Notice: Forums will be shutdown by June 2019

To focus on better serving our members, we've decided to shut down the POF forums.

While regular posting is now disabled, you can continue to view all threads until the end of June 2019. Event Hosts can still create and promote events while we work on a new and improved event creation service for you.

Thank you!

Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Politics  >      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 86
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?Page 5 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)

why don't you say what you mean?

If you insist-- I mean that for a post attempting to summarize historical events and people, it was appallingly inaccurate.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 87
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?
Posted: 11/7/2011 8:34:13 AM
Ah, yes, you are correct. I was referring to the earlier post about the Founding Fathers escaping from the Catholic Church in England and coming to the US to start Protestantism. It didn't exactly go down like that.

Your post #93 was an even greater assault on my psyche. Taking your cue, I'll stick with the speechless bit. Now you know that me being speechless is the more charitable response.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 88
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?
Posted: 11/7/2011 8:56:22 AM
Yes, that might help you out. You will see that it does not claim, as you did earlier, that the Founding Fathers fled the Roman Catholic Church in England in protest and then came to the United States whereupon they started Protestantism.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 89
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?
Posted: 11/7/2011 4:38:43 PM
Well, thanks, DA. Seeing as we disagree on most everything here, I am surprised you think anything I say is "spot on."

As imported labor and notnomadic (welcome back! ;) have tried to point out as well, quite a few things are different than you described:

-Martin Luther founded Protestantism in Germany well before the New World (not the US yet) was colonized by Europeans
-it was the Church of England, aka Anglican Church or Episcopal Church here, not the Roman Catholic Church
-it was mainly the Puritans who fled England to colonize the New World because of persecution from the Anglican Church-- it was and is in many ways similar to the Catholic Church. Technically, I don't even think it classifies as a Protestant denomination, although it falls under that umbrella today. It wasn't started by Luther in Germany; it was founded by King Henry VIII of England due to his need for numerous divorces, I believe.
-the Founding Fathers didn't emmigrate to the New World, they were all born on this continent, descended from earlier colonists
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 91
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?
Posted: 11/8/2011 7:36:11 AM
Well, you learn something new everyday. I didn't know that the Anglican church is a Protestant one. My future mother-in-law is a staunch Catholic, while my stepfather is a part-time Episcopalean deacon. It is probably best that she believes there isn't much difference between the two churches...

There used to be a poster here who was a devout Calvinist like the Arminian Protestants. She made me realize that the concept of freewill is not a universally accepted one as many make it seem.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 93
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?
Posted: 11/13/2011 8:45:15 AM
Ah, yes, I see I got that backwards. This poster was Calivinist like the Puritans, not Arminians as I had said before. So, along those lines, I once asked this poster (no longer a member here) why God does choose these eternal destinations like that. She gave a very honest but unsatisfying answer: "I don't know."

As for prosperity teaching and its relationship to capitalist theory, I have noticed that it is becoming very popular. There's Robert Schuller of the Crystal Cathedral fame, and, more recently, Joel Osteen. Health, wealth, and prosperity are the natural outgrowths of a Godly life.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 95
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?
Posted: 11/15/2011 7:02:33 AM

Why would Jesus be a danger to anyone?


Jesus would not be a danger to anyone, except to those who crucified him. As I've said before, there have been people who have gone to different places throughout the globe carrying the bible in both hands and following the examples of Jesus have helped to save large numbers of people. They didn't get there claiming that they had arrived in their promised land and started taking possession of the natives land, specially of the tracts of fertile soil. No, they used their knowledge to help people to raise their level of education in the name of Jesus.

Now, If I saw someone landing on the communal land of my people, bringing a book on one hand and a gun in the other hand, and claiming that God and his son, Jesus, had promised him our land, then I would see that we would be in extreme danger.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 98
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?
Posted: 11/16/2011 4:46:01 PM

I would also see a political movement disguised as discipleship, which sought to reorganize a secular state according to a twisted interpretation of Christ's teachings in combination with a fundamental misunderstanding of history (in the process seeking to deny important rights to certain groups they deem 'other'), as dangerous.


That seems highly contradictory to the real experience of the Founding Fathers who were quite aware of the dangers of identifying the government with an official church. They wanted to avoid the pattern established in the European countries where the governments were in the hands of people closely associated with a specific church. They knew that it didn't matter what church or sect was in control of a region or country. Catholic, Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans, and their converts, they all engaged in religious persecution, expelling, torturing and killing those who wouldn't submit to their demands for conversion to their specific articles of faith. In many cases the religious aspects were mostly the ideological cover to hide the greed of those using their superior power to dispossess others of their belongings.

