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 ffryan
Joined: 10/10/2005
Msg: 27
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Police target protesters at RNC conventionPage 3 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)

What riot ? Peaceable assembly for the redress of grievances is a Constitutionally guaranteed right. How are activists in a house, or on the street, responsible for the actions of vandals and looters? Shouldn't the police have warrants, or , at least, evidence, in order to arrest someone ?

You read the article in the opening post, right? They were arrested for conspiring to riot. Last time I checked it was illegal to plan a crime. Planning a protest is perfectly legal. Planning a riot is not. Obviously the police had warrants, otherwise every one of the raids would have been illegal and no charges would have been filed.
 OneBlend
Joined: 3/31/2007
Msg: 28
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Police target protesters at RNC convention
Posted: 9/2/2008 4:50:45 PM

Amazing how people glance over this and start screaming government conspiracies and abuse of power. Last I checked the first amendment doesn't cover riots.


Riot!!??? There was no riot and the way the police were arresting journalists and lawyers before any of the protests began should give you some indication that there's no excuse for walking around, babbling nonsense.

With the militarization of the police force, there should be an all out riot. That day is coming because we are witnessing the loss of our liberties, the destruction of our Constitution, our Bill of Rights and THIS COUNTRY. Those who would rather keep silent need to do just that.

Iraq Veterans Against War were even being hassled by the thug militia. People were getting pepper sprayed (doused generously) for doing nothing wrong. Intimidated by thug police who wielded their wooden batons with a smile. And you want to keep peace? Why not be a backbone for your brothers and sisters out there who're are protesting for your rights?

And as for McCain, he refused to meet with the Iraq Veterans Against War . Why so? Because he'd have to explain to the soldiers why their lives are invaluable in comparison to the profits the Military Industrial Complex is reaping. It's all blood money and people should be outraged!

Apathy is for cowards.
 OneBlend
Joined: 3/31/2007
Msg: 30
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Police target protesters at RNC convention
Posted: 9/2/2008 8:06:59 PM


When they start destroying property and clashing with police they are going to get hurt and that doesn't bother me either. Protesting does not give you carte blanche to go ANYWHERE you want and do anything you want.

Excuse me Hot Buns,
I haven't heard any of the things you're speaking of. Maybe you can list some sites for reading.
I have an issue w/lawyers and journalists getting arrested for doing nothing. For peace people congregating and being arrested and pepper sprayed. Whether you think protests are foolish or not, protest happens around the globe and it's not the cowardly who are marching. What should we just be like commi china and start shooting them? These military actions conducted by the police are a sign of what's to come - thank you, Homeland Security.


Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionists and rebels - men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion. ~ Dwight D. Eisenhower



September 2, 2008
Preemptive Strikes Against Protests at RNC
Raiding Democracy in St. Paul

By MARJORIE COHN
Marjorie Cohn is president of the National Lawyers Guild and a professor at Thomas Jefferson School of Law. She is author of Cowboy Republic. Her articles are archived at www.marjoriecohn.com.

In the months leading up to the Republican National Convention, the FBI-led Minneapolis Joint Terrorist Task Force actively recruited people to infiltrate vegan groups and other leftist organizations and report back about their activities. On May 21, the Minneapolis City Pages ran a recruiting story called "Moles Wanted." Law enforcement sought to preempt lawful protest against the policies of the Bush administration during the convention.

Since Friday, local police and sheriffs, working with the FBI, conducted preemptive searches, seizures and arrests. Glenn Greenwald described the targeting of protestors by "teams of 25-30 officers in riot gear, with semi-automatic weapons drawn, entering homes of those suspected of planning protests, handcuffing and forcing them to lay on the floor, while law enforcement officers searched the homes, seizing computers, journals, and political pamphlets." Journalists were detained at gunpoint and lawyers representing detainees were handcuffed at the scene.

"I was personally present and saw officers with riot gear and assault rifles, pump action shotguns," said Bruce Nestor, the President of the Minnesota chapter of the National Lawyers Guild, who is representing several of the protestors. "The neighbor of one of the houses had a gun pointed in her face when she walked out on her back porch to see what was going on. There were children in all of these houses, and children were held at gunpoint."

The raids targeted members of "Food Not Bombs," an anti-war, anti-authoritarian protest group that provides free vegetarian meals every week in hundreds of cities all over the world. They served meals to rescue workers at the World Trade Center after 9/11 and to nearly 20 communities in the Gulf region following Hurricane Katrina.

