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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?      Home login  
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 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 79
Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?Page 4 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
Ronjo, your synopsis of economic systems may fly with impressionable kids, but not around here with adults who know better.

A true capitalist believes in free competition and free markets, and does not seek to succeed by using government force or coercion.

You have just described the illegal drug trade more than anything else. They don't use government force or coercion, either-- just their own.

"Say 'Hello' to my little friend!!"
 eeeo4U
Joined: 6/25/2007
Msg: 80
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Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?
Posted: 9/2/2008 1:07:06 PM
Ronjo, they might criticize you, but I would like a world like the one you present...however there are some things that can't be efficiently produced by "proprietorships". I do wonder whether our current near-monopoly system is better, though. I am enthusiastic about, among other things such as what I mentioned before lol, warbirds, aka military aircraft. I remember the Century series of fighter planes produced during the Eisenhower administration, namely the F-100 through F-106. As I recall, two of those aircraft were produced by General Dynamics-Convair and the other four were produced by four different manufacturers. The F-100 came from North American (later NAR), which also produced the P-51 Mustang and the F-86 Sabre, and it was a company whose founder and guiding spirit was one Dutch Kindelberger. The F-101, which was best known in its reconaissance variant, was produced by McDonnell, later McDonnell-Douglas. The F-102 and F-106 were produced by General Dynamics-Convair and were designed in part by the brilliant John Northrup. The F-104 was made by Lockheed, now Lockheed Martin, and designed by Kelly Johnson, and the F-105 was made by Fairchild Republic, also known for the P-47 of WWII and the F-84 of Korean fame. There were lots of great airplanes that fell by the wayside, like North American's elegant F-103 and F-107, and the McDonnell F-110 which didn't make the cut in the Air Force, went back to the drawing board and was sold to the Navy, Marines and eventually the Air Force as the F-4 Phantom, workhorse of Vietnam. Back then we didn't put all our eggs in one basket, besides good paying aircraft jobs made the California dream possible for thousands of skilled workers who settled in the San Fernando valley...
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 81
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Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?
Posted: 9/2/2008 1:15:28 PM
Which is why we have a "mixed-economy"

70 parts Capitalism (Wal Mart), 10 parts proprietorships (Family businesses), 10 parts firms (Dactors and lawyers), 5 parts socialism (government), 4 parts barter (under the table), 1 part communism (Huderites, co-ops, etc.).
 ronjo58
Joined: 2/10/2006
Msg: 82
Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?
Posted: 9/2/2008 2:24:21 PM
Amazing,truly amazing.

How the message I sent is twisted into something way out of line with what was presented I have no clue. It is as if no one understands the concept of capitalism at all.
Everything I wrote is exactly what capitalism truly is. Freedom to either work at Wal Mart or own your own business and to produce,manufacture or grow any product you wish to sell to others. It is the essence of less government and more liberty to do the things you like to do to make your life a profitible,enjoyable happy one. The ability to raise your family with responsibilty,honesty and honor without anyone controlling or suppressing your talent and resolve to make a better life for you and your family.
Socialism has never worked nor will it ever work. To take away your right to control your own life in order to allow the government to control everything you read or watch on TV. Your right to send your children to the school of their choice. In other words, socialism is to meant to control the people and allow the government to do as they please. To give you what they say you need and deserve.
If your being an adult means socialism to you, then you are sadly mistaken. An adult is someone that knows how to think for themselves and act responsibly. A child is the one that needs to be watched over and controlled.
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 83
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Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?
Posted: 9/2/2008 2:40:18 PM
Ronjo, it wasn't twisted, you simply don't know what Capitalism is! I tried to explain it in laymans terms, but I was not successful.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 84
Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?
Posted: 9/2/2008 2:51:08 PM

If your being an adult means socialism to you, then you are sadly mistaken. An adult is someone that knows how to think for themselves and act responsibly. A child is the one that needs to be watched over and controlled.

If this is in reference to my last post, you have as much talent for twisting messages as anyone.

Your post does a good job of describing what you hope capitalism is and what you hope socialism (which you incorrectly conflate with communism) is. But the world as it is in reality is markedly not so ideal. You construct a simplistic, black and white choice with your capitalism vs. socialism explanation. In reality, both have good and bad points. Capitalism isn't all lovey dovey good times and socialism isn't all Big Brother and goose-stepping as you wish to portray them. Capitalism needs some socialism and governmental regulation in order to be a viable national system in the long term (which is what the US does). As I said, the drug trade and the Mafia are examples of pure free enterprise, and I doubt you are touting that "ideal."

