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 zabet
Joined: 10/27/2007
Msg: 22
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History
Race Relations in America...Page 3 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
This evening I went out to dinner with an elderly friend. We are both white. As we got out of the car two white men getting out of an adjacent car started hassling us for having an Obama sticker. We ignored them. As we walked away the last thing we heard one of them say was you don't look like n$89576s.

In the restaurant we met up with some friends, one of whom recounted that a plumber he had hired came to his house a few days ago and started giving him shit for having an Obama sign outside. Our friend promptly escorted him out of the house.

Yes I would like to believe we're past this all, but we're not. And yes, things are better now than in the past but it's still not enough.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 24
Race Relations in America...
Posted: 9/11/2008 7:29:25 PM

Americans colorblind?
Crack is bad for you, sugar. Lay it down.

90% of African Americans will vote for Obama. If that doesn't prove racism is alive and well in our nation, than I don't know what will


That comment is clear proof of what is wrong in the discussion about race. The dishonesty of those pointing fingers to African Americans, falsely accusing them of reverse racism (or racialism, as the Aryan Nation mouthpieces prefer to call it) when they know, or should know by having had this discussion already in these forums, that the high percentage of African Americans supporting Obama correlates highly with the high percentage of African Americans supporting the democrats in the elections.
 geeleebee
Joined: 5/26/2008
Msg: 28
Race Relations in America...
Posted: 9/11/2008 8:24:47 PM
We have a natural fear of anything/anyone different from us. When there is no discussion, no questions are asked. Without an opportunity for questions, there is no avenue for resolution.

I believe that fear is often the root of anger, and that fear-based anger drives a lot of what is behind racism. I'm not convinced that racism is something that we will ever put to rest. I do know that by ignoring its presence and denying that it exists we allow the misunderstanding and ignorance to continue uabated.
 geeleebee
Joined: 5/26/2008
Msg: 30
Race Relations in America...
Posted: 9/11/2008 8:38:28 PM
See, this is where we really don't understand each other...
I get off work and I'm walking down the street to catch my train in Berkeley. I see three black boys about 12, 13 years old come up and shout in the face of an old white woman who can barely stand up, balancing herself with a metal cage...
I've gotten police reports for the last twenty years, at least two or three times a week from the campus police department telling a listserve about some groups of black males robbing and/or beating up some white, asian or hispanic student for their wallet, cell phone, whatever...


The sad thing is--this happens all the time, and it is not a race issue--it's a didn't-anybody-raise-you-better-than-that?!? issue.
You have wanna-be-bad kids of all races who prey on others--not an issue of race.

As for the friend who was robbed by a black kid a year ago--I can tell you stories about a white kid I know who stole from his own father and pawned the things he took. This same white kid forged checks, broke into a house, got two DUIs.
Not a race problem.
Rotten kid problem.
 geeleebee
Joined: 5/26/2008
Msg: 32
Race Relations in America...
Posted: 9/11/2008 8:47:32 PM
Here's an issue I have: When people tell anecdotes, they often include things like, "...and it was a Mexican guy..." or "...and this old Black lady..." or "...some funky white chick..." when the color of the person has nothing pertinent to do with the story.
Why do we do that? Why not just tell the story with the important bits and pieces and leave out the person's color? Is it because we are still fixated on race, and we can't yet see just another human being?
Race is important.
Owning your actions is vital.
 kabiosile
Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 33
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History
Race Relations in America...
Posted: 9/11/2008 8:51:40 PM
Allow me if I might to bring another POV. One of biology.





A Four-Letter Word Called "Race"
by Dr. C. Loring Brace
October/November 2000

Prologue



C. Loring Brace

The very genesis of the field of biological anthropology was rooted in the assumption that there are valid biological entities that can be called “races,” and that these then are legitimate targets of anthropological study. Biological anthropologists have often been somewhat slower than others to realize that those “entities” do not have coherent biological reality. This has been particularly true in America where the concept of “race” was more an ancillary result of the circumstances of the human settlement of the hemisphere and how this affected the way people think about things than a consequence of the study of the real nature and dimensions of human biological variation.



The first biological anthropologist in America to bring this to the attention of the reading public was a transplanted Englishman, Ashley Montagu, who settled in the United States in 1930, the very year that I was born, and has remained here ever since (Brace, 1997). Montagu’s most influential work, Man’s Most Dangerous Myth: The Fallacy of Race (Montagu, 1942), has had a turbulent history. In the past, much of biological anthropology tended to treat it as though it were a manifestation of what we now refer to as P.C. -- political correctness -- in this case a kind of ‘feel-good’ manifestation of liberal wishful thinking (for example, Shipman, 1994; but see the critique of that by Brace, 1995).

The approach may indeed be compatible with liberal social thought, but it is actually based on a solid grasp of the biological nature of human variation. As the synthetic theory of evolution began to have its impact on some parts of biological anthropology in the decade after the end of World War II, there were some who realized that we could only make real biological sense out of the nature of human variation after the concept of “race” was junked and we started over from scratch. I was one of the people who came to that realization when I started teaching at the Santa Barbara campus of the University of California. I had been able to get Ashley Montagu to speak to our undergraduate anthropology club there, and I was successful in getting him brought to the campus in 1963 as Regent’s Lecturer for our winter term. In turn he invited me to contribute a chapter for the volume, The Concept of Race, that he was editing to appear in 1964 (Brace, 1964). In that chapter, I tried to show how to handle the study of the nature of human biological variation after the “race” concept had been dispensed with.



