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 Jim978
Joined: 7/15/2008
Msg: 103
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???Page 4 of 8    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)

That said, when you're living with a "partner", all bets are off. You can't call your "partner" a "tenant" just to avoid the possibility of losing half your interest in the home. That wouldn't fly, and any court in the land would chew you up and spit you out sideways if you tried that approach. Lawyers ain't stupid, neither are judges overseeing the separation proceedings.


I think this is where the disconnect is between the Canadian system and the U.S. system. A co-habitating S/O gains nothing by default in the U.S.. It takes additional conditions to create any sort of interest before anything could be enforced in a court.

For example, we recently had a case locally where 2 women were living together. One owned the house for 30+ years and had a few children. The other had moved in as a roommate and apparently things got more romanticlly involved as time went on. The owner of the house became estranged from her children and promised the other woman that if she passed away, the other woman could remain in the house as long as she wished and that the house was "theirs".

They ended up having a major disagreement and splitting up and the owner was sued. The complaint was that the woman had told her partner that the house was "theirs" and that she could expect to live there indefinately. The partner won the suit for a small amount of money but the judge made it very clear during the jury instructions that the law doesn't create any property interest just because 2 people share a household and that the jury could only consider the additional promises made that were above and beyond them living in the same house.


In any case, unless you're willing to lose equity in your home upon possible breakup, don't fall back on meaningless buzzwords like "trust" assuming blindly that he/she "ain't like that". When money's concerned, or property, believe me...ANYONE can be "like that".

It pays to protect your investments. Life insurance. Home insurance. Car insurance. Traveller's insurance. Protect your assets too (like property), and don't be dissuaded with words like "trust". Too many people get their asses burned with "trust" as the precipitator.


I couldn't agree more.
 sherilyn70
Joined: 1/26/2007
Msg: 104
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 4:57:17 PM
Jim, you're example is about a same sex couple which still doesn't hold as much value in the US as an opposite sex one. Gay couples do not have many rights in the US, many states did away with the common law rules because they didn't want to have to include same sex domestic partners. Ohio recently did away with it out of fear of gays being able to marry. The argument you presented was that the house was hers to live in indefinitely though and not about collecting equity, however she was actually awarded money. The judges warning didn't say she couldn't collect but only that could consider the promises that were made to her in their compensation decision... which clearly they did side with her. Law may not actually create property interest, but most people will see the intent and award based on that.
 kellygrl51
Joined: 9/21/2008
Msg: 105
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 5:03:01 PM
If he was paying for cable before he should continue to do so. To buy himself a new truck and turn off cable is just selfish....
 Jim978
Joined: 7/15/2008
Msg: 106
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 5:14:48 PM

No, I am not adding anything to the scenario.


No? So you didn't say "in trust that it was towards your future"?? That's adding to the sceanrio.


If you are a couple and you live together the courts are going to assume that you did it out of love and wanting to build a future together just as any other person would. Promises don't have to be made in this world... agreements of the opposite must be stated so that assumptions can't stand up in court. If you walk into a bank with a gun out the assumption is made you were going to rob it and you will be arrested. Intent is there when you make the decision to live togehter and if you never said "you are only paying rent and not gaining any equity or interest" It seems a bit silly to think you'd want to rent a room from your partner instead of sharing a live together. The concept of living together is to be with your partner for the long run. In case you have not noticed, umarried couples now get mortgages, car loans, and even adopt children together.
then logically it was towards a couples future, which includes financial gains.

There is a long continuium of reasons why people live together. YOU may be doing so with the intent of living together forever but that's you. I know of no court (in the U.S. anyway) that makes any assumption that applies to anyone. Many people live together as a matter of convience - not with long term plans in mind. Seperate this discussion from your personal situation.

