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 AUTHOR
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 382
Prop 8Page 7 of 52    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)

Sadly though, reality dictates that same sex marriage hurts lots of people (even kids), in more ways than one...


Sadly, you cannot seem to name even one.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 383
Are we there yet?
Posted: 11/1/2008 2:48:16 AM

Those who share a mass-delusion rarely recognize it as such, and can pursue the most heinous acts in a spirit of self-righteousness.


Do you think that your faith makes you immune from this type of error in judgment?
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 385
Bob
Posted: 11/1/2008 2:53:42 AM

Not one researcher that I've heard has published anything yet about finding the gay gene. Seems to me that would be a very high-interest area, but no such results.....at least not yet.


If you had read what Mominatrix posted, you would understand that there need not be a gay gene because sexual differentiation is a shared process between mother and fetus. It has to do with the extent and timing of the hormone signals that the mother produces while the fetus is developing. There doesn't have to be a "gay" gene for people to be intrinsically homosexual from birth.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 387
Bob
Posted: 11/1/2008 2:58:36 AM
No, I don't think he's in a mood to be told what his own experience is. When what he tells you about his experience doesn't match the picture you have, whom will you believe?

Besides, unlike me, he's been very polite to you. And that post was more of a respectful request than an attempt to control you. Obviously, the only ones who can do that are your precious priests, and they have done a mighty fine job.
 amusinglisa
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 392
Just ONE example, please
Posted: 11/1/2008 5:16:29 AM


This is about CIVIL UNION -- y'all have stated that this would be OK with you. New Jersey does not recognize same sex marriage.


HELLO, if this happened because of a civil union it follows that gay marriage will make things much worse.


HELLO! It's not about gay marriage and it is not about the consequences of civil union, either, it's about the consequences of making bigoted choices in a public business - try the ol' substituting in the "n" word for "lesbian" and see if that's appaling - if it is, you've recognized bigotry, if it's not -- well, there isn't much to say, is there).

we STILL have not seen ONE example of a gay marriage causing ANYONE harm.



No on h8
 amusinglisa
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 393
Ace
Posted: 11/1/2008 5:21:07 AM

Bob must accept that he shares his airspace with others and stop acting like a brat (and you too with your anti-Catholic hate rhetoric).


If I had a dime for every time this woman calls someone on something she has done constantly, I could bail out the entire financial crisis.

Apparently, if you put "my religious beliefs" in front of what you say, it's not acting like a brat or forcing your beliefs on everyone else; that's only an issue if you disagree with this particular gals' beliefs...

Amazing.

NO on h8
 amusinglisa
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 394
Just ONE example, please
Posted: 11/1/2008 5:26:06 AM

Bob, if you wished to be married to a man, I'm sorry to be one to participate in being resistance to your dream. Yet, truth is that marriage occurs between a man and a woman because of their inherent ability to procreate.


Not my in-laws, who married in their late 50's.

I guess that leaves me out as well, since I am "of a certain age"...

How about younger people with fertility issues? Are you going to impose fertility testing as a condition of marriage?

OOOooooo. There's a whole new line of legislation the Mormons and the Catholics can work toward getting in the constitution -- especially if 8 passes and they have a precident.
 amusinglisa
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 395
Just ONE example, please
Posted: 11/1/2008 11:12:13 AM
Nothing in Prop 8 would force churches to do anything. In fact, the court decision regarding marriage specifically says “no religion will be required to change its religious policies or practices with regard to same-sex couples, and no religious officiant will be required to solemnize a marriage in contravention of his or her religious beliefs.”

No on h8
 amusinglisa
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 396
Just ONE example, please
Posted: 11/1/2008 11:13:34 AM
Fiction: If Prop 8 isn’t passed, people can be sued over personal beliefs.