That was a third of a century ago, however, and there has been more than a bit of back-sliding in the world of biological anthropology. With that in mind, Larry Reynolds and Leonard Lieberman, of Central Michigan University, prepared a volume of essays in honor of Ashley Montagu’s ninetieth year, and, to my great pleasure, they invited me to be one of the contributors. This gave me the opportunity to completely revamp and update the approach I had taken in 1964 with the addition of the quantities of information and insight that have accumulated since that time. Actually since so many biological anthropologists still have not gotten much beyond the point of trying to justify the application of “racial” names to human individuals and groups, the information relating to the distribution of the separate aspects of human adaptation has not accumulated as rapidly as it could have. Hope springs eternal, and, this time around, just maybe the idea will take root and a new generation will actually go and get the information we need to document the picture of which I present here in outline form (Brace, 1996).



When I presented a version of this to the Canadian Association of Physical Anthropologists in Windsor, Ontario, on October 28, 1994, I was able to get the assistance of Humbert O. Echo, another member of that extraordinary faculty in the Department of Homopathic Anthropopoetics at the University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople. Echo had previously been of assistance by rendering some of the gambits I have essayed in versified form, and he had allowed me to use that particular piece as an addendum to a comment, “What shall we call ‘Them’?” that I published in 1996 (Echo, 1996). This is attached here:

The Name of a Race

When we ponder on the contours in the features of a face

That resembles all the others which are from a given place;

What potential harm would follow if we use a single name,

To denote a group of people when we think they look the same?

But there are no implications that a common shape will bear,

Beyond the clear reminder of the kinship that they share;

For selection’s not delimited by groups of kin alone,

Or confined within the boundaries of a continental zone.

Pigment in the skin will give protection from the sun,

But it doesn’t give a clue to how another trait will run;

But the desert and the artic take the moisture from the air,

And people from both places have a nose of length to spare.

Features cannot tell us who is mad and who is sane,

Or nuance of the forehead say a thing about the brain.

Each trait that is adaptive will pursue a separate course,

Determined by the nature of its own selective force

Which crosses all the others in a fashion that defines

A pattern without meaning made of independent clines.

Since each selected feature has a different place of birth,

The mix within a region can have no collective worth.

When thoughtlessly we verbalize without the proper care,

Our words can make an entity that isn’t really there;

How much pigment or how little will suffice to give the right

To warrant the conferral of the label “Black” or “White”?

And beware the added meaning in the tag we lightly give;

For it oftentimes determines who may have the right to live.

Acceptance of the concept, and all that it can mean,

Gives credence to an image that could best be called obscene;

To use the very word is to be captured by its spell:

That which we call a “race,” by any other name would smell…



I am not sure many people know this but, I know many have felt it. The problem begins with the fact that our understanding of what we call "race" is actually a complete misunderstanding of biology. It is based on a pseudo-science long debunked. The original idea of race was that people of what are considered in common language today as "race" were actually sub-species or completely separate species. The original belief was that if these people mated that they would not be able to have offspring or that they would be like a mule and be sterile.

There was also the belief and pseudo-science which was used to attempt to back up the supremacy of a race over others. This also was debunked. Today what is considered black and white are an amalgamation of a bunch of different ethnic groups which often have more in common with others genetically speaking that belong to the opposite group than the ones within their so called "race."

What am I saying dear brothers and sisters?

I think you guessed it. Scientifically there is no basis for what we are calling race. Socially however the effects of our previous and for many continued misunderstanding of biology is still quite in effect.

The human genome project proved beyond any doubt that every human on this planet regardless of what "race" they consider themselves share a common ancestry. Every single human being on this planet goes back to Africa. We are all one family who have been separated and evolved over time to adapt to the environment we inhabited.

This was proven by doing DNA tests on every continent in every group of people that we call race. You see the Y chromosome that males carry never changes. It stays constant. So it is completely traceable. Well they found the exact same markers in every "race" all over the planet which traces back to a small isolated tribe in Africa which inhabit a place believed to be where life sprung out of.

The fact that every race holds the same marker means that we all eventually go back to the same set of ancestors.

Further there has been more developments and findings since then and around the same time in the field of biological anthropology. Let me share a bit of this with you. I think you will find it enlightening.






by C. Loring Brace

I am going to start this essay with what may seem to many as an outrageous assertion: There is no such thing as a biological entity that warrants the term "race."

The immediate reaction of most literate people is that this is obviously nonsense. The physician will retort, "What do you mean 'there is no such thing as race'? I see it in my practice everyday!" Jane Doe and John Roe will be equally incredulous. Note carefully, however, that my opening declaration did not claim that "there is no such thing as race." What I said is that there is no "biological entity that warrants the term 'race'." "You're splitting hairs," the reader may retort. "Stop playing verbal games and tell us what you really mean!"

And so I shall, but there is another charge that has been thrown my way, which I need to dispel before explaining the basis for my statement. Given the tenor of our times at the dawn of the new millennium, some have suggested that my position is based mainly on the perception of the social inequities that have accompanied the classification of people into "races." My stance, then, has been interpreted as a manifestation of what is being called "political correctness." My answer is that it is really the defenders of the concept of "race" who are unwittingly shaped by the political reality of American history. [Read a proponent's perspective, that of anthropologist George Gill.]