Also targeted were members of I-Witness Video, a media watchdog group that monitors the police to protect civil liberties. The group worked with the National Lawyers Guild to gain the dismissal of charges or acquittals of about 400 of the 1,800 who were arrested during the 2004 Republican National Convention in New York. Preemptive policing was used at that time as well. Police infiltrated protest groups in advance of the convention.

Nestor said that no violence or illegality has taken place to justify the arrests. "Seizing boxes of political literature shows the motive of these raids was political," he said.

Further evidence the political nature of the police action was the boarding up of the Convergence Center, where protestors had gathered, for unspecified code violations. St. Paul City Council member David Thune said, "Normally we only board up buildings that are vacant and ramshackle." Thune and fellow City Council member Elizabeth Glidden decried "actions that appear excessive and create an atmosphere of fear and intimidation for those who wish to exercise their first amendment rights."

"So here we have a massive assault led by Federal Government law enforcement agencies on left-wing dissidents and protestors who have committed no acts of violence or illegality whatsoever, preceded by months-long espionage efforts to track what they do," Greenwald wrote on Salon.

Preventive detention violates the Fourth Amendment, which requires that warrants be supported by probable cause. Protestors were charged with "conspiracy to commit riot," a rarely-used statute that is so vague, it is probably unconstitutional. Nestor said it "basically criminalizes political advocacy."

On Sunday, the National Lawyers Guild and Communities United Against Police Brutality filed an emergency motion requesting an injunction to prevent police from seizing video equipment and cellular phones used to document their conduct.

During Monday's demonstration, law enforcement officers used pepper spray, rubber bullets, concussion grenades and excessive force. At least 284 people were arrested, including Amy Goodman, the prominent host of Democracy Now!, as well as the show's producers, Abdel Kouddous and Nicole Salazar. "St. Paul was the most militarized I have ever seen an American city to be," Greenwald wrote, "with troops of federal, state and local law enforcement agents marching around with riot gear, machine guns, and tear gas cannisters, shouting military chants and marching in military formations."

Bruce Nestor said the timing of the arrests was intended to stop protest activity, "to make people fearful of the protests, but also to discourage people from protesting," he told Amy Goodman. Nevertheless, 10,000 people, many opposed to the Iraq war, turned out to demonstrate on Monday. A legal team from the National Lawyers Guild has been working diligently to protect the constitutional rights of protestors.
 OneBlend
Joined: 3/31/2007
Msg: 31
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History
Police target protesters at RNC convention
Posted: 9/2/2008 8:22:13 PM
Quotes worth pondering.


I like to believe that people in the long run are going to do more to promote peace than our governments. Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way and let them have it. ~ Dwight D. Eisenhower

How far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without? ~ Dwight D. Eisenhower

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. ~ Dwight D. Eisenhower

I deplore the need or the use of troops anywhere to get American citizens to obey the orders of constituted courts. ~ Dwight D. Eisenhower

I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidity.
~ Dwight D. Eisenhower


If you have to ask what people are protesting ... sigh...
 feeltobefree
Joined: 10/6/2006
Msg: 33
Police target protesters at RNC convention
Posted: 9/3/2008 12:03:26 PM
Flower Girl” Gets Pepper Sprayed in the Face

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyvsc1ktgJE

I suppose this is the democracy they are supposed to be spreading.. laughable and chilling at the same time...
 mfreemo
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 34
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Police target protesters at RNC convention
Posted: 9/3/2008 12:16:06 PM
Why are the protestors so disorderly?
Exercise your freedom of speech from where you are allowed to speak. If your message has merit, it will be heard from there.
If the only way it will be heard is for you to create enough havoc to get police attention, and it gets media attention only because of the police attention, then perhaps your message has no real merit.
The police are there BECAUSE you won't stay where you ought, not to shut you up.

Freedom comes with responsibility. Disorderly protest is abuse of your freedom of speech. You are arrested for that abuse, not for your message. The police are not abusing your freedom they are protecting the peace.
 mfreemo
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 37
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Police target protesters at RNC convention
Posted: 9/3/2008 1:15:18 PM
No, the entire USA is not a free speech zone.
You do not have the right to come into my house and stand on your soapbox.
You do not have the right to come into my business and stand on your soapbox.
You should not have the right to come to my child's birthday party in the public park and stand on your soapbox. You can set up your soapbox in the park, but to invade my party is not your right.

