Officers. The union, even after allowing blacks to enlist, still refused to allow them to be officers.

The KKK does in fact use the Stars and Bars as a racist symbol They also use a Christian cross. If you are going to ban the Starts and bars then you would have to ban the cross as well.

A symbol is only racist if you let it be. That goes for the people who are offended by it as well as the people who try to use it as such. I wonder how long the Natzi's and other racist woudl continue to use it as a symbol if the NAACP carried it in all their marches. Just a thought. If you want to take aeay the power of a racist symbol. Stop treating it like a racist symbol.

Just my two cents.
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 70
view profile
History
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/17/2008 1:08:04 AM
Historian Shelby Foote said that the South remembers the War more vividly than the North because they lost. He compared it to the all the fights he had as a young boy. He only recalled the ones where he got whipped. Every Southerner I have known who displayed the flag did it out of Southern Pride, not some hidden or overt racism. In my mind the Confederacy is not the lost cause, it is a part of our American Heritage and should be allowed to be remembered.

It's funny that we speak of freedom of speech but are so quick to deny people the right to speak less it offend someone. That is except Southerners, Church goers, and blondes. They are put down every day and nobody says a thing about it...
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 79
view profile
History
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/17/2008 8:56:58 AM
Outofthedesert mentioned a little known period in history to most Americans. Reconstruction. This was the total rape and abuse of the South and an effort by the U.S. Government to humiliate the South for secession. If Reconstruction had not happened, we would not be discussing this issue right now, nor would there have ever been a group called the KKK. If I had been a Southerner at the time, I would have pushed to secede again.
 Ezzee
Joined: 7/26/2004
Msg: 92
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/17/2008 6:31:19 PM

Canada and the United States did not aim to achieve independence just so they could maintain their state right to mistreat and enslave other human beings. The US and Canadian flag was not later adopted by hate groups and racist legislators as a symbol of hatred.


Well, there is always that mistreatment, enslavement, and attempted genocide against the aboriginal populations of both countries, but I won't bring that up if you won't.


Schools, PERIOD, are intended to be places of learning, and schools have a responsibility to provide an environment conducive to that, which includes doing whatever is possible to remove sources of distraction and potential hostility.



Yes, there has to be some REASON involved in making these decisions, but I can easily see why a school admininstrator would have qualms over allowing a provocative symbol, that many people DO (obviously, reading this thread) interpret as racially provocative, from SCHOOL.


OK, so, we can't have any provocative symbols, or symbols that may be a distraction or lead to potential hostility?

If we are protecting those rights, then what about my rights.

History has shown that the Americans attempted to commit genocide over my ancestors. To me, that is a distraction to have to see that flag when I know it stands for genocide. To, that is hostile to know that such a symbol of hate is allowed to fly where I am forced to be to learn. Why must symbols of hate and discrimination be flown in my face when I attended a place that I was forced to be by law?

And the Canadian Flag is no different.

If we are going to protect some people's rights, then why are we not going to protect everyone's rights. At one point in this nations history, we attempted to have a government that protected Tyranny of the Majority.

Ladies and gentlemen, look at what we have become.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 106
view profile
History
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/18/2008 8:13:15 AM
free speech is a tough thing and the right to display symbols of virtually any sort should be sacrosanct. its the cost of a free society.
As a Democratic Republic, we have the daunting task of balancing the rights of one against the rights of all, an awesome chore to say the least. Is it appropriate to wear any controversial articles of clothing to a publicly funded function… I suppose it all depends on whether you are the offended or the offender… Everyone has the right to their opinion, even if that opinion is founded in total ignorance, the question before us now is do the ignorant have the right to stifle the rights of others… Christians can’t pray in school, nor can they possess religious materials, to me that’s a clear indication that society as a majority has determined that God has no place in any publicly funded venue, and since most people of faith believe nothing should be put before God, then no one has the right to express any symbol of historical, ethnic or racial heritage, whether it be considered offensive or not.



that being said, the Confederate flag is a symbol of slavery, inequality, and brutality. wriggle all you want and do all the rewrites you please, it was the flag of slave holders and racists who gladly went to war in defense of those beliefs.
and speaking of ignorance….

The Civil War April 12, 1861 – April 9, 1865, was a result of Southern States refusal to accept Lincoln’s push to have an all powerful central government.
The first government action against slavery came by two executive orders, not a singular congressional vote as is commonly (and mistakenly) assumed. “The first one, issued September 22, 1862, declared the freedom of all slaves in any state of the Confederate States of America that did not return to Union control by January 1, 1863. The second order, issued January 1, 1863, named the specific states where it applied.”
As you can see, the war which lasted almost 4 years to the day was in it’s 17th month before ANY anti-slavery action was ever undertaken, and was nearly half over before executive order freed slaves in states which Lincoln (by the legislative proclamation of succession) had no jurisdiction over. Even that document did not abolish slavery in the United States; it merely abolished slavery in the Confederacy. Slavery was STILL legal and practiced in the border states (Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland, Delaware, and West Virginia, as well as the New Orleans region of Louisiana) up until the 13th amendment was ratified by Congress on December 18th, 1865, some 8 + months AFTER the end of the Civil War. That’s right fellow fishies, the last states to outlaw slavery were NORTHERN, which I believe were under the stars and stripes banner, not the stars & bars…..

