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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Why should I believe in aliens?      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 Soul Union
Joined: 6/9/2007
Msg: 101
Why should I believe in aliens?Page 5 of 14    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14)
Some of us are actually pretty good at not only reading and understanding the science, but at understanding how many fields are interdependant. [sic] Believing in "aliens", in the sense of sapient extraterrestrial visitors to this planet, is not supported by any evidence. - FrogO eyes


Conventional wisdom.

- Peter
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 102
Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 6:49:01 PM

Conventional wisdom.

- Peter


Also, defensible logic. Let's say I show up one day to a UFO/Alien Abduction Convention and say I've got a gray alien in my trunk. I open it up and there's nothing there. I argue, but of course he's there. Can't you see it? You must not belief well enough that aliens exist. C'mon, he's right there? Can't see him? Well then, he must be hiding. You can't prove he's not there.

I wonder what would happen?
 Funcuz
Joined: 1/16/2009
Msg: 103
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Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 8:59:53 PM

Lifeforms that exist on other planets are always much more advanced than we are and almost certainly much more benevolent than we are.

How do you know ? Been travelling around the galaxy ?
Even if you could actually travel across the universe , you'd still be wrong though. Unless you believe that advanced and benevolent civilizations can just spring up out rocks or something.

So mankind is evil and needs some advanced species to travel trillions of miles through space to come and fix our problems and help us become more advanced like they are.

If you say so.
I really don't understand why some folks are so eager to write humanity off as some sort of global pestilence. We're not perfect but that doesn't make us all galactic trash either.

What are the odds that another species with the wherewithall to travel through space with the same ease as we drive to the neighbourhood Walmart will have the enormous generosity to fix all our problems and make us all better people? Damned slim odds if you ask me.
Besides, if they find out anything about our religion, they will hear about a guy who was supposed to be the child of our precious god who came to earth and wanted us all to be nice to each other and be better people and we nailed him to a cross.
I'd think that wouldn't be much incentive to stop at this planet and to keep going looking for intelligent life in our universe. (Good luck with that fellas)

Yeah...there it is again ; That's the same old "We're not worthy of anything but contempt and a quick death" nonsense. Who's to say that if there are other advanced civilizations running around the cosmos that they were any different at any point in their own evolution ? So often , those things that people think make us all so bad just happen to be the same things that got us to where we are today.
Frankly , I'm tired of that cliche about how humanity is so wretched that no advanced ET civilization would even slow down to wave on the way by. Do you guys even know why you think that way about mankind or is it just another one of those bandwagons that so many people love to jump on without actually thinking first ?
 Last not Least
Joined: 10/27/2007
Msg: 104
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Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 10:16:27 PM
Actually you didn't pick up on it but I was speaking from the mentality standpoint of the true believers. Perhaps your sarcasm meter is set too low to detect it.
It just seems that people have given up on religion as a means of salvation and look to the stars for some savior race to come and save us instead.
Don't look at me chum, I don't believe in any of this alien hooey. I think that if an alien race has nothing better to do than to anal probe hillbillies on earth and be voyeurs in the intimate details of we mere human beings, they couldn't be a whole lot more advanced if that is all they have to do with their enlightened minds.
 Funcuz
Joined: 1/16/2009
Msg: 105
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Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 10:25:17 PM
Ha ha...sorry. I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic or not and there was no clear tip off so I just figured you probably meant it. Thankfully for the human race, you don't and I thank you for it.
 Wayfaring_one
Joined: 5/25/2008
Msg: 106
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Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 10:35:53 PM

There's no arguing required. All you have to do is produce some verifiable, even-vaguely-convincing evidence.



The undeniable reality is that there are a substantial number of multi-sensor UFO cases backed by thousands of credible witnesses. In the physical domain there are many photos, videos, radar tracking, satellite sensor reports, landing traces including depressions and anomalous residual radiation, electromagnetic interference, and confirmed physiological effects. Personal observations have been made both day and night, often under excellent visibility with some at close range. Included are reports from multiple independent witnesses to the same event. Psychological testing of some observers has confirmed their mentally competence. Why is none of this considered evidence?

