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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence      Home login  
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 Merrylass
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 26
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IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligencePage 2 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
[qutoe]A lot of questions on an IQ test are related to culture
Therein lies the problem. Those sections purport to measure 'general knowledge' but are overly biased towards culture. I think, were they removed, IQ tests would be more useful. I know I'd score higher on them if I'd continued a little farther in math. I was good at math but it bored me so I dropped it early and didn't learn some of the formulas and forgotten some of the others that IQ tests test. I can figure the answers out w/o the formulas but it takes longer. However, I, too do very well because of my language skills, pattern recognition skills, etc. I also do well in 'general knowledge' but, while I'm doing those questions, I see how easily a person from another culture would be at a disadvantage.


hay look we got a major pseudo intellectual on our hands....

Nope. A genuine intellectual, however, unfortunately, one who tends to be very abusive of those he deems fools (which is just about everybody else). And who often makes spelling and grammar mistakes
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 27
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/7/2008 7:12:18 AM

IQ tests are little more than trivia contests. These questions from a real test: "Who wrote Moby****" and "What continent is Madagascar nearest?" Knowing the answer to these questions merely means you paid attention is school. And they have little practical application in survival.


Which IQ tests are you taking...? The ones I've taken have nothing of that sort in them. The questions I've encountered most deal with solving basic relationship problems, sorting items into their proper order, identification of commonalities... that sort of thing.

Something like that, I can't picture how it can be biased. (Maybe I'm just not smart enough... )
 Irespire
Joined: 7/30/2008
Msg: 28
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/7/2008 7:20:49 AM
No, IQ tests in general are just stupid.
 Irespire
Joined: 7/30/2008
Msg: 29
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/7/2008 7:22:11 AM
a pseudo intellectual is also someone who uses IQ tests to validate their 'smartz'
 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 30
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/7/2008 11:05:52 AM
It's always popular to bash IQ tests, but they do have some very important uses. I just recently had a neurologist administer the WAIS-III for me. We used it alongside other testing to discover that I have a relative weakness in some areas which is indicative of a progressive condition. I'm going in for further testing as a direct result of the WAIS and it could wind up meaning the difference between getting the preventative care I need now and having to live in a home unable to take care of myself at 35.

That being said, IQ tests aren't really designed to measure how "smart" someone is. It would be impossible to construct a test that accurately determines the relative intelligence in all areas. For example, how could you know if I knew alot about metallurgy without asking me questions about metallurgy? You couldn't, so there'd have to be a metallurgy section of the test. Then you'd have to give me an ancient greek philosophy section and so on. Once you have a rating of how good I am at every single field known to man (after 3 straight years of test taking), you'd have to somehow compare which were more relevant and give a weighted average of all scores. However, nobody can meaningfully compare which should have more weight in a measure of overall "smarts" between metallurgy and ancient Greek philosophy.

As a result, IQ tests measure something different. IQ tests measure different dimensions of cognition. They measure how well the brain can store, recall, and transform information. Asking you the question about Madagascar isn't actually there to test your knowledge of geography. It's there to test how well you can recall information that you haven't used recently (the location of Madagascar) and your ability to synthesis information (comparing the location of Madagascar to the continents). The end result of the testing is that it gives you scores that indicate how far from the average person you are at various different types of thinking.

If you define intelligence as skill at thinking, then it actually does measure intelligence. However if you define intelligence as how much someone knows it's likely correlated, but not necessarily. If you wanted to predict success though, you'd actually get a better result by getting a rating of attractiveness from 1 to 10, measuring height, WHR, timber and pitch of your voice, and a few other factors. All of those are far better predictors of success than anything as irrelevant as knowledge or intelligence.
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 31
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/7/2008 12:58:35 PM
Actually... Being smart has nothing to do with how educated you are. It's a common misconception. Being smart deals with how quickly you can take it on the information and apply it.
Besides, you can be the "smartest" guy in the world and if you don't apply yourself, you are useless... Look at mr Landen. He works in a bar as a bouncer....
 Aphorism
Joined: 6/21/2007
Msg: 32
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/7/2008 3:04:46 PM
"It doesn't matter if the 'expectancy effect' (I'm assuming you mean that 'high IQ' causes biases in raising that change things for the 'better') has fallen out of favor with the 'research community' because the research community in the field of psychology is primarily BS. It's common sense that such a thing exists, and you don't need 'studies' to prove things that are obviously existent in a social context."