The RNC is their party and they have a right to have it. You have a right to stand in free speech zones and go for it. That they have to set up free speech zones shows that the demonstrators have no idea of where they can stand without help. That you think you have the right to disrupt someone's party shows you take no resposibility for your freedom of speech.
 oddandy
Joined: 3/5/2008
Msg: 38
Police target citizens in Colorado
Posted: 9/3/2008 1:35:41 PM
These kinds of policed state antics are what breeds mayhem. At some point it is justifiable for human beings to retaliate.


QFT.


he protesters were self described ANARCHISTS...causing trouble. If they had come in a peaceful protest they would have been left alone...those idiots on the left...need to learn to tell the damn truth and get a life!


They can start by NOT calling themselves anarchists. I've never understood why there's a slice of hardcore leftists (who advocate the use of force to get others to participate in their system) that insist on misusing the term. They're probably all police informers and agent provacatuers.
 mfreemo
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 39
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Police target protesters at RNC convention
Posted: 9/3/2008 2:35:27 PM
valerieop
I didn't say being an anarchist was illegal. I have faith that they were not arrested becasue they were anarchists, but because of their actions. (I could be wrong. )

Can you tell me some of the planks of an Anarchist's platform? What are anarchists fighting for?
 zabet
Joined: 10/27/2007
Msg: 41
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Police target protesters at RNC convention
Posted: 9/3/2008 3:42:07 PM
Anarchism has a long history and there are many types of anarchism. Some anarchists are pacifists. If you're really interested in learning more about anarchism you could start by looking it up in wikipedia. We tend to think of anarchists as the hotheaded, usually young, people who disrupt events, sometimes with violence, but they're a tiny fringe minority. The anarchists I know are compassionate thinkers who believe that people are capable of working together without a heavy handed government telling them how to think, live, consume, etc.

A lot of it comes down to whether you think people can't be decent unless they have a lot of rules to guide them, or you believe that people will figure it out for themselves if they don't have too much imposed on them.
 mfreemo
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 42
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Police target protesters at RNC convention
Posted: 9/3/2008 4:04:01 PM
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/01/peaceful_protest_marred_by_sma.html?hpid=topnews
The police estimated that between 5,000 and 8,000 people joined the rally, which ended outside the Xcel Center and resulted in 56 arrests.

"The antiwar demonstration was largely peaceful, but a small group of anarchists smashed windows and set a dumpster on fire en route."

"There was a splinter group that came here to cause trouble," said Tom Walsh, a public information officer for the St. Paul police. "

"Police carried out a series of raids over the weekend, targeting locations where they believed groups were planning attacks on the convention. The RNC Welcoming Committee, a group describing itself as an "anarchist/anti-authoritarian organizing body" that planned to "crash the convention," was among the groups targeted."
*******************


http://www.startribune.com/politics/27695244.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aULPQL7PQLanchO7DiUs
Ramsey County authorities conducted raids across Minneapolis and St. Paul Friday and Saturday as a pre-emptive strike against disruptive protests of the Republican National Convention.

"These acts include tactics to blockade and disable delegate buses, breaching venue security and injuring police officers," Fletcher said. Deputies seized a variety of items that they believed were tools of civil disobedience: a gas mask, bolt cutters, axes, slingshots, homemade "caltrops" for disabling buses, even buckets of urine."

Comments;
"Thank goodness they did..
At first I thought this was excessive. Reading now that one person had bleach thrown in their face, a bus had brick thrown through a window, Cub Scouts frightened by folks rocking their bus, folks dropping sand bags and bricks on a bus and vandals smashing windows, I am happy the police did raid. These aren't protesters exercising free speech. They are sociopaths. Bet they torture small animals too"
**********

I do believe that most people are decent, no matter which political affiliation, but I don't think EVERYONE is decent. Without rules, and someone enforce them, then hotheads will take over and write their own rules.

Is anyone here really defending these particular anarchist/anti-authoritarians? What they did and were planning was criminal, and dangerous. People could have been hurt or killed. Had it gone unchecked the police and the peaceful demonstrators were at risk. It is the job of the police to prevent this kind of crime when they have the information to prevent it.

This was not about supressing free speech.
 zabet
Joined: 10/27/2007
Msg: 43
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Police target protesters at RNC convention
Posted: 9/3/2008 4:16:06 PM
How much do you really trust the police?

I've owned bolt-cutters and axes and used them for perfectly legitimate reasons. My kids were into slingshots for a while. The buckets of urine thing is kinda weird, but then I've lived without plumbing on occasion and had some buckets...

