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 StrangerInTheHouse
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 57
White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in VietnamPage 2 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)

I don't think referencing McCain's time as a POW, or his many injuries suffered, and great pain (both physical and psychological) for political gain does any real good - nor serves any real purpose.

But remember, that's a double edged sword.
I can believe he was tortured. It's consistent with what I've read and heard from other POW's... but the way McCain and his supporters keep bringing it up... as if we didn't remember that... It seems as if they feel that alone would qualify someone to be president... an idea with which I strongly disagree.
I think alot of people are sick of hearing about it, so at this point, they're reacting...

Shouldn't the candidate's politics, achievements (Neither of these candidates has ever really achieved that much in Washington. McCain's heart was once in the right place when he voted to limit campaign contributions, and he's been on all these committees, but WTH did they ever do that was good or right?) and personal character be more important than whether or not they were in the military? or were a prisoner of war?

I think so.

For that, I believe Obama's far more qualified.
 StrangerInTheHouse
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 59
White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/23/2008 7:59:19 AM
^That's what I'm talking about.
It's well worth a "mention" concerning his personal character... that he served his country and suffered in the process, but that experience can't be considered justification on it's own as a presidential qualifier. It's not like everyone doesn't know already.
... and his going along with Bush's policies on detainment of terrorist suspects without trial or evidence disrespects all soldiers of all nations as it undermines their rights. It's like a cancer victim like Robert Dole saying "Nobody's proved cigarettes cause cancer." (Another republican sellout.)
 geeleebee
Joined: 5/26/2008
Msg: 62
White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/23/2008 5:11:54 PM
Oh, man...can't believe that I am finding myself defending John McCain...


He has a paper trail of not being a man either """" as a real man would have raised his family and not run around with a little young rich girl.""""So with this track record will he trade America USA out for another country?


There is no such thing as a paper trail proving McCain is not a man.
He adopted the two sons of his first wife, and was involved with them as they grew up--I do believe that at least one of them is very involved in his campaign.
How would McCain 'trade America USA out for another country'?

If you don't like McCain, then please don't vote for him, but the nasty remarks don't add anything to the discussion at hand.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 63
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/23/2008 7:42:56 PM
Point of fact, Sullivan is a gay conservative political pundit. The article was a tongue in cheek issue taking a shot at the semantics of the terminology applied to interrogation techniques deemed acceptable by the Bush administration, and perhaps went a tad bit overboard, nothing more.

The words Republican and Conservative are not synonymous, just as Democrat and Liberal are not. A lot of people, Sullivan as well as myself, subscribe to the political philosophy of conservatism and are aghast at what the majority of Republicans in elected office do and are befuddled that anyone could consider their actions to be representative of a conservative political philosophy.

There are a lot of Democrats who are offended by the label of Liberal, yet espouse the political aspirations of the extreme left and by considering themselves as moderate are actually insulted by being accurately referred to as Liberals. The uninitiated, in response, have recently revived the phrase “Neoconservative” as an attempt to insult what they perceive to represent the extreme far right, when in fact; the term neoconservative was originally coined as a criticism (by Michael Harrington, a democratic socialist in a 1973 welfare article in Dissent Magazine), to describe Liberals who had "moved to the right". To the credit of those Liberals whose intent it is to insult, the current administration has exhibited a tremendous amount of decisions relating to both social and fiscal policy issues as one would expect a Liberal to, so the moniker specific to the administration is not factually unrepresentative.

I myself find the term offensive when applied to me since I have always held a conservative political philosophy, but take no issue when applied to the current administration because I consider them to have historically reacted as a Liberal administration would while trying to make some concessions to a conservative base. In other words, it doesn’t insult me when someone refers to me as a conservative, but it does insult me, (as well as their own intelligence), when they refer to Bush or McCain as conservative.
 cncgandolf
Joined: 7/29/2007
Msg: 64
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/23/2008 11:42:50 PM
"when McCain trots out daily his POW status "

Being a Viet Nam aged person with an ex who served there and various friends POW or MIA or dead or PTSD or safely home I don't understand how being a POW is a credential for leading the military much less the country. I would have hoped it was a credential for humane Christian treatment of POW, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 65
White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/24/2008 3:54:10 AM
I was actually listening to an interesting piece on NPR the other day. It turns out that McCain has basically won everything in political office based on his days in Vietnam. The first time he was elected to a position, it largely happened because there was a muttled contest between a large number of opponenets. One of them challenged him in a debate for just seeking office, not caring about the location. He rose the (legitimate) claim that he had only been in the state for a few years. McCain responded that he was a navy brat and moved around serving the country. He then quipped that the longest time he ever lived in one place was the Hanoi Hilton . The political result of that was he won the election, end of discussion.