Schoolkids Brace challenges the notion that his position on race is a manifestation of "political correctness."
But all of this needs explaining. First, it is perfectly true that the long-term residents of the various parts of the world have patterns of features that we can easily identify as characteristic of the areas from which they come. It should be added that they have to have resided in those places for a couple of hundred thousand years before their regional patterns became established. Well, you may ask, why can't we call those regional patterns "races"? In fact, we can and do, but it does not make them coherent biological entities. "Races" defined in such a way are products of our perceptions. "Seeing is believing" will be the retort, and, after all, aren't we seeing reality in those regional differences?


Copernicus Until Copernicus challenged the notion, common sense said the sun revolved around the Earth. Should we be challenging our common-sense notion of "race"?
I should point out that this is the same argument that was made against Copernicus and Galileo almost half a millennium ago. To this day, few have actually made the observations and done the calculations that led those Renaissance scholars to challenge the universal perception that the sun sets in the evening to rise again at the dawn. It was just a matter of common sense to believe that the sun revolves around the Earth, just as it was common sense to "know" that the Earth was flat. Our beliefs concerning "race" are based on the same sort of common sense, and they are just as basically wrong.

The nature of human variation I would suggest that there are very few who, of their own experience, have actually perceived at first hand the nature of human variation. What we know of the characteristics of the various regions of the world we have largely gained vicariously and in misleadingly spotty fashion. Pictures and the television camera tell us that the people of Oslo in Norway, Cairo in Egypt, and Nairobi in Kenya look very different. And when we actually meet natives of those separate places, which can indeed happen, we can see representations of those differences at first hand. But if one were to walk up beside the Nile from Cairo, across the Tropic of Cancer to Khartoum in the Sudan and on to Nairobi, there would be no visible boundary between one people and another. The same thing would be true if one were to walk north from Cairo, through the Caucasus, and on up into Russia, eventually swinging west across the northern end of the Baltic Sea to Scandinavia. The people at any adjacent stops along the way look like one another more than they look like anyone else since, after all, they are related to one another. As a rule, the boy marries the girl next door throughout the whole world, but next door goes on without stop from one region to another.

Chinese children While in skin color Europeans and Chinese are closer to each other than either is to Africans, the distribution of blood groups indicates that Europeans and Africans are closer to each other than either is to Chinese.
We realize that in the extremes of our transit—Moscow to Nairobi, perhaps—there is a major but gradual change in skin color from what we euphemistically call white to black, and that this is related to the latitudinal difference in the intensity of the ultraviolet component of sunlight. What we do not see, however, is the myriad other traits that are distributed in a fashion quite unrelated to the intensity of ultraviolet radiation. Where skin color is concerned, all the northern populations of the Old World are lighter than the long-term inhabitants near the equator. Although Europeans and Chinese are obviously different, in skin color they are closer to each other than either is to equatorial Africans. But if we test the distribution of the widely known ABO blood-group system, then Europeans and Africans are closer to each other than either is to Chinese.

Then if we take that scourge sickle-cell anemia, so often thought of as an African disease, we discover that, while it does reach high frequencies in some parts of sub-Saharan Africa, it did not originate there. Its distribution includes southern Italy, the eastern Mediterranean, parts of the Middle East, and over into India. In fact, it represents a kind of adaptation that aids survival in the face of a particular kind of malaria, and wherever that malaria is a prominent threat, sickle-cell anemia tends to occur in higher frequencies. It would appear that the gene that controls that trait was introduced to sub-Saharan Africa by traders from those parts of the Middle East where it had arisen in conjunction with the conditions created by the early development of agriculture.

Every time we plot the distribution of a trait possessing a survival value that is greater under some circumstances than under others, it will have a different pattern of geographical variation, and no two such patterns will coincide. Nose form, tooth size, relative arm and leg length, and a whole series of other traits are distributed each in accordance with its particular controlling selective force. The gradient of the distribution of each is called a "cline" and those clines are completely independent of one another. This is what lies behind the aphorism, "There are no races, there are only clines." Yes, we can recognize people from a given area. What we are seeing, however, is a pattern of features derived from common ancestry in the area in question, and these are largely without different survival value. To the extent that the people in a given region look more like one another than they look like people from other regions, this can be regarded as "family resemblance writ large." And as we have seen, each region grades without break into the one next door.


Boy scouts America has a leading role in generating and perpetuating the concept of "race," Brace says.
There is nothing wrong with using geographic labels to designate people. Major continental terms are just fine, and sub-regional refinements such as Western European, Eastern African, Southeast Asian, and so forth carry no unintentional baggage. In contrast, terms such as "Negroid," "Caucasoid," and "Mongoloid" create more problems than they solve. Those very terms reflect a mix of narrow regional, specific ethnic, and descriptive physical components with an assumption that such separate dimensions have some kind of common tie. Biologically, such terms are worse than useless. Their continued use, then, is in social situations where people think they have some meaning.

America and the race concept The role played by America is particularly important in generating and perpetuating the concept of "race." The human inhabitants of the Western Hemisphere largely derive from three very separate regions of the world—Northeast Asia, Northwest Europe, and Western Africa—and none of them has been in the New World long enough to have been shaped by their experiences in the manner of those long-term residents in the various separate regions of the Old World.