* Fact: California’s laws already prohibit discrimination against anyone based on race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation. This has nothing to do with marriage.
 JadeMuse
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 399
Prop 8
Posted: 11/1/2008 2:46:45 PM
No matter what happens Tuesday, I am confident that this will be argued at the Supreme Court level, and it WILL be defeated to the point where a Constitutional Amendment WILL be made to ensure the rights of our citizenry:
Marriage is a legal, social contract between two consenting adults, and shall not be limited on the basis of sex or gender.

Everyone rest easy... this isn't the last word we will hear on this matter.

"It isn't our differences that divide us.
It is our inability to recognize, accept, and celebrate those differences."
--Audre Lorde


--No or Yes on 8... it won't matter.
I love this country!!!!!
 amusinglisa
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 400
Prop 8
Posted: 11/1/2008 3:15:16 PM
You are right Jade. I t saddens me that over $60M will be spent on this campaign and millions more on court cases, but this will happen, and within our lifetimes. it is amazing how this country and the human race eventually gives up sad, old, prejudiced ideas... it is sad that some find it worth spending those resources on politics rather than taking care of the thousands of children without health care, etc, etc...
 Miss W
Joined: 12/4/2006
Msg: 401
Prop 8
Posted: 11/1/2008 3:26:55 PM
^^^I've been thinking the same thing Lisa. All this money spent promoting h8 when their money could be better spent helping others.

 amusinglisa
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 403
Vote NO on h8
Posted: 11/1/2008 3:52:49 PM


"...it is amazing how this country and the human race eventually gives up sad, old, prejudiced ideas..."



While one might view marriage in the above fashion, there remains many members of our society who disagree. The opinion expressed above is important because you, amusinglisa said it, however, it is a subjective opinion.


do not put words in my mouth till you have put some thoughts in your head

It's easy to take things out of context, isn't it, Kater? All you have to do is put on your religious beliefs and you can read that someone commenting that people who wish to push their bigoted, prejudiced ideas on an entire state (and country, eventually) and turn it into a crack assaulting marriage. Amazing

I will reiterate taht I am delighted that this amazing country and humans in general will eventually give up yet another sad, tired, old prejudiced idea and stop trying to treat gays as second class citizens.

I suppose you will now take THAT out of context as well...?

NO on h8
 KarmicGrace
Joined: 8/15/2008
Msg: 411
A New Form of National Security
Posted: 11/1/2008 11:25:22 PM
To insist against the will of your neighbors to share the word marraige is not in the best interest of our freedom.


OUR freedom? Whose freedoms? People of religious persuasion that insist ALL follow the doctrine of a book called the Bible, which was written by man, FOR man? Those that force ALL to conform to what some book says and what they perceive to be their own truths and make it into law is what I myself call utter hypocracy and infringing on the rights of all citizens in this country. Just my own not so humble opinion and your mileage may vary concerning your own opinion. Just don't force yours on me. Vote no on 8.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 415
A New Form of National Security
Posted: 11/2/2008 12:48:07 AM
Perhaps the best movie on the subject of how a person can come to recognize his unwitting participation in bigotry is "The Color of Fear." I highly recommend it.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 416
Prop 8
Posted: 11/2/2008 7:27:42 AM
This morning's Los Angeles Times has an interesting editorial on Prop 8.
 blaqman
Joined: 1/27/2007
Msg: 417
view profile
History
Prop 8 is not bigotry
Posted: 11/2/2008 7:47:38 AM
Everyone has the right to marry even if Prop 8 passes, gays have the right to marry a person of the opposite sex just like hetros. The next step after the depraved defeat prop 8 is the argument that Californians are unfair because they do not support brother and sister marrying or mother and son. After that comes Billy-Bob and his goat. Yeah, we say it is ridiculous to toss those last two example in pot, and it is. But so too was the perverted idea of marrying two people of the same sex. We may hear some shallow like it is not the same as father and daughter. Problem is, it's EXACTLY the same.
 amusinglisa
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 418
Prop h8 is bigotry
Posted: 11/2/2008 9:19:34 AM
I don't read much bible, but I seem to recall that someone in there said something about rendering unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's...? Am I wrong on that?