To give you a historical perspective of how key the issue of slavery was in the US Presidential Election of 1864, with ONLY the north voting, Lincoln beat George McClellan by less than 10% of the popular vote. That means that 45% of the north was NOT in favor of Lincoln’s approach to an all powerful central government and his wartime actions regarding the issue of slavery. (McClellan’s platform was anti-war and favored a diplomatic / negotiated end with immediate cessation of hostilities.) To me, the narrow victory is a representation of precisely what the South indicated was their reason for succession, a measured response to a few elitists who presumed the authority to dictate the limits of states rights, while not restricting their own rights to function in the same manner.

To put this into historically accurate prose, a version of the American Flag we have now actually has a much longer history of supporting slavery, and did so before, during and after the Civil War. The “Stars & Bars” or Confederate Battle Flag was not the National Flag of the Confederate States of America, it was quite simply a banner carried in battles to repel an invading army. Like all defeated armies, the opposition flags or other symbols of their unity are quite frequently demonized as though the symbols themselves are responsible for some unjust or evil actions. Public schools have the responsibility to educate our young, but instead of doing that; they focus on making our children politically correct with no regard for the accuracy of that correctness.
 oddandy
Joined: 3/5/2008
Msg: 109
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/18/2008 9:08:31 AM


What's the difference? Public schools are funded with the same taxpayer money as public streets.


So where do we draw the line then? Should schools not have dress codes at all? Should kids be allowed to go to school completely naked?


Are you able to walk down a public street completely naked? Terrible analogy.
 oddandy
Joined: 3/5/2008
Msg: 110
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/18/2008 9:32:05 AM
IMO, folks still aren't getting it, here. I've seen 6 pages of debate about what the flag stands for. I maintain that it doesn't matter what it stands for, the debate should be how/when people gained a legal right to not be offended? If such a "right" does not exist (I maintain that it does not) this becomes a non-issue, IMO.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 113
view profile
History
Contraversery over the confederate flag.
Posted: 8/18/2008 10:16:23 AM
Thank you, anybody-but-Tim, for making such a clear-cut assertion so easily disposed of. The Missouri Compromise was actually enacted in 1820. It limited slavery to new states created south of a certain boundary and banned slavery to the north. And it wasn't the only federal action against slavery before the treason.
Clearly you've never read the Missouri Compromise, or at least didn't understand what it was you were reading. Preventing, or just as accurately stated, allowing slavery in new states to prevent a tip in the scales that balanced power is not the same as ending slavery.


The States Rights excuse remains bitterly hilarious. The very same Southerners later to demand state's autonomy with regard to their "property" rights were violently critical of northern states who refused to return escaped slaves to their "owners." The plantationers certainly believed in the supremacy of the central government when it suited their preferences, as they took incessant legal action to compel those other "autonomous" states to submit to federal authority.
Federal authority that did not exist. It's even more hilarious the way those ignorant of history feel compelled to proclaim what they believe is fact, not because it's supported by any historical documents or actions, but simply because that's what they were told even when their position is proven to be errant...


But, so it goes with rationalization. No matter how heartfelt the protest, everybody else cringes when the rapist declares, "No, you see, it wasn't rape, because I love her!"
This is the part that takes the argument to a ludicrous and even infantile level. The rationalization is purely on your end of the discussion; my position is supported by using what I like to call FACTS.... Simply because they don't fit into the version of history you were taught doesn't make them inaccurate, rather it is you who must rationalize in order to support your historically inaccurate position. In a post Civil War environment, it was the North who legally held slaves, not the South.... It boggles the mind how anyone can rationalize the Civil War was based primarily on Slavery, when even after the war the North still legally participated in slave trading, and in almost as many states as had succeeded. Of the 18 “Slave” states, 7 were Northern and actively participated in slavery until it was ended by the 13th amendment in December 18th 1865 … Slavery was “outlawed” in Southern states by Presidential proclamation in September 1862, but was openly and legally practiced in the North for more than 3 years after that proclamation that you insist ended slavery… In 1820 they had the Missouri Compromise; it appears in 2008 the only thing compromised is common sense in the search for truth.

oddandy
People will always be offended by one thing or another and that offense as demonstrated in the 6 pages of discussion does not necessarily have to have a historically accurate reason for the offense as long as political correctness allows for the demonizing of symbols. In my opinion, as stated in my initial post, either no one has the right to wear, say or do anything that can be construed as offensive to a segment of the population, or everyone has the right no matter how distasteful it may be. Teaching children that we are entitled to free speech without instilling the seldom discussed realm of accountability for exercising that freedom is detrimental to all generations, not just this one. People can be racist and / or ignorant, and sadly whether we recognize it as a “right” or not is immaterial….



*Around and around she goes and with circuitous logic, fallacies, and a "river in Egypt", when she stops, nobody knows...oh wait...I do. Thread Closed* - TheMadFiddler - PoF Forum Moderator
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