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 HedonistDrifter
Joined: 7/23/2005
Msg: 204
Creation vs EvolutionPage 3 of 156    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)
It's amazing just how rapidly the human species is evolving...A few years ago I rented a flat in Germany, the house was built in 1680, one of the most annoying things about the place was the doorways were all about 6'...Well I'm 6'1" which isn’t extremely tall by today’s standards, but it is obviously 6 or more inches taller than the “norm” a few hundred years ago...
 Dei Gratia
Joined: 7/28/2005
Msg: 214
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/26/2005 10:57:19 PM
Even Darwin knew that it is not possible there has to be Intelligence to create something from nothing
God created the world we see and the heavens and stars, Earth is the centre of the universe. from God's eye too. Think about this one for a bit.
 Dei Gratia
Joined: 7/28/2005
Msg: 216
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/26/2005 11:03:26 PM
And if he did does it support the theory in anyway how did Genes come to be? from nothing now?
 Dei Gratia
Joined: 7/28/2005
Msg: 218
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/26/2005 11:21:01 PM
You speak of dimensions of time humm but which can you define?

There are seven levels of this actually what I always thought but apparently there are eleven for us and the twelfth well is it I wonder?

Psalm 19:1 emphatically states: ‘The heavens declare the glory of God; and the expanse proclaims His handiwork’. When we look at the awesome wonder of the stars set in space, including those we are only just now finding out about via powerful telescopes, we should be reminded of the Awesome One who created them (Romans 1:20).
 Dei Gratia
Joined: 7/28/2005
Msg: 220
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/27/2005 12:08:08 AM
Of course there are answers just seek knock and be heard the answers will come to you.

When is something only God can revel for it is all for his purpose but I will say this for sure He will answer your questions.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 222
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/27/2005 12:23:28 PM
"Is evolution the same thing as 'survival of the fittest'?"

No. Evolution is the change in gene frequencies in a population over time. There are several known mechanisms by which this occurs. The first is natural selection, a.k.a. survival of the fittest. Organisms with a better chance of survival tend to live longer and have more opportunities to mate and pass on their genes. Some others are mutation, sexual selection, and genetic drift.

"But because they are no longer here does that mean that they 'evolved' or just simply ceased to exist because it was a bad mutation that couldn't stand the test of time?"

Either way a species went extinct (for any number of factors). Sometimes they go extinct because they evolved into a different species.

"Why is it that when evolutionists are stating their 'facts' that they say that evolution and the creation of life are two different subjects?"

Notice how evolution is defined above. There was no such thing as evolution before genes existed. I don't know that life requires genes. I suppose it's possible that genes existed before life and that life arose after a certain combination of genes arose. I guess it depends on what you mean by life.

"Within the 'science' of evolution is plausibility accepted as being equivalent to evidence?"

I don't know why you put science in quotes above. Evolution is a science. It makes testable predictions about what we can and cannot observe in nature. So far not a single prediction has been shown to be false and many predictions have been later observed to be true. This is quite contrary to Creationism which makes no testable predictions (since any observation can be explained by claiming God did it for reasons we cannot understand).

We must make a distinction between evidence and proof. We can prove evolution occurs today. We have observed it (recall how it's defined above). Even Creationists accept that evolution occurs, but they call this microevolution in hopes that people will think that it's somehow not real evolution. When we make a claim that humans have a common ancestor with chimps then we're making a claim that has no proof (and never will unless we discover time travel). Similarly I can't prove that WWII happened. But we can gather evidence in its favor. If we're related we'd expect similar genes, body structure, fossils becoming more similar as we look further back in the fossil record, and the lack of human and chimp fossils earlier than their alleged common ancestor lived. For example if we found a chimp fossil that could be dated to 1 billion years ago the entire theory of evolution would collapse. When we take a look at all the evidence we have at our disposal the only theory so far proposed that agrees with it all is evolution. The evidence for common descent is thousands of times stronger than the evidence that Jeffrey Dahmer was a serial killer. So why are there any doubters left? Perhaps the same reason why there are still flat earthers around.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 223
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/27/2005 12:29:21 PM
Well who looks more like they're going to be right. Scientists have been able to create amino acids, peptides, and even RNA. So while we haven't created life we seem to be making progress. The Creationists aren't even out of the starting gate. They claim that God created everything from nothing. No experiment has ever violated the Law of Conservation of Energy/Matter.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 224
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/29/2005 2:21:52 PM

So really what it comes down to is people from both sides taking a leap of faith.


BAM! Someone dropped the F-bomb! Faith, in this case. And atheists claim to not have it. Everyone has to have faith in something, because it all comes down to things that can't be proven. Bravo, evanism!

I'm not anti-evolution, but I am pro-intelligent design. The beginning of life violates the law of entropy-- that things go from order to disorder. Where did the order come from in the first place?

The God I serve doesn't live by physical laws; He makes them.

At least creationists can admit that there are things we will never fully understand.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 225
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/29/2005 8:48:21 PM


I'm not anti-evolution, but I am pro-intelligent design.


Who designed the Designer?
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 227
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/29/2005 9:07:17 PM
Count, I saw that one comin'! I didn't go into it because I fear if I make the posts too long people won't read them. So here goes:

5 year olds ask, "Where'd God come fwom?"

Atheists ask, "So, where does your god come from?"

