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 faith2565
Joined: 3/25/2006
Msg: 43
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History
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?Page 2 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
No we are not!

Obama/Biden 08
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 44
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History
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?
Posted: 8/28/2008 5:16:58 AM
tim,
simple fact is that most economists do not agree that a minimum wage is bad for the economy. only the neo-con supply siders like alan greenspan.
Eric, Respectfully, there is no consensus among economists in either support or opposition to minimum wage and its impact on the economy. FYI The term “neocon” or neoconservative was originally used as a criticism against liberals who had "moved to the right". Michael Harrington, a democratic socialist, coined the usage of neoconservative in a 1973 Dissent magazine article concerning welfare policy. I have never subscribed to the economic or social policies of liberalism, nor do I believe have Greenspan, so the term neo-con, or neoconservative is an inaccurate categorization….


you've repeated some very basic myths that you can toss out the window foerever if you just look at the actual data.

1. increasing the minimum wage is bad for the economy and will result in less jobs.
Conversely, there is no consensus among economists that minimum wage has direct impact on reduction of unemployment, to the contrary, most economists identify that variables not considered such as technology, population increases, and the exclusion of self-employed, service workers, and farm workers, etc. distort the current “textbook” models.


since 1960, the minimum wage has increased 14 times. in the year following the increase, there were only 2 years where there wasn't a job increase.
Since 1960, the population has increased from 190,000,000 to over 300,000,000, Color me wrong, but at a minimum that would result in a 33% minimum net increase in demand for goods and services as well as a similar increase in the tax base without any government intervention whatsoever. What has been experienced is the natural capitalist trend of supply and suppliers increasing to meet demand, not a mathematical anomaly that proves higher taxes and increased labor costs equates to more disposable income in any tax bracket. The fact that minimum wage has not had a more detrimental impact on the economy is the anomaly, and NAFTA and outsourcing made sure that would never be the case.


so, you can stop repeating this myth, the data shows that it's not true.
Again, respectfully, saying it isn't true because it conflicts with your belief is not the same as proving it to be inaccurate...

if we adjusted the 1963 minimum wage for inlflation, the current minimum wage would be well over $8 and hour. so, increasing the minimum wage to over $8 per hour right now would not constitute an increase in real dollars, it's simply necessary to maintain the status quo to keep up with inflation.
And as my research demonstrated, the cost of basic staples has followed a parallel increase, no reasonable argument can be made that the two "phenomenons" are unrelated.


keep in mind that prices do keep up with inflation, which means that profit does keep up with inflation. if wages don't keep up with inflation, that means that corporations are pocketing the difference.
Apparently you have failed to consider that costs in producing goods and services, to include labor are the very basis for inflation calculators....


2. tax cuts are better for the economy.

as mentioned, most of the taxes are (were) paid by the rich and corporations.
in the 60's the top tax rate was 90% and the top corporate tax rate was about 40%
in the 70's the top tax rate was 70% and the top corporate tax rate was about 40%
in the 80's the top tax rate was 50% and the top corporate tax rate was about 20%
in the 90's the top tax rate was 37% and the top corporate tax rate was about 20%
in the 2000's the top tax rate was 35% and the top corporate tax rate was about 20%
You have made my point, tax revenues in real dollars have dramatically increased over the past 40 years while the tax burden has been eased on the top 10%


the average annual GDP growth in the 60's was greater than the 70's
the average annual GDP growth in the 70's was greater than the 80's
the average annual GDP growth in the 80's was greater than the 90's
the average annual GDP growth in the 90's was greater than the 2000's

The population has increased at a rate consistent with the changes (increase) in GDP. Your premise does not consider that an increase in market demand as well as the increase in market labor is primarily responsible for the increase in GDP.


so, simply put, the maxim that lower taxes is better for the economy is FALSE.
the version that you are suggesting (the supply side) has been in effect for 35 years and the result is obvious.

