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 AUTHOR
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 38
Why should I believe in aliens?Page 2 of 14    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14)
>>>Actually this statement is wrong. The government admitted to creating “Project Blue Book” who’s primary goal was to debunk UFO claims not encourage them.

Uhh, no- do you honestly think having a list of potiential Secret Jet witnesses come forward and explain what they saw would somehow be something the Government wouldn't be interested in?

And wasn't over 9/10 of the sightings in Blue Book found to be hoaxes or misunderstandings? Thats your evidence- that a vast majority of claims people make over sighting alien crafts were found to be dead wrong?

>>>For those of us with personal experience, the question has already been answered.

As I've said in other threads- you aren't appealing for evidence- you don't need evidence- you have something far greater in your mind- faith. You are creating a religion around aliens.

>>>For those who claim it is impossible to travel to other planets or galaxies, I would just like to point out that a mere couple of hundred years ago it was claimed to be impossible to travel to the moon. A couple of more hundred years ago and it was claimed the world was flat and it was impossible for humans to fly. Now lets move forward in time a couple of hundred years, or thousand years, how about a million years. Do you still think it is impossible to travel to other planets or galaxies.

I'm assuming you meant "Solar Systems" and not Galaxies, as the distance between Solar Systems is immense, and the distance between Galaxies is unimaginable.

But, nonetheless, our conclusions based on whether the world was flat, whether it was impossible to fly, and whether it was impossible to reach the moon- these conclusions were not based on any actual observations- they were done on assumptions- on faith. If something happens to our understanding of the universe that explains how we can travel the universe at such a great speed, I would gladly change my view- but not before. You claim that our previous mistakes, such as believing the world is flat, is based on our methods- the scientific one- and it wasn't. We concluded that the world is flat the same way you conclude the universe has alien life in our skies;

"Why Not?"
 god_of_rock
Joined: 1/17/2009
Msg: 39
Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/11/2009 9:31:32 AM

>If they are no aliens, it's a colossal waste of space.


as you could say the Pacific and Atlantic oceans are a colossal waste ofspace on a smaller scale, on earth?

even if there ARE aliens on some planets hundreds of light-years away from us, it is still a 'colossal waste of space'..they could have been 'placed' much closer to us ?
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 41
Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/24/2009 5:12:00 PM
>>>To say that we're the only form of intelligent life is pretty ignorant in my books.

Huh?

Why? To say that the universe MUST have a meaning, and MUST be teeming with life- why is that somehow an action one must take to not be ignorant?

The Solar System is huge, and most of it is a colossal waste of space, completely empty- is it ignorant to accept this fact? Even the parts of our solar system that have landmasses- planets and astroids- there area with life on it is the vast majority- compared to Jupiter alone, its volume can fit 1,317 Earths, and 318 times as massive, with its diameter fitting 11 earths- is it ignorant to think that it is devoid of life, because it is really, really big? And thats just one planet, in one solar system- you wish to make decrees over the entire Galatic body, without so much as a shread of evidence- just that the universe must have a meaning, because it must.

The universe has nothing to justify itself to you, and ironically its incredibly ignorant to say its ignorant to not accept there is life in the universe because its a waste of space.
 Phoebus2k9
Joined: 3/15/2008
Msg: 43
Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/26/2009 8:12:24 AM
Check this out....UFO already been to the white house lol....


http://www.informantnews.com/brief/dc52flap.html
 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 44
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Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/26/2009 2:16:30 PM
While I don't think that "belief" in extraterrestrial life is mandatory, it seems logical and rational to assume that there likely is life elsewhere, if we also assume, as science apparently does, that life on Earth was and is a happy accident (happy for us, that is). So for those who don't believe life was created by some deity, it's perfectly rational to assume life exists wherever it can gain a foothold- as persistent as mold on bread, life may infest whatever and wherever it can.
Extrapolating from that assumption, one might assume that ever more complex creatures might evolve over time wherever life has infested planets or other suitable "loaves of bread," and that intelligence might become a suitable survival trait on many of such infested "loaves."
We can further infer that suitable technologies may be devised by such intelligences, and that eventually we may, through some artificially-devised process, communicate with other such "beings," for the purpose of- I don't know, validating our own existence...?