A good question, but one with no answer. Religious people just assure themselves that if God didn't always exist, He wouldn't be God. As Christ said, "I am the Alpha and the Omega." The beginning and the end. Plus, it all falls under my sentence saying that we can admit that we will never fully understand everything with our relatively puny brains. If we could, then WE would be gods.

BTW I've been enjoying your posts, CountIbli. Very well read and intriguing. I may have to message you personally sometime to get your story of your journey from Christian to atheist.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 228
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/29/2005 11:17:12 PM
^^^^Feel free.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 229
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/29/2005 11:23:21 PM
Jimmy, you've stumbled upon the problem, I hope. The ID argument is that design is evidence of a designer. Now look at God. Does God act randomly? No. Is God simple or something so complex we can never understand? If God is non-random and complicated surely He had to have been designed. He's too perfect not to have been designed. If you can accept the existence of a non-designed being that is infinitely complex then you have just defeated the ID argument, because you're admitting that design is not evidence of a designer.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 230
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/29/2005 11:28:40 PM
Flyguy, the notion of a non-eternal god is interesting. In Greek mythology the gods themselves were descended from the Titans. In Norse mythology the gods could die (and most of them would at the Gotterdammerung). In the story of Prometheus, he knew the name of the being who would overthrow Zeus. Zeus used that information to destroy that being before he was a threat. This all suggests that the gods have their rise and fall. Could there be an infinite regression of gods designing gods?
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 232
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/30/2005 12:01:31 AM

Is God simple or something so complex we can never understand? If God is non-random and complicated surely He had to have been designed.


OK, I didn't see that one coming. You're getting into a Buddhist system of neverending (with no clear origin) causes and effects here. But, I believe the "so complex we can never understand" part cancels out the designer behind the designer question.

The last time I had these questions was when I was about 5 or so years old asking my mother (who's very sharp and well read). God is self-existent, self-sufficient, and eternal. Just because I can't wrap my brain around it doesn't mean it ain't so. I can't fathom infinity either, and I guess that's why we make a nice little loopy symbol to make it easier to visualize.

I'd rather put my faith in God's existence than coincidence, randomness, and billions and billions of years (said with Carl Sagan inflection).

Is this really one of the issues that caused you to stop believing, CountIbli?
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 234
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/31/2005 12:46:57 AM
Jimmy, you can laugh but that just means you're not seeing the ID theory through to its logical conclusion. The ID theory defeats itself. It requires us to posit an undesigned designer. But if we posit an undesigned desinger then we've admitted that the whole reason for positing a designer is unnecessary.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 235
Creation vs Evolution
Posted: 8/31/2005 1:04:45 AM
Flyguy, after I stopped believing my mind was open to logic. While I was a believer I had to tell myself that God transcended logic. But that's just a fancy way of saying the god concept is illogical.

I abandoned Christianity largely because I realized that the Bible is hopelessly contradictory. I don't expect anyone to believe that it is. I know what it's like not wanting to admit this. I would come up with all sorts of ways of twisting what the Bible says in order to resolve contradictions. One day the lightbulb went on over my head and I saw that I would have to choose between being a Christian and being intellectually honest with myself.

I still held on the theism for a while, but eventually I realized I didn't need it. I saw, and still see, absolutely no reason to posit a Grand Architect of the Universe. With each new discovery in science we push god further and further back into our gaps in knowledge. We no longer blame hurricanes, earthquakes, disease, etc. on God's Wrath. At least I don't. All the so called proofs of god's existence inevitibly contradict themselves.

If believing that you can go to Hell after you die gives you some comfort, then go ahead and believe it. If you want to believe in talking snakes, demonic possession, and a god who sent his innocent son to be brutally murdered even though it was totally unneccessary, then go ahead and believe. I only ask that you not get the government to actively support those beliefs.
 Dei Gratia
Joined: 7/28/2005
Msg: 237
This is now dead theory folks BIG difference from Truth......
Posted: 8/31/2005 10:51:41 AM
Howard Hughes Medical Institute
A new view of human-chimpanzee genome differences
Comparisons of the human genome and the newly completed draft of the chimpanzee genome have unearthed major differences between the patterns of large duplicated segments of DNA in the two species. These segmental duplications -- which straddle large stretches of DNA -- appear to have had a significant impact in altering the genomic landscape of apes and humans. The popular understanding of the genetic differences between chimpanzees and humans should be recast in light of the findings of major differences in segmental duplications.

Next....


Howard Hughes Medical Institute
Human Y chromosome preserves itself better than the chimp Y
By using human and chimpanzee Y chromosomes as a genetic fossil record to examine our past, Howard Hughes Medical Institute (HHMI) scientists have seen a surprising difference in the way the male-making chromosomes from the two species cope with the inexorable pressures of evolution.

One more.....

Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory
Flipped, expelled, copied, and shrunk
The September 2005 issue of Genome Research presents a series of studies that provide insight into the evolution and variation of primate genomes. The issue will appear online and in print on September 1, concomitant with the publication of the chimpanzee genome sequence in the journal Nature.

Good bye theory.......
 silivros
Joined: 3/19/2005
Msg: 243
This is now dead theory folks BIG difference from Truth......
Posted: 9/9/2005 7:38:33 PM
I've always viewed evolution as change necessitated through adaptation for survival.

I've never seen any proof from either side for the initial phase of their arguments.

Merely specutlation on both sides.
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