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 o4
Joined: 4/7/2007
Msg: 106
Prop 8Page 4 of 52    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)
I don't see why the church needs to be involved AT ALL - it's NONE of their business.

Actually, the institution of marriage was initiated by "the church" long before any government was involved. Later it became an institution shared by the two in jurisiding practices. What we have here now today is the government trying to take away the reigns on this from them and making them theirs altogether.
 amusinglisa
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 110
Prop 8
Posted: 10/27/2008 11:55:41 AM
If "marriage" MUST be considered a religious institution, then take the term out of all legal documentation FIRST. Then go ahead and do whatever you want with that. The trouble is that there is a group of people that want their religious term, which they insist is theirs and theirs alone, to have legal privileges. Pick ONE.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 112
Prop 8
Posted: 10/27/2008 2:23:51 PM
Let me ask you this. What incentive does the legislature have to purge references to a religious term like "marriage" from the lawbooks? Doing so would only anger the same folks who want to see their definition "sanctified" by law.

If you want a clear separation between church and state, such that no other groups try to horn in on what you feel is your good, true, and right definition of the word, then you should vote no on 8 and work for an amendment that does the right thing.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 115
Prop 8
Posted: 10/27/2008 3:05:53 PM

If the "legal business" will impact the churches in the US (as is already happening in Canada)--believe me, its everyone's business.


Could you please be specific about the problems you anticipate?


Your promotion of blatant negligence over the ramifications of such a law is, well, immature and irresponsible, to say the least. This is very much about making churches do what they don't to do--even if that is not the stated intent--that will be the result.


There is nothing that forces a church or minister to perform a ceremony. There are plenty of Universal Life ministers who'd be more than happy to marry anyone.


My expressed beef is not about who should be allowed to marry or not marry--again, it is about redefining what constitutes a marriage in this country and the consequences of such a change.


Which are?
 amusinglisa
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 117
Prop 8
Posted: 10/27/2008 4:36:49 PM
katergal and matchless, specifically:

California has had legal gay marriage for four months now. Surely in that time at least one dire consequence must have reared its terrifying head from the hundreds (thousands?) of marriages that have already been performed.

PLEASE give us ONE example of how we have been negatively impacted by this supposed scourge upon us all. Show us one divorce filing that says the couple if divorcing because their gay neighbor/child/parent got to marry their partner. Highlight for us one, just one child that has been told that they have to marry a partner of the same gender. Give us ONE example of those horrible horrible acts of matrimony wrecking our lives and our society.
 o4
Joined: 4/7/2007
Msg: 126
Prop 8
Posted: 10/27/2008 7:10:26 PM
Hi Raraavis,
Good entry.
As you saw, (and although most know I'm Chrisitian), I tried to not make my post an exclusively "Christian" one....... many religious orders have regarded marriage as a union between a man and a woman for many centuries. I feel safely, correct me if I'm wrong, that you're not out to challenge that.

My interest in replying however is that "Gay marriage has been around for a long time" has me sort of wincing.

I don't know exactly in what year Cain killed Able either.....but just because murder has been around for a long time too doesn't make that a good thing.....

Pope?
Well, since I'm protestant, .....there's a lot that the Pope isn't ready for (I still miss the last one!), but I still think he's a great guy in general.

o4
 o4
Joined: 4/7/2007
Msg: 128
Prop 8
Posted: 10/27/2008 7:25:45 PM

flourish by using contemporary culture as inspiration to reshape

Don't know about you all, but when I'm done eating this Carl's Jr hamburger I have here, I can't wait to see where Ms. Hilton takes us next!
 amusinglisa
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 129
Prop 8
Posted: 10/27/2008 7:29:15 PM
Elaine Huguenin of Elane Photography was contacted in 2006 by a same-sex couple wanting pictures taken of their “commitment ceremony.” After Huguenin told them she only photographed traditional marriages, the couple filed a complaint for discrimination against their sexual orientation. The case was taken before the New Mexico Human Rights Commission, which heard the case in January. On Wednesday, the state commission ruled that Huguenin violated the state’s Human Rights Act.


This has NOTHING to do with gay marriage. This is a civil suit and involves a commitment ceremony.

