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Show ALL Forums  > UK forums  > Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!      Home login  
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 justdoitviv
Joined: 7/2/2008
Msg: 151
Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!Page 7 of 9    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)
i think its a positive move in the right direction, but should include a persons whole criminal record. i for one, would have chosen a partner long ago, and not remained single, if i had "knowledge" about a person whom i liked. i usually check divorce papers, and have come across 2 men whos divorce was due to child molestation. all single mothers are at risk, these men target single mothers. i would like to know if i am at risk of being battered. i could accidently be battered to death!!!!!!!!! as a matter of fact i cant see myself ever living with a man all the time my children are dependant on me. imagine a man who gets married and feels he is ready to start a family and settle, to hear later that his new wife actually battered/killed/ neglected her previous children?????? criminal records should be open to everyone for inspection, plus divorce papers.!!!!!!
 enty of woth
Joined: 3/19/2008
Msg: 152
Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!
Posted: 9/24/2008 1:04:57 PM
This thread is getting more and more like a script from the mind of Chris Morris!!

Cake. Just say NO! It destroys the part of the brain called 'Shatner's Bassoon'.........
 rev_guilliano
Joined: 4/17/2008
Msg: 153
Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!
Posted: 9/24/2008 1:44:36 PM
I can see a lot of 19 and 20 year old blokes who've been arrested for sleeping with the 14 year old (telling everyone she was 19)who's been drinking in their local for a year suddenly being unable to get into a relationship as their mistake gets exposed to all.

I can also see a lot of malicious jilted women whispering in the pub..... "see him over there? I did that check on him and he's a paedo!" when they haven't done it at all. All it takes is the wrong person to overhear and there's a murder in just about every town centre in the UK!
 redangel45
Joined: 7/9/2008
Msg: 154
Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!
Posted: 9/25/2008 1:32:31 AM
i think it wud be a great idea to implement sara s law to the extent they implemented megans law , as a mum of four , three live with me , id want to kno if there was a paedeophile living in my area, and i guess if they implemented a law where u cud check ona prospective fem partner then that wud be cool, but think the priority here is the law to protect children from abusers and any thing that helps that shud be encouraged
 AlmaM
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 155
Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!
Posted: 9/25/2008 6:49:40 AM

I can see a lot of 19 and 20 year old blokes who've been arrested for sleeping with the 14 year old (telling everyone she was 19)

14 can not look like 19, no way..

I think there is 5 year difference mentioned by law.. so someone who is 19 and sleeping with 14 year old is treated different by the law to someone who is 23 or older and sleeping with 14 year old.

And also I think 16 year old is the age when the girls are accepted as mature enough for sex.


What's not to disagree with?
It high-lights an important point that the checks will only reveal convicted paedophiles. It can't tell you a person is safe to be round your children, only that they haven't been previously caught AND tried AND convicted. It won't tell you about someone who has been repeatedly charged but never convicted even.
One could say it could lead to a false sense of security.


I think it wouldn't give a false sense of security as the person who is applying for the info has his/her reasons to apply for this.
And this law is designed to stop convicts to come close to kids, it is not for first time offenders or those who haven't been caught.

Also one more thing: if a 25 year old has been caught fiddling around 14 year old girls and he has been trying to do it again this person obviously has a problem and the society needs to know about him.





 AlmaM
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 156
Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!
Posted: 9/25/2008 8:15:49 AM
The false sense of security comes from Ms Singlemum checking to find out whether new boyfriend Joe Bloggs is a paedo; "No" say the police "he has no convictions."
"That's ok then" says Ms Singlemum "it's put my mind at rest."

Only to find 6 months down the line that Joe Bloggs has interfered with her kids.
Can you see the flaw in the law yet?

If Ms Singlemum gives the Police an indication of why she wants the check, what will happen there?
It concerns me on many levels. The hype surrounding the issue could likely lead to lots of men losing their 'lives' and only a very few new paedos being brought into the judicial spotlight.


