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Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 473
Prop H8 is bigotryPage 9 of 52    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)

But the neighbors are trying to take the name of the castle they did not build

If you are going to be upset that others build sand castles and have the audacity to call them "sand castles" why not go ahead and call yours a fishpaste instead?
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 474
Prop H8 is bigotry
Posted: 11/3/2008 11:30:10 AM

Its[sic] not a matter of rights

It IS a matter of rights as long as the word "marriage" is used in civil law to give benefits to individuals.

Seriously, there are countries that already are happy to protect "religious freedom" -- why are you not interested in living there?

Just ONE incident of harm, Kater? Can't you come up with ONE if this is such a harmful thing? Surely there must be ONE... You keep talking about all this imagined harm and have not yet come up with a single incident of harm resulting from any or all of the thousands of legal gay marriages...

The KKK used your bible to defend its views on "separate but equal". I guess that all should be reconsidered if 8 passes... there are evidently plenty of bible passages that can be used to defend that position...

No on H8
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 475
Prop 8
Posted: 11/3/2008 11:36:08 AM

...seem completely blinded by passion.

Actually Katerivta, it is more like: ...seem completely blinded by COMpassion.
It is not a bad place to be... in compassion, really!

And this one...???

Its not a matter of rights. Its a matter of reality. Marriage occurs between a man and a woman. A fool denies reality.

It IS so a matter of rights.
And, it IS a matter of reality.

A fool denies reality.
You said it!
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 478
Prop H8 is bigotry
Posted: 11/3/2008 11:59:50 AM

So keep it simple. Marriage was established by the fact that men and women can come together, multiply, and live as family units. Don't be a bully.

but it's OK to bully same sex couples, huh? Nice sense of justice you have there.

...and I suppose since I am unlikely to have more kids, I don't count as in that "multiply" category???

Look, either you are going with the "procreation" line, in which case you have to get busy checking fertility before allowing marriage OR you are letting some people have the comfort and companionship AND LEGAL RIGHTS of marriage and denying it to others because you don't like them.
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 480
No on H8
Posted: 11/3/2008 12:31:39 PM
If a couple is infertile or simply doesn't want children, they are still allowed to marry, right?
They can still adopt, if they qualify under the rules, and want to create the contract of responsibility that adoption and/or marriage actually are.

...We have a lot to consider before we go changing the definitions of words. Consider the consequences of actions, as noble as they might seem.

Yup. I agree with you there.
No on H8.
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 482
Prop 8
Posted: 11/3/2008 1:05:05 PM

The spiritual, physical and social reality tied to the concept of marriage can't be simplified as mere tradition. It is dishonest to suggest that marriage is simply a tradition. It is much more than that, to many.

Right. It is an exclusive club to which you want to restrict entry. Well, that's fine, except where legal rights and privileges are concerned.

Mominatrix had it right. Make them all civil unions for legal purposes, and then you can call your holy estate whatever you want to.
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 483
Posted: 11/3/2008 1:09:25 PM

Marriage was established by a man and a woman. Were it not for the the ability of men and women to multiply and live in family units, the term marriage would not exist.

Marriage, as you want to define it, was established by the Church. And now you want to codify your religious definition into law--not just a statute, but the state constitution--just so that you can keep others whom you find disgusting from enjoying the benefits of your "holy estate."

I find that disgusting, no matter how you dress it up. You can put all the pretty lipstick on it that you want. It's still a pig.
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 490
Prop 8 is bigotry
Posted: 11/3/2008 3:14:04 PM

How do you define justice amusinglisa?

Honey, I have a degree in philosophy and could go on for 20 pages about justice, but the definition of justice requires objectivity. Since you claim that your "religious freedom" trumps everything else on the planet, there is no way you can be objective.

I can actually see why two consenting adults would find value, comfort and safety in a legally recognized relationship that entails ALL the benefits to which married couples are entitled, but I am reasonably certain that you will reply that your "right" to your "religious freedom" (what exactly does that MEAN??) is more important.