The most dispiriting thing about that history is that when those who escaped to America to practice freely their religion quickly started to impose the same rules that they were escaping from, and wherever they could, they persecuted others, even imposing on them the death penalty.

The Founding Fathers knew all that and, in their wisdom, managed to keep the government of the new republic from falling under the control of any of the churches of the time. They didn't reject Christianity, but they managed to keep those who would persecute others in the name of their faith from gaining control of the government.

Nowadays we see that Religion is still important in politics because there are some fanatical sects that haven't learnt from the past experiences, and in their ignorance they still view themselves as the chosen ones to impose their rules on the rest of humanity.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 102
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?
Posted: 11/23/2011 7:39:37 AM

That is precisely why this nation is full of many religions, unlike most, because our foundational documents were written and inspired by Christian men, obeying their God,


Precisely, and they also knew that if ANY church was in charge of the government, then the abuses in the name of religion that were the daily occurrence in Europe, and in Early America would continue unabated. That is the reason why they made sure that the Constitution and the Bill Rights established a clear separation between the power of the state and the power of the church.


obeying their God, one who unlike the god of Islam, does not command we kill, torture, and force conversion upon members of other religions, but love them as Christ loves us, and treat them with respect when possible, and tolerance when not


This leads me to ask: what in h.ll were the founders of the Christian religious sects founded by Martin Luther, John Calvin, and all the other religious branches that, in the name of Christ were torturing and killing people trying to convert them, or just killing them to steal from them whatever thing of value they had, with the excuse that they wanted them to convert to the torturer's religion? I am a Catholic, and I know that the Catholics were in that kind business of abusing other people with the excuse of religious purity. Most surely that is one reason why other Christian sects appeared, rising against the abuse, the torturing and the killing, but why would those new Christian sects, the Protestants as we know them, would continue doing the same abuses in the name of their God, torturing and killing the same people who were persecuted by the Catholics, and also for the same reason, supposedly, the purity of their religious beliefs?

How do you explain the fact that the Founders of Protestantism (not the Founding Fathers of America,) which most of Christian America identifies with were no different than the men of the Catholic Inquisition?
 VGLGuySksFun
Joined: 10/12/2011
Msg: 104
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?
Posted: 12/22/2011 7:37:06 AM
"This is a lie that has been so heavily indoctrinated on our citizens by secular humanism and the agenda behind it that I no longer feel anger but a deep sorrow."

Please explain your interpretation of how the following is applied :
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,..."


Also... please read the two quotes below and answer the questions:

"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them"

Why didn't Jefferson simply write "...and of God entitle them"... why "of nature's God"?


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Why didn't Jefferson state "that they are endowed by God... " rather than "by their Creator"?
 VGLGuySksFun
Joined: 10/12/2011
Msg: 107
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?
Posted: 1/16/2012 8:02:21 AM
After 66 years of failed overtly Christian Conservativism in the United States, perhaps it is time for the left to become a little fanatical.

As for Christianity, or for that matter any religion, no establishment of any religion should be made into law. Religion is a personal preference... not something to be imposed on an entire society by even the majority.
 blackprince
Joined: 11/29/2004
Msg: 108
view profile
History
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?
Posted: 2/9/2012 10:51:32 PM
Its a way to distract the mindless drones who think religion is in some way some how connected to morality, that way while they are talking about morality we wont see how destructive they have been the average American wallet's.
 .dej
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 109
view profile
History
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?
Posted: 2/10/2012 1:19:14 PM

Its a way to distract the mindless drones who think religion is in some way some how connected to morality

Morality and religion are absolutely connected. I don't know how you could think otherwise.

Perhaps what you meant to say is that they aren't mutually inclusive?
 part deux
Joined: 11/11/2008
Msg: 117
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?
Posted: 2/15/2012 5:54:22 PM
Martin Luther had a huge influence on western political thought. He posted his 96 Theiseis on the door of a church in Wurtenburg. His main objections to the church came after a visit to the Vatican, and were based on the excesses of pope Pius the Innocent. his main points were the vaticans extortion of the people through thithing, at the time the Vatican aked beleivers to give money to release the souls of their loved ones from purgatory, and ML felt that people could have a direct relationship with G-d, they did not need the church or a priest as a conduit. this idea, that the people could directly communicate with ' the source' of power without an intermediary, was revolutionary at the time, and changed forever in the west how we relate to power and authority.
 part deux
Joined: 11/11/2008
Msg: 118
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?
Posted: 2/15/2012 8:39:18 PM
No it is not the Protestant Church, it is the 96 Theseis. ML, never wanted to create a new church, he wanted to reform the Vatican. While his views may have influenced Protestanism, they were not Protestant views per se.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 120
view profile
History
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?
Posted: 2/26/2012 6:34:37 AM