What I think you are really trying to say is that you wish for less socialism, not the absence of it-- that is, if you can bring yourself to admit that socialism isn't all bad.
 ronjo58
Joined: 2/10/2006
Msg: 85
Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?
Posted: 9/2/2008 3:20:55 PM
I have to laugh. I try so hard to abide by the rules in this forum and not allow my comments refer to the messenger but to the message. I plan to follow that as much as possible and not allow myself to give into the temptation of being able to give back what I get.
I do agree that social programs are neccessary but not to the extent that it allows young healthy people to become totally dependant upon them. And yes, Government regulation is neccessary to establish laws in a free market world.
I was not referring to the last two posters as being childish. My entire line of thought was in answer,originally, to a previous posters challenge to post something that would present my message in the same way the other poster had done. However I was trying to include the last two posters, in the definition I was presenting, about a preference for a free market society. I do my best to post my opinions in an adult way that invites other opinions without the personal involvement. I also base my opinions not solely upon my own definitions but upon those in history recent and past that have defined it better than I could. I have always been a charitible person and as a consequence I have worked in service to my fellow man in community service.
Just because my opinions are expressed strongly, does not mean I am an ogre or am trying to put anyone down.
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 86
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Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?
Posted: 9/2/2008 3:43:15 PM
Pretending that there is a huge difference in the basic ideas of proprietorships and capitalism is kind of silly. The one difference in proprietorship that I know of is it means "one owner." By that definition Mom & Pop bussinesses or two brothers in partnership must be evil... they are capitalists. I may be wrong, I'm too lazy to look for my dictionary right now, but I have a feeling somebody will correct me if needed.

I'm no fan of big business either. If an objective person were to take a look at why big business is so prevalent nowadays one conclusion (and not the only reason by any means) that can be drawn is that unions are part of the problem. When labour costs soared due to unions it made it almost impossible for small business to compete. And then automation comes along and further makes it harder on the little guy. But some feel people should not have to do menial labour and the world would be a better place if we could all have careers, doing paperwork I suppose?
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 87
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Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?
Posted: 9/2/2008 5:24:47 PM
You know, I was going to provide an overview of economic theory in as simple (layman's) terms as possible. . . I was supposed to do it this weekend, but I got sidetracked and lost the thread as well as the free time I thought I would have. . . I am moving soon, so I had to get ready for that.

However, I will try to do so this coming weekend, I just need to find a way to do it that won't violate the forum rules. . . It was in response to a couple of the conservatives that I speak to on a regular basis. . . Perhaps it will stimulate a better understanding, if we have at least some modicum of common knowledge, as a point of reference.
Sincerely,
Ex I
 CharlesEdm
Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 88
Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?
Posted: 9/2/2008 5:32:28 PM

Capitalism means freedom.


Bzzzzzzt, You really shouldn't declare things that are so self evidently wrong. Capitalism has existed in many dictatorships.


It means you get to decide what to do with what you earn and own.


Well that is true.


Under socialism, the government tells you what you will produce.


Under communism it does, under socialism they might tell you you can't produce your widget and dump toxic waste into the nearby river, or produce widgets that cause cancer in children.


An attack on capitalism is an attack on the heart and soul of Christian ethics. To say “I do not support capitalism” is to say “I support the use of violence to get what I want."


Man you really don't know what you're talking about. Whats the one group that Jesus gets angry at? Bankers, who does he say has a tiny chance of going to heaven? Rich people.

The fact is is that i have socialist leanings, but I support capitalism, I just support regulation.


Capitalist countries are free and prosperous,
Socialist countries are enslaved and impoverished.
And yet, virtually everyone in the United States has been trained in government schools and by a government-dominated media to believe that socialism is better than capitalism, and that no economy can succeed without some socialism.


Really? Western Europe is impovrished, tell that to the people of Iceland, Sweden, France, Germany. ect.

As for capitalist countries that are suffering, how about you do some studying of the opening of African and south American states to the free market, and how it has often failed in those countries. capitalism isn't magic.


Socialism is basically what we began the revolutionary war over


LOL!