Translation: "This runs counter to my view of how the world works, so therefore I will denigrate an entire highly rigorous subfield of an academic discipline in order to bolster my opinion."
 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 33
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/7/2008 4:56:44 PM
Lots of people like ragging on psychologists and psychiatrists calling them "soft sciences" just because it doesn't involve test tubes and beakers. There are lots of people who cannot wrap their heads around the idea that it's still science even if it can't be done in a lab. On top of that, if you can use science to explain how people think and act, that means we aren't different or special.
 NoseyNeighbor
Joined: 2/19/2008
Msg: 34
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/7/2008 5:15:01 PM
research community in the field of psychology is primarily BS

I guess that is why casino makers hired B.F. Skinner to build a little toy called a slot machine. People will sit and peck at the bar for days at a time until rewarded. All based on psychological learning research. Don't count on Casino owners asking you to maximize their slot revenue.

I guess that is why the Military turns to Clinical and Behavioral Psychologists for help with conducting studies and writing psychological warfare manuals. Rest assured, the Military is not looking for you to run their multi-million dollar San Diego based PSYCH-OPS program.

I guess that's why NIMH spends billions each year on applied psychological research. And only the most qualified, published, doctoral level psych researchers get to jocky for the grants. That leaves you out.

I guess that's why road signs and traffic lights have odd shapes and colors. All brought to you by Engineering Psychologists. Don't worry, NHTA is not looking for kids to run studies on perceptual awareness.

I guess that's why Meta Analysis is used by medicine, engineering, biology, physics, architecture, law, etc. Courtesy of Industrial Psychologists like Schmidt and Hunter, Raju, Bourdeau, etc. We are not looking for you to help our research efforts.

I guess that's why epilepsy will soon be fully treatable thanks to Neurocognitive Psychologists like Cristof Koch and his research team at Cal-Tech. I don't think they are looking for you to run their research studies.

Cognitive ability assessments help people determine where their strengths lie. Be it analyzing, organizating, managing, leading, creating, problem solving, etc. of which any/all leads to occupational choices. The OP appears to have excelled in oversimplification and hallucinogenic drivel.

Once again, you keep dumbing it down...while my intrinsic real estate soars.
 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 35
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/8/2008 9:25:27 AM
Umm, AS is actually defined to be a type of Autism Spectrum Disorder. As in, it isn't AS if it doesn't fit in the Autism Spectrum. There's no real debate on this topic, and I'm not entirely sure why you believe there is. More importantly, both are diagnosed by a multidisciplinary team with a focus on interpersonal behavior.

And citing conflict in the writing of the DSM-IV as conflict in the community at large is not exactly being open. I'd accept debate in writing the ICD-9, because that isn't as highly politicized and requires a large amount of research to be present before reclassification is considered. The DSM-IV allows for far more fringe theories to be allowed for consideration (and then they are thrown out after a committee chuckles a little). For example, every DSM revision since 3 has had people fighting to add transgender, homosexual, addictions to everything from gambling to sports, serial monogamy, and many other topics as disorders. In fact, the DSM-V is currently considering obesity as a psychological disorder (albeit with a different meaning than the colloquial one). The problem is that the DSM-IV is viewed as more than just a reference for classification, but is used to determine legal and social factors as well, as a result it's far more political.

All that being said, it's completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
 sherdredd2
Joined: 11/14/2007
Msg: 36
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/8/2008 10:26:42 AM
I don't know why people have such a problem with IQ tests..
Obscure literature questions are a pretty good way to test your memory and broadness of exposure to education. I also don't know why people like to seperate education/experience from intelligence. The brain has a nice degree of plasticity to it that depends on its input. It matters not at all if you lock 10 infants in a box for 20 years, feed them through a tube,pull them out and then test to see what one is the "smartest". They will all still be severely mentally retarded.
I have a pretty average IQ, my memory is hardly optimal, I hate literature and hate spelling/grammar. I'm great at spacial reasoning though so instead of fooling myself that I was smart enough to become a doctor and get through medical school I spent the time learning about things that leveraged my strength so that in the real world I'm competing against other people on a playing field that is my strength and not something I know I'm not good at.
These are just tools but most people are just too "dumb" to use them or take them as an insult as opposed to an insight.
"Hey Johny, you scored a 100 on the iq test!What do you want to do with your life"
"I want to study quantum mechanics and medicine!"
"Great Johny, you can be anything you want to be!"