Tax Benefits

* Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.
* Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.

Estate Planning Benefits

* Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.
* Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.
* Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.
* Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse’s behalf.

Government Benefits

* Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.
* Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.
* Receiving public assistance benefits.

Employment Benefits

* Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.
* Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.
* Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.
* Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse’s close relatives dies.

Medical Benefits

* Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.
* Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.

Death Benefits

* Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.
* Making burial or other final arrangements.

Family Benefits

* Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.
* Applying for joint foster care rights.
* Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.
* Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.

Housing Benefits

* Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."
* Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.

Consumer Benefits

* Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.
* Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.
* Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.

Other Legal Benefits and Protections

* Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).
* Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).
* Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can’t force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.
* Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
* Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.
* Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 491
on the rights to a word
Posted: 11/3/2008 3:18:07 PM
You know, I named my daughter with the most beautiful name I had ever heard. It is her and she is her name and there is nothing on earth like her. Someone in a childbirth class asked what we planned to name her and loved the name so much, they named their daughter that. I was chagrined, but that has not changed who my daughter is by one little bit AND I realize (as a responsible and rational adult) that I have no hold over her name -- or any other word.

I guess if your sandcastle needs its name to be sacred to you, you'll have to be like the Jews who do not pronounce the name of that which they hold most dear. Just keep it a secret, honey. There you go.
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 494
Prop 8 is bigotry
Posted: 11/3/2008 4:34:30 PM

Do you consider yourself a feminist amusinglisa?

Why? would that restrict your "religious freedom"?

Perhaps that would disqualify me as a "woman" according to your interpretation of your bible, so prop 8 would mean that I could not marry anyone?
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 495
Prop 8 is bigotry
Posted: 11/3/2008 4:54:13 PM
OMG! The John Birch Society is still around? Amazing!!!

I keep my copy of their Blue Book right next to my copy of Chairman Mao's Little Red Book.


Hey K. Do you know what the word "no" means? Seriously. I looked at the cases you cited and concluded that your coreligionists had a choice. They could abide by the law that requires us all to provide equal access to public accommodations or close up shop. They chose to close up shop. I feel that that is a tragic outcome, but if I were to run an illegal business in defiance of the law, I would expect to be confronted with that same set of options at a minimum.

It is their bigotry that closed them down, not the fact that they were confronted on it. They chose to shut down their service rather than get over it. They're free to make that choice, regrettable though the results may be.

So here is a case where I have considered your claims and concluded that they are groundless. I have not dismissed them. If the rights of those church leaders and business owners to practice their religion were violated, I would be all over it.

Now, I'm not clear on the story about the Canadian priest, but if his right to free speech is being violated because someone is disgusted by his bigotry, that is completely unconscionable and I'm with you on that one. He has every right to be as bigoted as he wants to be, and to say so. If he is not advocating that others do bodily harm to fellow human beings, as far as I'm concerned he can spew all day and night.

One of the reasons I'm not clear about that story is that I don't find the John Birch Society to be a very credible source. Why not? I've read their book. It makes about as much sense as the Marxist idea that we should depose all the competent people and turn the government over to ignorant ideologues.

Wait, that's not what you're suggesting we do tomorrow is it?
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 498
Heads up
Posted: 11/3/2008 6:37:07 PM

The real deal seems to be that some of those who participate in seeking gay rights are indulging themselves in a socially acceptable chance to express hatred against devote Christian belief systems.

I don't hate Christianity. I do hate bigotry dressed up as Christianity though.

And yes, I can tell the difference. Can you, K?
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 499
view profile
Heads up
Posted: 11/3/2008 6:43:34 PM
Mominatrix, you have my permission to continue calling me "Sweetie". I promise that I won't turn you in to the PC police OR to Gloria Steinem.

Back to the Original Topic, I will be voting against Prop 8, as I have always voted, and will so long as I live, against bigotry and prejudice in whatever guise it raises it's ugly head.