Today the stock markets are going nuts with the rise of the dollar and the falling price of oil. It seems the recession is just about over, the housing market is also rising again.
In spite of the do nothing democratic majority in congress. So now what? All your socialistic bs is off the table!


Heh you've shown a poor understanding of economics and politics, and have conflated the two like they're the same thing, now you've moved one step further and don't seem to understand current events.

Here look up "Most fillibusters history" and they'll tell you the Republican congress broke a record in 2007, with a year to spare.

Really it annoys me when people can't be bothered to actually structure a single argument this kind of post we just saw is what happens when somebody is upset, and not being able to make a strong argument throws a bunch of random shit at what they think socialism is. Which is why the post doesn't have a single subject, it's all over the place and random.

Finally, it doesn't actually reply to what anybody else is saying, it's simply a method of ignoring the refuted aspects of previous arguments and repeat them in a louder voice.
 StrangerInTheHouse
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 89
Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?
Posted: 9/2/2008 7:16:52 PM

To take away your right to control your own life in order to allow the government to control everything you read or watch on TV.

Yes... but nobody in the US is advocating that . You're talking about Josef Stalin's government, and that actually didn't have anything to do with socialism. It was a tyrranical dictatorship, like any other tyrannical monarch before communism was even thought of. That had absolutely nothing to do with communism, except that Stalin claimed he was doing that when he really wasn't.
Many republicans are calling democrats "socialists" and it's got nothing to do with that at all.
Reasonable regulation is one thing... like requiring homebuyers to put up a 20% down payment or collateral or paying extra credit points in interest...But that's not socialism. That's just regulation based on common sense!


Socialism has never worked nor will it ever work.

"Socialism" is an idea who's time has come and gone... just like what you call "capitalism" (laissez-faire [unregulated]] economics) is just a relic from the "age of ideologies" in the second half of the nineteenth and first half of the twentieth centuries, before the Great Depression, the failure of China's "great leap forward" and Lenin's honest attempt to make Russia a "communist" state. None of those purist ideologies ever worked.
The only types of governments that are able to weather the peaks and troughs of the business cycle are ones who hybridize themselves, using problem solving techniques of either or both systems.. or even others, to solve their economic problems.
Utilitarianism is what I guess you'd have to call it.
"Communism" and "capitalism" as pure economic forms don't exist anymore, except in backward countries like North Korea and nations that still permit slavery, like Equitorial Guinea.

BTW: I don't hate republicans... I hate Bush, Cheney and people who manipulate voters who believe they're doing the right thing... but I don't hate the common people like me, only they're different in that they believe the republicans are their greatest hope.
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 90
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Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?
Posted: 9/2/2008 7:55:59 PM
Apparently my definition of proprietorship must have been correct, I'm sure somebody would've let me know otherwise. Here's another I'm less sure of; I think I've read somewhere that Wal-Mart is completely owned by one family. So it could almost be called a "Mom & Pop" proprietorship? That day they were teaching economics at my shcool, well I missed those four years. Could someone tell me how a billion dollar business owned by one person isn't a proprietorship?

Where I live we are still blessed with a strong economy. Mostly due to the fact that Alberta sits on decent sized oil & natural gas reserves. Because of the oilfield several hundreds (probably thousands) of small businesses have grown and even thrived in my small city of 50,000.

Our government has enforced some of the strictest safety policies in the world. In the last 5 years the amount of redtape and tickets and safety programs needed to start a small business is almost insurmountable to anybody trying to strike out on their own. The OHS division of our government has made it so all oil companies require that any small business performing work for them to have a company "safety policy"

I worked on drilling rigs for 15 years and have seen at least twenty different companies' safety policies (just a booklet an employee must read, or pretend to read , and then sign.) These policies are all generic and every one I've seen reads like a form letter. It should be a simple matter of going to a print shop and have several dozen booklets made, right? Not quite. It has to be an approved agent who will boilerplate up a booklet with your name on it. At a cost of $5000. And there are usually half a dozen other training programs all employees must recieve at the employers expense.

Have these safety policies saved any lifes? Very, very doubtful. Has this made it harder for small business to compete? Absolutely. Has it generated employment for safety concious liberal paper pushers? Absolutely.

Just a simple layman's version of economics for you all.
 StrangerInTheHouse
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 91
Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?
Posted: 9/2/2008 8:06:45 PM


Have these safety policies saved any lifes? Very, very doubtful.