With respect to interstellar travel, I can't see that as ever being an activity undertaken as casually as a trip to the Grand Canyon, for example, as, apparently, many "believers" in "UFOs"* do.
(*The term "UFO," for "Unidentified Flying Object" would, therefore, be inappropriate. An interstellar spacecraft inhabited by extraterrestrial beings would be an "Identified Flying Object, or "IFO"- or, more accurately, an "ISI," for "Interstellar Spacecraft, Inhabited," and a drone or robot craft would be an "ISU" for "Interstellar Spacecraft, Uninhabited." Don't get me started on Cylons.)

I think it's interesting that Cylons believe in God, while many astronomers don't. I personally don't believe in Cylons, but I'm willing to let a Six or an Eight try to persuade me otherwise.
 Soul Union
Joined: 6/9/2007
Msg: 45
Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/26/2009 6:46:34 PM

The universe is a pretty big place, with millions of stars and planets. If they are no aliens, it's a colossal waste of space. - Mominatrix


I'm with Mom.

There are billions of stars and galaxies, and to think that this primitive, war-torn, blood-sodden, diseased hole of a corner of space has the only life is simply burying your head in the sand. Even ostriches have the sense not to do that.

- Peter
 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 46
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Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/27/2009 8:27:59 AM
What we know about life is what we have observed on Earth- that life is persistent and pervasive. Living things exist from Antarctica to the Arctic, from the bottom of the Marianas Trench to the stratosphere, in boiling water in undersea vents and in volcanic calderas, in the coldest places on Earth. Some bacteria thrive in the complete lack of oxygen; it seems the only thing absolutely required for some kind of life to exist is liquid water. That really enhances the chances for life to exist elsewhere.
From all the examples we have knowledge of- Planet Earth- life arises spontaneously in the presence of water and organic compounds. From that example I think we can reasonably assume that life is not the exception, but rather the rule.
I think that's not necessarily a good thing. We would have no immunity to ET diseases, and if we ever become an interstellar spacefaring race, that's likely to be more a hazard to us than Klingon battle cruisers or Cylon base stars.
 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 48
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Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/27/2009 8:53:55 PM

Yes , life seems to be very tenacious but first it has to get started which is really the crux of the matter. It only takes one spark to light a barrel of gasoline on fire and it won't be easy to extinguish. No spark means no fire though.
The "primordial soup" experiment in 1953 used simulated lightning to synthesize (create) amino acids from methane. That's your "spark," literally.

From 1995-

http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SUA02/primordial_soup.php


LA JOLLA- In a simulation of the days when the Earth was covered in primordial ooze, researchers at the University of California, San Diego have synthesized pantetheine, an ingredient considered essential for the development of life on the planet.

The nature of the origin of life remains one of the most intriguing questions in biology. Researchers at the University of California, San Diego's Specialized Center of Research and Training in Exobiology are approaching the question by simulating environmental conditions as they are thought to have existed in "prebiotic" times. The researchers are studying the abiotic synthesis of biomolecules to determine which ones could have been present on Earth before life arose and, thus, may have been important to the first living organisms.

The UCSD research team is led by Dr. Stanley Miller. Dr. Miller is well known for his 'primordial soup' experiment conducted in 1953. At that time he demonstrated that amino acids could be formed by passing an electric current through a flask of methane. This suggested that life could have arisen from materials and conditions present in early Earth history.

Dr. Miller believes many other chemicals in addition to amino acids would have to have been present to facilitate the transition to living organisms. In particular, the presence of pantetheine could have enhanced the transition process. Pantetheine is related to coenzyme A, an essential component for protein formation. Coenzyme A is used by every known organism to assist in a wide variety of chemical reactions and it is possible that in the very earliest organisms this role was played by pantetheine alone, notes Miller.

In their recent experiment, the UCSD scientists heated a mixture of pantoyl lactone, beta- alanine and cysteamine at 40 degrees C (105 degrees F). All three chemicals are believed to have been present on the early Earth. Among the other chemicals formed was pantetheine. This suggests pantetheine could have been created at the margins of evaporating pools of water in prebiotic times.

"These components are extremely soluble and so would have been preferentially concentrated in evaporating bodies of water, for example on beaches and at lagoon margins. Our results show that amide bonds can be formed at temperatures as low as 40 degrees C, and provide circumstantial support for the suggestion that pantetheine and coenzyme A were important in the earliest metabolic systems," noted Miller.

There are two main hypotheses regarding the prebiotic synthesis of coenzymes. One, the "RNA world" hypothesis, holds that coenzymes were part of the covalent structure of RNA, and assisted in the RNA-based metabolism. Another hypothesis suggests that the RNA world was preceded by a thioester world. According to that hypothesis, coenzyme A played an essential role in the activation of amino acids and hydroxy acids in peptide synthesis.