It is all in interpretation.
This law is not there to catch ANY peadophile but to catch those who previously offended and will try again.
It is called Sarah's Law because one of these convicted people killed little Sarah.
The law is there to stop the convicts to come close to children, no ANYONE with peadophilic tendencies to come close to children.
I am sure the police when asked for info would talk to the person who requested the info and explain this.
They can not give the info of people they do not have record of but they can give the info about the dangerous people they know about.
So I do not agree with you that Ms Singlemum would stop there, not every single mum would know or ask for this info but the one who has concerns.
That means she has noticed something which might indicate this person is already in the police file.

I have listened to ceop guy who said that people in most cases get into peadophilia gradually, first they watch the child porn, then they download it, then they reproduce/share it..and after this they actually get to the point to actually abusing a child. By this time they are in most cases known to the police.. for downloading etc..

So if a single mum has concerns she might be told the person has been downloading child porn which of course shows he has interest in children.

The other thing are so called peadophile rings.

For a peadophile it is very hard to become a member of one of these rings which unables them to talk to people with similar tendencies and share material, ie videos and photos of abused children.

The newest what police has discovered is that to become a member of this ring a peado needs to submit some material.

If s/he has no access to children, s/he can not provide this material to the ring and therefore s/he can not become a member.

One of the ways of obtaining the material is befriending a lone parent. I suspect this is becoming quite common.

Also there are other criminals who sell these videos of abused kids. Some of the videos are very expensive and therefore a ground for all sorts of criminals to try selling it.

So there are different reasons someone would like to befriend a single parent and therefore this law has its place in modern society.

I remember reading about the police finding an abused child through the video they watched and recognized the geographical patterns on the video.

Hard work for the police but if only one child is saved from hands of these monsters, be it a relative or a stranger laws like this serve its purpose.
 krustyone
Joined: 11/24/2007
Msg: 157
Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!
Posted: 9/25/2008 10:33:05 AM
Have read this thread with interest over the last few days and I am very much on the side of this will not work. It will give parents a false sense of security when checking out someone who may be having contact with their children.

Innocent men/women will be harrassed and persecuted due to the vindictive nature and vigilante attitude of some also. Some parents will maybe become slack about who they allow contact with their children due to having 'checked' someone out.


So I do not agree with you that Ms Singlemum would stop there, not every single mum would know or ask for this info but the one who has concerns.
That means she has noticed something which might indicate this person is already in the police file.


Personally I think any parent who has to call this line and check the safety of someone must be having some doubts about the person they are checking on and anyone with an ounce of intelligence should stop that person having contact with their child if they were having doubts in the first place regardless of what the line could tell them.

Will the safety and protection of one innocent child be worth all of this? Hmm difficult question. Are the lives of the innocent adults worth less than those of the innocent children?
 AlmaM
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 158
Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!
Posted: 9/25/2008 12:40:37 PM

Are the lives of the innocent adults worth less than those of the innocent children?


Adults can protect themselves and children need protection.

If adults are not guilty then it is only a rumor which is nothing compared to a child being physically ( and emotionally ) hurt and maybe even killed.

Mistaken identity ?

How would this happen if a particular single parent is seeking info about a particular person?

Only by police's mistake and this mistakes might not happen.

And if there is a rumor in the pub down the road it might as well be truth !

Remember the case of Joseph Fritzl in Austria.

His daughter Elizabeth told her friend her father was abusing her, the friend told another friend, the rumor went around but since Mr Fritzl behaved like 'a good guy' and was presenting his daughter as a 'bad girl' nobody actually believed in this rumor !

There is an old saying ' What people talk about either happened or would happen!'

So if a married guy with kids and business actually tried to abuse a child IMO he deserves to loose his home, his family and his freedom as this is a crime as any other crime !

So rather than hiding it under the carpet this things should be made widely known.

These things have been happening through the centuries but the society has adapted into hiding it, denying it and sacrificing the child .. it is about the time for it to stop !
 Macforty
Joined: 5/15/2008
Msg: 159
Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!
Posted: 9/25/2008 1:11:46 PM

There is an old saying ' What people talk about either happened or would happen!'