What about "Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me"?

Probably easier to consider if one's savior is in prison he was framed, so it's OK to persecute people who really are outside of your comfort zone.


Maybe the people that think teaching your kids "right" will change their sexual orientation (like Cheney and Gingrich, I suppose) could go live someplace where they just kill people who disagree with the majority's "religious freedom". I hear Iraq is nice one or two days a year...

I think our country is better than that.

And our state.

NO on h8
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 419
Prop 8 is not bigotry
Posted: 11/2/2008 10:07:11 AM
Blaqman, you have the right to marry the person you love most in the world, so long as that person is a woman. But what if that person turned out to be a man?

Gay marriage could possibly set a precedent for brother-sister marriage, unless it can be shown that the risk of birth defects is sufficiently related to marriage that it cannot be allowed. But since that risk is the basis for the current prohibition against incest between men and women, gay marriage won't change it.

Marriage to children or animals will never pass muster because marriage is a legal contract, and neither children nor animals can make contracts. The current laws allowing minors to consent to marriage are a bigger threat to the sanctity of the institution than gays.

You have been listening to scare tactics that have nothing to do with the issue, which is one of equality vs. control over our government by a minority of religious fanatics --perhaps the last residue of institutional bigotry left. Just say no.

My parents were Goldwater Republicans. My Mom still is. He was enlightened enough to recognize that gays and lesbians were citizens entitled to equal protection under the law, way back in the early 60s. If he could see it, you can too. Please open your eyes.
 blaqman
Joined: 1/27/2007
Msg: 421
view profile
History
Prop 8 is not bigotry
Posted: 11/2/2008 12:11:19 PM
"Gay marriage could possibly set precedent of brohter-sister marriage, unless it can be shown that the risk of birth defect is sufficiently related to marriage that it cannot be allowed.........."

So AceofSpace, can we assume that you would support brother-sister marriage, or mother son if one or the other can not have children or agree to no pro-create?

"You have been listening to scare tactics that have nothing to do with the issue,........."

You are mistaken here. Just because someone does not like or support something does not mean that they are afraid of it. I do not like buttermilk but it hardly cause me to be scared. I will not vote no because I do support traditional marriage.

It is nice, I guess, that you parents are republicans but it hardly has anything to do with this topic. Please open your eyes and maybe maintain the few strands of moral fiber that remains in this state. If not for the state, then try nature.
 blaqman
Joined: 1/27/2007
Msg: 422
view profile
History
Prop h8 is bigotry
Posted: 11/2/2008 12:17:43 PM

"I don't read much bible, but I seem to recall that someone in there said something about rendering unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's...? Am I wrong on that? "


Amusinglisa - Huh!, what on earth does that have to do with this topic, please explain?
 amusinglisa
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 424
Prop h8 is bigotry
Posted: 11/2/2008 1:34:07 PM

Our Lord was talking about taxes, not votes. Those belong to individuals to cast as they wish--if votes belonged to Ceasar, we would belong to Rome. Are you wrong? You tell me.


Ah. So as long as you are not arguing with the state over taxes it's OK to persecute people based on the way you interpret the bible. Are you so very certain your lord wants you to punish your neighbor for who they love? Aren't you supposed to treat your neighbor as yourself?


Looks like the thought of treating the least anyone's brothers like second class citizens is OK, though...

I suppose you will be just fine letting Muslims amend the constitution in accordance with the Koran so they can have the freedom to practice their religion as well, right, Kater?


To change what a word means to others is not fair. That is like cheating others to get what someone else has. The ones who are persecuted are the ones who lose their freedom to believe what they believe about marriage because if they don't they will be punished.


Exactly, and that is exactly why we do not need an amendment to change the constitution. People will lose their freedom if what a word means to others is changed.