The research provides evidence for the presence of an important ingredient in the original soup of life. It has been demonstrated that amino acids can form abiotically in a number of ways and are used by modern organisms for the manufacture of proteins. Sugars, however, which are components of modern genetic materials such as DNA or RNA are thought to be too unstable to have been widespread on Earth before life arose. Another of the remaining "big questions" is how and when did non-living molecules turn into life forms and begin to make copies of themselves.
Yes, I really do think life is every bit as common and as persistent as bread mold.
 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 50
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Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/28/2009 12:55:07 PM
Okay, let's look at this from a strictly financial point of view.
Someone mentioned Australia. Well, I can visit Australia- I mean, the infrastructure exists, I can book a flight (or a cruise) there, and the cost is within my budget, if i don't buy groceries next month- uh, make that 3 months. I think the travel cost would be something like 10-20 cents a mile, so, on a cost-per-mile basis, a trip to Australia is no more expensive for me than a trip to the Grand Canyon.
Now let's compare a trip to Luna (aka "the Moon"). The cost-per-mile is actually a lot more expensive, but let's say we can do it for 20 cents a mile- that's about $95,000 for a round trip. I'll need to pick up a few sample rocks to sell on eBay to pay for the trip; that works until the market is flooded with tourist "Moon Rocks." I don't think ET is funding his Earth vacation selling cow kidneys on the ET eBay franchise.
Now, let's say that there is an interesting little inhabited planet reasonably close- say, 10 light years. Let's say GM has finally seen the light and has begun manufacturing personal starships (sort of like interstellar RVs) at affordable prices, using some of that Area 51 tech the government has been hoarding. Keeping the 20 cents per mile cost, figuring the round trip cost for 10 light years is- about 11 Trillion dollars? (Feel free to check the math, I did that in a hurry, it looks cheap to me).

Yeah, they need to be getting MUCH better mileage than my Buick.

Actually, I can see this turned into a sitcom- oh wait, they did that in the 60s with "Zorro" and "Timmy's Mom"- "Lost in Space..."
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 51
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Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 2:05:35 AM

>>> please prove to me and every one else here that they don't exist???

Not required, and fallacious reasoning. Since there's no tangible evidence for their existence, and no circumstances which require their existence as an explanation, there's nothing to disprove.

The claims of tangible evidence have alternate viable explanations [or are simply false]. Most "evidence" is non-tangible and unsubstantiable anecdotes. The bulk of the rest is circular reasoning [aliens explains the lights in the sky; lights in the sky prove there are aliens].
 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 52
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Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 10:52:36 AM
If there is no other life in the Universe- or no other life we could interact with in any reasonable timeframe- then that means the Universe is ours for the taking, and that all the wealth that exists out there is ours to use and enjoy. There are no rules but the ones we set for ourselves, and no one else we have to share with. That means we can strip-mine Luna ("the Moon"), terraform Mars to our liking, sequestrate the atmosphere of Venus and rearrange the Moons of Jupiter as we please, as the technologies to do these things become available. More to the point, it now becomes economically viable to develop them.
It should be possible to ravage the surface of Luna for whatever minerals we need, refining ore with solar energy. From Luna we can launch interplanetary expeditions to other planets, exploiting them as we desire, all the while enriching we humans, who have no competition anywhere in the Universe.
It's Manifest Destiny that we should own and rule the stars, because no one is there to oppose us.

HOWEVER-

We may wish to tread more lightly if we're not alone.
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 53
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Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 12:05:59 PM

Arguing with a non-believer is like yelling at the sky. Pointless and a waste of energy.


There's no arguing required. All you have to do is produce some verifiable, even-vaguely-convincing evidence. If' that's "pointless and a waste of time" to you, then we know where the problem lies.
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 54
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Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 12:32:27 PM
Science never showed that the Earth was flat. In fact, it showed the opposite, over 2000 years ago.

The scientific method is the only objective method of providing explanations which work. Explanations achieved through this method can be verified by anyone, because the methods, materials, conclusions, and logic are all laid out for anyone to examine and repeat. It's not feasible for any one person to verify even a tiny fraction of all science, so it's a given that it will usually be taken "on faith". However, because scientific conclusions are designed to be consistent and predictable, a single false claim can easily be discovered when 1000 more studies fail.