And you are right (IMO) in that "Promises don't have to be made in this world... agreements of the opposite must be stated so that assumptions can't stand up in court." but wrong on "then logically it was towards a couples future, which includes financial gains.". You make a leap in logic here that doesn't hold. It might be YOUR intent to build towards a future together but that isn't a default assumption in law or the courts nor for everyone else out there co-habitating.

That is exactly why stating that the person is paying rent and NOT paying towards equity or some future goal holds up in courts. Telling someone that they are paying rent IS stating the opposite.
 Jim978
Joined: 7/15/2008
Msg: 107
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 5:25:52 PM

The argument you presented was that the house was hers to live in indefinitely though and not about collecting equity, however she was actually awarded money.


The argument is in whether or not an interest in the property exists. Without an interest the plaintiff has no standing to sue to begin with. Only after an interest has been established does the distinction between living there indefinatently or gaining an equity share matter.


The judges warning didn't say she couldn't collect but only that could consider the promises that were made to her in their compensation decision... which clearly they did side with her. Law may not actually create property interest, but most people will see the intent and award based on that.


errr... Apparetly you read something into the post that wasn't there. The award was based on the promises which the law recognises as creating the property interest. The point being that living together in itself didn't create the interest. That later promises did.
 sherilyn70
Joined: 1/26/2007
Msg: 108
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 5:26:30 PM

That is exactly why stating that the person is paying rent and NOT paying towards equity or some future goal holds up in courts. Telling someone that they are paying rent IS stating the opposite.

However the burden is going to lie on you to prove that you said that in a romanticaly involved relationship. It is not common for people to just rent from their SO. They almost always do not have seperate living quarters and they share a bed. I don't know of anyone that has ever moved in together without the hopes for it to last a long time.
 Jim978
Joined: 7/15/2008
Msg: 109
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 5:35:22 PM
However the burden is going to lie on you to prove that you said that in a romanticaly involved relationship.


Paper and ink were created to solve this very problem. It doesn't take much to write out a monthly receipt and write "Novermber 2008 rent payment" on it when they give you the check or to write "Rent" in the memo field on their check.
 Its Better Together
Joined: 7/27/2008
Msg: 110
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 5:44:04 PM
Jessica... Jessica... Jessica....

Trouble in paradise already? When both partners are struggling to make ends meet this often leads to anger and resentments. This is not a good sign, especially so soon into a relationship.
Were you both struggling financially before you moved in together? Did you move in together in an attmept to ease the burdens of each other?
It sounds to me like you moved in with him to obtain a cheap roof over your head while you go to school. It sounds to me like he moved you in so that he could have a free babysitter.
I think the cable bill is the least of your problems!
 davidsauvignon
Joined: 2/6/2008
Msg: 111
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Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 7:51:59 PM
Jim, I'd be curious to know if the same person who lives under another's roof without their name on the deed, yet feel entitled to the equity in the residence upon a break up....what they would think if after the break up, instead of siphoning off the equity, they were required to continue to pay the mortgage? I mean, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, right? If you want to reap the benefit, are you willing to risk it the the other way? Probably not....entitlement is only a one-way street. Where the heck is Judge Judy when you need her?! lol




~ds~
 sherilyn70
Joined: 1/26/2007
Msg: 112
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 8:04:49 PM

Jim, I'd be curious to know if the same person who lives under another's roof without their name on the deed, yet feel entitled to the equity in the residence upon a break up....what they would think if after the break up, instead of siphoning off the equity, they were required to continue to pay the mortgage? I mean, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, right? If you want to reap the benefit, are you willing to risk it the the other way? Probably not....entitlement is only a one-way street. Where the heck is Judge Judy when you need her?! lol


Isn't that what happens in divorces? Equity is split, often the house is sold or refinanced and the leaving member is paid out. I don't understand why you think this would be so different. If you spend 5 years paying towards a mortgage with your partner then you should get the equivalent equity back out of it because they will benefit from it when they do go to sell in the future.
 Jim978
Joined: 7/15/2008
Msg: 113
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 8:27:59 PM

Isn't that what happens in divorces? Equity is split, often the house is sold or refinanced and the leaving member is paid out. I don't understand why you think this would be so different. If you spend 5 years paying towards a mortgage with your partner then you should get the equivalent equity back out of it because they will benefit from it when they do go to sell in the future.


