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Show ALL Forums  > Current Events  > CNBC basically just said we are all F**KED.      Home login  
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 d0rene
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 13
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CNBC basically just said we are all F**KED. Page 3 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)

If the dollar really is getting ready to collapse, then now would seem like the time to load up on as much personal debt as you can get your hands on and use it to purchase "real assets" because it will likely cost less to pay it off later.


Somebody is going to want the paid for personal debt, and they set the value on what assets you have. I wouldn't want to load up on personal debt either . . . .
 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 14
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CNBC basically just said we are all F**KED.
Posted: 9/13/2008 5:49:18 PM
Actually, the US government has too much in the way of assets to qualify for bankruptcy. Military equipment and bases, infrastructure, mineral resources, national parks, real estate. Once all those are auctioned off, the remaining debt is manageable.
 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 15
CNBC basically just said we are all F**KED.
Posted: 9/13/2008 7:34:18 PM
Honestly, the big problem is that the US gov isn't really focusing on what the government is supposed to do. The government is supposed to do for the people what they can't do for themselves. However, the problem is that the government does some things that the people can do on their own and doesn't do some things that people can't do on their own. One of the major things we can't do, as people, on our own is secure mortgages to stimulate home ownership. Simply put, they require so much money to operate that there is too great a barrier to entry to allow capitalism to work there.

Beyond that, the US does another thing that isn't the job of a government. A government is supposed to protect it's populous. Effectiveness of preemptive war aside, it's not economically feasible. Preemptive war against every country that might attack us costs more than cleaning up after an attack and only retaliating. The same is actually also true for terrorism response and natural disasters. This is the opposite of how some things work (like medicine) so it's confusing to many people and preventative measures and preemptive war are amazing sources of government pork, but it doesn't actually work well.

On a note that I don't want to say out loud, lest someone else think it's a good idea, but the US protects far more than its citizens. Ostensibly, we are protecting the whole world from acts of terrorism. Therefore, the US is spending money to help people other than the US. However, they do not pay the US back for "protecting the world from terrorism." So we are providing a service and not expecting compensation. Any idiot can tell you that if you own a pizzeria and give people pizza without expecting money in return, you will run out of money. Unfortunately, the US government hasn't figured that out yet. So the logical solution is either stop throwing so much money into other countries or start taxing the citizens of other countries for the services we provide.

On an unrelated note, the reason that the government is bailing out the big companies instead of people is because the US doesn't have the resources available to actually fix the problem. The reason that Fannie and Freddie are having problems all relates back to the mortgage crisis where the banks basically gave more money to people than they gave back. The difference in the two values is why these banks are failing. They gave away money but didn't get it back. The US gov can't afford to give that difference to every single person who can't keep up their housing payments. So, they are hoping that they can give the banks enough money to allow the banks to invest and hopefully recoup as much as they can (because larger chunks of money can her higher percentage returns).

So to sum up everything: the government isn't doing its job, it's doing other peoples jobs, and that when you make enough trades where you get less than you give you run out of money.

Also, I think we should just sell off the entirety of the military to raise money.
 waffleone3
Joined: 5/12/2008
Msg: 16
CNBC basically just said we are all F**KED.
Posted: 9/13/2008 7:53:26 PM
All,
Peace be with you. The economic collapse has been planned for a while now. This month we are seeing it actually happen. What to do about it?? Get out of the US dollar.
The Fed stopped publishing the M3, or total amount of $$ in circulation right after we refused to work out the deal with United Arab Emirates for our ports. This was over a debt the the US couldn't pay back, I understand. So what nation in their right mind would accept US dollars for anything??? There is no way to know what the value of a US dollar is relative to the value of the US because you don't know how many of the dollars have been printed. Israel won't even accept the US dollar now for foreign aid! You can't even give the darn things away to that country.
We have all been pledged as collateral for $$ which the US government has borrowed. The use our birth certificates and SS numbers to borrow over $1million on every head in this country. Without telling us a thing about this. Can you say FRAUD?
What can we do??? We need to take back our strawman (our all-caps name) by filing a financing agreement. Then WE become first in line for any benefits derived from our strawmman, and excluding the govt. and their creditors. Otherwise, WE will be liable for the government's debt!!! There are many videos on this subject on you tube. Here are just a few:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNRsFsQDzTQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c49q3PGof2w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPH5ikNKaVE