But that is actually a moot point. What I meant to say is that those of us who are sane, rational, compassionate human beings believe that John McCain was tortured . Nobody is denying what was done to John McCain. We all agree that he was beaten, sleep deprived, not given medical treatment, etc. Nobody thinks he was at a spa just chilling with his friends. However, through political manipulation and sadism, beatings and sleep deprivation are no longer considered torture by the current white house . McCain has politically aligned himself with the white house and supports the current definition of torture. He has even gone so far to use the ticking time-bomb analogy in his support of it (Ted Rall did a wonderful parody of this, twice several years ago and recently). So what this means is that McCain is being a hypocrite.

I firmly believe that John McCain served this country in Vietnam. I also firmly believe he was tortured. By my definition of torture, the US military tortures people. My positions are consistent.

John McCain believes that John McCain served this country in Vietnam. John McCain believes John McCain was tortured. By John McCain's definition of torture, the US military does not torture people. John McCain's positions are inconsistent. For them to become consistent conditions he would either have to admit that he was not tortured in Vietnam or he would have to admit that the US military tortures people. Otherwise, he will remain a hyppocrite.
 gentalltheway
Joined: 9/9/2006
Msg: 66
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/24/2008 6:29:08 AM

"when McCain trots out daily his POW status "


Well, I cannot blame him for bringing is POW status all the time. After all, isn't it what happens when you get to a certain age? Your memory plays tricks on you and brings you to the past? Ohhh just kidding!


It speaks of his character well , certainly, but it's not something that directly makes him a better presidential candidate in any real way.


It only "speaks of his character" well over 30 years ago and I am definitely not sure it should be viewed as good! Character changes with time...for better or for worst. To see him advocating war they way he does, it's clear in my mind that it's for worst.

As far as making him a better candidate because he served his country goes, I cannot believe that some people would actually take that in to consideration. I even heard this woman saying on the news how good he would be because he was tortured therefore he knows right from wrong. A sandwich short of a picnic for sure but some will buy anything they hear on the big screen.

A bit of reading…
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20299.htm
 MacKevinized
Joined: 2/15/2006
Msg: 67
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/24/2008 7:15:53 AM
At the same time McCain is touting his POW experience as proof positive he is better for national securely, he vehemently opposes the release of POW documents that could either back him up or show he's lying about his treatment.

I cannot fathom why he objects to these documents becoming public because it makes him look like there's more to the story that he doesn't wish to reveal.

The 'hero' image is also very disturbing to me. To me, a hero is someone that disregards their own life and safety for the sake of others. Jumping on a grenade to save the lives of your comrades, stepping in front of a bullet intended for someone else, the engineers that knew they would die when they walked into the Chernobyl reactor are true acts of heroism. Simply getting beat up by your captors has nothing to do with heroism in my opinion.

Maybe McCain did do something heroic while captive but releasing those records from the POW camps in Viet Nam would help us to determine a bit more of the validity of those claims McCain likes to flaunt.
 gentalltheway
Joined: 9/9/2006
Msg: 68
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/24/2008 10:03:46 AM

I cannot fathom why he objects to these documents becoming public because it makes him look like there's more to the story that he doesn't wish to reveal.


There's only one explanation as far as I am concern...there's information that he wants to make damn sure it will never come out and bite him in the ass.

I wonder why some call him "Songbird"?

Perhaps the link below will help answer a few questions.

http://www.pensitoreview.com/2008/02/17/in-1992-pows-accused-mccain-of-collaborating-with-vietnamese/
 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 70
White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/24/2008 12:00:55 PM
I wonder if his excuse for not using the internet is that they didn't have an internet connection at the Hanoi Hilton...

I mean, it really is his response to everything anyone ever says. Even when it's an off-the-wall unrelated question. It almost reminds me of Giuliani answering every question with 9-11. Come to think of it, that would make an amazing ticket, from a reporter's perspective. Just get a two-sided rubber stamp with 9-11 on one side and POW on the other. The news media would never have to write anything else again. CNN could be replaced with a slideshow that just has images of a young McCain getting "interrogated" and planes crashing into the two towers with a ticker at the bottom saying what the question was supposed to be.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 72
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/28/2008 7:40:24 PM
^^^^ Exactly. Hell most Terrorist in Gitmo live better now then they ever did. I mean, they get health care, decent meals, clean clothing, dental. They even live better then some americans do right now.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 74
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/28/2008 8:35:25 PM
OMG that's the worst thing ever to happen to those poor terrorist that have been convicted of trying to kill more innocent lives. I got an idea lets all send them to your house, if you think their so innocent.

