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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence      Home login  
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 NoseyNeighbor
Joined: 2/19/2008
Msg: 51
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligencePage 3 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)

..knowing that variable intermittent rewards..

"variable intermittent"... is a term more often associated with operation of windshield wiper motors.

The variable ratio reinforcement schedule is used for slot machines (Knapp, 1998; Skinner, 1953). This schedule produces the fastest, most repetitive, and sustained behavior. (Not the kind of schedule to use in a classroom unless your playing Simon says). And when slots are also programmed with many "near wins", the gambler will pull even faster and stay longer.
Near-Miss Effects on Response Latencies and Win Estimations of Slot Machine Players. Dixon, Schreiber. Psychological Record, Vol. 54, 2004.
Slot Machine Structural Characteristics: Creating Near Misses Using High Award Symbol Ratios. Harrigan, T. Journal of Mental Health and Addiction. 2007.

If it were "obvious" that variable intermittent rewards were the best reinforcer, we would use it outside of Vegas (in schools for example). However, we don't.

Reinforcement schedules are used in US public schools and classrooms everyday. Teachers use immediate positive reinforcement with students who answer classroom questions correctly or offer logical propositions. Report cards, tests, quizzes, term projects, etc. are all on fixed interval schedules. And also used as a tool for classroom behavior problems.

The Effects of Fixed-Time Reinforcement Schedules on Problem Behavior of Children with Emotional and Behavioral Disorders. Rasmussen and O'Neill. Journal of Applied Behavioral Analysis. 2006.

Also I don't think a single person who works on the IQ test or uses it professionally has claimed in the last 20 years that it is a measure of overall intelligence.

It is a fact that all forms of cognitive tests are correlated which leads to a super-construct termed "g". This intelligence super-construct is the best practice model used by 1,000's of school, industrial, experimental, and cognitive psychologists. It is a world-wide, recognized estimate of norm based mental capacity (i.e., "overall intelligence").
Anistasia, A. Psychological Testing. Macmillan Publishing Company. 1988.
Linn, R. Educational Measurement. Cole Publishing. 1998.
What is intelligence? : beyond the Flynn effect. Flynn L. Cambridge University Press, 2007.

Working memory (span and depth) are associated with IQ. People who recall past information with high accuracy and clarity score higher on IQ tests. People with "photographic memory" score higher on IQ tests. Memory function is an individual difference variable like foot size, height, etc.
You can practice till yer blue in the face, OP....it ain't gonna happen. You cannot significantly improve your IQ score, because your IQ score is moderated by memory capacity and flexibility, which is is genetic. Once a pinhead, always a pinhead.
 Merrylass
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 52
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IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/10/2008 12:24:57 AM

Look at mr Langan. He works in a bar as a bouncer.

In his free time, he developed his own Theory of Everything. He actually operates a ranch now.
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 53
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/10/2008 2:41:00 AM
He developed his own theory of everything similar to how psychics determine your future. Fill your head with abunch of general crap that sounds intelligent and you will develop your own "theory of everything." I don't think he's that intelligent. The theory of everything involves string theory and connecting the entire universe together through scientific means... Not philisophic means.
 Irespire
Joined: 7/30/2008
Msg: 54
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/10/2008 8:38:24 AM
I didn't mean 'obvious to the layman', I meant obvious to the intelligent person. It actually makes a lot of basic common sense. Why? Because it takes on the characteristics of 'true luck' and the thrill of 'life'. It makes things unpredictable, which is more interesting and addicting than predictability. Same reason why any video game which is utterly predictable is boring.

Also, there's a problem with saying 'relative strengths or weaknesses'. How do you know that these are actually strengths or weaknesses (except perhaps in extreme cases)? So many environmental factors play into whether someone does well on X test at X times.

But the problem with the statement in the 'psychological community' is that those could all differ based on circumstances, and this doesn't seem to be readily admitted by most IQ test-related researchers. I'd say calling it an 'intelligence test' is pretty vague already, more vague than 'cognition test', since 'cognition test' is more fitting and less deceptive to the public. If it were admitted that 'IQ tests are a measure of your functioning in different areas, as well as your motivation to complete the test to the best of your ability', then that would be fair.