horseshit
 father3
Joined: 7/11/2006
Msg: 37
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IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/8/2008 2:16:29 PM

a pseudo intellectual is also someone who uses IQ tests to validate their 'smartz'
Yet in the OP you told us you scored really high. It would seem you are covering both opinions. Take a stand. Explain why you took an IQ Test in the first place.
 father3
Joined: 7/11/2006
Msg: 38
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IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/8/2008 2:40:14 PM

I have a pretty average IQ, my memory is hardly optimal, I hate literature and hate spelling/grammar. I'm great at spacial reasoning though so instead of fooling myself that I was smart enough to become a doctor and get through medical school I spent the time learning about things that leveraged my strength so that in the real world I'm competing against other people on a playing field that is my strength and not something I know I'm not good at.
You seem, through your writing, to be well above average intelligence. I agree with you wholeheartedly with the statement I've highlighted from you. Your reasoning is sound. A series of aptitude tests would have revealed to you your areas of strength and weakness, whereas an IQ Test would have just given you a number relative to others of your age/culture. I would guess that your EQ (Emotional Intelligence) is very high as well. You probably accel at what you do.

Scoring average overall doesn't mean someone isn't a genius in some area. I think this has been pointed out over and over in this thread. None better than by you.
 Irespire
Joined: 7/30/2008
Msg: 39
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/8/2008 4:44:12 PM

I guess that is why casino makers hired B.F. Skinner to build a little toy called a slot machine. People will sit and peck at the bar for days at a time until rewarded. All based on psychological learning research. Don't count on Casino owners asking you to maximize their slot revenue.
That's called basic observation and is completely obvious.



I guess that's why NIMH spends billions each year on applied psychological research. And only the most qualified, published, doctoral level psych researchers get to jocky for the grants. That leaves you out.
Yeah, because big government agencies support something, then it must be true! And you call yourself a legitimate intellectual? Seriously, like I said before, grow up.

Just because people in general have piss poor knowledge of how themselves and others work doesn't mean that psychology has any real 'scientific' value. You're confusing a 'scientific field' with basic constructs such as 'manipulation', 'greed', 'etc'. Basic perception is perhaps one of the only valid 'scientific' areas of it.



Cognitive ability assessments help people determine where their strengths lie
'Strengths' are largely developed, and there are better ways, such as not being a pseudo-intellectual prick and actually understanding yourself and the world around you.

'Hallucinogenic drivel'? Seems you need to look up the meaning of 'hallucinogenic'. You probably meant 'delusional'. And what part of 'primarily' do you not understand? It looks here like you're the one dumbing things down, dolt.
 Irespire
Joined: 7/30/2008
Msg: 40
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/8/2008 4:51:21 PM
I kind of agree that in areas like basic perception and cognition they can be useful. But they're taken to actually measure something like 'intelligence', and that's wrong. And most of the 'IQ researchers' like to imply that results indicate genetic predispositions or innate strengths or weaknesses, when basic strengths and weaknesses could easily be developed over time with practice and an optimal environment.

I don't define 'intelligence' as purely thinking, that's a big part of it (though that can improve or deteriorate), but also perception, awareness of oneself/the world, musicality, creativity, etc. The problem is, if one accepts the reality that they can improve massively despite what the IQ testers say about their 'innate strengths', the IQ tests would be bunk. That said, I think that even in cases such as your own, one could realize what was going on if they were aware of the scope of their abilities, etc. But obviously, that's hard, especially when things are deteriorating. So, that being said, I think IQ tests tend to test basic thought speed/processing (efficacy), which can be affected by a lot of variables, and still does have some cultural bias often. Maybe it should be called a 'cognition test'.
 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 41
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/8/2008 8:57:26 PM
For starters, you're wrong about the slot machines. Most people when they first hear that a variable intermittent reward system is optimal for habit forming, they are surprised. However, it's knowing that variable intermittent rewards are better than any other reward system at habit forming that enables gambling to work. If it were "obvious" that variable intermittent rewards were the best reinforcer, we would use it outside of Vegas (in schools for example). However, we don't. We don't because if you were going to tell parents that you will randomly determine whether to give their children a reward when they complete an assignment, that what they get will change (bonus points, sticker, cupcake, $20), and that different kids will receive different rewards, they would go nuts. However, psychology has repeatedly demonstrated that it is true.