The first conclusion becomes an assumption for many things to follow. If the assumption is wrong, the results won't go as expected. If a manufacturer claims a shelf will hold 1000 kilograms [a scientific claim based on knowledge of the properties of the materials, and their shapes and structures], and you later create an experiment using these shelves... If they collapse at 500 kg, you will have obvious questions:
1) did I make a mistake?
2) was this coincidence? did I repeat the experiment enough times to reasonably rule out bad luck?
3) were my initial beliefs wrong?
Those are pretty standard questions for unexpected results, so trusting in scientific conclusions isn't simply a matter of faith. It's a matter of synergistic evidence.

Some of us are actually pretty good at not only reading and understanding the science, but at understanding how many fields are interdependant.

Believing in "aliens", in the sense of sapient extraterrestrial visitors to this planet, is not supported by any evidence. Believing in extraterrestrial life of ANY sort, is supported by chemistry, physics, and astronomy. The conditions and requirements for life seem to be broad and common, and life itself would seem to be an almost inevitable result of complex chemistry.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 56
Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 1:35:29 PM
@ Irespire

Until extraterrestrials land on the White House lawn, I shall not believe in them.


I thought it was our extraterrestrial masters who get elected & LIVE in the White House. In any event, it's best not to believe in them!javascript:smilie('')
 Soul Union
Joined: 6/9/2007
Msg: 57
Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 2:24:18 PM
Some of us are actually pretty good at not only reading and understanding the science, but at understanding how many fields are interdependant. [sic] Believing in "aliens", in the sense of sapient extraterrestrial visitors to this planet, is not supported by any evidence. - FrogO eyes


Conventional wisdom.

- Peter
 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 59
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Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 10:43:40 PM

Until extraterrestrials land on the White House lawn, I shall not believe in them.
So it doesn't count if they show up at Walmart?
You assume they would know the difference?
Wouldn't it make more sense for them to land where they find lots of pickup trucks in the parking lot?
 EyeoftheStorm
Joined: 1/4/2009
Msg: 60
Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/30/2009 2:19:50 AM
I don't believe aliens are visiting the Earth, but when one considers the infinite vastness of the Universe, how can one possibly believe there is no other life out there? They have found lifeforms on our own planet at the bottoms of the oceans that exist without any of the conditions we previously thought were required to sustain life, so why not in outer space? I find it awfully arrogant and close-minded to think we alone are the epitome of natural selection and evolution.
 Phoebus2k9
Joined: 3/15/2008
Msg: 61
Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/30/2009 4:59:01 AM
Well like i have said before....

We just may...be looking for them at them with the wrong idea...sure we look on radio freq and with our limited vision, yet if they are running at a much higher light range then we can see. Im sure we dont have the technology to see beyond UV. I know NASA using a UV filter for the cameras out there...now why would they be using that kinda filter instead of a regualr lens? What are they looking for ...
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 62
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Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/30/2009 7:39:41 AM

Im sure we dont have the technology to see beyond UV.

Wrong. For example: http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/cgro/index.html and http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/chandra/main/index.html


I know NASA using a UV filter for the cameras out there...now why would they be using that kinda filter instead of a regualr lens? What are they looking for ...

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Try not to hurt yourself.
 Phoebus2k9
Joined: 3/15/2008
Msg: 63
Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/30/2009 7:47:20 AM
Well i was more less talking about shuttle cameras. See there are many other forms of light im sure if we were able to use with binoculars with these filters would be very cool to see what would be around us. Something that would allow us to change filters...like a buttone for UV and one for X-ray and so on...that would be very cool...or at least a Camera that goes such things...

Like what the hell was in the Tether video on youtube ? from Nasa cameras ? there are many videos like that ....not sure but i would really love to be able to see those things and see if i can still see them with or without the camera that has the filter
 observer902
Joined: 1/13/2009
Msg: 64
Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/30/2009 10:44:48 AM
While I don't know if aliens exists or not, I don't think any have ever visitedEarth if they do. The distances are too vast, and known science doesn't support any method of traversing that distance economincally. So for me aliens encounters exists within the confines of sci-fi fiction, and Hollywood blockbusters.
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 65
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Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/30/2009 6:58:58 PM
See there are many other forms of light


Not really. Light is just photons, with frequencies depending on the amount of energy they carry. We see many frequencies of light - red, orange, yellow, green, blue, violet...our eyes even detect ultraviolet. The lens of our eye filters out UV, much like lead blocks x-rays or black paper blocks "visible" light. Many animals can see UV. Some can see, or at least detect, infrared. Infrared, ultraviolet, x-rays - it's all just light.