You don't have no damn facts on anything. Oh what you going to give me links to propagandist websites now to prove me wrong!

Weak minded people.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 76
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/28/2008 8:51:28 PM
So let me get this straight whipping mule. So if you think all of these teorrist at Gitmo are innocent then hell i'll ask you the same question, why don't you invite them to your house?

I clearly know what habeas corpus means, that's why we have Military tribunals in place.

Give me a break here are the facts, you giving me links to some uttlery biased website that opposes anything the right does, those aren't facts there smears.
 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 77
White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/28/2008 8:54:25 PM
Umm, actually to be convicted of something you have to have a trial first. The whole point of the opposition to places like Gitmo are that there aren't trials. And the only one that has been convicted of anything from Gitmo (so far) is a man who was convicted of being the driver of Bin Ladden years ago.

Also, this isn't an anti-torture thread. It's not a pro-iraqi thread. In fact, it isn't even a thread limited to liberals and "weak minds." The OP cited a conservative newspaper's editorial from years ago that states what was done to John McCain doesn't fit the definition of torture that John McCain supports in regard to other people.

It isn't about what is and isn't torture. It's about John McCain claiming to be a victim of torture, while denying that it's torture when it is done to someone else. It's about hypocrisy, not terrorism.

There is also the fact that while in Vietnam he says that he lied, broke down, and did propaganda for the Vietnamese. He has since insisted that it was all a lie in a moment of weakness to get less torture. However, on the senate floor, he said the exact same things that were done to him cause truthful and honest confessions from detainees. It is wholly inconsistent.

Please read at least some of the posts before commenting.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 78
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/28/2008 8:56:59 PM
Again i'll say the same thing this is what Military tribunals are for.

But your right lets get back on subject at hand before another thread gets deleted.

 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 81
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/28/2008 8:59:53 PM
Yeah you keep on believing those biased smear wesbites then.

Well then it's settled you disagree, I disagree, lets move foward and debate this on the proper topic before this one gets deleted.
 StrangerInTheHouse
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 83
White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/28/2008 9:15:36 PM


Yeah you keep on believing those biased smear wesbites then.

Why is it that every website that has something on it that disagrees with a republican gets called a "smear website"?

Certain individuals who claim to be independants and even might claim to be ex-democrats certainly act suspicious on here.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 86
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/28/2008 9:33:16 PM
Why is it that every website that has something on it that disagrees with a republican gets called a "smear website"?


Dude give me a break you got people on the left that do the same thing.

Bottom line is this it's pointless to try to convince either side. Everyone already has their mindset regardless if they are wrong or right.

If i was a republican i'd flat out say it, i got nothing to hide, i'm an Indy and that's the way i like it. Fact is i have blasted republican issues like i have democratic ones. You want facts, go look at the history of all the times that I have posted in this forum topic.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 88
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/28/2008 9:44:19 PM
Oh come on, abit you know i love ya.

I'm not some attack dog, I just like to debate, no hard feelings.
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 89
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 8/29/2008 11:45:35 AM
You know, Obama respects McCains service too much to bring it up in a debate. . . But it would be nice if he asked him how he could decide to do to others, that which was done to him. .

Oh yeah, its called hypocracy. . .
 thatswhatshesaid
Joined: 12/28/2007
Msg: 91
White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 9/1/2008 12:19:45 AM
Stuff like that is only torture if it happens to americans. The arabs can suck it up, but WE are a nation of whiners.

(I also think it's ironic that people feel sorry for mccain because of the dirty smear campaign in 2000. Is this the only reason the mccain base vsupports him? out of a sense of guilt, because they fell for those irrelevant and dirty tactics back in '00?)
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 92
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White House: John McCain was NOT Tortured in Vietnam
Posted: 9/1/2008 10:49:40 AM
Jahn McCain has said it is OK to torture. . .

If he believes torture is effective, then his own statements against America are valid! If he doesn't believe torture works, then why did he vote to allow it?

I don't question his service, but his judgment has been horrible on this, the one area he could have risen ABOVE all others.
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