The idiot's definition of intelligence actually seems to lean towards IQ tests, but the more broad definition would include creativity and other more broad areas, since those tie directly into abstract reasoning. Different people's 'styles' of reasoning can also be quite different. And no, those can't really be tested very well, which kind of makes the whole 'IQ' thing really narrow. Just because psychologists define some things in arbitrary terms doesn't really mean they hold any objective truth to them. It's just jargon, of course. The problem with this is that people have a tendency to confuse (including many psychologists, unfortunately) 'jargon' with colloquial definitions.

Then again, the very 'concept' of 'intelligence' is a somewhat arbitrary one and could be expanded even further, but generally applies to general mental functioning in a huge amount of areas, for whatever reason.
 Irespire
Joined: 7/30/2008
Msg: 55
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/10/2008 8:42:04 AM

You can practice till yer blue in the face, OP....it ain't gonna happen. You cannot significantly improve your IQ score, because your IQ score is moderated by memory capacity and flexibility, which is is genetic. Once a pinhead, always a pinhead.
LOL!

IQ tests are based on basic mental functioning which can change based on practice, condition at the time, etc. It's hard to believe that someone could deny that memory recall and speed of mental functioning could be improved with practice. And it seems as though you're just another 'high IQ' prick who wants to validate your pseudo-intellectual BS. Go live your midlife crisis elsewhere.

If I think you're a pinhead, will you always be a pinhead? Probably. Not because of genetics, though.

By the way, pinhead, I did score really, really high, probably higher than you. Unlike you however, I don't care.
 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 56
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/10/2008 10:03:38 AM
I get it now, you're just a troll. My bad, I thought I was talking to someone who was just misinformed, not someone who denies facts so he can attack dissenters.

And define high, if you would. For it to be meaningful you need to give which test was administered, the verbal and spatial scores, as well as overall. Missing any one of those pieces makes it pretty meaningless.
 coolnomad
Joined: 5/4/2007
Msg: 57
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IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/11/2008 1:13:37 AM
OP I think you're just using this forum to beat up on people. A less confrontational way to discuss this would be to accuse IQ tests of being limited in scope and appicability. there's all kinds of bias and also all kinds of resources on the interweb to learn about the controversy involved with IQ tests and such... certainly much better than a PoF forum... seriously mang. seriously.
these forums are really just entertainment and I doubt any new ground will be broken here so be nice.
 Merrylass
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 58
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IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/11/2008 7:55:11 AM

Not philisophic means.

You mean 'philosophic'?

You can 'think' he's intelligent or not but he blew the roof off the hardest IQ test of all. Oh, and philosophy preceded the sciences and gave rise to them, BTW.
 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 59
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/11/2008 11:07:04 AM
and the assembly line preceded mass marketed televison, and gave rise to them. That doesn't mean I'd trust an assembly line worker to repair my TV.

Logical flaw aside, it actually isn't possible to "blow the roof off" an IQ test. Standard IQ tests don't accurately model anyone who has an IQ above 140 on the standard scale (except Cattell, the scale from that IQ test is mesed up). To score "high" on the test you need to be 2 standard devs above normal which is roughly 24-28 points higher than the norm of 100. So if 124 is when high starts, 136 is when Genius starts, and 140 is the max, how exactly can you be amazing on it?

And maybe the poster is intelligent, but he is lacking in understanding of what intelligence is and what IQ tests measure.
 Merrylass
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 60
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IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/11/2008 12:41:01 PM
" Board-certified neuropsychologist Dr. Robert Novelly tested Langan's IQ for 20/20, which reported that Langan broke the ceiling of the test, scoring "off the charts". Novelly was said to be astounded, saying: "Chris is the highest individual that I have ever measured in 25 years of doing this."[7]

This mere poster is only quoting a certified neuropsych. Good enough for ya?
 coolnomad
Joined: 5/4/2007
Msg: 61
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IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/11/2008 1:55:17 PM
he works a job that he admits he doesn't like and he advocates eugenics.

