Notice: Forums will be shutdown by June 2019

To focus on better serving our members, we've decided to shut down the POF forums.

While regular posting is now disabled, you can continue to view all threads until the end of June 2019. Event Hosts can still create and promote events while we work on a new and improved event creation service for you.

Thank you!

Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Plentyoffish Site/Suggestions/Help  >      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 SwampHunter
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 39
Changes to Forums.Page 5 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)

OK, I'll add an "I (heart) McCain" hand held sign to mine, if McCain wins. It may have to be handmade, but hey.....good sportsmanship isn't limited to the left or right.




Okay - that works!

Mark
The Uppity Conservative
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 40
Changes to Forums.
Posted: 9/17/2008 11:17:02 AM
I was kind of hoping argument would be made here to change Markus' mind. Unfortunately some here are continuing the arguments that lead to closing them.

I know this decision wasn't made lightly or overnight. I'm sorry they were closed.
 bliss serendipity
Joined: 12/27/2006
Msg: 41
view profile
History
Changes to Forums.
Posted: 9/17/2008 11:23:21 AM
"I guess I will spend less time here.
To all my friends and foes in the Political Forum....THANKS."

You have no idea how much I have enjoyed this forum. I learned much about Americans and Canadians and others, which certainly broadened my mind. I am not able to read books/magazines for very long because of eye/vision problems and this forum allowed me to be on top of what was happening in current world events and viewpoints.

I hope Marcus you change your mind about closing this forum. Even though I rarely posted, I did spend many hours reading and learning what debating was all about. It wouldn't have been long (I think) before I would have been posting often.

I have looked at the other folders and just do not find much that I can really say would hold my interest for long.

Bliss
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 42
Changes to Forums.
Posted: 9/17/2008 11:29:15 AM

Curious, were the mods in favour of this or have a say?


No, they do not. This is the Admin's site. Murphy's Golden Rule.



Yes but "following the rules" is subject to interpretation, and therein lies the rub. If we were to compile a list of the number of liberals who have been banned vs. the number of conservatives who have been banned, I think it would tell quite a tale...
...
As far as getting more moderators goes - who picks them? Who makes sure they aren't surrepticiously supporting thier own political agenda based on who they discipline and for what? Who makes sure they are enforcing the rules and not their own opinion?


If the Admin chooses to say more about that process I will let him. I will say that as a former moderator , IF there are complaints about your procedural processes and those complaints can be found to have merit, the Admin will remove you. I will state that while I am sure there were many complaints regarding my fair application of the rules - likely from those I ruled against - that an equal number of times I was called fair by those I would have had violent disagreement with in an open debate were I permitted that; but, moderators are chosen SPECIFICALLY because they can arbitrate beyond their personal feelings on the issues...if they cannot, they will not last (My "former" status being related to an issue of shall we say a lack of...uhm...restraint in language while dealing with some rather more persistent complainants... oh well mea cowboy, mea cowboy, mea mexicana cowboy ) .

And I will also point out that these implications of lack of moderator impartiality are a good way to get this thread - which I might add are a courtesy of the Admin to see what the prevailing opinions are of this forum adjustment - shut down, thus closing the door on your last chance to have your opinion heard. You may want to ratchet it down a tad.

 SwampHunter
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 43
Changes to Forums.
Posted: 9/17/2008 11:35:19 AM
some of us love hotbeds. if you think politics is a hotbed here, try going anywhere where these issues are discussed and tell me if it's any different.

unless all inciters are summarily banned, it's just a matter of time before you run into another one on some other forum. as i said before, there are already rules against ad hominem attacks. and just because somebody tosses one out there at you, this does not in any way compel you to respond. it takes two to tango ;)


See this is the problem. I doubt ANYONE can EVER take the passion out of politics. There is a REASON you have to be 18 to vote. it's an adult game!

As many of you know, I am a political consultant. I spent the past EIGHT years of my life fighting a 20 million dollar first amendment battle over free speech all the way to the US Supreme Court and back (Bennet & Reid V. Hendricks et. al). The whole thing was over a nasty political campaign I was involved in way back in 2000, and one of the parties thought they'd been mischaracterized. It all ended when a federal court judge ruled with me - on the law I was taught in college - that our first amendment right to speak freely outweighs a public figure's right to sue because they didn't like what was said about them - no matter HOW ugly what was said may have been - as long as it is true.