In this country we have another saying ' The devil makes work for idle hands' !!

It really is pointless addressing the rest of the post as its been exasperating trying to convey in any more simpler terms .
 krustyone
Joined: 11/24/2007
Msg: 160
Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!
Posted: 9/25/2008 1:25:05 PM
So if a married guy with kids and business actually tried to abuse a child IMO he deserves to loose his home, his family and his freedom as this is a crime as any other crime !

So rather than hiding it under the carpet this things should be made widely known.

These things have been happening through the centuries but the society has adapted into hiding it, denying it and sacrificing the child .. it is about the time for it to stop !


Who has denied this? Sarahs Law will not help with this in anyway. You yourself said it is not there to find paedophiles but to make people aware of ones who are already convicted! I am not disputing that some people may be made aware of someone who they have in their life who has been convicted BUT you surely have to see that like Megans Law this is truely flawed. It is not the answer to keeping our children safe. Far better to educate your children from a young age making them aware of the dangers from not only strangers and making sure that your lines of communication with your children are always intact.
 AlmaM
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 161
Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!
Posted: 9/25/2008 1:28:10 PM
In this country we have another saying ' The devil makes work for idle hands' !!

It really is pointless addressing the rest of the post as its been exasperating trying to convey in any more simpler terms .


Well.. if there is a possibility that implementation of this law would see innocent people being accused of being child molesters there is also a possibility that they are child molesters !

We are talking about what could happen as a result of a public seeking info about a certain person.

So if people are whispering ..they might as well have a reason for it.. not every whisper is untruthful!

Or as an opposite to Sarah's Law let's imagine you have been married to a person for 5 years for example and you have two children and you do not know this person was convicted child abuser.. and this could happen to anyone even me and you and prior to Sarah's Law you would not even have a chance to find out !

What would you do if you find out after 5 years? Sleep quite well?
 AitchEm
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 162
Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!
Posted: 9/25/2008 2:35:39 PM

Well.. if there is a possibility that implementation of this law would see innocent people being accused of being child molesters there is also a possibility that they are child molesters !

We are talking about what could happen as a result of a public seeking info about a certain person.


True.


So if people are whispering ..they might as well have a reason for it.. not every whisper is untruthful!


Also true but then so is the opposite.


Or as an opposite to Sarah's Law let's imagine you have been married to a person for 5 years for example and you have two children and you do not know this person was convicted child abuser.. and this could happen to anyone even me and you and prior to Sarah's Law you would not even have a chance to find out !


I'm sure this has happened more than once since it is often the case that the abuser is a family member or someone close/known to the family as has been highlighted many times in this thread.



What would you do if you find out after 5 years? Sleep quite well?


I doubt anyone finding themselves in that situation would sleep well but your arguments are flimsy & hypothetical (and, in my opinion, actually quite difficult to fathom at times!). Sarah's Law IS flawed and open to abuse & as such should not be implemented as it stands. Major amendments are necessary to safeguard ALL concerned.
 Keefys
Joined: 6/12/2008
Msg: 163
Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!
Posted: 9/25/2008 3:16:10 PM

Well.. if there is a possibility that implementation of this law would see innocent people being accused of being child molesters there is also a possibility that they are child molesters !
That one statement says a massive amount about the mentality of some of the people supporting this law, they are so far beyond all reasoned debate. Please poster, get off the dating sites, you are not safe, your paranoia is such that you are a danger to anybody around you.
 AlmaM
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 164
Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!
Posted: 9/25/2008 3:42:49 PM

Please poster, get off the dating sites, you are not safe, your paranoia is such that you are a danger to anybody around you.


I beg your pardon?

I should leave the dating site because I think different than you or I might be more informed on the subject than you?

On the end of the day it is not me who decides if a law is going to pass or not.. if there was a no general need for it or a statistics show of a common pattern which endangered children this law would not pass !