Back in the sixties some of the worst rabblerousers turned out to be undercover feds.
 toonsmith
Joined: 1/19/2005
Msg: 44
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Police target protesters at RNC convention
Posted: 9/3/2008 4:23:31 PM
Part of our Democracy is the right to protest. Our founding fathers protested against unfair representation. The protestors during the Vietnam era certainly did influence the general population, as well as the civil rights protest marches of MLK.

Unfortunately, this is a bit different.

There is also the element that enjoys creating chaos on the street.... for the simple thrill of it. They idealize the protests of the 60's.

But we are not living in the 60's.

The Republician Convention is pretty much a non-event. It pales in comparison with what happened in Denver. 75,000 people showed up... for an acceptance speech? CNN's viewership went through the roof.

This, intriguing though Palin's nomination is, is nothing to write home about.

The protests in the street, the violence, the damage, the fear.... sadly, are being instigated by thrill seekers.

The real protestors, the Indian Movement, the union organizers, the teachers and professors.... are all protesting up on the stage outside as they should be.

You want to complain about police brutality? Sure, there is going to be police brutality. There are thugs and thrill seekers within the police force as well. You are going to have ALL kinds of incidents happening.

But trashing store fronts and throwing things at people at a convention for the losing side... where it ain't gonna make any bit of difference?...... is just plain stupid.

Hey Anarchists.... pay attention to Gandi..... a little man wearing a diaper.... he overthrew the British Empire without having to throw anything?
 mfreemo
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 45
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Police target protesters at RNC convention
Posted: 9/3/2008 4:26:33 PM

zabet on 9/3/2008 406 PM - I've owned bolt-cutters and axes and used them for perfectly legitimate reasons. My kids were into slingshots for a while. The buckets of urine thing is kinda weird, but then I've lived without plumbing on occasion and had some buckets...


So, is this what you think? They were just peaceful citizens with not intentions of causing a vandalous and violent disruption that might have blown up into a full-scale riot with injuries, property damge and possible deaths? Really? That's what you think?
 mfreemo
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 46
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Police target protesters at RNC convention
Posted: 9/3/2008 5:03:37 PM
Stella.
So you are going to stand for them? I will have to concede to you if you are there and know these environmentalists. It's too bad they got confused with the folks that did break windows and cause comotion. I'm sure they will be able to clear this up.

I did watch the arrest of Amy Goodman. I wasn't there. Didn't see what led up to the arrest, or know what was going on behind the police line.

If nothing preceded what happened in the video I would still have to say that I did not see Amy roughed up. I did see her defy the commnds of the officer and try to go past them. I saw cause for them to arrest her. They arrested her in a pretty polite way. Did the assault happen after the video?

The police are just people, too. It is their job to maintain order. It was their job to maintain that line. Amy tried to go through it. What were they supposed to do?
 SpaceSquirrel
Joined: 4/22/2006
Msg: 47
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Police target protesters at RNC convention
Posted: 9/3/2008 6:21:56 PM
Only SOME of those raided, harassed, or arrested were "anarchists". One of the worst examples I've heard of yet is the raid of I-Witness. I-Witness is a group that uses video to protect civil liberties by recording the police at First Amendment Events.

After the 2004 RNC they caught many officers fabricating evidence and committing perjury. Over 400 individuals had their cases dismissed or were acquitted at trial based on video evidence.

Well, on Saturday, August 30th, the house they were staying at in St. Paul was surrounded by 30 cops, and all the occupants were handcuffed while a search was executed. I haven't found anything specifying what they were searching for, but it sure sounds like a low form of intimidation to me. For more info:

http://iwitnessvideo.info/index.html
http://coldsnaplegal.org/

And a 17 year old Buddhist was mistreated by police (including withholding information from and not releasing him into the custody of his parents as regulations say they should have):
http://www.minnesotaindependent.com/6952/youth-in-iconic-rnc-protest-photo-beaten-by-police-according-to-his-mother
 oc_jon1965
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 48
LOONIE protesters at RNC convention
Posted: 9/3/2008 6:27:25 PM
thats right...and the RNC has the right to
have a peacefull convention..to speak freely
without having extreem loonie leftist throwing human excrement
thrown on them as they come and go . .

how many right wingers showed up in denver(DNC) and pulled that??

answer . . " ZERO "

only the INSANE loonie leftist socailist pull that garbage
...and only Garbage . . .would defent thier actions
under the cloud of "Free speech" . .


 oc_jon1965
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 50
Buckets of urine, slingshots, anti-bus weapons seized
Posted: 9/3/2008 7:55:25 PM
Buckets of urine, slingshots, anti-bus weapons seized in raid on anti-RNC protesters

http://www.twincities.com/news/ci_10344356?source=rss

today...over 280 of these leftist loonies were
arrested . . .

yes....freedom of speech was planned to be violated,
by these INSANE protestors .. God bless the police
and FBI in thier Lawfull & galant efforts to keep order.

the RNC's right to hold thier convention
uninterupted . . remains a basic fundamental right
of the political process in America . . as was the DNC's
right to hold thier convention in denver . .