In that opinion, Judge Thrash went back and did HIS OWN research, and totally ignored the briefs on both sides of the issue. He went back and started talking about nasty campaigns from Thomas Jefferson's days. His opinion now stands as case law.

After that experience, I've come to the conclusion that it would be almost impossible to fairly arbitrate limited political discourse in a forum such as we had here. One side or the other would always have the advantage. Personally, I can easily see why it is difficult for people on BOTH sides to keep to the rules here on POF. They are not the same rules for politcal speach that exist in the rest of society. If we're in a coffee shop talking politics, there essentially ARE no rules...

Mark
The Uppity Conservative


P.S. Mad Fiddler - I know you did your best - and you took your job very seriously and did your best to be fair - and I still say kudos to you for all your hard work and time spent... My earlier comments were not about you my friend. Only about my concerns should the political forums be reopened and some unknown quantity chosen to moderate. Best wishes...
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 44
Changes to Forums.
Posted: 9/17/2008 11:49:42 AM


See this is the problem. I doubt ANYONE can EVER take the passion out of politics. There is a REASON you have to be 18 to vote. it's an adult game!
...
After that experience, I've come to the conclusion that it would be almost impossible to fairly arbitrate limited political discourse. One side or the other would always have the advantage. Personally, I can easily see why it is difficult for people on BOTH sides to keep to the rules here on POF.


The Political Forums, as such could not and should not be moderated by any one person, and would require multiple moderators with multiple points of view - ideally. The logistics would also require more man hours and money which the Admin is willing to commit which for the moment seems to be none. Same with Religion and Current Affairs.

I never denied that I missed a lot of infractions on both sides of the fence. I read what posts I could, caught the ones that were reported. Contrary to some of the complaints I see posted, if you read the rules, no one is entitled to a warning at all and the rest of the complaints about seeming arbitrary moderation are addressed in the FAQ . I just want to make this clear for everyone reading from an inside perspective in case anyone is misunderstanding this and thinks there is malice afoot.

And thanks for the kind words to you all...

I edited my "shoot from the lip" response out of the last post...

But see, that's what got me in trouble in the first place So obviously I need to cool down for a bit.
 SwampHunter
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 45
Changes to Forums.
Posted: 9/17/2008 11:58:51 AM
I never denied that I missed a lot of infractions on both sides of the fence. I read what posts I could, caught the ones that were reported.


Fiddler - if there are 10 times as many liberals in the forums as conservatives, would it not stand to reason that you would have gotten 10 times as many compaints about conservatives as you did about liberals? Could that explain these perceptions?

I'm curious - what is YOUR opinion about all this? What do YOU think is at the root of the problem? Did you get overwhelmed?
 Ezzee
Joined: 7/26/2004
Msg: 47
Changes to Forums.
Posted: 9/17/2008 12:13:49 PM
I must admit I am thuroughly disappointed to see the removal of the Current Events and Politics forum. There were many good conversation in there, and while I may thuroughly disagree with a lot of the posters, I respect their right to state there opinion. I would love to see these forums come back up. I don't know how much time I'll spend here without those being up.

Fiddler, always loved your remarks and your attempts to try to moderate the forums. While they may have been unsuccessful at times, you are well respected by many of the posters.
 Thatguy67
Joined: 9/20/2006
Msg: 48
view profile
History
Changes to Forums.
Posted: 9/17/2008 12:14:02 PM
Thanks TMF. For trying to keep the forums on an even keel in the sea of threads.
 flawedbutfun
Joined: 6/19/2007
Msg: 49
Changes to Forums.
Posted: 9/17/2008 12:17:36 PM
This is sad news. Politics forum was a great forum to see what others across the county and around the globe thought about the 2008 election. Yeah, sure, there were unsubstantiated claims, passionate posts pro and con, outrageous remarks, but by and large there was intelligent discussions on topics. Heck you can find the some very outrageous remarks and unsubstantiated claims in some profiles!!! That doesn't make it a bad thing.

Please reconsider it's deletion. Without these forums it lessens the value of POF by quite a bit.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 50
Changes to Forums.
Posted: 9/17/2008 12:20:10 PM


Fiddler - if there are 10 times as many liberals in the forums as conservatives, would it not stand to reason that you would have gotten 10 times as many compaints about conservatives as you did about liberals? Could that explain these perceptions?