Please explain how this has anything at all to do with same gender marriage.
 amusinglisa
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 134
Prop 8
Posted: 10/27/2008 8:47:06 PM

Its an example of the coming iceburg (or icecube) amusinglisa.


Nope, this is WITHOUT same gender marriage. kater, is that hard to understand? That's like saying the cake fell because Mt. St. Helens erupted last century.
 Sirens Call
Joined: 7/29/2007
Msg: 136
Prop 8
Posted: 10/27/2008 9:03:54 PM

But, just remember, as freedom for one in this country erodes, so does freedom for all


Who's freedom are you concerned with? Not your fellow Citizen's who happen to be Gay I take it.
 john_in_bh
Joined: 12/25/2004
Msg: 137
Prop 8
Posted: 10/27/2008 9:06:04 PM
OK, seriously people...think about this in an unbiased manner for a moment.
Marriage is one thing but giving adoption rights is another. Here is a possible scenario.

Joe and Sam go to an adoption agency, and adopt a 4 year old boy as their son. Children, grow up with parents as their role models almost all the time. This can't be argued as everyone writing here has looked to their parents for answers and guidance when they are growing up. >:
Joe (perhaps the husband that plays the wife's role) comes home from work, while their adopted son is sitting at the dinner table Sam set up to sit down and have dinner. Sam comes running out of the kitchen and gives Joe a big hug and a nice big kiss on the lips. This is in clear view of their son. So, they sit down and have dinner and go about just like a hetrosexual couple. After dinner, they watch some TV and get ready for bed. They put their son to bed (his bedroom, is directly adjacent sharing a common wall) as they don't have much money for a large house. They then, naturally start having sexual intercourse. Their son, of course hears them... (you can finish the rest of the story here) As their son grows up, in his pre-teen years he will start to get confused why all the other children have mommies or daddies or both (a couple that stays married- wow). He will then turn to HIS parents for an explanation...(you finish this part too). ASK ANY psychiatric professional if this type of upbringing has any detrimental effects on a child. If they say it doesn't then they are a total liar. It's 100% common sense!
 Sirens Call
Joined: 7/29/2007
Msg: 139
Prop 8
Posted: 10/27/2008 9:11:33 PM
ASK ANY psychiatric professional if this type of upbringing has any detrimental effects on a child. If they say it doesn't then they are a total liar. It's 100% common sense!


I'd say walking in on my parents having sex had a pretty detrimental effect on me. I can't look at my Dad wearing a hat without laughing....

don't ask.
 Sirens Call
Joined: 7/29/2007
Msg: 142
Prop 8
Posted: 10/27/2008 9:15:47 PM
I love not meeting people's expectations. Thank you.

....you'd be right. I don't agree.

There's always that pesky Separation of Church and State thingy. It's limited in scope, but admirable in intent.
 Sirens Call
Joined: 7/29/2007
Msg: 147
Prop 8
Posted: 10/27/2008 9:38:38 PM

This issue unites church and state and impacts religious freedom Sirens. I hate to break that news to you, but its true...


You aren't free to worship as you like? You are not free to choose home/private schooling for your children? You don't get Christmas off from work? You don't get to VOTE?!

Are we in Afghanistan? Quick! Put your veil on!
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 150
Prop 8
Posted: 10/27/2008 10:12:11 PM
As you saw, (and although most know I'm Chrisitian), I tried to not make my post an exclusively "Christian" one....... many religious orders have regarded marriage as a union between a man and a woman for many centuries. I feel safely, correct me if I'm wrong, that you're not out to challenge that.


The fact that people have thought about marriage in a certain way for a long time doesn't mean that a more inclusive understanding cannot prevail. Slavery was around for a long time too. And a lot of churches and religious-minded people supported its continuation. Did any of that make it right?

Just because your daddy held a certain opinion doesn't mean you shouldn't think it through for yourself. Please do.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 152
Prop 8
Posted: 10/27/2008 10:17:34 PM
As their son grows up, in his pre-teen years he will start to get confused why all the other children have mommies or daddies or both (a couple that stays married- wow). He will then turn to HIS parents for an explanation...(you finish this part too). ASK ANY psychiatric professional if this type of upbringing has any detrimental effects on a child. If they say it doesn't then they are a total liar. It's 100% common sense!