It was the American experience of those three separate population components facing one another on a daily basis under conditions of manifest and enforced inequality that created the concept in the first place and endowed it with the assumption that those perceived "races" had very different sets of capabilities. Those thoughts are very influential and have become enshrined in laws and regulations. This is why I can conclude that, while the word "race" has no coherent biological meaning, its continued grip on the public mind is in fact a manifestation of the power of the historical continuity of the American social structure, which is assumed by all to be essentially "correct."

Finally, because of America's enormous influence on the international scene, ideas generated by the idiosyncrasies of American history have gained currency in ways that transcend American intent or control. One of those ideas is the concept of "race," which we have exported to the rest of the world without any realization that this is what we were doing. The adoption of the biologically indefensible American concept of "race" by an admiring world has to be the ultimate manifestation of political correctness.



Now I know that is a whole lot of information and much to think about. This is also in no way saying that "race" does not effect people in a very serious way at this time in social matters and that if it is real or not scientifically will matter at all to a racist who is already certain that just because, a person has certain traits that were actually adaptations to a certain environment, their ancestors lived in for thousands of years, nor that this will stop what makes them so completely different in their eyes, or that they should be treated so differently.

The more man learns about the science of the matter and that the "White man" who was to move to Africa or another area of the world near the equator that in approximately 10,000 to 100,000 years even if they never "mixed" with a local their children would also evolve to be what people are calling "black." It is an adaptation to protect the skin from the harmful rays of the sun. Likewise a "black" man who was to move to an area with little sunlight would slowly over many generations loose the trait for the dark skin.

The point here is not that race does not exist in our minds. The problem is we are making a big deal about something we are misunderstanding. It is shameful that throughout history all the of sick things people have done to "other races" have actually been done to our own distant human relatives.

Thus why when asked what race I belong to. (Even though I have many in my family) I check other and write in human.







 faith2565
Joined: 3/25/2006
Msg: 34
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History
Race Relations in America...
Posted: 9/11/2008 8:53:46 PM
Racism exist it is just subtle. Many of the voters in Ohio stated they could not vote for Obama because he is black CNN Anderson 360).

Most minorities today care, but do not care. If someone does not want to interact with a person of color or homosexual then it is their lose. We have learned to just continue with our lives, but I have to admit the kids are more open.

Yesterday at work a little boy stated the 'brown' principal is my cousin.

We all smiled because he really did not see race.


Obama/Biden 08
 geeleebee
Joined: 5/26/2008
Msg: 36
Race Relations in America...
Posted: 9/11/2008 8:56:44 PM
Now, listen, Kabiosile:
I always read what you have to say because I find you intelligent and we usually end up on the same side of discussions on this board. But--this whole cut and paste a HUGE article or two, and then expect me to read all the way through it, is just not right.
Can you paraphrase?
I know you can.
For those of us who are just too tired to read the whole frickin' thing.
Pretty sure I'll agree with what's written up^^^there...just too tired tonight to slog through it.
Peace.
 kabiosile
Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 37
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History
Race Relations in America...
Posted: 9/11/2008 9:02:21 PM

Now, listen, Kabiosile:
I always read what you have to say because I find you intelligent and we usually end up on the same side of discussions on this board. But--this whole cut and paste a HUGE article or two, and then expect me to read all the way through it, is just not right.
Can you paraphrase?
I know you can.
For those of us who are just too tired to read the whole frickin' thing.
Pretty sure I'll agree with what's written up^^^there...just too tired tonight to slog through it.
Peace.


Love normally I do not do such things but, I think that bit of information will be quite enlightening for a great many people who have been banging their heads against the wall on this issue and wondering what the hell is wrong with people.

I paraphrased a bit, in between pastes love for the lazy and tired among us.

 geeleebee
Joined: 5/26/2008
Msg: 39
Race Relations in America...
Posted: 9/11/2008 9:16:30 PM
And I know a Mexican kid whose skull was fractured with a baseball bat by a white kid. Mexican kid was walking down the sidewalk--white kid drove past, stopped his truck, jumped out and hit Alex.
Alex will never be the same.

Know why he was attacked?
Earlier, after school in the parking lot, Alex had broken up a fight between the kid who hit him and another guy.

They all have it tough.
We need to acknowledge the differences and focus on the similarities.
 kabiosile
Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 41
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History
Race Relations in America...
Posted: 9/11/2008 9:38:00 PM


And I know a Mexican kid whose skull was fractured with a baseball bat by a white kid. Mexican kid was walking down the sidewalk--white kid drove past, stopped his truck, jumped out and hit Alex.
Alex will never be the same.

Know why he was attacked?
Earlier, after school in the parking lot, Alex had broken up a fight between the kid who hit him and another guy.

They all have it tough.
We need to acknowledge the differences and focus on the similarities.


Violence is the similarity and "race" is an excuse often used to give into the the sickness of violence.

Look it took a car crash in which I died was nearly paralyzed and brought back to life and a long slow recovery process for me to wake up.

I remember the first day I was in bed out of the ICU I turned on the news and saw something about people bickering over some very trivial thing that turned into a war and many people who lost their lives and many more who ended up in a bed like I was.