Hmmm... From your response it looks like you've read his question exactly oppposite of what I read.

He said "instead of siphoning off the equity" so I read it as a scenario where:

I own a house.
I get involved in a relationship with you and you move in.
You contribute towards the payments on the mortgage but your name is never put on the title.
5 years later we split and the court orders you to continue making payments toward my mortgage while I remain living in it and in full control of it.

IOW, you DON'T get any equity back. You just get to continue making payments.
 Dancing_4_You
Joined: 1/21/2006
Msg: 114
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Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 8:36:57 PM
since we don't know the percentage of total bills that you are contributing, i would assume that it is less than one fourth? do you also use his car, even if together? do the kids watch cable? his car is an asset, although if new, it depreciates fast the first year. so, hopefully it's a good used one. the asset is in his name, as it's his car. is the house in his name? and your car?

it sounds like you really care for the kids and you take care of them. i assume he does too and also does things that benefit you. if not, then it's a no win-win situation as that should be your objective: win-win.

so, assuming that this is just a "struggling" issue, i'd suggest you invest in a copy of quicken software, get all your bank accounts and credit cards on there, categorize your expenditures, including taxes and both your incomes. then use either the class feature or tag feature to the effect of something like this: Y (you), H (him), k1 (kid one) et al and then J (joint). this helps get a handle on what exactly you are spending versus what you think you are spending and who is it for. so, if the car he bought is used by all of you, then it's one fourth. you both should agree that in the future, once your budget is made and agreed upon, that extra expenses must be discussed or come out of either his or your discretionary income. then together sit down and analyze.

if you had your own place, it would cost you probably more. same for him with respect to your care for the girls. try to develop a household budget and agree to each person's contribution. one way to do this is each of you pretend you are the other, then switch places so you both see both points of view.

he should be paying for costs incurred by the girls. if they share a room, then they are not a full one fourth when it comes to rent, heat, etc. that allocation goes by use of space. water is often shared equally. you'd both be the best judge of assessing what costs are allocated to whom and by what proportion. then you just split the entries according to each person's estimated consumption.

it takes the emotions out of it, gives you both a joint task to focus on and as a tool, can help you both think objectively. there should be no blame, just problem solving. it should demonstrate that each of you has some discretion, but that doesn't mean that if he chooses the car and you chose the cable, that either of you should hoard it. he can still drive you and if you get cable, he's free to watch it as well. but he gets first dibs on the car use and you get first dibs on the cable.

it just means you each get some personal gratification and if he does pay considerably more and you do more of the household "stuff", then you should receive an "in-kind" credit for what you do , that he would otherwise have to pay for. if he still makes way more and does way more than you do for the "household", since you are not yet married, your future investment may bring nothing towards the family if you then up and move out. so, you need to demontrate some sort of equitable contribution right now, or allow him some more discretionary income.

this becomes autopilot after a while. it may not be the relationship as much as it is that neither of you have faced your spending patterns. you can get the kids involved also and teach them the art of budgeting early. you can also use envelopes, each with a budgeted amount. when the envelope runs out of food money, that's it for the month. you adjust very quickly when you can "see" the money and watch it diminish. credit cards are often not a good idea when money is as tight as your describe!

ps quicken was used in our marriage whenever he got laid off, to assess the unusual costs of teen adoption and in the end, we sat down togther and analyzed/concluded a divorce agreement. i'd take quicken over a marriage counselor any day , if it's a money problem you are having!
 davidsauvignon
Joined: 2/6/2008
Msg: 115
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Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/24/2008 11:02:02 PM

I own a house.
I get involved in a relationship with you and you move in.
You contribute towards the payments on the mortgage but your name is never put on the title.
5 years later we split and the court orders you to continue making payments toward my mortgage while I remain living in it and in full control of it.