If you ask me I'd rather have no Sarah's Law but would leave the convicted people in prison for 7 or 17 years instead of 7 months they serve now.. then our streets would not be full of 30 000 registered child offenders with an opportunity to come close to my or any child !

And there would be no need for Sarah's Law ..

While there is so mild sentencing of this kind of crime there must be some kind of control on the streets monitoring those people.
 aquaplane
Joined: 9/22/2006
Msg: 165
view profile
History
Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!
Posted: 9/25/2008 4:20:08 PM
It's all bollocks, just use reasonable prudence and you will be OK.

There is no bogey man.
Use yer fecking common sense.

Fer gawds sake, what's the fecking chances? Do you buy a lottery ticket? You are more likely to win so stop buying a ticket if you are that gullible.
 pmb00cs
Joined: 11/2/2007
Msg: 166
Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!
Posted: 9/25/2008 5:51:16 PM

Well.. if there is a possibility that implementation of this law would see innocent people being accused of being child molesters there is also a possibility that they are child molesters !

So if people are whispering ..they might as well have a reason for it.. not every whisper is untruthful!
And you see this is exactly why this law is so dangerous! People actually believe the "no smoke without fire" sort of claptrap you are talking about here. As soon as someone is accused and this law used as "evidence" truthfully or not they will be condemned.
if there was a no general need for it or a statistics show of a common pattern which endangered children this law would not pass !
This law was passed because of the lobbying of a small group of very vocal people who, like you, don't give a **** about treading all over the rights of others. They used the case of Sarah Payne to push their own twisted agenda. This law has nothing to do with proper legal process, statistics, or protecting children, and everything to do with manipulating the populace. Just because they use the lines "but think of the children" and "if you have nothing to hide ...." doesn't mean they believe it, or they give a rat's arse about you, me, or the children.

But lets look at some statistics shall we? You claim 30,000 registered child offenders (I shall assume you mean child sex offenders) in the UK I don't know where you get that from, and I can't be bothered to look it up myself. So lets assume it is accurate. Now lets assume they are all male (they aren't, but I can't be arsed to look up the relative numbers of male and female child sex offenders). Now the UK has a population of around 61,000,000. If we assume a 50%-50% split of male-female that gives us 30,500,000 men. Giving us less than 1 in 1000 sex offenders. So for every 1000 men you date less than one of them is a child sex offender. And that is assuming a perfectly even distribution of sex offenders amoungst the population. I can't tell you how much that maths there over predicts your chances of encountering a child sex offender, but I can be certain that it does. Get some ****ing perspective!
 Miss Grundy
Joined: 4/5/2008
Msg: 167
Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!
Posted: 9/25/2008 7:50:41 PM
Stastics..stastics....

how about the stastics that say that 3 out of every 5 women will experience some kind of abuse..sexual abuse...mental abuse throughout their lives...oh and it might have something to do with them being somewhat vulnerable due to being the 'weaker sex'...


Get real....do you honestly believe that women can't relate to how vulnerable. in turn. their own children are...?

If you can't imagine what it is like to be a parent and empathise with the difficulties we have to face you shouldn't comment...it's bloody outrageous that people who are single and don't have children to protect and encourage to achieve their potential exclaim horror at being made to feel guilty for being free and single..

Get off the stage...

Why on earth ..in this day and age..the age of information at our fingertips should anybody trust completes strangers or even closer more intimate friends with our children....

It's hard work being a parent when your ultimate thoughts are all about ensuring your child has an easy passage in life and all of your energy is spent educating and informing them..and also coming to the conclusion that this world should be made a safer place for all...because we are all some mothers child and our potential grandchildren are going to inherit the legacy we leave behind.

bloody hell..it's not such a hard concept to grasp surely ?
 ava111
Joined: 9/11/2008
Msg: 168
Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!
Posted: 9/25/2008 7:59:15 PM
as i understand it i may be wrong potential partners can ask for a check with the stipulation it will be confidential !!!!! im sorry if i found out something about the man i would tell the world not to be malicious but to warn prospective partners i do belive we all have a second chance but not with chideren
 ava111
Joined: 9/11/2008
Msg: 169
Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!
Posted: 9/25/2008 8:03:04 PM
are u saying u dont trust anyone if u are ur life is sad don texuse it because u have kids we all have instincts u cant live ur life with kids thinin everyone u meet is a potential abuser
 Miss Grundy
Joined: 4/5/2008
Msg: 170
Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!
Posted: 9/25/2008 8:11:51 PM
...everybody you meet has some kind of potential..good or bad..you want to experiment with your children - go for it !!