It might be worth sacrificing wage levels and GDP growth if Americans had an improved standard of living.
But Americans do have an improved standard of living... The average size of a new home has increased by over 75% in the past 40+ years, central heat and air are standard, and not the exceptional luxuries they were in 1960. Microwaves, frost free refrigerators, multiple color televisions, multiple telephones, personal computers, etc. are indisputable evidence to that fact.


the reality is americans have less buying power, a negative savings rate, less healthcare, more poverty, more wealth polarization, less education and educational opportunities, less social services, work more hours, etc...
It would seem you have countered your argument, these things exist in spite of the existence of minimum wage, and your insistence it has had a positive impact on the economy. Buying power, the only true benchmark with which to measure, with respect to unskilled workers, has not increased, but actually slightly diminished...
 faith2565
Joined: 3/25/2006
Msg: 45
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History
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?
Posted: 8/28/2008 5:49:40 PM
The answer is NO!
 trinity818
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 47
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?
Posted: 12/1/2011 2:41:08 PM
Most definately not.

Interesting though...this thread was started in 2008 and everyone was posting about how much worse things were than 4 years prior to that.

Here we are...3 to 4 years later and things have gotten EVEN worse.

I understand that the economic recovery is a very complex issue. I think the only thing most economists agree on is that it hinges on consumer confidence.
 VGLGuySksFun
Joined: 10/12/2011
Msg: 48
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?
Posted: 12/26/2011 2:01:30 PM
We are most definitely better off today than 4 years ago.

Our economy is at least now stable and not leading us into a great depression... we are leaving afghanistan and iraq which will save us hundreds of billions of dollars and we have a forthcoming public healthcare option which will put downward pressure on the private healthcare insurance monopoly. I cannot blame the current administration for Europe but, Europe has significantly affected our economy, keeping corporations reluctant to invest and unemployment higher than it would be otherwise.
All in all, considering the hand that was dealt in 2008 and the purposeful lack of cooperation to negotiate on any issue by congressional Republicans, I think the result is pretty spectacular.
 VGLGuySksFun
Joined: 10/12/2011
Msg: 49
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?
Posted: 1/3/2012 8:30:24 AM
"Here we are...3 to 4 years later and things have gotten EVEN worse. "

What is worse today? The only thing i can think of is the deficit is higher.
 trinity818
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 50
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?
Posted: 1/3/2012 9:06:08 AM
Florida's economy is definately NOT better than in 2008. We rely on tourism and growth. There is virtually no new construction. Our unemployment is still at 10%.

I'm no economist, but all I have to do is look around me to see businesses shuttered all over the place. People are moving out of the area because there are very few jobs to be found.

I can't speak for your area or the country as a whole. But I most certainly can tell you what is going on in Manatee County, Florida. As it is much worse than 2008.
 Stray__Cat
Joined: 7/12/2006
Msg: 52
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?
Posted: 7/16/2012 5:00:55 PM
How long did it take for things to get better after 1929?
Same deal now.
Neither party wants to admit that we are in a depression.
The closest term they will use is Balance Sheet Recession.
(which means the same frickin thing.)

Republicans can't go there as they would have to admit Bu$h policies caused it.
Democrats cannot say it either as they would have to admit their policies have not cured it.

I fear...come fall....it may become undeniable by both.
 RIPTIDE59
Joined: 11/9/2011
Msg: 53
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?
Posted: 7/17/2012 6:29:23 AM
Actually, I am. Thanks to POF, I have met a very cool lady. Due to the bad housing market, my business has been moderately successful. Life is good. I'm blessed. Unfortunately, not everyone can make the same statements. I am reading and getting into conversations with people losing their health insurance. With the "threat" of impending "o'care", I'm hearing countless stories of working people losing employer sponsored health insurance. The common practice is to give the employee a dollar an hour raise and the send them out the "health care door" to "suck off the government". needless to say , this is far to costly for a working person. I'm sure this practice will exponentially increase as we move closer to fruition of government control of health care. Not being biased here, Romney care offers the same coercive nonsense. Well folks, you asked for it. Carry on comrades.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 56
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?
Posted: 7/17/2012 8:44:00 PM
You know what you can do now? You can highlight words, right click it and it gives you the option of doing a google search for those words. Like for instance if you did that on "Unemployment in January of 2009" for instance.

You know what else? First site listed takes you to the Bureau of Labour Statistics, where you would find that unemployment had been getting worse every month over the previous year. You know what else? You can't be trusted to get the simplest things right.
 Doremi_Fasolatido
Joined: 2/14/2009
Msg: 60
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History
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?
Posted: 7/18/2012 3:08:16 PM
I'm about the same as 4 yrs. ago. The stock mkt. averages and my pension fund is just about where it was BEFORE the stock market tankage of '08.