I then realized how infantile the human race still is. I realized a lot is messed up with us as a country and as a race of people (humans)

We bicker about what we look like and use this as an excuse for our mistreatment of others. Humans have used "race" as an excuse for slavery, war, and other injustices of every stripe. Humans even use this as a reason to turn a blind eye on people who are suffering, starving, dying from diseases etc.

In the words of a great song writer Brett Dennen




"There is enough food for us all to flourish so tell me why are so many malnourished?"
"There is enough wealth for everyone yet, some have the most and most have some."
"We can't keep paving over this world that we wont all fit in."
"You say this weakness in an empty pocket no, and I'll tell you there is weakness in an empty heart."
" You say there's strength in the power to control and I'll tell you no, there's strength in only love and compassion!


These issues are all really one. We are at a potentially terminal part of our existence. Either we come together as one human race and work together on the problems that we ALL face or it is quite likely that we will share the fate of the dinosaur. The fact is we all share this finite space. It is the home to us all. There is no escape if we F it up we F ourselves up. No matter how much money you hoard like a dragon while the villagers starve, it will not save you. Money does not feed us nature does. If we continue our war and destruction, our racism and all this foolishness, we will reap what we sow.

I know people will say he is being negative etc. Nope I have great hope that humanity will pull our collective head out of our collective ass and take a breath of fresh air and realize what we need is given to us every day with only a bit of care and respect for nature. We need to remember that this is the source of everything we need. Economy is a distraction it makes us forget what we are and more importantly from where we come.

We are the earth not separate from it. Just like the birds of the forest are a part of the forest. We look at these and call them separate, they are intertwined, interconnected, one.

We as are not separate from the planet nor are we separate from each other. What we do to others we are doing to ourselves and what we do to the planet we are doing to ourselves. When we pollute the water we pollute our body and every other creature that must drink it. All life on this planet is connected in the most profound way. I do not mean this at all in some mystical metaphysical way. I mean this in the most profound scientific way.


We need to stop this infantile behavior and now!
 eeeo4U
Joined: 6/25/2007
Msg: 50
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History
Race Relations in America...
Posted: 9/12/2008 9:07:22 AM
True prophets unfortunately do not find honor in their lifetimes, only in death...

I hate to say this and it goes against my emotional grain, but...follow the money!!!

If blacks or Asians or Native Americans were exploited and displaced, it was for the money...either labor or resources they had and by being villified, it was possible to justify basically stealing from them. Now there are those who call for reparations...as my good buddy Glenn Beck says, Reparation H!!! I come from Irish and Sicilian ancestry...need I detail the oppression, discrimination and deprivation suffered by my ancestors at the hands of the Anglo-Saxons and mainland Italians respectively? I never turn down money, but I think it would be foolish to ask for it...
 cncgandolf
Joined: 7/29/2007
Msg: 57
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History
Race Relations in America...
Posted: 9/12/2008 9:37:51 AM
"It's just a matter of aquaintence ....."

When I was in Ireland this spring our tour operator talked of an incident in the Norther Ireland conflict in which a Catholic and Protestant kid were hanging out and some anti-catholics killed ... the protestant kid not knowing he was a protestant. He talked of it as a turning point as the new generation had friends being killed.

I will debate that the person has to be more than an acquaintance to break the racissm for that person - friends is required. I know several people who do not think of themselves as racists, but if you listen to them they are actually quite two-faced about those of other ethnic and social backgrounds. Fine as acquaintances of that one person ... but racist about that person behind their back and about all others of their ethnicity ... all while claiming they are not bigots.

We've made progress..... or just moved on to other things to be bigoted about. I do agree with the poster who suggests to "follow the money." A lot of bigotry is practice to justify greedy actions. However, some is for other reasons, too.
 zabet
Joined: 10/27/2007
Msg: 58
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History
Race Relations in America...
Posted: 9/12/2008 9:45:38 AM
Stranger, unless you're lying about your age you're the same age as I am, 58, and I was under ten all through the fifties. You really expect me to believe you were listening to Malcolm at that age, and understood what he was talking about, and remember it? What's your real agenda?
 kabiosile
Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 68
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History
Race Relations in America...
Posted: 9/12/2008 11:41:06 AM
Everyone remembers the I have a dream speech given by Martin Luther King but, so few remember what he said besides the I have a dream part. This part I selected from his speech is often forgotten and ignored by the militants and separatists. They ignore the righteousness and profound truth of what Dr. King spoke. It is still relevant today.




But there is something that I must say to my people who stand on the warm threshold which leads into the palace of justice. In the process of gaining our rightful place we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred.

We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence. Again and again we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting physical force with soul force. The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to distrust of all white people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny and their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom. We cannot walk alone.

And as we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall march ahead. We cannot turn back. There are those who are asking the devotees of civil rights, "When will you be satisfied?" We can never be satisfied as long as our bodies, heavy with the fatigue of travel, cannot gain lodging in the motels of the highways and the hotels of the cities. We cannot be satisfied as long as the Negro's basic mobility is from a smaller ghetto to a larger one. We can never be satisfied as long as a Negro in Mississippi cannot vote and a Negro in New York believes he has nothing for which to vote. No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream.