There are over 3000 cases reported by pilots, some of which include interference with flight controls. On numerous occasions air traffic controllers and other radar operators have noted unexplained objects on their scopes. So too have several astronomers and other competent scientists reported their personal observations. Many military officials from several countries have confirmed multi-sensor observations of UFOs. The most senior air defense officers of Russia, Brazil, Belgium and recently a former Chief of Naval Operations in Chile all have stated that UFOs are real. These cases and comments are a miniscule fraction of the total body of evidence.
 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 107
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Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 10:43:40 PM

Until extraterrestrials land on the White House lawn, I shall not believe in them.
So it doesn't count if they show up at Walmart?
You assume they would know the difference?
Wouldn't it make more sense for them to land where they find lots of pickup trucks in the parking lot?
 Funcuz
Joined: 1/16/2009
Msg: 108
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Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 11:01:59 PM

The undeniable reality is that there are a substantial number of multi-sensor UFO cases backed by thousands of credible witnesses. In the physical domain there are many photos, videos, radar tracking, satellite sensor reports, landing traces including depressions and anomalous residual radiation, electromagnetic interference, and confirmed physiological effects. Personal observations have been made both day and night, often under excellent visibility with some at close range. Included are reports from multiple independent witnesses to the same event. Psychological testing of some observers has confirmed their mentally competence. Why is none of this considered evidence?

There are over 3000 cases reported by pilots, some of which include interference with flight controls. On numerous occasions air traffic controllers and other radar operators have noted unexplained objects on their scopes. So too have several astronomers and other competent scientists reported their personal observations. Many military officials from several countries have confirmed multi-sensor observations of UFOs. The most senior air defense officers of Russia, Brazil, Belgium and recently a former Chief of Naval Operations in Chile all have stated that UFOs are real. These cases and comments are a miniscule fraction of the total body of evidence.

Okay...let's see it. If it's there then it can't be any sort of a problem to show it to us especially if there's so much of it from around the world. Undeniable and convincing evidence that UFO's from far-off worlds visit us....I've always wanted to see a genuine alien spacecraft so I can't wait to see them for the first time.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 9/17/2008
Msg: 109
Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 11:46:06 PM
UFO = unidentified flying object.... not extraterrestrial vehicle.

It could include but not be limited to weather phenomenon, classified government equipment, any number of misidentified mundane objects, meteors, the list goes on.

Why do we leap to the conclusion that it is an alien vehicle? Perhaps in some of the cases where well documented of UFO objects doing things that seem to defy what observers seem to see as normal physical laws...but even then... it's a leap to go from no evidence to a conclusion that one hopes for based on...what?

Fond hopes?
Conspiracy theory?

Usually a complete absence of corroboration to conclude that there is an extraterrestrial source.

UFO's are evidence of just that. Unidentified flying objects. They are unidentified. That's the problem. Call them aliens, you may as well call them faeries.
 REDDRAGON.
Joined: 10/9/2008
Msg: 110
Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/30/2009 12:03:13 AM
Not required, and fallacious reasoning. Since there's no tangible evidence for their existence, and no circumstances which require their existence as an explanation, there's nothing to disprove.


How is it not required ? kind of a cop out don't you think? ok like I'll just take your word for it.


Aliens don't exist every one.

let's delete this thread then..... MOVE along every one.... shoo it's all a big myth (that's why the government has spent thousands of dollars in research is because they like to wonder) scientists etc pointing their radio telescopes to the sky , satellites. I guess they don't believe either.

One of the oldest questions asked since man looked to the stars and wondered "Are We alone" has been solved RIGHT HERE on POF.
 EyeoftheStorm
Joined: 1/4/2009
Msg: 111
Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/30/2009 2:19:50 AM
I don't believe aliens are visiting the Earth, but when one considers the infinite vastness of the Universe, how can one possibly believe there is no other life out there? They have found lifeforms on our own planet at the bottoms of the oceans that exist without any of the conditions we previously thought were required to sustain life, so why not in outer space? I find it awfully arrogant and close-minded to think we alone are the epitome of natural selection and evolution.
 Funcuz
Joined: 1/16/2009
Msg: 112
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Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/30/2009 3:06:39 AM

How is it not required ? kind of a cop out don't you think? ok like I'll just take your word for it.