I have no problem with the devoutly religious proselytizing and attempting to propagate their cult's particular version of "truth". I spent 21 years defending the right to Free Speech in this country, and that Constitutional guarantee is something I hold dear.

By the same token, I reserve the right to hold to my own beliefs, and among those is the premise put forth in the Preamble to the Constitution that "All "men" (by that the signers meant by extension, all of Humanity....all men and women....regardless of age, sexual orientation, skin color, and religious preference. Civil unions by definition are in the domain of society (read: Government) to define, not some religious cult. A civil union for any and all MUST provide equal protections and benefits.
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 501
Prop 8 is bigotry
Posted: 11/3/2008 7:06:55 PM
"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)

I will be able to hold my head up to my children (and their children if they choose or are blessed with them) because I choose to speak up now, before "they" "come" for anyone else...

Vote NO on H8

Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 502
H8 is bigotry
Posted: 11/3/2008 7:14:22 PM

The real deal seems to be that some of those who participate in seeking gay rights are indulging themselves in a socially acceptable chance to express hatred against devote Christian belief systems

I have not seen anyone display contempt for any belief system, only for the actions of those who profess to those belief systems and the views they are expressing.

Like I tell my kids: "If you are doing something you think you might not like people to know or comment about, that is your conscience and you probably ought to consider another course of action that might make you feel more comfortable in the cold light of day."

(my kids have big vocabularies)

No on H8

Kater, have you yet found a single case of damage to a family marriage or individual from any or all of the thousands of gay marriages that are already in place???


Have you given up?

I thought they would be so rampant, what with all the weddings in the last few months...
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 503
view profile
H8 is bigotry
Posted: 11/3/2008 7:31:09 PM
K might have meant "devoted", just dropped the final "d" in all of the religious fervor.

Now, I live in a small mountain town in Central California. Not exactly a hotbed of "gay" activism. I have yet to see errant bands of gays roaming the streets, seeking to force their beliefs on the "straight" population. Sadly, I haven't noticed any lesbian activity in the public market, either (yeah, yeah...I'm a guy...."ummm...can I watch?")

Living life and loving whom you wish (and how you wish) is what this country, and it's Constitution, are all about. If you deny civil rights and the protection of law to ANY group, then, as AmusingLisa pointed out, we are doomed to be silenced by whichever political/religious group we allow to sieze power.
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 505
H8 is bigoted
Posted: 11/3/2008 8:30:39 PM
The preservation of American ideals and the Christian religion depends upon the early creation in the children of this nation a reverence for and an undying faith in God's Holy Word.

Sound familiar?



"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)

No on H8
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 506
Heads up
Posted: 11/3/2008 8:36:58 PM

The gang mentality that is going on against Kate is something that I found quite often in the political forum where I often post.

I don't think it's a gang mentality so much as it is a reaction to what each of us individually perceives as an unconsciously bigoted viewpoint. If someone said the things she's saying about interracial marriage, she herself would be up in arms about it.

I admire her stamina, but her quotes from Frieri about humility seem to apply to everyone else but her. Her position is not reasonable, yet she clings to it and cites religious authority or tradition as the basis for her refusal to listen. When confronted on that, she intrerprets it as an attack upon her religion. It's not an attack on her religion, it is an attack on her unreasonableness. How many times must we cite examples where relying on tradition has led to terrible oppression for her to recognize that it might not be all of us ganging up on her. It might simply be that she is in the wrong on this issue? When she can admit the possibility that she might be in error, we can have a civil conversation. I am willing to admit the possibility that I am in error on this, but again, when I ask for some sort of reasoned argument that cites some evidence, what I get back is the same nonsense people used to spew about why people with black skin could never be considered equal.

You yourself had the good sense to realize that there was another way to look at it and chose to refrain from casting a wrong vote. I admire that. When K becomes willing to consider another view beside the one she has chosen to champion, I will stop confronting her with the fallacies and risks associated with that view. It's really that simple.
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 508
H8 is bigoted
Posted: 11/3/2008 9:08:23 PM

Lisa, You see, I don't see that as a bad thing to have an undying faith in God's word. Perhaps in your world it would be, and I respect that.