Also I don't think a single person who works on the IQ test or uses it professionally has claimed in the last 20 years that it is a measure of overall intelligence. Simply put: that isn't what it does. MENSA uses IQ tests in conjunction with other factors. They always have. In fact, you actually don't even have to submit an IQ test today to qualify (they accept the GMAT for example). The original person who made the WAIS test never claimed it measure overall intellectual aptitude or anything like that. He designed it to measure cognitive deficiencies and areas of relative strength so coping mechanisms could be more effectively developed. The only people who claim IQ tests are used to measure overall intellectual ability (or worse yet, achievement) are people who are condemning it or people who merely wish to brag but don't know what it actually is (or at least are betting that you don't know what it actually is). Just because someone has a high IQ doesn't mean that they aren't arrogant.

Beyond that, there is a problem with it not being called a test of intelligence. You are using a colloquial definition of intelligence. In this case, intelligence is actually part of the psychological community's jargon. In cognitive psychology, intelligence specifically refers to reasoning skills, problem solving, abstract thinking, comprehension, ability to collect and assimilate new information, planning, and mastery of language . That is exactly what the IQ test measures. Calling it a cognitive test would be far less useful for the experts who use it because cognition is a very broad term for cognitive psychologists (it kinda refers to absolutely everything they do, by definition). Measures of creativity (if you could somehow do them objectively) don't belong in an IQ test anymore than algebra belongs on a french test. Overall mental ability only includes intelligence as a small portion. Mental ability includes other things like the ability to discern colors, to recall information, to know what information there is to recall, to regulate bodily functions, etc. And anyone who claims that they are smart just because they have a high IQ is being an arrogant ass. It doesn't mean they aren't a genius (genius is defined to be top 2% of IQ scores); but it might mean they aren't what we would call a genius in layman's terms.
 NoseyNeighbor
Joined: 2/19/2008
Msg: 42
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/9/2008 8:09:52 AM

..knowing that variable intermittent rewards..

"variable intermittent"... is a term more often associated with operation of windshield wiper motors.

The variable ratio reinforcement schedule is used for slot machines (Knapp, 1998; Skinner, 1953). This schedule produces the fastest, most repetitive, and sustained behavior. (Not the kind of schedule to use in a classroom unless your playing Simon says). And when slots are also programmed with many "near wins", the gambler will pull even faster and stay longer.
Near-Miss Effects on Response Latencies and Win Estimations of Slot Machine Players. Dixon, Schreiber. Psychological Record, Vol. 54, 2004.
Slot Machine Structural Characteristics: Creating Near Misses Using High Award Symbol Ratios. Harrigan, T. Journal of Mental Health and Addiction. 2007.

If it were "obvious" that variable intermittent rewards were the best reinforcer, we would use it outside of Vegas (in schools for example). However, we don't.

Reinforcement schedules are used in US public schools and classrooms everyday. Teachers use immediate positive reinforcement with students who answer classroom questions correctly or offer logical propositions. Report cards, tests, quizzes, term projects, etc. are all on fixed interval schedules. And also used as a tool for classroom behavior problems.

The Effects of Fixed-Time Reinforcement Schedules on Problem Behavior of Children with Emotional and Behavioral Disorders. Rasmussen and O'Neill. Journal of Applied Behavioral Analysis. 2006.

Also I don't think a single person who works on the IQ test or uses it professionally has claimed in the last 20 years that it is a measure of overall intelligence.

It is a fact that all forms of cognitive tests are correlated which leads to a super-construct termed "g". This intelligence super-construct is the best practice model used by 1,000's of school, industrial, experimental, and cognitive psychologists. It is a world-wide, recognized estimate of norm based mental capacity (i.e., "overall intelligence").
Anistasia, A. Psychological Testing. Macmillan Publishing Company. 1988.
Linn, R. Educational Measurement. Cole Publishing. 1998.
What is intelligence? : beyond the Flynn effect. Flynn L. Cambridge University Press, 2007.

Working memory (span and depth) are associated with IQ. People who recall past information with high accuracy and clarity score higher on IQ tests. People with "photographic memory" score higher on IQ tests. Memory function is an individual difference variable like foot size, height, etc.
You can practice till yer blue in the face, OP....it ain't gonna happen. You cannot significantly improve your IQ score, because your IQ score is moderated by memory capacity and flexibility, which is is genetic. Once a pinhead, always a pinhead.
 Merrylass
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 43
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IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/10/2008 12:24:57 AM

Look at mr Langan. He works in a bar as a bouncer.