As an aside..

I have two sons..and four brothers and a father..so it goes without saying I'm not a man hater but a very funny ..strange thing happened a couple of years ago..

My eldest boy...who has the best sort of laid back/relaxed personality was being pursued by a wee girl who was a couple of years younger than him...she was always calling to our house and fawning all over him - telling him how much she liked him ..he was oblivious and just carried on being friendly..but my next door neighbour pointed out that..it could so easily happen that suspicions could arise about the 'relationship' they both (which was totally innocent and took place right outside my back door) had...she figured that my lad could easily become victim to any personal problems the girl had and be a figure of blame...all very complex but it made sense at the time for me to protect my son and discourage the little one from calling to my house so frequently - given that she was declaring her love and adoration for my boy every time.

I know it' crap but you've got to teach your sons how to protect themselves against being accused of something they'd never dream of doing and you have to protect your daughters and at the same time you have to teach them to be accepting.
 ava111
Joined: 9/11/2008
Msg: 171
i happened to me
Posted: 9/25/2008 8:13:26 PM
the easiest way to get an man out of ur life is to accuse him a horrendous crime nowadays the mention of it is enought for any man to be taken awsy from there kids i my day it was much harder anyay i ve hurt myself falling off my high horse
 pmb00cs
Joined: 11/2/2007
Msg: 172
Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!
Posted: 9/25/2008 10:56:51 PM

Stastics..stastics....

how about the stastics that say that 3 out of every 5 women will experience some kind of abuse..sexual abuse...mental abuse throughout their lives...oh and it might have something to do with them being somewhat vulnerable due to being the 'weaker sex'...
My point about statistics is they are only as reliable as the source. A skilled statistician can manipulate a set of statistics to show just about any interpretation he sees fit.
If you can't imagine what it is like to be a parent and empathise with the difficulties we have to face you shouldn't comment...it's bloody outrageous that people who are single and don't have children to protect and encourage to achieve their potential exclaim horror at being made to feel guilty for being free and single..
Yes I'm single, yes I have no children of my own. So that means I have no right to enter into a debate on a subject that does effect me? Should this law get implemented nation-wide I shall be one of the people getting "checked out" (I have no aversion to seeing single mothers, my last serious girlfriend was a single mother). Trust me when I say I have first hand experience of the damage an over protective parent can do to their child. Damage that will last well into adulthood.
Why on earth ..in this day and age..the age of information at our fingertips should anybody trust completes strangers or even closer more intimate friends with our children....
Why would anyone have ever trusted a complete stranger? In this or any other age? I'm not suggesting you trust a complete stranger, but that you get to know someone and trust your own judgement. Trust those that you have come to know and trust.
 Variola
Joined: 6/27/2008
Msg: 173
Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!
Posted: 9/26/2008 12:24:54 AM

It's hard work being a parent when your ultimate thoughts are all about ensuring your child has an easy passage in life and all of your energy is spent educating and informing them..and also coming to the conclusion that this world should be made a safer place for all...because we are all some mothers child and our potential grandchildren are going to inherit the legacy we leave behind.


Indeed and thats why they need protecting from stupid knee-jerk ill thought-out laws that will actually leave them more vunerable to abuse than protect them.
 AlmaM
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 174
Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!
Posted: 9/26/2008 1:59:47 AM
30 000 figure is from BBC News..