Nonsense. If no one explains anything to that child, then yes, you might have a point. But gay couples know that they are only about 10% of the population. If anyone would have an incentive to explain things, and explain them in a loving, supportive, inclusive, and calm manner, it would be a gay couple raising straight children.

It is only those who are so presumptuous as to think that their way is the only way who neglect the emotional development of their children. Good Christian parents for many generations honestly believed that it was their duty to break the spirits of their children to prevent those children from rotting in hell. Why did they go along with nonsense like that, even when every instinct in them railed against it?

Mark Twain said it best: "It ain't what don't know as gets me in trouble. It's what I know that just ain't so."

Do you really think that you know what you are talking about?
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 153
Prop 8
Posted: 10/27/2008 10:21:35 PM

Because same sex marriage impacts religious freedom in America--this particular Catholic Charities can no longer continue to do the good work they have done in this country.


Of course they can. They just can't do it as exclusively as they would prefer. And so, rather than rendering unto Ceaser and doing their work in such a way that it supports the civil authority, they voluntarily chose to stop.

If I recall the story correctly, it was a Samaritan--reviled and despised in the same way that Judeans have always disdained Palestenians--who Jesus praised for coming to the aid of the oppressed.

When you choose your prejudice over your faith, you don't get to plead religious persecution.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 154
Prop 8
Posted: 10/27/2008 10:23:27 PM

I'm saying that it IMPACTS it and I don't see anyone planning for the impact.


That is the problem of waiting until the Courts decide things instead of being proactive and getting the legislation right. But there it is.

So, what are the specific impacts and what should we do to prepare for them? That would be a useful discussion!
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 156
Prop 8
Posted: 10/27/2008 10:32:34 PM

No, Prop 8 threatens my freedom to practice my religion freely, so, worship as I "like" is most certainly being removed from my life by way of the legal system in this country.


What is the specific threat to your personal right to practice your religion freely? How does gay marriage oppress you personally?
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 159
Prop 8
Posted: 10/27/2008 11:06:30 PM
No AceofSpace, they cannot continue the good work they have done in this country. Don't be intellectually dishonest by minimizing a very strong belief system as being simple a matter of exclusivity.


Now, I have been fair with you and have tried to understand your viewpoint. So when I say this to you I want you to really listen and listen carefully.

DON'T YOU DARE TELL ME THAT I'M BEING INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST.

Unless, of course, you are ready to look at yourself and answer the same accusation.

Are you?

Are you ready to honestly confront the possibility that it is YOU who are being intellectually dishonest? Are you ready to answer the charge that it is YOU who are minimizing logic, evidence, and compassion for the sake of EXCLUSIVITY?

Because that is exactly what I see you doing.

I base my position on the logic of equal rights, the evidence that no ill effects have emerged in major cities where gays are tolerated, and the compassion that say that love is no respecter of persons and that demeaning others in any way is unChristian and unkind.

Tell me how the denial of the right to marry is NOT demeaning when people love each other, and then tell me a logical basis for denying the same recognition of the LOVE that they feel you would want for the LOVE that you feel?

When you can explain that difference to me, I will yield the point.

But if you cannot, will you entertain the possibility that you're just parroting what you've heard and haven't really thought it through for yourself? Or are you just a mindless schill?

I await your response. Please think it through carefully because I intend to accord it all the respct it deserves.
 john_in_bh
Joined: 12/25/2004
Msg: 162
Prop 8
Posted: 10/28/2008 8:49:04 AM

Nonsense. If no one explains anything to that child, then yes, you might have a point. But gay couples know that they are only about 10% of the population. If anyone would have an incentive to explain things, and explain them in a loving, supportive, inclusive, and calm manner, it would be a gay couple raising straight children


Well, even if it's all fine and dandy with the explanation to the child (although I still disagree) there are still other consequences. I was raised a Catholic (although my Dad was Jewish, it was not told to me) however I don't look Jewish at all by most peoples standard. When I started school, I was sent to a predominantly Jewish school and the other children made terrible fun of me. They called me names, such as Hitler, Nazi etc. The point I am trying to make, is that children have no mercy on being cruel. I guess they don't know better. When word gets out, about little Timmy having two daddies you can be rest assured that the vicious attacks will happen. I can't even imagine how that would feel to a child and that it would not effect him at all later as an adult. Even with his parents support and explanations it would not do much good.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 167
Prop 8
Posted: 10/28/2008 11:53:42 AM
You used the word exclusivity. That was dishonest.