He's smart, you can tell just by the way he handles himself and his CTMU is a lengthy manifesto... but he's full of himself and this leads to an inevitably warped world view. One in which intelligence is the only desirable trait.

so, is it? is it really the only and most desirable trait?
 coolnomad
Joined: 5/4/2007
Msg: 62
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IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/11/2008 2:46:45 PM
o76923,

you've posted a lot of comments that appear to be pretty well researched. Where are you learning this stuff? Off the net sources like the Wiki or perhaps more reputable sources? Maybe this is stuff that comes along with your particular field of study in college?
 Merrylass
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 63
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IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/11/2008 5:52:25 PM

is it really the only and most desirable trait?

Of course not. You have to have a lot of empathy for that guy. He had a horrible life. It's no surprise that he may not be totally socially correct; it's almost amazing he didn't turn bad and end up a practiced criminal or worse.
 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 64
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/11/2008 8:52:50 PM
Oh, I picked up most of this information either in my cognitive psychology class, the pamphlets MENSA sends out, and when the team of doctors I'm working with for a neurological condition talked to me about it they went over the ins and outs of what exactly it meant. They stressed it wasn't some overall measure of how smart I am because my LISW (therapist) knew I'd get a big ego about it.

Yes, I did pull some information from wiki as well, but it's not like I'm particularly new to the subject. And as far as IQ being used by the experts to measure overall "smarts." The wikipedia article has a great quote from Binet (from the Stanford-Binet test). If you rummage around there is probably also a quote by Weschler to the same effect. It isn't the psych community, even the pop psych community, that is professing IQ as intelligence or trying to train you to improve your IQ. It's self-help gurus, motivational speakers, and other hucksters. IQ tests aren't supposed to be like the SATs. They are supposed to measure how good you are at certain types of mental activity compared to other types of mental activity. In fact, MENSA using it to compare person to person at those specific areas is contrary to the original test. So claiming that a test, designed to do something else, is a garbage tool at yet another thing, is rather silly.
 jamie***
Joined: 7/7/2008
Msg: 65
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/12/2008 5:54:29 PM
ive addressed this afore
complete garbage

tooters of to rake wheelie bin
 Eternelle
Joined: 3/11/2007
Msg: 66
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IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/13/2008 8:11:22 PM

I guess that is why casino makers hired B.F. Skinner to build a little toy called a slot machine. People will sit and peck at the bar for days at a time until rewarded. All based on psychological learning research.

That's called basic observation and is completely obvious.


The problem is that it is not completely obvious. In fact most people don't believe how probability works even when it is explained to them. Just as there is always a 50/50 chance of a coin landing heads/tails each toss and the odds don't increase for tails even if it lands on heads 10 times in a row, a slot machine set at 1,000 to 1 for the jackpot has the exact same odds every time. So, one is no more likely to win the jackpot on the 25th turn than on the first turn. Nor will the jackpot be won once in every thousand turns. It will pay out ON AVERAGE 1/1,000... Try telling that to all those people who play the same machine for hours......And luck has nothing to do with it.

The same learning schedule is operating when parents occasionally give in to the child's wining for candy at the cash register, thus ensuring unending wining every shopping trip.

The psychological community would be unlikely to state that IQ tests measure intelligence, they would state that IQ tests measure IQ. Intelligence is well recognised as a "fuzzy" concept with multiple theories.
 24213608
Joined: 8/9/2008
Msg: 67
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/15/2008 5:58:49 AM
The IQ system was developed by the americans to weed out those of an unfortuate academic disposition on Ellis Island along with the banned use of Eugenics.

IQ testing is american based and DOES NOT work anywhere else on the planet.

Practicality Vs Intellect = no contest!
 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 68
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/15/2008 3:25:43 PM
I implore people to read what the WAIS-III test is before commenting on this thread. If not that, then I beg that they read up on the Stanford-Binet test. Those are the two most popular IQ tests used today.