The market dropped so low in '08 that it bankrupt or depleted many pension/retirement funds. My fund was one of those and I am now working extra years to make up for the loss. I'd be happy to step aside and let the next generation have my job if I could depend on the investments being stable.

I'd also be happy to state there is no way, no how I'd ever vote for Mitt Romney. His ideas would just be a revisit of what led to the downturn of '08. People my age who want to retire don't need those policies. Younger workers who are now training to take my job don't need them either.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 61
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History
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?
Posted: 7/18/2012 7:09:29 PM
YES!

YES!

And I can't wait for the PPACA to kick in entirely.

OMG... it's going to make so many more jobs!

We'll need more doctors to open (re-open) offices and they will need ...

... more nurses

... more front office staff

... more billing staff

More labs will have to open and they will need ...

... more phlebotomists

... more front office staff

... more billing staff

More people will need transportation to and from work, so they will need

... more cars sold

... more repair workshops

... more oil change businesses

... more tire dealers

... more tire repair/rotation shops

People will be able to buy more food instead of having to live on Food Stamps and depend on free school lunches and breakfasts and so they will need ...

... more grocery stores

... more cashiers

... more people to stock the shelves

... more trucks and drivers to move the groceries from warehouses to the stores

All the people who are now working will need "work clothes" (instead of sitting at home in sweats) and so they will need ...

... places to buy the clothes

... more people to wait on them

... more cashiers

... more people to do payroll and customer service

Well ... all I can say is that I'm looking forward to it.

The more people who work, the more will pay into social security and that means I can retire (give a younger person my job) and actually collect the social security as long as I live ... and believe me my family has a history of longevity and do not die young.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 63
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?
Posted: 7/19/2012 8:41:14 AM

We are much worse off now than when Barack Hussein Obama II took office.


The Dow is more than 50% up from the low level that Bush left behind after his friends sucked all the money out of the system. The rich people seem to be doing just fine. Tax the hell out of them!
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 64
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History
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?
Posted: 7/19/2012 8:48:12 AM

I thought leftists thought trickle down economics is all a bag of horsesh!t.
Actually, what I was describing has little or nothing to do with "trickle-down" anything.

What I described is "trickle-up" ... because it starts with the middle class/poor and actually trickles up . Of course once the 1% sees how well it's working, then they will also greedily want to get a hold of the action and it will be all we can do to keep them out of it until we poor people gain a little ground.

I'm certain though, once the 1% gets a whiff of us gaining a little, they will want to jump in quickly and take all the profit to be had.

The point I was trying to make is that enforcing and enacting the PPACA will create jobs ... will put people to work ... will provide income for people to buy their insurance ... will not create situations that we have today with people losing everything they have because of illness that might have even been preventible if they had just had proper health care to begin with.

I don't know too many "haves" who really care about that. Their solution is just to let people die. The "haves" want to force women to keep giving birth ... no matter what ... but don't want to help the babies after their poor mothers have given birth to them.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 66
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?
Posted: 7/19/2012 2:02:50 PM

George Bush's Economic policies SET A RECORD of 52 STRAIGHT MONTHS of JOB CREATION!

...and if Obama grew government at the rate Bush did the unemployment rate woudl be pretty close, but then the talking would be freaking out about growing government.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 67
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?
Posted: 7/19/2012 2:38:04 PM
George Bush was the first President since Hoover to preside over a net loss in jobs. Worst President ever.
 GreenThumbz18
Joined: 4/25/2012
Msg: 69
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?
Posted: 7/24/2012 9:00:02 AM
I am better off now than 4 years ago.
My daughter is now 19, so I don't have to pay child support for her. I don't have a girlfriend or date much, so I save a lot of money there too. I have become more frugal in my daily life and buy almost everything secondhand.
I turned half of my yard into a vegetable garden. Water is expensive and I don't want to grow grass, instead I use my time and resources to grow organic produce, which makes me healthier.
I also cook more, I don't eat at restaurants as much. I can buy high-quality food and make it at home, so I spend my money there.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 70
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?
Posted: 7/24/2012 9:31:13 AM
I am not better off than four years ago. As a matter of fact, I am not better off than five years ago. Being a victim of the Bush recession, when millions of older workers were cut from the payrolls by callous administrators with the covenient excuse provided by the disaster created by Bush and his friends. Even though I am not better off now, I wouldn't vote for a republican even if they offered to pay me a large amount of money.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 72
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?
Posted: 7/24/2012 9:08:47 PM
^^^ I'm not sure how credible it is to quote a blog post that is quoted in a post from another internet forum. By that, I mean not very.