Don't wait until the collapse! Time is short. Babylon is fallen!
 DHinDublin
Joined: 3/19/2005
Msg: 17
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Restore the Constitution
Posted: 9/13/2008 8:01:18 PM
The best advice I have heard on this subject is being proposed by a group called Downsize DC. http://www.downsizedc.org

They have initiatives toward policies such as:

One Subject at a Time Act - would require Congress to only have bills with one subject. And the title would have to accurately represent the content. This would keep them from naming bills such as the "Patriot Act", "No Child Left Behind Act," or the "Protect America Act." and then tagging unrelated, expensive, and often pork-filled amendments onto them. Then Congressmen and Senators are afraid to vote against a propagandistic title. No one wants to be accused of voting to leave children behind, or against patriotism, or against protecting America, but none of these bill titles actually describe the subjects of these bills.

Read the Bills Act - Would require Congress to actually read aloud in session every word of every law they pass. Most bills are mammoth, and many additions are added secretly at the last minute unknown to most of the Congressmen that vote on them. And that every bill be posted on the Internet for 7 days before passage to allow public comment.

Write the Laws Act - Require Congress to actually write the bills they pass. Also require them to:
Congress write specific legislation, with no details left to the bureaucrats.
All allegations of wrong-doing be tried in Judicial Branch courts, not by bureaucrats.
All punishments be rendered by judges, not bureaucrats.
Executive Branch agencies be limited to investigation and prosecution.
Citizens be held blameless against any government actions that violate these rules.
Previous legislation granting legislative and judicial power to bureaucrats be identified so it can be repealed.

Enumerated Powers Act - Requires Congress to cite the specific, "enumerated" powers of Congress that are spelled out in Article of I Section 8 the Constitution with each bill they pass. Most bills they pass are in fact, unconstitutional, and they have no constitutional right to enforce them.

All these together would slow down the pace of legislation, give the people the ability to see what indeed Congress is doing, give our elected representatives the ability to vote on each bill on ONE subject's merit, and generally decrease the needless spending that is rampant.

This is a good start toward bringing fiscal responsibility back to C0ngress. That, and to abolish the Federal Reserve Bank, which is not a government agency, but a group of private bankers that Congress unconstitutionally gave the power to control the currency. They create the bubbles and busts, control the interest rates, and regulate the monetary supply which has greatly devalued our dollar.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 18
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History
Restore the Constitution
Posted: 9/13/2008 8:27:12 PM
^^^ Amazing post, DHinDublin. I am totally in favour of these policies becoming adopted in the UK, as I think it will help my country as well.

On topic: We've already had an announcement here in the UK, that the EU predicted depressions in the UK, Germany and Spain. But us Brits are just accepting it, as it is better to face a depression, than stick our heads in the sand and have it bury us in it.

I think you guys have to face the music, too. That, or bury you heads in the sand, and wait until the Mexicans buy your country for a few pesos.
 gizmosellschickens
Joined: 5/20/2007
Msg: 19
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History
Restore the Constitution
Posted: 9/14/2008 3:13:11 AM
First, the great depression happened when the bank tightened in this situation instead of losening up the credit lines. Second, exchange rates were fixed during the 1920s and 1930s to gold. Third, Scandivian countries that delinked thier currencies away from gold suffered mild recession while countries that stuck to the Gold Standard like the Untied States suffered.

The banking problems of 2007 and 2008 are nothing like the Great Depression because 94% of the economy is growing its just housing and automotive sector knocking points off GDP growth. Most countries now have floating exchange rates, and central banks jobs are to maxiumize economic stability thru maximum employement and to keep inflation low as possible.