Not at all. I merely borrowed the word from you.


The logic of equal rights was never intended to trample religious freedom--yet this is what it is being used for in this country and others--in the name of some new order.


So the fear mongers tell you. Go to San Francisco and show me any church that is being threatened by the gay presence there.


This is not a matter of demeaning anyone, but of holding fast to the teachings of the Holy and Apostolic Roman Catholic Church.


You are entirely free to continue practicing your faith as you always have.


I believe that marriage is state reserved for a man and a woman--and I apply my religious freedom to maintain this belief.


I happen to believe differently on this point. And since I do, and I also have a right to practice my faith, who are you to tell me that your faith trumps mine? What gives you the EXCLUSIVE right to dictate who I marry?

If the only authority you can cite is your church, well, then I'll just get a bigger church and vote out heterosexual marriage one of these days.

DON'T YOU GET IT?

When you try to impose your doctrine on someone else, you leave the door open for someone else to impose their doctrine on YOU.

So please, stop parroting what your preacher tells you and think it through for yourself. I don't care which conclusion you come to after you've thought it through. But you, dear, are reacting against what is unfamiliar--just like the slaveholders did back 150 years ago.


All of the laughter combined with forceful and demeaning speech won't change the fact that a group is overstepping its boundaries and acting against the best interests of families and children in America ...


Correct. That group includes the old guard of the Catholic Church, the Mormon Church, and the radical Evangelicals who want to impose their doctrines on others instead of simply proclaiming the Good News as they were instructed.
 amusinglisa
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 171
Prop 8
Posted: 10/28/2008 12:26:38 PM


Its an example of the coming iceburg (or icecube) amusinglisa.


Nope, this is WITHOUT same gender marriage. kater, is that hard to understand? That's like saying the cake fell because Mt. St. Helens erupted last century.


Did you SERIOUSLY answer a comment about the photographer that was very clearly pointing out that you misrepresented yourself, the argument and the story with yet ANOTHER inappropriate and incorrect misdirection (which simply states that the catholic church is choosing to exercise its religious freedom EVEN when faced with same gender marriage -- no restriction on their freedom AT ALL)?

Looks like a campaign that is switching from the issues to hate rhetoric... Hmmmmmmm... I guess when the truth doesn't work, scary-sounding things seem like a good plan?
 amusinglisa
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 172
Prop 8
Posted: 10/28/2008 12:31:51 PM

If I am not free in this country to say no, I will not issue a same sex adoption, or no, I will not marry a gay marriage ceremony, or photograph one, or attend one, what will happen to me? If my fellow citizens accuse me of being a bigot for not believing what they do, and if I am said to be acting in an exclusive or prejudice fashion for upholding 2,000 years of consistent and unchanging doctrine, then it is only appropriate to say now, kill me first because I will never not bow down to civil authorities acting on whims of culture and trying to change my beliefs. It ain't gonna happen.


Got news for ya, darlin -- there are still people in this country who, believe it or not, don't think women should have the right to vote; don't think blacks should be allowed to go to school with whites; don't think Jews should be allowed to "take over" businesses; don't think they should have to sell real estate to people they don't think are the right race, religion or nationality. Anyone can be as bigoted as they wish -- the rest of us can just shake our heads and deal. No one is going to take that away from you.

Heck, there are plenty of people who think raising kids without a mom and a dad are the scourge of the earth... and we widows just do the best we can to deal with that. Yup. You get to keep that one, too, Kater. Good for you!!
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 174
Prop 8
Posted: 10/28/2008 1:05:33 PM

To live in peace, does one group force another to zero out their own values to match a new set by way of lawmaking?

To live in peace, does one group press on, insulting and belittling anyone who says, "wait, that is not going to be so good for us in the long run..."

To live in peace, does one group do a happy dance about the trouble they are causing religious?


All true. All equally applicable if you want to live in peace with those who are gay.
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