Where did you get that impression? Because I have not brought my faith and/or belief system into this, am I automatically considered to be chastising people for having faith themselves?

I am simply stating that if one wishes to use "the bible" as their basis for dictating policy and law, they will find themselves in less-then-savory company.

In my opinion.
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 510
H8 is bigoted
Posted: 11/3/2008 9:31:19 PM
How about go after divorce AND abusive spouses.
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 515
H8 is bigoted
Posted: 11/3/2008 10:02:38 PM

There are Christians who face court charges for being Christian. There are Christians being accused of hate speech. mean the ones who are refusing to treat people fairly because of their sexual orientation...?


that would be because a hate crime is defined as: "A hate crime, also known as a bias crime, is a criminal offense committed against a person, property, or society that is motivated, in whole or in part, by the offender’s bias against a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, or ethnicity/national origin."

You aren't actually saying that people are being charged for being a christian, they are being charged for choosing to act in a way that harms someone because of their sexual orientation.

These dedicated Christians are not hanging gay people in trees--they simply disagree--and there is no harm in a having a thought, a belief, even if it does not match everyone else's...

You don't have to hang anyone in trees to commit an act of bias, but if there are laws that state that there is a group of people who are not worthy of marital rights, it isn't such a leap to then take away the same group's right to work, then their right to live where they wish. Have you not read any part of the history of the rising of Nazi-ism? First you take away one small thing -- "I mean, of course it's OK to discriminate on this one thing -- that's what my religion says we have to do"... Once you have established a second class citizen, you can go right ahead with the whole segregation thing. Right?

How can you expect anyone to take you seriously if you insist that removing someone's civil rights is the only way you can sleep at night???

And you still have not given a SINGLE example of what harm could come to you or anyone else or any marriage or any family because of any one or all of the gay marriages that are already in place. Not one.

Funny how your perception of danger doesn't have any actual danger involved...

if your "fire" is so "hot" -- please, just give us one example, no matter how small it might be, but please be sure that there is damage caused by a gay marriage and not someone being an @$$ about someone else's private life.
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 517
H8 is bigoted
Posted: 11/3/2008 10:06:07 PM

No Lisa, I am not making any assumption about your personal belief system at all actually, I was acknowledging that I have no knowledge of it, sorry if it came out wrong.

You make no assumption by saying

Lisa, You see, I don't see that as a bad thing to have an undying faith in God's word. Perhaps in your world it would be, and I respect that.


*shakes her head*

This is like "can't you take a joke?", right?
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 519
oppressive objectification
Posted: 11/3/2008 10:17:36 PM

I will not be objectified into being a zealous religious tool so that you can gain influence in a political position

No one has to identify (not objectify, for heavens' sake) you as being a religious zealot, Kater, you are doing a great job of that all by yourownself.

*to "objectify" anything into something else, one would have be giving an abstract notion a form that can be understood by others. Not what is going on here. some might wish you were abstract, but there is that whole "understood by others" thing...
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 521
H8 is bigoted
Posted: 11/3/2008 10:25:45 PM
Willis, if I may:


Kat is very much into protect civil rights concerning blacks & women, and has a strong interest in the rights of pregnant teens, the homeless, orphans, prisoners as well as a mild interest in the rights of Native Americans. In this forum, she is quick to side with protecting the rights of blacks and women and it should be noted that she is part-black, a woman....& straight(!!!). She's civil to the point where she both gets to exist freely but still deny the rights of others.

Better? No mind reading here. Just a statement.
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 527
H8 is bigoted
Posted: 11/3/2008 10:34:52 PM

Ok, now may I define you in public to gain Yes votes on 8? You did it to me, now can I do it to you?

Would it be on-topic?

That is not at all who I am.

That is exactly who you said you are. I cut and pasted it from your very own words, darlin'.
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