IOW, you DON'T get any equity back. You just get to continue making payments.


Exactly. Let's go back to the OP's scenario, i.e. 1 year, not 5, 7 or 10 or whatever common law in the U.S. is. Say he just refinanced and took a second mortgage, rolled in all his unsecured debt, etc. So now, he has a $200,000 mortgage on a house he originally bought for $160,000. Add to that, the way the housing market is today, he might be lucky to get $180,000. So my point was, is the person who is cohabiting going to step up and assume half of the $20,000 negative equity? The same as they would if the $20,000 was real equity? I mean the same love and hope and promise for the future exists between them, right?





~ds~
 sherilyn70
Joined: 1/26/2007
Msg: 117
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/25/2008 5:26:02 AM
Exactly. Let's go back to the OP's scenario, i.e. 1 year, not 5, 7 or 10 or whatever common law in the U.S. is. Say he just refinanced and took a second mortgage, rolled in all his unsecured debt, etc. So now, he has a $200,000 mortgage on a house he originally bought for $160,000. Add to that, the way the housing market is today, he might be lucky to get $180,000. So my point was, is the person who is cohabiting going to step up and assume half of the $20,000 negative equity? The same as they would if the $20,000 was real equity? I mean the same love and hope and promise for the future exists between them, right?


I would expect the same as in any split relationship. If a couple divorces they do not continue paying on a house together. They sell it even if it is negative equity. if the owning partner needs to sell the house (and not wait out the market) then yes, I would expect both to take up the loss (but it would not be a 50/50 split and be based on the number of years ratio).

I own a house right now, the boyfriend will not pay me money for living here for the first year but will put it into a savings account where it can gain interest. After that 1 year trial the money will either go back into the house or we will have broken up. If we are still together, at that point I would expect him to have some vestment in the house and if we broke up 5 years after that I would make sure he got his share back from the investment. Once we start paying all of the bills as a single unit then I don't care if his name isn't on the title... he is still investing in a property and it would just be silly for him to go out and buy his own house. A house is an important part of most retirement plans.

Maybe I'm not a greedy and selfish person in breakups like it seems so many others are. I'm not in a relationship to see how much I can take the other for for my own financial gain.
 Rachelle~C
Joined: 6/30/2008
Msg: 118
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/25/2008 5:56:27 AM

Irrelevant. Your on POF seeking a male for dating while you're suckering a poor guy for co-habiting expenses and then trying to garner pity. I expect you to stop using others.




She already said pages back that they just broke up.It helps to read a thread.
 WhiteWaterRogue
Joined: 4/3/2007
Msg: 119
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/25/2008 5:57:41 AM
Tread is too damn longe....
 Jim978
Joined: 7/15/2008
Msg: 120
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/25/2008 6:20:27 AM

I would expect the same as in any split relationship. If a couple divorces they do not continue paying on a house together.


I don't know how many divorced men you've known over the years but there are many, many, many that DO continue to pay after a divorce. (I don't know about women but I'd guess those that make child support payments are in the same boat) Stroll through the Single Parents forum and look at how many discussions there are about how Child Support payments are used to cover all/part of the mortgage.
 El_Mariachi
Joined: 4/21/2007
Msg: 121
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/25/2008 7:06:47 AM
Generally 50/50, but sometimes that isn't possible.

Sometimes... and this is my own experience here... one of you makes way more than the other. This was the case with my ex-fiance and I, so how we did it was he paid the rent (and his own credit card, gas and car expenses) and I paid everything else.. utilities and the majority of the groceries (plus my own credit card and school loan expenses).

It worked out great.

When I lived with another BF, we made around the same so we split everything 50/50.