I'm curious - what is YOUR opinion about all this? What do YOU think is at the root of the problem? Did you get overwhelmed?


Actually this is something I would rather take to email at this point if I were to continue it because I don't know how productive it would be to discuss it in this thread and may only serve to produce more negative feelings on both sides. I think that ratio is exaggerated by a rather large bit although I would say the liberal to moderate posters tended to outnumber the more conservative poster in the forums removed...as usual though they were a microcosm of reality...most people tended to fall into the moderate camp and there were a core group at the fringes of each side that were much more vocal...and the liberal side slightly outnumbered the conservative.

It was also my experience - take it for what you will - sadly, that people from either side that could develop cogent arguments without resorting to logical fallacy, name-calling and flame-baiting of one type or another were very few in number.

People that tended to begin arguments with "typical (insert ideology) thinking" were starting to get as thick as fleas on a hound... and unless that thinking refers to certain types of common knowledge regarding that type of thought - socioeconomic policy with a long history of practice - then we know we are headed for the sewer. Both sides did this frequently.

So, yes. I was overwhelmed and so was everyone else...and frustrated. There were days I actually felt "stupider" after glancing at the forums.

As I was often told by another moderator, "late", I don't think the problem is the people, or the politics, I think the problem is that generally people don't know how to construct a good argument and don't understand the art of the dialectic. Those posters that are really good at it, I could count on two hands, frankly, and it's trickle down from there. Occasional rules violators or people who got temporary suspensions just slipped...anyone can do that. I did once before I became a mod - shoot from the lip...just like I did a couple posts up before I edited it.

Chronic violators and people that end up getting perma-banned just don't get it. Conservative, liberal or kook, they just want to say what they want with impunity and don't know how to interact and discuss in polite society with others...it's their way or the highway. Those are the people that are the problem...they also are probably the most vocal complainants to the Admin about their "free speech" being infringed upon, and likely at least partly at the root of the forums being shut down. Not the kind of folks you'd invite over to dinner because you'd spend the night not knowing if you'd want to pass the gravy boat to them or heat it up and throw it in their face.

So no, I didn't get THAT disproportionate a level of complaints. That would really be stretching it. I think what I have described about covers it...anything else, please email me.
 SwampHunter
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 51
Changes to Forums.
Posted: 9/17/2008 12:23:10 PM
Thanks for the insight Peter - again - thanks for all your hard work, and the many, many long and often frustrating hours you put into it my friend...

Mark
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 52
view profile
History
Changes to Forums.
Posted: 9/17/2008 12:38:51 PM
There are after all, other web sites which handle political forums. In fact there are others which are dedicated to politics and current events.

Frankly, the whole thing doesn't make much sense to me.

But then, I'm reminded of a line from the Bhagavadgita, " Who are ye to judge God " ?
 Ferruginous
Joined: 5/12/2008
Msg: 53
Changes to Forums.
Posted: 9/17/2008 12:41:56 PM
I still haven't seen a reason that would convince me they needed to be removed
less than 200 people who post in those 3 forums
If that's the case, are those forums really taking up that many resources on this site?
Glancing at many smaller state and provincial forums, I see that there is a significant number of them that have less than 20 regular posters. Shouldn't they be removed too?


are not dating related
Neither are the Single Parent, Health, Science, Travel, Sports, and Art/music forums


hotbed for trolls
The "Ask A ..." forums are also a hotbed. Apparently they will remain.


Certainly didn't seem to be helping anyone find a date.
I don't know about that.
Isn't it possible that 2 people who both have a passion for discussing current events, or who have similar political opinions, or who enjoy discussing religion, may notice each other through those forums?


Clearly the forums should not be used to broadcast oneself, which is obviously not what I was stating. That being said, no where will you find a moderator saying that the forums should not be helpful to helping aid others in dating. By this I mean, I feel the forums should help with dating advice and related questions.
I now realise what you were saying.
I can see the usefullness of having forums which allow people ton seek dating advice.
But can there not also be a place where those who have little, or no, interest in dating advice, can have logical discussions on other topics?