Outside of the visible frequencies, our eyes simply lack the pigments sensitive to higher or lower frequencies. Our eyes have two basic types of vision cells. One type contains pigments which react to a wide range of frequencies. Any visible color affects the chemical, sending a signal along the nerve. Brighter light, more signals. The other type contains color-sensitive chemicals. Many animals; including most mammals, don't have these, and only see in black, white, and gray. Our color cells have three versions, each with a different pigment. Each pigment reacts only to a limited color range: red, green, or blue. They are less sensitive, requiring more light of that color to get a reaction. In the deep UV, infrared, x-rays, or other "colors", none of these chemicals reacts, so this...

im sure if we were able to use with binoculars with these filters would be very cool to see what would be around us.

wouldn't work. What the filters on cameras do, is BLOCK the colors we don't want to see. Both digital and film cameras have different sensitivities from our eyes - they can detect frequencies we don't, but they SHOW these with visible colors. Typically, ultraviolet is shown as violet, and infrared as green. This also depends on the type of lens - standard glass blocks UV, quartz doesn't. Glass can block IR, but a piece of black film lets it through. Block what we DON'T want, such as visible light, and the camera will only show us what is left. None of this would work with binoculars because binoculars only magnify light, they don't react to it. It's still up to our eyes to detect and identify what passes through.

We're blind to most frequencies, but it's very easy to create machines and film [like x-ray film] which detect these frequencies and record them as images we CAN see.

Of course, what this means is, a camera, or an electronic scope can be created to do this. You can pick up a "cheap" soviet IR or UV night scope for a couple hundred bucks. This is ancient technology of far inferior quality to current military types. If you want to experiment, you can "see" IR with a $20 webcam. Take the lens out and cut a piece of black photographic film to fit. Voila - IR camera. How-to instructions are easily found online. A standard SLR camera can often be adjusted to record IR just by altering the settings and using black and white or IR film. Other wavelengths are harder to see, mainly because they're uncommon. Enough x-rays to affect a film image, is dangerous. It's one thing when it's controlled by the dentist, quite another for it to be constant environmental exposure. UV is good for night vision because there's a steady but small supply of UV from the sky at night [the night sky is never actually black, is it?], and visible light is MUCH less. Even so, the scopes have to magnify the UV and brighten the resulting image. IR works because everything emits heat. The warmer an object is, compared to the background, the brighter it appears on an IR scope. Mammals, birds, and engines can be VERY warm, so this is great for military or biological surveillance. Other frequencies are commonly used for various applications, often including astronomy. Radio waves are light, thus the use of radio telescopes. COBE and SETI also use other frequencies. You can see the results of those online, but you will see them in color or hear them as audio, because you simply can't see x-rays, UV, IR, or radio frequencies.
 Phoebus2k9
Joined: 3/15/2008
Msg: 66
Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/31/2009 5:34:08 AM
See that is great....i was just using the binoculars as an example but it could very well be any type of system that will allow the capture of the image in those other light frequencies. NOw what i wonder is how many other frequencies of light there really is. I mean there are the ones we are aware of , however how many more forms of light can there be ? I mean really think about what we dont know about light and the frequencies spectrum that there could be ?? Its interesting because we only look at or for what we already know not what we dont. Well that is of course silly to try and look at frequencies we dont know how or why would we when we dont know they exist ? Having a open mind and hopefully finding it by mistake would be great.

This all makes it even more interesting cause now think about how communications are done by light frequencies....there very well could be communications being done over frequencies we dont even know about. So right under our nose there could be this vast line of info we are never aware of.

We are to busy sitting around on what we know to work and what we know to be in our grasp. I would hope one day we can develop the Technology for such mind opening stuff. I know alot of ppl say dont have your mind to open ..brain could fall out..well maybe that might work...could be better off without it lol...to much ego
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 67
Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/31/2009 5:46:40 AM
I had forgot how relaxing it is to let others beat some sense into these people....

Good job Funcuz, frog, and fiddler....keep it up!
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 68
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Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/31/2009 7:43:45 AM
Here's your free "Clue Du Jour®"

There are no frequencies of light we don't know about.

One of the beauties of an education is that it lets you focus your "open-mindedness" on the interesting stuff, instead of wasting it on boring and mundane stuff like the EM spectrum, because you know how mundane and boring it is: http://www.e-builds.com/EM%20spectrum/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum
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