On what do you base this judgment?
How many died before the policies were put in place?
How many after?
You shouldn't just pull conclusions like that out of your underside. Let's see some evidence!
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 92
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Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?
Posted: 9/2/2008 8:29:38 PM
When I said "safety policies" I was talking about the little generic booklets that they make you sign.

When I first started on the rigs it was only the oil companies who had these books to sign . If a rig went to work for a new oilcompany the company representitive would bring round these little booklets to all the rig hands.

I worked for two years on the rigs before I went to my first training course (H2S). It was 8 years after that before they required me to take any additional training courses. A green roughneck first setting foot on the rig floor will usually have at least half a dozen tickets under his belt today. Some of the training is actually good, but more of it is just thought up by people with too much time on their hands. Drilling safety has actually went down, but thats mostly because of the recent boom experienced hands are harder to find.

A small portion of that training has helped, but those booklets have never saved anyones' life. I was there.
 ronjo58
Joined: 2/10/2006
Msg: 93
Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?
Posted: 9/3/2008 3:25:23 AM
Bzzzzzzt, You really shouldn't declare things that are so self evidently wrong. Capitalism has existed in many dictatorships.

Please post your source on this comment. Every Socialistic Dictator, I have heard of has controlled the markets,including Hugo Chavez.

Under communism it does, under socialism they might tell you you can't produce your widget and dump toxic waste into the nearby river, or produce widgets that cause cancer in children.

This is where I agree. Regulation of the free amrket for these very things is neccessary. But regulation laws only. Not complete government control of the business, which is what I refer to.

Man you really don't know what you're talking about. Whats the one group that Jesus gets angry at? Bankers, who does he say has a tiny chance of going to heaven? Rich people.

Jesus was angry at the money lenders for doing business at the temple. I don't remember a problem with them if they had a business elsewhere. Perhaps reading the bible might help on that one. In its full context. Jesus said it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven but he didn't say it was impossible.lol

As for capitalist countries that are suffering, how about you do some studying of the opening of African and south American states to the free market, and how it has often failed in those countries. capitalism isn't magic.

I suggest the same for the commenter on this one.
South Africa. hmmm. Whose President serves a prison term? South Africa was one of the best until it fell to the present system.
North Africa is pure turmoil. South American Countries are always fighting from within against communist rebels and corruption. But there are countries there that are suceeding under capitalism. Venezuela,however is not one of them. You should check up on that one too.

Heh you've shown a poor understanding of economics and politics, and have conflated the two like they're the same thing, now you've moved one step further and don't seem to understand current events.

here is my source, lets see yours:
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/
us-stock-futures-jump-oil/story.aspx?
guid=0702020D-9469-48F3-A3EE-8E0D7B106E79&dist=SecMostCommented

You know, what annoys me is that there are those who will only read what is important to them, without looking at the big picture. they will believe some college professor who really doesn't understand the free markets and passes out literature that condemns free markets,because of their socialistic beliefs. If a Professor was really smart on real world markets instead of just the concepts, he would be out there making money by the handful, instead of teaching class.
I am going to abide by forum rules and not participate in a flame war. I made my points. I am out of here.
 CharlesEdm
Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 94
Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?
Posted: 9/3/2008 4:48:51 AM
Sigh Rojo, how about you start a new thread instead of trying to derail this one. I'm just going to point out one thing.


Please post your source on this comment. Every Socialistic Dictator, I have heard of has controlled the markets,including Hugo Chavez.


See that little word in there? Yes every socialist dictator has controled the markets. Franco and Hitler who were fascists (not socialist) had a capitalist system and were actively counter socialist, including breaking up unions and agressively supressing communist parties.

If you want another example? Pinochet. Who instituted capitalist reforms, while killing a great many of his own people.

Anyway, don't reply, lets let this rest, and you can start your own thread rather than having this conversation further de-rail things.
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 95
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Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?
Posted: 9/3/2008 4:55:30 AM
The term "liberal do-gooder" is probably seen as a slur by most democrats (admittedly most simes it is probably meant that way). However my opinion is that it feels like a very accurate description. Not saying I've NEVER made any attempts at nose tweaking...

I think a lot of conservative thinkers wonder why liberals seem to feel the need to protect everybody. I've already gave examples of how I've felt resentment towards my so-called protecters (quite honestly anytime I experience any government interference in my day-to-day activities it just... well it really irks me.)