Either time we sat down and figured out what would work best.
 sherilyn70
Joined: 1/26/2007
Msg: 122
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/25/2008 7:12:53 AM

I don't know how many divorced men you've known over the years but there are many, many, many that DO continue to pay after a divorce. (I don't know about women but I'd guess those that make child support payments are in the same boat) Stroll through the Single Parents forum and look at how many discussions there are about how Child Support payments are used to cover all/part of the mortgage.

You keep changing the scenario... now you're bringing kids and child support into this issue. :) I've known lots of divorced men and most of them had full custody of the kids. The guy I'm with now is divorced as well but the ex-wife has custody. He isn't paying her mortgage.

How a full custody parent chooses to use the payments of child support is up to them, that is no longer the other persons income. They are the one that has to pay taxes on the money and it is considered THEIR income. The children also live there and that money is for their share in the house (which assuming they don't run their money into the ground will eventually go to the children at death). If they didn't have the kids they could just buy a 1 bedroom condo and save a lot of money. If they spend it all on the mortgage they still have to pay for the kids food and clothing out of something, right? Unless of course the other person is stupid enough to give them even more money on top of the child support agreement.
 Jim978
Joined: 7/15/2008
Msg: 123
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/25/2008 7:31:40 AM

You keep changing the scenario... now you're bringing kids and child support into this issue. :)


Well, I'll fully admit that I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here.

When you make statements like...


I would expect the same as in any split relationship.


you are speaking in terms of absolutes. Isn't a relationship where one or the other has children a part of "any relationship"? (And it does tie in since that was what the OP posted about before things went off on tangents.)

This was my basic objection to the 50/50 and "Whoever makes more should pay more" scenarios that people have suggested all along. Everyone's situation is different so, to me, there are no absolutes. I think Serenity laid it out pretty well above. If two people are going to cohabitate you have to break things down and take the emotion out of it. Then you can establish an agreement that both can live with without any hard feelings either way.
 kellygrl51
Joined: 9/21/2008
Msg: 125
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/25/2008 8:45:02 AM
"She already said pages back that they just broke up.It helps to read a thread."

It sure does...she started the thread 10/17 broke up with the guy 10/23 and she's already looking for someone else. Sounds like she needs her bills paid....
 GrandmaBooBoo
Joined: 12/30/2006
Msg: 126
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Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/25/2008 8:58:04 AM
Yes, if YOU want the cable, then you should pay the bill. At first, I almost agreed with those suggesting that you should pay only 1/4 of the bill...or as one recommended...kicking the guy if he was caught watching it; then I allowed maturity to rule and it occurred to me, that PERHAPS neither of you is really ready for a big grown up relationship.

I have just the slightest inkling that the cable bill is only a cover-up for some more serious issues in the relationship.
 carolann0308
Joined: 12/9/2006
Msg: 127
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History
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/25/2008 10:39:47 AM
In the US, you can charge anyone rent to live in your home. Adult children, elderly parents and yes even a live-in GF/BF.
All you need is to set an amount (best to have a rental agreement you can easily download online) and have them issue a check monthly stating it is for rent, you can even get it notorized at your bank for a few dollars. This way they contribute towards expenses and it is very clear that they hold no interest in the ownership of the home. They are your tenant and you are protected financially.
 oceanbreeze77
Joined: 4/19/2008
Msg: 129
Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/27/2008 3:25:24 PM
I have some cave crickets living in my crawl space. Since the heat of the dryer goes into the crawlspace and they can hear the t.v., should they be splitting the bills with me?

This subject has be beaten to death.


Happy Halloween, Ya'll!!
 MyKidsDadIAm
Joined: 8/10/2005
Msg: 130
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Who Pays What When Your Cohabiting???
Posted: 10/27/2008 3:43:33 PM

This subject has be beaten to death.
And looks like you gave it one final blow!!!.. :) Happy Halloween to you too... May this thread rest in peace.
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