Europe and Untied States economy will recover mostly by mid 2009 and other sectors like housing and automotive will probadly be stuck in recessionary situation for five to ten years. Berarnke may be throwing money out of the helicopter but is doing the right thing by providing liquity for the markets to move this toxic waste out of the market.
Not a fear monger and doomsey is not gonna occur Ron Paul is correct being concered about erroison of purchasing power of cosumer. Yet, the basketcase of goods a buyer pays for is a lot different in 1999 than in 2008.
 DHinDublin
Joined: 3/19/2005
Msg: 20
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History
Restore the Constitution
Posted: 9/14/2008 8:52:02 AM
Yes, both the previous posters are correct in a sense. There always have been times like these when the power of banks is left to run rampant.

To quote Ron Paul from the Congressional Record on September 10, 2002:
http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2002/cr091002b.htm

"From the Great Depression, to the stagflation of the seventies, to the burst of the dotcom bubble last year, every economic downturn suffered by the country over the last 80 years can be traced to Federal Reserve policy. The Fed has followed a consistent policy of flooding the economy with easy money, leading to a misallocation of resources and an artificial "boom" followed by a recession or depression when the Fed-created bubble bursts."

In 1967, Alan Greenspan once wrote an article called Gold and Economic Freedom. He wrote that:
"An almost hysterical antagonism toward the gold standard is one issue which unites statists of all persuasions. They seem to sense--perhaps more clearly and subtly than many consistent defenders of laissez-faire--that gold and economic freedom are inseparable, that the gold standard is an instrument of laissez-faire and that each implies and requires the other. . . . This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights."

Greenspan knew that the wealthy are behind this separation of currency from the gold standard, and through their complicated economic mechanisms, only the Rockefeller class would benefit from this. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to research the evolution of the modern economic policies since the inception of the Federal Reserve Bank, the elite families behind it and the subsequent beneficiaries of the policies.

Artificial manipulation of unsupported money supply is behind most of the woes the OP brings up.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 21
CNBC basically just said we are all F**KED.
Posted: 9/14/2008 10:43:04 AM
Greenspan knew that the wealthy are behind this separation of currency from the gold standard, and through their complicated economic mechanisms, only the Rockefeller class would benefit from this. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to research the evolution of the modern economic policies since the inception of the Federal Reserve Bank, the elite families behind it and the subsequent beneficiaries of the policies.

What a load of crap.

Dude, gold has ALMOST ZERO intrinsic value.

It does not "protect" property or property rights. The ONLY value gold has is the value that the recipient is willing to arbitrarily place on it because its overall usefulness to the average individual is minimal.

And please, do try to NOT devolve this topic into a rant about "elite families" and "international banking conspiracies".
 maxxoccupancy
Joined: 2/5/2007
Msg: 22
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We need to reduce public spending.
Posted: 9/14/2008 6:31:28 PM
We've all heard that we, as private citizens, need to spend less and save more. Unfortunately, these same public officials have been increasing federal spending far more, leaving the national debt of around $9 trillion, or around $30,000 for every man, woman, and child in America. Worse is the fact that the entitlement crisis has still not been addressed. I think that most American investors now see that Washington, DC, is not going to do anything to address the serious problems we're currently facing. The government still pays millions of Americans to now work, not grow crops, or sit behind a desk doing pushing forms all day. Half of our able bodied people are not producing, and the politicians are blaming us.
 DHinDublin
Joined: 3/19/2005
Msg: 23
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History
Restore the Constitution
Posted: 9/14/2008 7:14:50 PM
OK, maybe it does take a rocket scientist.

Gold has no intrinsic value? I don't think intrinsic is the word you mean. What would you tie the value of a currency to? Obviously tying it to money supply has been disastrous.

When you have the entity that controls the money supply making money off deficit spending by loaning money to the US government, you have a conflict of interest. Hence the OP's original statements of impending disaster.

And mungo, you may want to research the major shareholders of the Fed and tell me what their names are.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 24
Restore the Constitution
Posted: 9/14/2008 8:00:56 PM

Gold has no intrinsic value? I don't think intrinsic is the word you mean.