I am not unmindful that some of you have come here out of great trials and tribulations. Some of you have come fresh from narrow cells. Some of you have come from areas where your quest for freedom left you battered by the storms of persecution and staggered by the winds of police brutality. You have been the veterans of creative suffering. Continue to work with the faith that unearned suffering is redemptive.

Go back to Mississippi, go back to Alabama, go back to Georgia, go back to Louisiana, go back to the slums and ghettos of our northern cities, knowing that somehow this situation can and will be changed. Let us not wallow in the valley of despair.



Now allow me if I may to speak personally to both "sides."

I have lived the vast majority of my life in neighborhoods that were considered poor and black. There were plenty of other groups intermingled here and there as well as is the case in general. I have a unique perspective here. Because in my family there are Black ,white, native americans, hispanic etc.

I believe the vast majority of Americans are mixed of many ethnic groups and "races" yet, we still cling to this "black" and "white" thing. Many whom are angry about their situation cling to militant types on either side. The point I am getting at is both militant sides of the argument are clueless, wrong and will both lead to the same. They both believe separation is the answer when that has already been proven wrong.

Separation leads to further misunderstanding and further violence because, the fact is people find it easier to commit acts of violence against someone they do not know and cannot identify with.

It is exactly how people get soldiers to lay waste to "their enemies." You dehumanize them. Because once the soldier thinks of the other side as human brother and sisters and puts himself into the shoes of the people he is bombing and killing. There will be a moment of contemplation, followed by empathy, guilt, then compassion and there will be a break down of will to continue the slaughter because at the core of every human is the capacity for love and compassion which is more powerful than anything in the universe.
I personally believe this that we call love is of God if not God itself. Though one need not even believe in God or be religious to feel that which is innately in all of us. We must give this love to our children and each other to the maximum, if we ever wish to break out of this cycle of destructive behavior and mature as the human creature!



No problem, I realize most people think Da Nile is a river in Africa


I do not think denial is the issue here though there are many who probably do deny the reality that today in spite of the progress made there is still a long way to go with regards to equality and most importantly healing.

I think often the issue as far as the humans who refer to themselves as "white" goes is they have this thing called guilt. Why a people who had nothing to do with what past generations did feel guilty for this I have no clue but, it exists and many on the other side play on it. We cannot change the past yet, many of those on the "black" side often tend to dwell there to the detriment often of our common cause which we all claim to seek resolution to.

Certainly we should never forget what happened or how this came to be lest we god forbid repeat it but, we need to stay in the now and fix that which we can do something about as opposed to fixating on the past forgetting that we can make a difference now!

This is a cause of ending this continuing injustice not only to the "blacks" we should not just stop there but, the poor in general suffer great injustice. The group referred to as "blacks" however ARE disproportionately effected and this is an undeniable fact.

The way to fix this problem is not to start hating the group reffering to themselves or referred to by others as "whites" my dear brothers and sisters. This is will do nothing but perpetuate the madness and instead of "white supremacy" we will have "black supremacy" and any argument one might have had of righteousness goes down the toilet because instead of fighting against these ignorant supremacist and separatist people within this made up group, you will have become one yourself and whom will free us from your tyranny?

The answer is not to poke our fingers in the wounds of each other. The path to freedom for all is to make people aware and bring them to the understanding that we must find ways to live in peace and we must protect justice for ALL and not be convinced that any group of people is our enemies.. We are all brothers and sisters and what harms one group of us harms us all.

We cannot win this battle or any battle by choosing a separate side then start throwing harsh words and poking each others wounds. After the words no longer satisfy our anger we turn to hatred. Once that takes over people start to do unspeakable things to each other and violence begins to take it toll. This cycle is extremely hard to stop because suffering breeds more suffering until a person finds a way to break out by sheer force of spirit and change of mind. Something which in their weakness they did not realize we did not even need to go there to get the same result.

There is no strength in war, only weakness. There is only strength in love and compassion. If you start to do bad things to me it take no strength for me to do violent things to you. I merely need to give into anger and hatred and act out.

If you do bad things to me it takes great strength to remain with love and compassion in my heart. To continue to do the right thing in spite of your nonsense. To stand against your bad ways in righteousness. I am not saying one should be a coward and use nonviolence as an excuse. I am saying it take EXTREME bravery to stand against wickedness and remain nonviolent. One might in the process lay their life down as so many who have championed nonviolence have. This sacrifice however strengthens the movement and has never once diminished it. Look at the power of Jesus, Gandhi, Dr. King, and others who have given their lives for this cause.

We have almost broken free, yet we have not got to the point of forgiveness and reconciliation. This will not happen as long as people wish to argue and hold this issue over each others heads. What needs to happen is for us to listen to each other, and stop talking AT each other so much and taking sides.

I have great hope and faith in the one group who are by their own choice dividing themselves and others into two or many groups of "black" and "white" etc.

The sad thing is we are one people who for whatever reason have not yet learned we are one. When we figure this one out we will be free for reconciliation and this begins with forgiveness, compassion, love and empathy.

People who are alive today had nothing to do with what happened in the past when they were not alive but, they do have a direct impact on what is going on now and can also help to heal the injustices of the past which still resonate to this day.

Think instead of how to help bring us together instead of assuming everyone wants to be top dog. The problem is whoever takes over as top dog inevitably becomes corrupted by the desire to control and dominate and thus, becomes just as wicked as the previous top dog.