NO on H8

Of course, you are always free to believe what you wish. No one could ever legislate that...
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 427
Prop 8 is not bigotry
Posted: 11/2/2008 4:39:36 PM
So AceofSpace, can we assume that you would support brother-sister marriage, or mother son if one or the other can not have children or agree to no pro-create?


It seems to me that we have two standards for morality at work here, and in debates like this it is easy to mistake a person who subscribes to the other standard as immoral. My view is that individual rights are the foundation of morality. If someone's behavior isn't going to harm anyone else, I figure it's none of my business. If it is likely to hurt someone else, or to violate their rights, I consider it immoral.

Other people believe that communal institutions are the backbone of society, and that anything that would change them is a threat. They believe that those institutions ensure that we all cooperate and experience each other as fellow citizens bound together by a common heritage. I can't deny the truth in that, though I believe that anything that is scary about a change in favor of extending our recognition of individual rights can be worked out through reason. I also believe that reason has done a far better job of resolving our fears and bettering our lives than appeals to divine authority ever have. To me, holding to a definition for the sake of tradition is an indirect appeal to divine authority, and my preference is to rely on reason rather than tradition. To me, the componets of reason are logic, evidence, and compassion.

I happen to believe that the institutions we live in are meant to serve us and not the other way around. So if an institution is found to be in violation of any individual's rights, especially those of people whose behavior I don't understand or don't like, I think it is up to us to correct that injustice. I don't particularly want to live in a society that is built on the oppression of others, because one day that oppression could then be turned on me, even if that oppression is traditional, or seems like it ought to be considered mild by those who need not endure it.

Would I support marriages of those whose desire to marry I personally find disgusting? As long as they aren't hurting anybody else or putting anyone else at risk, I would hold my nose and consider it none of my business. BTW, I don't consider homosexuality to be disgusting per se. And my personal view of incest between adults is that it's probably none of my business as long as children aren't put at risk. Sexual abuse of children is a violation of their right to grow up healthy and free, and I consider that to be criminal, whether it is done by a parent or someone in religious authority.

I also consider spiritual abuse of children to be criminal, as it impairs a child from giving full reign to the reason which is God's gift to each of us. How dare any adult impose their ideology on a child and suppress that child's own capacity to learn, grow, think, and act with good judgment and autonomy? And make no mistake about it, scaring children to death with threats of eternal damnation if they do not conform is just as abusive as beating them with a stick.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 428
Prop 8 is not bigotry
Posted: 11/2/2008 4:43:59 PM
Yes, yes, we both know the world is full of bigots and such--but what if men and women who do not want to see the nature of romantic love in marriage redefined literally feel pain about this issue?


It depends on what you want. In a free society, no one said you'd never experience pain or grief. But we did promise each other that we would do everything in our power to prevent and correct _oppression._

If that means enduring the pain of having to see an institution we love and believe in change, that is what it means. I feel for your pain. But painful or not, your promise to that gay man over there is that you will stand with him in asserting his right to equality under the law. And you affirm that promise every time you vote.

Will you live up to it or not?
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 429
Prop h8 is bigotry
Posted: 11/2/2008 5:04:39 PM
Barbe,

I think that Willis was trying to say that being of a particular faith is no guarantee that one has good judgement when it comes to political action.

The Founding Fathers deliberately severed the link between church and state for that very reason. They recognized from their own collective experience of religious oppression that religious zeal can be an impediment to reason and sound public policy--as well as freedom.

Personally, after their initial disgust over the idea of gay marriage, I think they'd be proud as punch of the California Supreme Court, it's ruling, and their reasons for that ruling. And I think they'd be ashamed of us for bowing to the influence of the Mormon Church, the Catholic Church, and the Evangelicals who would just-as-soon take over the government and push everyone else out if they could.

If it's a choice between gay marriage and a return to the days of Medieval superstition, I know what I'd choose.
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