Intrinsic is exactly the word I mean.

It means "in and of itself" or "as an inherent quality of". Chickens, cows and crops in the field have intrinsic value, gold does not.

That means it's value is entirely arbitrary, determined only by what the recipient is prepared to accept it in exchange for.

What would you tie the value of a currency to?

Nothing more than public confidence in the issuer. Like gold, it has no intrinsic value either, its valuation is also determined by the value the recipient is prepared to attach to it.

And mungo, you may want to research the major shareholders of the Fed and tell me what their names are.

That's right, keep it up and get the thread deleted.
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 25
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Restore the Constitution
Posted: 9/15/2008 2:44:30 AM
The value of currency is essentially a matter of trust and confidence in the entity printing it.
You can print all the money you want but you can't print more confidence.

In bailing out Freddie and Fannie the government is taking a tremendous gamble.
Like a life guard trying to save a drowning man, he must avoid getting pulled under himself. Freddie and Fannie are so huge ( $5 trillion worth ) the government has to be careful not to get caught up in a bottomless money pit.

If foreign investors start to lose confidence in U.S. Government bonds, then our government won't be able to finance all the things it wants and needs to do. Especially things like, pay it's own employees. People must realise how much the U.S. economy depends upon all the things the government does.

You can always print more money, but you can't print confidence.

If you think this little mortgage crisis is bad ?
Wait until people start defaulting on their credit card debts en mass.
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 26
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CNBC basically just said we are all F**KED.
Posted: 9/15/2008 10:27:30 AM
Imagine that Fred and Sam are friends.
Fred is a worthless bum who's broke and never pays back the money he's borrowed.
Sam is trustworthy and pays pack what he borrows.

Sam comes to you and asks for a loan of $100.
You give Sam the money.
Sam turns around and gives the money to that worthless bum Fred.

You ask, " Why did you give the money to that bum Fred " ? " Fred is a bum and wont pay you back " ! " If I wanted Fred to have the money I would have given it to him myself " !
Sam tells you, " I can't let Fred go hungry, I have to give Fred the money ".
You say, " If you're only going to give the money to Fred, I'm not lending you any more money ".

Governments and Corporations raise money by selling bonds.
Nobody would buy Freddie's bonds because they knew they weren't any good.
People would buy Sam's bonds because they trusted they were good.
If people loose trust in Sam's bonds they wont buy them anymore.

If people loose trust in Uncle Sam's bonds they wont buy them and Uncle Sam can't raise the money to buy all that stuff he wants to anymore. Like, Aircraft Carriers and Fighter Jets. Uncle Sam can't meet his payroll anymore. Uncle Sam has to abandon his " War on Terror " because he can't pay for it any more.
Uncle Sam can't pay for all that stuff people depend on for their living anymore.
Companies like Boeing, Lockheed, Chrysler, can't get contracts anymore and lay people off.
Trickle down wealth becomes trickle down poverty.

This is the problem the new president will face when he takes office next year.
 Simlasa
Joined: 10/30/2004
Msg: 27
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History
CNBC basically just said we are all F**KED.
Posted: 9/15/2008 10:33:19 AM
I'm struggling to understand the current economic debacle... everyone is running around blaming everyone else... there's very little clarity.
Something I do know is that many people I know are in debt... have been in debt for years... have been living beyond their means for years and slowly driving up their debt.
I now know three families who have been forced to move out of their homes... one because the owner was flipping properties and got caught with his pants down... another who was renting one of that owner's properties and had to leave when it went into foreclosure... and a third who moved in to a house with a mortgage she obviously couldn't afford.

So I'm thinking... if this is the current culture... if so many people I know are living so outside their means... I'm assuming that there is a lot of that everywhere... at all levels... that a LOT of people have been in denial about the reality of their funding... and that goes for corporations as well.
It's not the majority of my friends who are in trouble... but for the ones that are, their combined debt would probably be enough to drag down ALL my friends.