In his free time, he developed his own Theory of Everything. He actually operates a ranch now.
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 44
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/10/2008 2:41:00 AM
He developed his own theory of everything similar to how psychics determine your future. Fill your head with abunch of general crap that sounds intelligent and you will develop your own "theory of everything." I don't think he's that intelligent. The theory of everything involves string theory and connecting the entire universe together through scientific means... Not philisophic means.
 Irespire
Joined: 7/30/2008
Msg: 45
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/10/2008 8:38:24 AM
I didn't mean 'obvious to the layman', I meant obvious to the intelligent person. It actually makes a lot of basic common sense. Why? Because it takes on the characteristics of 'true luck' and the thrill of 'life'. It makes things unpredictable, which is more interesting and addicting than predictability. Same reason why any video game which is utterly predictable is boring.

Also, there's a problem with saying 'relative strengths or weaknesses'. How do you know that these are actually strengths or weaknesses (except perhaps in extreme cases)? So many environmental factors play into whether someone does well on X test at X times.

But the problem with the statement in the 'psychological community' is that those could all differ based on circumstances, and this doesn't seem to be readily admitted by most IQ test-related researchers. I'd say calling it an 'intelligence test' is pretty vague already, more vague than 'cognition test', since 'cognition test' is more fitting and less deceptive to the public. If it were admitted that 'IQ tests are a measure of your functioning in different areas, as well as your motivation to complete the test to the best of your ability', then that would be fair.

The idiot's definition of intelligence actually seems to lean towards IQ tests, but the more broad definition would include creativity and other more broad areas, since those tie directly into abstract reasoning. Different people's 'styles' of reasoning can also be quite different. And no, those can't really be tested very well, which kind of makes the whole 'IQ' thing really narrow. Just because psychologists define some things in arbitrary terms doesn't really mean they hold any objective truth to them. It's just jargon, of course. The problem with this is that people have a tendency to confuse (including many psychologists, unfortunately) 'jargon' with colloquial definitions.

Then again, the very 'concept' of 'intelligence' is a somewhat arbitrary one and could be expanded even further, but generally applies to general mental functioning in a huge amount of areas, for whatever reason.
 Irespire
Joined: 7/30/2008
Msg: 46
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/10/2008 8:42:04 AM

You can practice till yer blue in the face, OP....it ain't gonna happen. You cannot significantly improve your IQ score, because your IQ score is moderated by memory capacity and flexibility, which is is genetic. Once a pinhead, always a pinhead.
LOL!

IQ tests are based on basic mental functioning which can change based on practice, condition at the time, etc. It's hard to believe that someone could deny that memory recall and speed of mental functioning could be improved with practice. And it seems as though you're just another 'high IQ' prick who wants to validate your pseudo-intellectual BS. Go live your midlife crisis elsewhere.

If I think you're a pinhead, will you always be a pinhead? Probably. Not because of genetics, though.

By the way, pinhead, I did score really, really high, probably higher than you. Unlike you however, I don't care.
 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 47
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/10/2008 10:03:38 AM
I get it now, you're just a troll. My bad, I thought I was talking to someone who was just misinformed, not someone who denies facts so he can attack dissenters.

And define high, if you would. For it to be meaningful you need to give which test was administered, the verbal and spatial scores, as well as overall. Missing any one of those pieces makes it pretty meaningless.
 Merrylass
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 48
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IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/11/2008 7:55:11 AM

Not philisophic means.

You mean 'philosophic'?

You can 'think' he's intelligent or not but he blew the roof off the hardest IQ test of all. Oh, and philosophy preceded the sciences and gave rise to them, BTW.
 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 49
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/11/2008 11:07:04 AM
and the assembly line preceded mass marketed televison, and gave rise to them. That doesn't mean I'd trust an assembly line worker to repair my TV.

Logical flaw aside, it actually isn't possible to "blow the roof off" an IQ test. Standard IQ tests don't accurately model anyone who has an IQ above 140 on the standard scale (except Cattell, the scale from that IQ test is mesed up). To score "high" on the test you need to be 2 standard devs above normal which is roughly 24-28 points higher than the norm of 100. So if 124 is when high starts, 136 is when Genius starts, and 140 is the max, how exactly can you be amazing on it?

And maybe the poster is intelligent, but he is lacking in understanding of what intelligence is and what IQ tests measure.
 Merrylass
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 50
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IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/11/2008 12:41:01 PM
" Board-certified neuropsychologist Dr. Robert Novelly tested Langan's IQ for 20/20, which reported that Langan broke the ceiling of the test, scoring "off the charts". Novelly was said to be astounded, saying: "Chris is the highest individual that I have ever measured in 25 years of doing this."[7]

This mere poster is only quoting a certified neuropsych. Good enough for ya?
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