* They were not made for eugenics
* They were not made to predict future achievement
* They were not made to categorize people
* They were not made to compare one person to another person
* They measure intelligence the way psychologists define it, not the way it is used colloquially
* They were initially made for determining which students needed additional help for purposes of special education
* They are currently used to measure specific areas of intelligence relative to one another (things like processing speed vs. verbal comprehension)

Nobody in the psychiatric or psychological communities believes that they can be used as some sort of overall measure of how smart someone is. The only people who assert IQ tests measure how smart someone is overall are critics of the test and snake-oil salesmen (in the form of self-help gurus).
 24213608
Joined: 8/9/2008
Msg: 69
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/16/2008 2:32:20 AM
Well what can I say?

You’re young and obviously controlled by your government so I would say that your reply is not evident of fact...

Where are the references to your subjective reply?

And can you please use International Global References NOT controlled behavioural american references…

As an academic member of the International Psychologist Forum I would demand that you supply your references for open discussion.

Thank you.
 xts3
Joined: 1/1/2006
Msg: 70
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IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/16/2008 3:11:59 AM
so, is it? is it really the only and most desirable trait?


Well considering the jokers people keep electing I'd be willing to give langan a try... Also langan advocates anti-dysgenics, there is a difference. Humans have had war and poverty in their world for thousands of years, seems human beings on the whole.

a) can't control themselves
b) don't take responsibility for their world
c) Don't realize that they are responsible for the world being an outstanding place, or a shithole

The only way the world will become an outstanding place is if people choose to be outstanding... but I bet most of the people you know are far from that, and I include myself in that assessment.

People on the whole are reactive and most thought is 98% unconscious, they don't even know what they don't know, we all operate under tremendous amounts of ignorance, it took us millions of years to harness electricity for pete sakes! we're not very bright... and the world reflects that.
 TestyDude
Joined: 9/4/2008
Msg: 71
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/16/2008 6:21:31 AM
I'll take a woman with a high IQ over a low IQ any day. As long as she didn't major in women's studies or some artsy fartsy program, she's in like flint.
 Merrylass
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 72
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IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/16/2008 11:18:18 PM
^^^Oh sure. Where where you when I lived in Ottawa, huh?
 CharlesEdm
Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 73
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/17/2008 3:18:59 AM

You’re young and obviously controlled by your government so I would say that your reply is not evident of fact


Ad hominem.


As an academic member of the International Psychologist Forum I would demand that you supply your references for open discussion.


How about actually supplying any evidence for your own argument.
 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 74
IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/17/2008 9:11:50 AM
She could also at least be kind enough to claim to be a member of a group that actually exists. I mean, the name is similar to what Psi Chi calls themselves, but isn't quite it.

And in case anyone would like to know, I was citing what Weschler (the guy who made the WAIS test) and Binet (the guy who made the Stanford-Binet test) said. The explanation of how it is used was courtesy of the neurologist I went to see at PCI, Dr. Julie Shaw, ARPN. What she gave was a clarification of what the test administrator explained to me.

And in response to the ad hominem attack, you clearly haven't done much research on me. If you look at my normal forum posts, I am vehmently opposed to the US government and paranoid about its influence and control. In fact, I recently attacked the US gov for its influence over the DSM-IV. If you want to make ad hominem attacks on me, that's fine. It doesn't add to your argument or make you look the better person, but at least attack one of my numerous flaws instead of trying to go after my strengths.
 Eternelle
Joined: 3/11/2007
Msg: 75
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IQ is a garbage tool for determining intelligence
Posted: 9/17/2008 9:05:32 PM
This is not quite the whole story.....


The IQ system was developed by the americans to weed out those of an unfortuate academic disposition on Ellis Island along with the banned use of Eugenics.



Goddard developed the Ellis Island testing based his test on the Simon-Binet test, which is French. The Binet-Simon evolved into the Stanford-Binet, which along with the Wechsler tests are the gold standard of IQ tests.
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