I'm wondering if the microcosm... microeconomics... are a good reflection of the macro.
 ________
Joined: 12/24/2006
Msg: 28
CNBC basically just said we are all F**KED.
Posted: 9/15/2008 3:23:07 PM
This all sounds a bit "Chicken Little"... sure the collapse will shave a few trillion in phony value off the real estate market -- but did anybody really think the prices could only go up for housing.... Forever...?

What better time for a major collapse of the world credit markets than in the middle of a presidential election...? And it's not even OCTOBER yet!

The best is yet to come. Glad I sold off about about $360,000 in mutual funds over the last two months. I just wish I had converted even more to cash.
 Eric2008
Joined: 2/17/2008
Msg: 29
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History
CNBC basically just said we are all F**KED.
Posted: 9/15/2008 9:31:07 PM
Does the term ninja loan mean anything to anybody?Most of the deregulation that is causing most of the current problems took place10-12 years ago.
A ninja loan means you qualify even though you have .....NO INCOME...NO JOB/ASSETS.
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 30
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CNBC basically just said we are all F**KED.
Posted: 9/16/2008 1:55:32 AM
This is not Chicken Little or Doomsday prophecy.
This is a very real and serious crisis which really could throw us into a world wide depression.
For a lot of years, a lot of mortgage brokers were selling loans to people they knew damn well didn't understand about them and couldn't pay for them.
Government regulation should have been there to keep this from happening.
But, we elected people into government who didn't believe there should be any government. They didn't believe there should be any regulations for anything at all.
We have listened to the " Government is the problem " preachers for the last 30 years and now we are going to pay for our foolishness.
 OneBlend
Joined: 3/31/2007
Msg: 31
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CNBC basically just said we are all F**KED.
Posted: 9/16/2008 4:22:02 PM

Fear mongering.

Yes, so much so that ALL the candidates admit we're in a crisis .. but our economic fundamentals are sound, right?
Must be a farce, huh?

Ceecee IS absolutely right...about ALL of it! If it weren't for the U.S., the WHOLE damn world would've been doing the "Nazi goose-step"! CNBC is just another liberal "piece of shit" news organization who doesn't know their head from their ass!

We will be doing the Nazi "goose step" .. better learn it now and have your dancing shoes on when it's your turn to dance. You may collect your .50 cents now.
 OneBlend
Joined: 3/31/2007
Msg: 32
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CNBC basically just said we are all F**KED.
Posted: 9/16/2008 7:49:21 PM
Yeah.."Irresponsible" is an ideal description. Nothing mean spirited about it when it's the truth.

And you don't think lenders were being irresponsible when they overlooked the repercussions of their predatory lending? If you worked in the mortgage industry you'd know things were not always on the up and up.
Don't think they'd work the figures to approve people for mortgages they know people would otherwise not be approved for? Think again. When your bread and butter depends solely on you selling something ... trust me, there were a lot of opportunists out there that only cared about making their commissions. THAT is a fact. It happened and it happened often. Greed!
Many of the variety of mortgage products creatively were devised to lure unsuspecting people in. Well they did just that.
There are instances where people thought just because they were saving money on their mortgage, they could ring up their credit cards or take out equity loans on top of that. Now that is what I would call irresponsible.

It's a two way street.
Oh and lets not forget many people defaulted on their mortgages when they lost their jobs. Not like the pickins for jobs are out there anymore. FACT.
 d0rene
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 33
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CNBC basically just said we are all F**KED.
Posted: 9/17/2008 6:48:40 PM

Intrinsic is exactly the word I mean.

It means "in and of itself" or "as an inherent quality of". Chickens, cows and crops in the field have intrinsic value, gold does not.

That means it's value is entirely arbitrary, determined only by what the recipient is prepared to accept it in exchange for.


And can you explain to me exactly how you are going to transport all your cows, chickens, and crops across the country to buy land when you decide to move? How about if you decide to go to town to buy fabric? Are you going to drag one cow or three chickens in and barter there? Barter is fine for local purchases, but you need a recognized money supply for trade between states and countries.