Deleting general discussions forums, while allowing the forums that are a haven for chat and nonsense posts to stay, contradicts everything that the mods have always been stating about what these forums are meant to be.



Local forums are supposed to be about local events.
I don't go to local events.
Since you're happy to see forums, which you had no interest in, dissappearring because they're a waste of moderator resources, would you agree with me that the local event forums, which I have no interest in, should be removed?
Since I have no interest in singles gathers, I consider it a waste of moderator resources to provide space for these event threads which must be monitored to weed out spammers trying to promote their own bars, people advertising charity evernts, people promoting their own band, people advertising events hosted by other groups etc.
By comparision, to me, it seems like the local events are a bigger waste of mod resources, than a small handful of people wanting to discuss news and current events.


Who can fault the owner for not wanting to pay for bandwith space for just a bunch of arguements, fights and b.s.
What about the bandwith space that he's gladlly providing to allow thousands of people to keep re-asking the same generic dating advice questions?
 feeltobefree
Joined: 10/6/2006
Msg: 54
Changes to Forums.
Posted: 9/17/2008 12:53:53 PM
In retrospect, does anyone know of another place where discussion of politics, world issues, and current events is welcomed?
 Simlasa
Joined: 10/30/2004
Msg: 55
view profile
History
Changes to Forums.
Posted: 9/17/2008 12:54:57 PM

Isn't it possible that 2 people who both have a passion for discussing current events, or who have similar political opinions, or who enjoy discussing religion, may notice each other through those forums?

Agreed, heated discussion is great foreplay...
Most of the profiles people put on her don't really tell you jack squat about who they are... how many permutations of 'I want a man who doesn't play games and who is a gentleman' can you read before your eyes glaze over?
Any interest I've developed in women on this site has been strongly based on the quality of their forum posts... on seeing how their minds work and how they handle language.


In retrospect, does anyone know of another place where discussion of politics, world issues, and current events is welcomed?

I'd be interested in hearing about such places too.
 Ticketoride
Joined: 6/3/2004
Msg: 56
Changes to Forums.
Posted: 9/19/2008 12:33:27 PM
I predict a huge increase in the popularity of off topic.

No Rule you can't make Politics related Threads in the Off-Topic Forum Category providing its not being overrun by these Topics, as that is the Forum it now goes into. Removal of these Categories merely prevent Promotion of them.

I get the impression that it's a combination of staffing, and a desire to increase the site's user-base to increase revenue.

The Intent to automate everything.

In the name of profit, moderator resources are now spent babysitting mindless chatters, rather than moderating legitimate discussion topics.

Moderaters had been assigned to those Forums but resulted in little Change.
Abuse it, you lose it. And those who see trolling going on and don't report also become their Victims of their own Inaction.

I recall a comment by a mod in another thread that the greater number of forum users are readers.

All the Slag Matches, Elbow Action & Agenda Trolls made them nearly impossible to follow, esp. when many Posts would go on for well over 5,000 Characters citing this Link and that Link.

But in short, additional Moderation or Adminstrative Action could have dealt with the Abusers and left readable worthwhile Forums.

Garbage forums like Single Parents, Over 45, Ask A girl, etc. Yet those forums remain.

Yup ... if these Junk Forums would have been toasted instead there would have been much more Time available to look after the Current Events/News, Politics and Religion Forums. But that would not have been enough. Extremely heavy Buckle Downs on many extand Posters would also had to follow. Some of the most intelligent People we had on Site could be found in these. In the End it all comes down to making Things work.

Would it be possible to create a way for people to read a post, and then instantly be able to register a complaint (similar to the delete thread "vote" ) - by USER.

It already exists, but hasn't been attended to by Moderators for well over 2 Years. In Order to make it work, a full Time Admin/Mod would have to be placed to deal with only those Reports. Everyting can be fixed, but if one is intend on automating everything in favour of rolling up one's Sleeves, Services and Functions get axed.

And I will also point out that these implications of lack of moderator impartiality are a good way to get this thread - which I might add are a courtesy of the Admin to see what the prevailing opinions are of this forum adjustment - shut down, thus closing the door on your last chance to have your opinion heard.

And those are the final Nails in the Coffin.

Politics
Current Events
Religion
Show ALL Forums  > Plentyoffish Site/Suggestions/Help  >