 SpaceSquirrel
Joined: 4/22/2006
Msg: 52
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Police misconduct surrounding RNC
Posted: 9/3/2008 8:28:38 PM
As of early evening on 9/3/2008 The Minnesota Independent reports that roughly 300 people have been jailed since the start of the RNC (likely quite a few before it started and many more being detained but ultimately not jailed).

Of those, only 21 have been charged with felonies by Ramsey County Attorney’s Office. Some others have been charged with misdemeanors by St. Paul City Attorney’s Office.

http://www.minnesotaindependent.com/7293/prosecutors-detail-protest-charges

Sounds to me like a very large number of people have been detained and/or arrested without sufficient evidence. To me, that is police misconduct (especially when many peaceful journalists are among those being harassed).
 OneBlend
Joined: 3/31/2007
Msg: 55
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LOONIE protesters at RNC convention
Posted: 9/4/2008 4:21:14 PM

only the INSANE loonie leftist socailist pull that garbage
...and only Garbage . . .would defent thier actions
under the cloud of "Free speech" . .


Freedom of speech is a human right, lest I remind you that you are not the only human being on this planet. Since you are seeking a definition, I am including this link for you .. read or have someone read it for you. If you still don't get it, have someone sit down and explain it to you until you comprehend.
http://www.answers.com/topic/freedom-of-speech

Have you actually read the posts from the beginning? It's all been addressed. Must we keep repeating ourselves, over and over again? We think not.


So, I have decided to be more selective with who I converse to save myself the grief. Hence, I am done with this exchange with you!

Agreed! Save your breath. Only those who value their liberties and "human rights" can keep up.
They say there are aliens walking the earth ... I'm taking this seriously now.
 OneBlend
Joined: 3/31/2007
Msg: 57
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Fascism comes in many stripes
Posted: 9/4/2008 7:20:23 PM

It sure ain't anything like fascism according to the dictionaries I've found.

Yada, yada, yada .. if you want to debate Fascism vs. Communism, go open a new thread and stop trying to derail this one!

Take this with you when you do .. your internet dictionary source "wikepedia".


There are sufficient similarities between Fascism and Nazism to make it worthwhile applying the concept of fascism to both. In Italy and Germany a movement came to power that sought to create national unity through the repression of national enemies and the incorporation of all classes and both genders into a permanently mobilized nation.[53]


Sounds like where we're headed! Call it what you will.
 OneBlend
Joined: 3/31/2007
Msg: 58
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Police misconduct surrounding RNC
Posted: 9/4/2008 8:56:44 PM

The point I am making here, for those die hard "party" supporters, is if you don't like what is happening start a petition, get the person out of office. Why "show" yourself and get arrested when that is a futile move. Use your energies in a constructive way.


How are your petitions coming along?
Please don't ASSume you know what party anyone is affiliated with. You can only speak for yourself unless you are told by that individual. Please don't ASSume you know what motivates others. You can only speak for yourself.
Those who went in protest, I'm sure, have signed petitions and likely have been more involved in the political process than one who ASSumes they know what everyone else is doing or ASSumes others efforts are futile.
I conclude one who ASSumes to know everything is only ASSuming again ..
 mfreemo
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 59
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Fascism comes in many stripes
Posted: 9/5/2008 1:28:31 AM
Pulse,
I suspect it is the nodding circle that you eluded to that gave them their 'ugly world glasses' and I wish I could help them see that perhaps the world is not as bad as they seem to hope it is.

Certainly you can see ugliness everywhere you look if you choose to see it. And perhaps they are right on this one, but the evidence they presented this time did not wash for me. Without ugly glasses it looks as though the world is working as it ought to .

Cops are people, too. I'm sure there are some messages that some policemen don't agree with. Just as I'm sure that some of the cops actually agree with some of the demonstrators . Suppressing a message is not why they are there.

The RNC has a right to have their revival meeting without disruption. Because there are those that want to disrupt it, the police must defend the RNC rights by keeping the disruptions away. They must form a line where the uninvited may not pass.