.Personally IMHO religion should be left entirely out of politics but everyone knows that's not going to happen.
Nope ... not gonna happen anytime soon.
 Stray__Cat
Joined: 7/12/2006
Msg: 123
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?
Posted: 8/3/2012 3:59:53 PM
Because in America
If you can't convert...
you can always enforce.

It's a great irony that most "small Govt" conservatives
want a BIG socialist govt when it comes to religion.
To me it just shows their faith is weak.
 BlokeInSydney
Joined: 5/7/2012
Msg: 124
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?
Posted: 8/21/2012 8:43:00 PM
Not in this country it doesn't.
 Neopoli
Joined: 3/1/2011
Msg: 125
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?
Posted: 8/23/2012 2:15:18 PM

Catholic vote trending Republican

Washington D.C., Feb 26, 2012 / 01:16 pm


In a shift that could have consequences for the 2012 election, Catholic voters – especially non-Hispanic white Catholics – are more likely to identify as Republican or leaning Republican than they were in 2008.

A 2008 survey by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life found a significant Democratic advantage among Catholics. Fifty-three percent identified as Democratic or leaning Democratic voters, compared to 37 percent identifying with the Republican camp.

But Catholic respondents to the Pew Forum's 2011 survey were less likely to identify as Democrats or leaning Democratic. About 48 percent said they were Democrats or Democrat-leaning, while 43 percent said they were Republican or Republican-leaning – a six percentage point swing.

The change among non-Hispanic white Catholics was more pronounced at eight percentage points. In 2008, 41 percent were Republican or leaning Republican and 49 percent were Democratic or leaning Democratic. In 2011, 49 percent were identifying as Republican or leaning Republican, while only 42 percent stated a preference for the Democrats.

White Catholics who attend Mass weekly split party identification evenly in 2008, with 45 percent siding with each party. In 2011, 52 percent now identify as Republican or leaning Republican. Less frequent Mass goers were aligned with the Democratic Party at a rate of 54 percent in 2008, but now only 45 percent did so in the Pew Forum’s most recent survey. Forty-seven percent now side with Republicans.

Fifty-four percent of white Catholics under 30 now identify with the Republican Party, while only 49 percent of those age 30 and older do.

The survey shows losses for Democrats and gains for Republicans across all religious groups. The white Catholic shift of eight percentage points was exceeded only by a nine-point shift among Jews and a 12-point shift among Mormons.

The Pew Forum, which released the results on Feb. 2, claims a margin of error of plus or minus 2.5 percent for the Catholic and white Catholic respondents in 2011 and a plus or minus two percent margin of error for the same groups in 2008. Its survey was conducted at various points throughout 2011.

http://ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/US.php?id=4955#ixzz24PBK3v00


For example, when Republican Paul Ryan says "Im a Catholic deer hunter", who is he talking to???? I know far far more Democratic Catholic Deer Hunters than Republican Catholic Deer Hunters, & they arent identifying with today's Democratic party.

As old school/baby boomer traditional Kennedy Democratic Catholics fade away & die off, they are being replaced with younger Catholics who are turning Republican, due to the anti-religious hostility from today's Democrats, & its not just Catholics. Their hostility of today's Democratic party against organized religion unwittingly energizes & unites most of the religious bloc against them and in favor of the Republicans.


 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 126
view profile
History
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?
Posted: 8/23/2012 2:52:13 PM
^^^^
Actually, I'm not at all surprised that Catholics might be migrating (last election and this election) to the Republicans. They like their own kind, but have little or no tolerance for anyone who is of a different (anything browner) skin tone than theirs.

Catholics (as I'm familiar with them) are actually rather racist. They were some of the worst ones I know of during Nazi Germany ... and did an excellent job of delivering the Jews to the ovens in Germany. The hatred against the Jews (as well as Communists) back then became a regular subject from the pulpit at Mass.