You know the ones the Democrats took over 15 months prior.

Just for the record, here is the next post after the one you quote from:

The timetable of who was in power is accurate, but you'd have to be a pretty uninformed to really believe that the current economic crisis was built up in 15 months.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 74
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?
Posted: 7/24/2012 10:03:38 PM
Oh, I've never said the economy is all Bush's fault, although I'm pretty sure you would if he were a Dem instead.

Putting the current economy at any single person's or entity's doorstep is what YOU (as well as others) are trying to do, not me.

Edit: and again, another partisan blogger's post, even if it's gone viral, is not a compelling synopsis of the situation.
 GreenThumbz18
Joined: 4/25/2012
Msg: 75
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?
Posted: 10/4/2012 3:41:38 PM
It will take some adjustments, but in America we had better learn
to live like people do in other unstable countries.
Today in SoCal there was a run on gasoline, the street price jumped about 50 cents in 6 hours, and half the stations are now out of
regular. Build more refineries? What a silly idea !!!
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 76
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?
Posted: 10/4/2012 3:49:20 PM

Build more refineries? What a silly idea !!!

Who do you want to build more refineries?

Do you think the government should do it?

Are you one of those socialists, that think that the government should be doing everything?


So then ask yourself, well then why doesn't private industry do it, and when you figure out that it is in their own best interest not to over produce, as it keeps prices high you will understand the type of thievery that is going on and the whole market is manipulated by the producers and then you add the speculators to the mix and the everyone gets screwed.


So you are not better off because Obama will not do anything about it and the irony is if he did you guy would be the first ones yelling that it is wrong to place controls on industry and it is just more big government.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 78
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?
Posted: 10/4/2012 8:33:17 PM

Build more refineries? What a silly idea !!!


Why don't you ask the GOP (who are co-opted by the oil industry) why they won't build more refineries!
I'll dumb it down for ya! its the same reason why DeBeers diamond Co won't mine anymore diamonds than they absolutely have to; that is to prevent an overflow that might drop the price per carat!

Do you really think that the oil companies really wanna sell you gas at a disccount! Duuuuh!
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 82
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History
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?
Posted: 10/5/2012 3:00:24 PM

the government can use it's 'eminent domain' privilege to get the land and donate it to the company


That's open to question. Both the federal government and the states have authority under the Fifth Amendment to take private land for *public* use, as long as they pay just compensation. Courts used to enforce the public use requirement pretty strictly. But by 1954, when the Supreme Court gave the green light to urban renewal in Berman v. Parker, it was interpreting"public use" pretty broadly. Later decisions diluted he public use requirement even further, until in Kelo v. New London, it seemed to disappear.

But Kelo has been very unpopular, and the Court knows it. Now, there would need to be a pretty big fig leaf to hide what was really going on in the kind of deal you're talking about. The private use part of the Taking Clause may have had a lot of holes punched in it, but even so, a state can't openly condemn land owned by one private person so it can give it to another private person.

I suspect the federal and state environmental regulations that apply to oil refineries are so burdensome they make it prohibitively expensive to build them in many places. I've worked on enough environmental impact reports and studies to know how often all sorts of fantastically detailed, obscure technical issues are raised to block projects, or to delay them enough to make them not worth building. Mr. Obama and Mr. Chu have made it clear from the start that the administration's policy is to increase the price of gasoline, so it shouldn't be a big surprise it is so expensive.
 mrcs84
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 84
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History
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?
Posted: 10/7/2012 8:11:22 AM
Are You Better Off Now Than You Were Four Years Ago?


Yes. I actually have job security, health insurance, a retirement plan, I have the means to save, and I should be 100% debt free (student loans) sometime in 2014.

I'm not trying to hold down 2 stressful jobs and go to school at the same time. Now I just have 1 low-stress job. I also have quite a strong emotional support system.
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