We are talking about very manipulative individuals who when in prison are the best behaved prisoners, most of them to re-offend as soon as they come out.Not to mention their methods they use.

30 000 is a figure of people who were caught and jailed.

1 in 1000 is nothing but if you think about the damage to the society one of them can cause.. how many kids in one town would be affected or the increase of this kind of the crime as there are also criminals who are not the actual abusers but do make money in child porn in terms of photographing, filming, reproducing and selling the material.

Here is an example of one of these individuals showing how the system with them works and how they commonly behave:


Paedophile jailed over child porn

Jun 18 2008 by Chloe Griffiths, Liverpool Daily Post
Convicted Wirral paedophile Mark Thompson

Convicted Wirral paedophile Mark Thompson _320

A SERIAL paedophile has been put behind bars indefinitely for downloading child porn at work.

Mark Thompson, 55, was jailed for 12 years in 1999 for a string of sex attacks on young girls and boys over 20 years.

The former accountant was released in 2005 after serving half his sentence and managed to get a job in Birkenhead.

But Liverpool Crown Court heard that within weeks he was using his employer’s computers to download scores of obscene images of children.

He later claimed he had been looking at the indecent pictures, many of very young boys, as a “coping strategy”.

But Judge John Roberts yesterday ruled Thompson, from Moreton, was still a danger and imposed an indefinite sentence for public protection.

Thompson will serve a minimum of three months before being considered for parole, but was warned he may never be released.

Judge Roberts said: “Whether you will ever be let out and, if so, when that will be, is a matter for the parole board. You will never be released unless the parole board decide you are no longer a risk to young boys.”

Mike Stephenson, prosecuting, told the court that in November 2006 Thompson was warned by his bosses at JFM Plant Hire about his use of the computer.

A month later a female colleague discovered files of obscene images on the machine while Thompson was at a doctor’s appointment.

Thompson was suspended and later admitted seven offences of making indecent pseudo images and a further charge of possessing 103 indecent images.

Nicholas Ryan, defending, said Thompson was looking at the images to try and “confront his demons”.

Thompson has a long record of sex attacks dating back 30 years and has served at least three prison sentences.

He was jailed in 1999 after targeting the children of single parents, befriending them and buying them gifts.

He abused 13 children, aged between five and 14, luring some to New Brighton’s Fort Perch Road.

Thompson made video recordings of some of his attacks.

Judge Roberts said: “After careful consideration I have concluded the sole reason for your actions was your continuing strong attraction to young males, an attraction which carries with it a real danger to young boys.”

In April, Thompson was banned from owning cameras and computers as part of a sex offenders’ prevention order imposed at Wirral Magistrates Court.

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-news/regional-news/2008/06/18/paedophile-jailed-over-child-porn-64375-21092709/


And if you actually work in probation service I guess you are under pressure to release more and more prisoners as the jails are packed, you thinking who to let out and the pedophiles are the best behaved so here you go.. next week he is caught with the camera on his neck filming the kids around.. not to mention some of these people are actual child killers.. has anyone seen Panorama on 'probation service hostels' ?

This is why I think the law like this is needed to control the dangerous people like this once they are back on the street !
 AlmaM
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 175
Sarah's Law Gives Mothers Right To Make 'Sex Checks' !!
Posted: 9/26/2008 2:32:53 AM

Why on earth ..in this day and age..the age of information at our fingertips should anybody trust completes strangers or even closer more intimate friends with our children....


I remember one situation when I came out of work earlier one day and met my childminder on the street and she was without my son.

So I asked her where my son was... and she said 'oh, do not worry he is sleeping at home.. my husband is with him'

And she was a registered child minder !

When I went to collect my baby her husband opened the door wearing only a towel he handed me my baby ..now this guy was not British but from another continent and even I still think they are a very nice family how could I possibly know what kind of society this person grew up in and whether he had any convictions so you blindly trust, you have to .. as you have to go to work and you have to leave your child with these people.. there are situations like this when you simply have no other choice but to hand your baby to a stranger and go to work !
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