We have to learn top dog is no desirable place for anyone. The desirable place we need to reach as humanity is ONE or unity regardless of physical features, place of origin, etc.

Our man made system perpetuates disparity and separation and this is what is perpetuating injustice. We need to close the gap between richest and poorest before we will ever fully get over our foolish misconceptions of race, class and the other man made separations we use to purposely or in many cases unknowingly perpetuate injustices our man made systems impose all over the world.

I believe after seeing what powerful things people such as Dr. King, Gandhi, the Dalai lama, Mandela and every other person all over the world who work everyday to bringing man to their senses in the name of justice, have done through purely peaceful means, by simply appealing to the good nature of man, and standing bravely and peacefully against those who oppose that goodness. Through these deeds and profound accomplishments we can see that there is a great hope still, and that we shall overcome some day.

To those of you who believe in militant approaches.
Even if war is erroneously used to try to bring about peace. I tell you now that the war is not what brings the peace. The same thing brings the peace if war is used or not. Peace does not come because of the war, if it comes at all after a war it comes in spite of war and this is only when mankind is disgusted and fed up with the atrocities of war so much so, that they finally do what they were being to stubborn or foolish to try in the first place.

Reject violence and Live in peace while upholding justice for all. This is the only way to true peace and it IS possible no matter how much some wish to convince you that it is not.

We can do this without war we never needed war to begin with because all change comes from within and not from without.










 kabiosile
Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 72
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History
Race Relations in America...
Posted: 9/12/2008 12:38:33 PM


No other race in America has and is treated as Black people are and to deny that in my opinion is denile.


This is not true. If one believes this they should study the history of the world a bit more. All "races" of mankind have been held in chattel slavery. In fact I believe many consider the people of spain to be "white" They were dominated and held as slaves by the moors for longer than the blacks were held as slaves here.



While Americans typically use the term "slavery" specifically in reference to pre-Civil War slaves in the Southern United States, here's a sad but true statement: Humankind has been enslaving each other for as long as history has been recorded. The early-English enslaved Irish Catholics; the Moors enslaved the Spanish before the Spanish enslaved the Moors and Cubans; the Ottomans enslaved the Balkans and Turks; the Egyptians enslaved the Jews; the Greeks and Romans enslaved seemingly everyone. While people think of slavery as a thing of the past, it's happened in recent history (Stalin enslaved those he exiled to Siberia to work in his factories, and the Nazi labor camps are nothing but slave camps) and still happens today. In modern Africa, Nigerians still trade children and in Ghana, a man can be punished for a crime by being forced to turn over a daughter to his victim.

Historically, slaves are usually people of a different (considered inferior) ethnic, national, religious, or tribal orientation. Sometimes slaves are prisoners of war; while in other cultures, people convicted of crimes are sold into slavery. Still other times (as in the case of early-American slaves from Africa), societies plagued with poverty, overpopulation, or technological inferiority are either forcibly taken as slaves or willingly traded to more developed nations.


CliffsNotes.com. What prompted slavery? Why were the Africans chosen for enslavement? 12 Sep 2008
.

Before the spanish took africans as slaves the moors took them as slaves.
Look we have no oppressor other than ourselves. Every group of people on this planet at one time or another has been enslaved, oppressed, slaughtered, raped, and every other horror man can dream of. Africans are not alone in this at all.

Do a bit of research into history love. It is loaded with atrocities committed against every so called race on the planet.

There was an african man who was once a slave in brazil named Zumbi.He escaped and led a huge rebellion and maroon society. He said it best, "The only man who can become and remain a slave is one who is afraid of death."

We all have a role in our own enslavement especially today when so many are enslaved and do not even realize it.

This is not some excuse for the deeds and atrocities of others. I stand firmly against ALL forms of slavery. My point is that you are making up an oppressor and blaming problems on them. There is and never was more than one oppressor and that has always been the self. Once you break free of this system of thought you will be forever free no matter what they do to your body.

You said it best I want the same for my oppressor that I want for myself. Do you know why? because you are your oppressor love.


 kabiosile
Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 74
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History
Race Relations in America...
Posted: 9/12/2008 1:06:58 PM

I am not making up an oppressor and blaming problems on him. I have not once mentioned a problem of mine and pointed any blame. Black people, many people are oppressed in this day, some self inflicted some not. It may be physical, mental or spiritual enslavement. Slavery has been in existence probably as long as man. Where there are slaves there are oppressors, I didn't make them up.


Love you are missing my point.

No matter what form of oppression there is no oppressor other than the self.

The other people who we call our oppressors merely use tactics to make us oppress ourselves. In the end no man or woman can be oppressed without participation in their own oppression. Please we must learn this to stop being oppressed. Spread the word if you want freedom look within and set yourself free no matter what people threaten you with. You can never be taken from freedom unless you allow it! Freedom begins and ends in the mind of the individual. No one has the power to take this away from you but you.

 kabiosile
Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 77
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History
Race Relations in America...
Posted: 9/12/2008 1:23:46 PM


I totally agree with the oppression of the mind and that is why Blacks are still feeling the effects from the physical and mental oppression that happened years ago.


It is not because of what happened years ago. None of us were alive then and few even know the half of the real story.

It is what happens every day a person decides to remain oppressed that continues the pain. It is the hopelessness people are convincing themsleves that nothing can change and they just have to remain in their assumed place...