Gold and silver are recognized valuable finite resources and have been viewed as such for a long time. Money is actually supposed to be stored resources, they represent time and supplies that have been worked for, metal coins cannot immediately be printed up and they don't burn in a fire. Look at the value of silver coins from the 60s and 70s, they have often kept their value intact with coin dealers. Listen to how the fed complains of the cost of minting copper (actually they can't afford anything but copper plate anymore) pennies. Congress wants to spend money faster than they can electronically imagine it -- which devalues the American dollar for the rest of us.
 very happy camper
Joined: 4/21/2008
Msg: 34
CNBC basically just said we are all F**KED.
Posted: 9/18/2008 10:57:03 AM

What should have happened in 1929 is precisely what should happen now. Let the price system prevail! The government should completely remove itself from the course of action and let the market reevaluate resource values. That means bankruptcies, yes. That means bank closures, yes. But these are part of the capitalistic system. They are part of the free-market economy.


I agree that this is the correct course of action. However, the government does need to play a role to ensure that a meltdown of this magnitude does not happen again. They need to arrest and imprison those who fraudulently enabled the housing bubble that started this off. Free enterprise is great and I support it, however it can be manipulated by fraudsters. The ratings agencies that gave ridiculous AAA ratings to portfolios of JUNK to earn ridiculous fees paid by investment bankers who knew what they were selling was JUNK. And the heads of Fannie/Freddie for insuring the ridiculous bubble because they were able to line their pockets. Many, many senior executives knew that they were fostering environments of greed in their organizations at the cost of ridiculously high and unacceptable risks. Those actions were criminal. Don't change the regulatory bodies, just enforce the regs that are there and lock a whole lot of them up, not one or two, 100s. And for a long time. And fine the hell out of their wealth.

There needs to be a visible and meaningful deterrent or this will happen all over again, just like it has in the past. Bubbles are formed by greed and fed by fraud that is bundled up in big corporate presentations that make it look pretty and legit.
 very happy camper
Joined: 4/21/2008
Msg: 35
CNBC basically just said we are all F**KED.
Posted: 9/18/2008 11:02:56 AM

More about families who "fell victim to" subprime lenders. Yeah, I'd also call that irresponsible. No wait...I DO and HAVE BEEN calling that irresponsible the whole time! I sure wish I could go out and do foolish things, confident that "somebody else" will come along and bail me out.


Lets be clear here. The bailouts aren't of the consumers who have been led along a garden path to insolvency (whether naively or not). It is of the companies and the mid-level executives that perpetrated much of this. This is not about government bailing out the poor guys, its about government trying to keep the institutions that have generated immense wealth for their friends and supporters from going under.
 very happy camper
Joined: 4/21/2008
Msg: 36
CNBC basically just said we are all F**KED.
Posted: 9/19/2008 6:57:31 AM

Oh Geez! I hang onto every word the British and Canadians say!
After all, their empires are doing so well! Lets switch to the Loony for universal currency and no dental plan! Oh!, what a world, what a world....


Just a couple thoughts. The Canadian banks and financial institutions are doing far better than the US ones BECAUSE we didn't gut our financial regulations like the US.

The British were perhaps even a mightier world power than the US, and for a much much longer time. Their day came, as will the US' at some point, and hopefully they learned some lessons.

BTW, why is this a we they thing. The world's economies are so completely intermingled now it isa fruitless exercise.
 ________
Joined: 12/24/2006
Msg: 37
CNBC basically just said we are all F**KED.
Posted: 9/19/2008 8:24:42 PM
You have to love the FREE ENTERPRISE model in the USA -- no public cash for UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE -- but HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of tax dollars to save the INVESTMENT BANKERS and STOCK MANIPULATORS who cheated, lied and scammed the system for their own short term gain........

Yes -- that makes perfect sense doesn't it...?.

If the greedy crooks can count on the government to save their asses --- what lesson are we learning here..? THAT IT'S FAR BETTER TO STEAL A BILLION THAN TO ROB A LIQUOR STORE FOR $175 I guess......
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