I know this from my contacts with them when I lived in Germany. I lived in a Protestant town but also interacted with many people who talked of the "Nazi times" ... and they were quite clear that although at first, the Catholics were not necessarily on the side of the Nazis, they were quite comfortable getting rid of the Jews for them.
 Neopoli
Joined: 3/1/2011
Msg: 127
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?
Posted: 8/23/2012 5:11:13 PM
^^^^
Verified! This perfect example of blind bully blanket racist hostility of today's Democratic party faithful against organized religion unwittingly energizes & unites most of the religious bloc against them and in favor of the Republicans.
 Neopoli
Joined: 3/1/2011
Msg: 129
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?
Posted: 8/23/2012 8:00:42 PM
That makes 2 of us. We seem to be the only 2.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 130
view profile
History
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?
Posted: 8/23/2012 8:22:21 PM



Actually, I'm not at all surprised that Catholics might be migrating (last election and this election) to the Republicans. They like their own kind, but have little or no tolerance for anyone who is of a different (anything browner) skin tone than theirs.

Catholics (as I'm familiar with them) are actually rather racist. They were some of the worst ones I know of during Nazi Germany ... and did an excellent job of delivering the Jews to the ovens in Germany. The hatred against the Jews (as well as Communists) back then became a regular subject from the pulpit at Mass.
This perfect example of blind bully blanket racist hostility of today's Democratic party faithful against organized religion ...
And that remark is a perfect example of a reading impairment.

Please note ... I related my experiences, and that was clear in my post.

I also related what was told to me in Germany by people who lived it. Repeat ... by people who lived it. They not only lived it, but participated. They openly admitted it and also said they now regret it.

When I first heard of it (during the time I lived there) I was shocked. Anyone with a computer can find it on the Internet as well. I didn't need to look it up since I knew the people who told me about it. I knew them well.

If any Republicans or others find that insulting, then take it up with Nazi Germany and the Catholics of the time.

Personally, I have no idea why or how people put religion and politics together. The two are TWO very separate things. Religion should never be part of running our government in any way, shape, or form. That would totally defy the reason our country was formed and why the people came here way back then. They were seeking freedom from religion which they did not have in the country they left. They wanted freedom from having to participate in religions that were forced on them.

Who would want that back? Not me!

I don't like it when I go to meetings at work and we are forced to pray before the meeting begins . I have quit social clubs that find it necessary to pray before the actual social function begins. I'm purposely late to such functions so I won't be forced to pray with them.
 Neopoli
Joined: 3/1/2011
Msg: 131
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?
Posted: 8/24/2012 10:49:38 AM

I also related what was told to me in Germany by people who lived it. Repeat ... by people who lived it. They not only lived it, but participated. They openly admitted it and also said they now regret it.

When I first heard of it (during the time I lived there) I was shocked. Anyone with a computer can find it on the Internet as well. I didn't need to look it up since I knew the people who told me about it. I knew them well.

If any Republicans or others find that insulting, then take it up with Nazi Germany and the Catholics of the time.


Reading impairment noted, because the article I posted has nothing to do with Nazis, Germany, Jews, Communists, or Europe. It has everything to do with PRESENT DAY U.S. political identity of PRESENT DAY U.S Catholics & how it pertains to the 2 major PRESENT DAY U.S political parties.

The bigoted racist Nazi-glancing references to American Catholics in the above post is an ongoing example of behavior that reinforces the article that Democratic Catholics are being driven to the Republican side. If the party you belong to despises you, you will naturally seek refuge in the party that doesnt despise you. Who wins, & who loses???


But the Nazi's themselves werent pro catholic, many catholic priests were shot or sent to concentration camps.


Sounds like what PRESENT DAY adversarial liberals would do to their fellow moderate Democratic catholics.

Since we are keen on referencing Nazis, the PRESENT DAY Democratic Party is like Nazi Germany in this scenario, & U.S. Catholics are the German Jews, fleeing the party for safer refuge. The GOP is their Swiss border.
 Neopoli
Joined: 3/1/2011
Msg: 132
Why is Religion such an important factor in Politics?
Posted: 8/24/2012 11:19:41 AM
The article clearly states: Fifty-four percent of white Catholics under 30 now identify with the Republican Party, while only 49 percent of those age 30 and older do.

I would surmise the traditional old schoolers are staying put - its the up-and-coming ones who are seeing the hostile discriminatory climate & acting accordingly.

It also states: The survey shows losses for Democrats and gains for Republicans across all religious groups. The white Catholic shift of eight percentage points was exceeded only by a nine-point shift among Jews and a 12-point shift among Mormons.

This validates the racist adversarial liberal discriminatory hatred of fellow Democratic Catholics, Jews, & Mormons perfectly, & what the consequences of that racist hatred bring.
Show ALL Forums  > Politics  >