There is a history of activism that thinks that getting arrested is good for their cause and they try to be arrested by disregarding the rules and they create situations where they know they will be arrested.
Try to cross the line and you will be arrested. It's a game that activists play with the cops and as long as both sides are nice, no one gets hurt and the activist gets their activist badge for the day. With this game, no message is getting suppressed, each side is just doing their part in the 'demonstration play'.

IF Amy really wasn't trying to get arrested, she did exactly what activists do to get arrested. How were the cops to know that she was just trying to get past their line, for real. Oh wait, you can't do that. Either way, the cops did what they do, and it seemed they did it pretty politely and professionally.

And of course, it is expected for an activist to scream that their rights were violated after they get arrested trying to force through the line. The 'Demonstration play' has it's script to follow, after all.

It is when there are those, like the groups that broke windows, harrassed scared civilians, and planned and threatened other violence that the police were obliged to do what they could to find them and stop them.
I think they found the right people. I trust that they did an investigation with enough witnesses pointing the finger at them, that the police had sufficient just cause and all that. The things they found convince me that they were in the right place. If not, it was a mistake, but a mistake that needed to be made. You can't take a chance of a large scale riot and all the damage and injury and even deaths that might result.

The alternative that seems to be the only one that would please those in this thread, that think the police are fascists, is for the police to stand idly by until the riot did break out. At that point they would be too late to protect the peace.

Without benefit of ugly glasses I feel that the police did a great job. It just does not seem that they are the evil empire's tool of suppression. I have no trouble seeing it as it should be. They are the thin blue line between criminal and victim, between abusive husband and his battered wife, between the Crips and Bloods, and between 'anarchist/anti-authoritarian' thugs bent on turning a peaceful demonstration into a destructive and tragic riot and RNC partiers and the peaceful demonstrators. If you had friends or family at this demonstration, you should be grateful that the police did their job to prevent something that could have cost you your loved ones.

Because the police did their job the demonstrators got to hold their banners and shout their slogans and show their numbers, and come home safely. Message delivered. Freedom of speech protected.

This was not about suppressing speech.
 itechman63
Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 60
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History
those damned protesters of yore
Posted: 9/5/2008 11:19:17 AM
There were definitely some protesters that were "out there" and were beyond the lines of what would be called "peaceful demonstrators" along the lines of PETA's blood bucket brigades.

It seems that the tactic decided upon by the authorities was one of blanket zero tolerance to avoid the trouble that would be involved in identifying troublesome demonstrators, peaceful demonstrators, and potential security threats. That would be a lot of irons to have in the fire. Right or wrong... I don't know.

But I do think we have to get past the idea that frustrated people searching for ways to be heard are psychotic or left-wing nutjobs. Many are people not getting a fair shake and not being heard desperately grasping to be heard.

Funny that during Palin's speech... not so much for her presentation but for the reactions in the audience... my minds eye flashed to grainy black and white images of the crowds in footage from Hitler's speeches.
 OneBlend
Joined: 3/31/2007
Msg: 61
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History
Songbird McCain....lousy pilot..worst choice for leadership
Posted: 9/5/2008 5:41:39 PM

Puhleeeaze.....pick up a history book and actually read about what a police state is like. Then you can make the claims. Have you ever done that ? Ever read about the Gestapo, the NKVD, or the Stasi ? No, of course you haven't. If you had you wouldn't defend the notion that the US is just like a police state of any kind.


If you had immediate family from Europe who in fact had been tortured by the Nazi's, who in fact lived under communist rule, who in fact lived to tell their story to their children and others, maybe you'd come out a little more educated yourself. Yes, I read more than you could ever comprehend and I have also learned of the atrocities first hand .. not alone by reading a book. My eyes are wide open, and I can thank those in my family who survived Auschwitz .

I don't think I need to refresh your memory onwhat the Stazi did .. look it up and if you can't draw parallels to the uncontitutional acts of infringing on one's liberties, which are clearly happening today, then it's futile to even converse with you. Your opinion is based on the actual real life substance you lack .That's truly sad.
=============================================================
Sound familiar?
Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

What about this?
The Bill of Rights protects freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the right to keep and bear arms, the freedom of assembly, and the freedom to petition. It also prohibits unreasonable search and seizure, cruel and unusual punishment, and compelled self-incrimination. The Bill of Rights also prohibits Congress from making any law respecting establishment of religion and prohibits the federal government from depriving any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.
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