Dr. King was not acting like an oppressed person... you ever wonder why?

He wouldnt allow such a thing there was no time for it. He saw through the bullshit and embodied the change he wished to see in the world and the world followed.

All the "bad" things that happen to us are like shit but, that shit can be used as fertilizer to grow the most magnificent flowers the world has seen. It can also be left to stagnate and just stink and cause disease but, it is up to us to make the transformation or rot and be recycled.



 kabiosile
Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 79
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History
Race Relations in America...
Posted: 9/12/2008 1:32:00 PM


There's also a huge problem with the Hispanic population... in addition to illegal immigration. There's gang war in SoCal. That's a big race relations problem... and it's not just between different races, it's between Mexican nationals and Mexican/Americans (US citizens)... Nortenos and Sorenos...There are also race problems with blacks being attacked on the streets by Hispanics. Vietnamese gangs in San Jose and San Francisco have done home takeover robberies against Chinese recently.


The problem is not with the hispanic population or any other so called population. The problem is with the whole damned society. Our system which is made by us, make it all about a competition of wealth and recognition and make few ways to achieve such things that are beneficial to mankind. I dropped out of that foolishness long ago.

If we glorify being rich and famous while others suffer the consequences for others to have their wealth and recognition do you not think they will find a way to achieve that which is so cherished even if it means doing sick things to get it?

Fastest way to get rid of gangs is get rid of disparity and to stop the madness.

Legalization of drugs will also get rid of much of the funding of gangs but, most importantly we must stop glorifying gangsters. Our culture is obsessed with them. So of course the children who do not have much opportunity will turn to this road to wealth and recognition.

We have to make better examples for them, and close the gap between the rich and poor and this will be a non issue.
 kabiosile
Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 81
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History
Race Relations in America...
Posted: 9/12/2008 1:51:21 PM


This country is definitely plagued with race issues. I think participating in forums and discussions such as this, is a good start in educating each other about the plights we all face.


Yes mam!

Nothing better in the world than people getting together and realizing their common bonds, and seeing things through together. We need to build bridges together with people who want to make positive change and work together for justice for all and against injustice everywhere, instead of being tricked into fighting with each other so other people can come and conquer our little divided groups and dominate us all.
 kabiosile
Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 82
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History
Race Relations in America...
Posted: 9/12/2008 1:56:34 PM


What caused the initial oppression and hopelessness if what happened years ago have nothing to do with today?

You and I are in agreement as a way of getting out of oppression. And even after the mental chains are released that people hold onto, there will still exist racism. I don't view myself as oppressed, but I know my people are, Black People.


The initial oppression and hopelessness began with fear. I did not say it had absolutely nothing to do with today. People certainly use those issues as the basis of their to make people feel hopeless and oppressed. I am saying the continuation of it is due to self oppression which can be broken free of.

All mankind is vulnerable to being oppressed even the ruling class oppresses themselves to be less than what they can be by thinking and acting in ways less than their own great nature the nature that all mankind share. The capacity to be a great and loving compassionate being. We can be such awesome creatures if we just changed our priorities in the smallest of ways. Many of the problems we face have the simplest of answers but, we keep turning to the same o same o and nothing new becomes of it.

We then keep turning to people to save us from our own prisons. They then take advantage of us in every way that fancies them.
 thatswhatshesaid
Joined: 12/28/2007
Msg: 84
Race Relations in America...
Posted: 9/12/2008 3:00:44 PM
That's the magic of the abortion issue for republicans, just as much as race.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 86
Race Relations in America...
Posted: 9/12/2008 5:38:02 PM
All mankind is vulnerable to being oppressed even the ruling class oppresses themselves to be less than what they can be by thinking and acting in ways less than their own great nature the nature that all mankind share. The capacity to be a great and loving compassionate being


Excuse for not feeling sorry for the self-oppressed ruling class when they choose to be prisoners of their own desires for power and greed. It is their choice to bring destruction and suffering onto other people so that they can accumulate more wealth for their themselves and their own descendants. Then, their descendants will just as well forget how they came to be so well off, and if pushed to recognize that they are benefitting from the crimes commited by their ancestors, they will just say that the new generations weren't around then, so they aren't responsible for whatever happened back then, so the best thing should be that we try to get along because we are all oppressed now. Again, excuse me if I don't buy it!
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 89
Race Relations in America...
Posted: 9/13/2008 8:55:06 AM

Sorry, doll, but that dog wont hunt.
The Clintons were supported by African Americans only by about 60%, not 90%, and obviously they are democrats.


http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/10/martin.bias/index.html#cnnSTCText


Sorry, doll, back to you with your link which won't hunt for you. I kind of remember having the same problem a while ago on another topic, where you pasted a link that didn't prove your point. Exactly the same case with this one. There is no mention of the lower percentage of support for the Clintons in yopur link. Not a very honest attempt to get involved in a serious discussion.

I will repeat that the issue of "reverse racism" or "racialism" without substantial proof is a favorite strategy of the groups associated with the likes of Aryan Nation.
 faith2565
Joined: 3/25/2006
Msg: 95
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History
Race Relations in America...
Posted: 11/9/2008 5:59:19 PM
I think this will effect how we view ourselves. No more excuses. Yes, racism exist, but now we see that the tide is turning.
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