We wonder why a male democrat would be such a strong proponent of pro-choice. And why would a straight person give a damn about gay marriage. For my own part neither of these two issues are very likely to ever have any effect on my life, and they won't change my vote. And whether your pro-choice or pro-life it is unlikely that any party will be able to close abortion clinics. And most people who aren't exteremists realize this. And how would legalizing gay-marriages be able to erase anyones' homophobia? I suspect that it's really the bigotry that bothers you so much, no?

As for compassion for the down-trodden, well I'm all for that. But I realize that often the people portraying themselves as down-trodden could be more accurately described as under-motivated. I know this because, being a bluecollar grunt, you guys have placed me amongst the poor huddled masses that need to be saved.
 CharlesEdm
Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 96
Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?
Posted: 9/3/2008 4:58:41 AM

We wonder why a male democrat would be such a strong proponent of pro-choice. And why would a straight person give a damn about gay marriage. For my own part neither of these two issues are very likely to ever have any effect on my life, and they won't change my vote


All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 97
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Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?
Posted: 9/3/2008 5:02:06 AM
If you can suggest an EFFECTIVE means of battling bigotry, I'll be out there taking up the good fight alongside of you.
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 98
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Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?
Posted: 9/3/2008 5:07:19 AM
And thre are plenty of women who are anti abortion, I've seen some in these very forums say they're voting democrat. Maybe we should let them fight it out amongst themselves?
 CharlesEdm
Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 99
Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?
Posted: 9/3/2008 5:27:59 AM

If you can suggest an EFFECTIVE means of battling bigotry, I'll be out there taking up the good fight alongside of you.


Listen, the methodology that has been used over the last 40 years has taken the USA from having seperate drinking fountains, to the possibility of having the first american of black descent in power in history.

Similar effects have occured here, there will always be hold outs of course, but that is exactly what they are. Gay bashing now generally refers to people saying bad things about gays, it used to refer to something far more literal.

Want something more effective? Cut the sociopathic "if it doesn't effect me what do I care attitude" would be a start.


And thre are plenty of women who are anti abortion, I've seen some in these very forums say they're voting democrat. Maybe we should let them fight it out amongst themselves?


If we did abortion wouldn't be an issue actually, women are much more likely to be pro choice statistically than men.

But I want you to think long and hard about something, look at the topic, have we strayed from the topic?
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 100
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Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?
Posted: 9/3/2008 5:37:26 AM
I guess we've strayed away from talking about economics...

Re-reading msg. 117 it seems somewhat pertinent as to why democrats and republicans don't get along. Which topic were you talking about?
 laxref41
Joined: 7/20/2008
Msg: 101
Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?
Posted: 9/3/2008 10:01:59 AM
Our great country has moved so far to the conservative right that we are truly in danger. Forty years ago, Barry Goldwater ran for president as the republican representative... he was known as "Mr. Conservative"... but now, if you read his policies... Barack Obama is more conservative than he was... never mind where John McCain stands on issues!

If McCain wins this election and he gets to appoint two conservative Supreme Court justices, you may well see a lot more than Roe v. Wade overturned... we will have mandatory Christian prayer in school... you may see the integration of the Christian Church and Government... loss of your rights under the First Amendment.

In effect, we will take a step closer to a civil war.

Now ask yourself a question... if you were a Muslim in a Muslim nation... watching the most powerful military in the world become fanatically Christian... what would you do?
 dragonpat
Joined: 9/29/2006
Msg: 102
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Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?
Posted: 9/3/2008 11:17:00 AM
First off, there is no way McCain could get prayer in school with out a radical change in the attitudes in this nation. Second, if we are going to base our descisions on how the muslims in a muslim nation would respond to what we do, then we should just all convert. Religious freedom is a basic belief in this country. Regardless of who is talking, even radiacal right memebers wouldnt want a "state religion" in this nation. THe first ammendment is too strong in this country to allow it.
What these posts have shown me though is that the a lot of those who are aligned with one of the two parties are too adament against the other party to work with them for the betterment of this nation.
The Bush Bashers and those who call everything the Dems do Socialism, just wont meet in the middle i think.
Maybe that civil war wouldnt be a bad idea, if it got the two extreams out of power and let those who want to work with each other for a better america into power.
 exodusi1
Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 103
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Do Democrats and Republicans really hate eachother?
Posted: 9/3/2008 1:54:42 PM
It is pretty much Purple. . .
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