Aliens don't exist every one.

let's delete this thread then..... MOVE along every one.... shoo it's all a big myth (that's why the government has spent thousands of dollars in research is because they like to wonder) scientists etc pointing their radio telescopes to the sky , satellites. I guess they don't believe either.

One of the oldest questions asked since man looked to the stars and wondered "Are We alone" has been solved RIGHT HERE on POF.

That's not what he said. What he said was that if you don't know what you're looking at , you start with the most plausible explanation for what it could be and work your down. You don't start at the least likely explanation and then work your way up. If you lost your keys , would you start your search in China even though you've never been there nor even know anybody that's gone there since you noticed they were missing ? Probably not yet that's what some people do when they notice a big bright light in the sky. They start with the assumption that it's aliens and , should they ever get so far , end their search with the possibility it's the sun.
 Phoebus2k9
Joined: 3/15/2008
Msg: 113
Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/30/2009 4:59:01 AM
Well like i have said before....

We just may...be looking for them at them with the wrong idea...sure we look on radio freq and with our limited vision, yet if they are running at a much higher light range then we can see. Im sure we dont have the technology to see beyond UV. I know NASA using a UV filter for the cameras out there...now why would they be using that kinda filter instead of a regualr lens? What are they looking for ...
 Wayfaring_one
Joined: 5/25/2008
Msg: 114
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Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/30/2009 6:45:15 AM

Okay...let's see it. If it's there then it can't be any sort of a problem to show it to us especially if there's so much of it from around the world. Undeniable and convincing evidence that UFO's from far-off worlds visit us....I've always wanted to see a genuine alien spacecraft so I can't wait to see them for the first time.


There is nothing that anyone can say or do to convince someone who already has his mind made up about something. Your mind is closed to any and all evidence. You already have the answers.

Its like trying to convince someone the earth is round when he already has his mind made up that its flat. Nothing you can say or do will convince him otherwise.

Even if aliens landed on the white house lawn. Even if they took you for a ride on their wheels, you would still not be convinced.

The evidence is there for anyone to see. Mountains of it. Of course none of that matters to someone who has his eyes, ears, and mind closed.
 Wayfaring_one
Joined: 5/25/2008
Msg: 115
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Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/30/2009 6:46:48 AM
UFO's are evidence of just that. Unidentified flying objects. They are unidentified. That's the problem. Call them aliens, you may as well call them faeries.


You may believe they are faeries if you wish, thats your choice. I prefer a more rational, scientific explanation.

No one is makin conclusions here, that is something you don't get. We are discussing possibilities, or probabilities, based on evidence.
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 116
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Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/30/2009 7:39:41 AM

Im sure we dont have the technology to see beyond UV.

Wrong. For example: http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/cgro/index.html and http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/chandra/main/index.html


I know NASA using a UV filter for the cameras out there...now why would they be using that kinda filter instead of a regualr lens? What are they looking for ...

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Try not to hurt yourself.
 Phoebus2k9
Joined: 3/15/2008
Msg: 117
Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/30/2009 7:47:20 AM
Well i was more less talking about shuttle cameras. See there are many other forms of light im sure if we were able to use with binoculars with these filters would be very cool to see what would be around us. Something that would allow us to change filters...like a buttone for UV and one for X-ray and so on...that would be very cool...or at least a Camera that goes such things...

Like what the hell was in the Tether video on youtube ? from Nasa cameras ? there are many videos like that ....not sure but i would really love to be able to see those things and see if i can still see them with or without the camera that has the filter
 observer902
Joined: 1/13/2009
Msg: 118
Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/30/2009 10:44:48 AM
While I don't know if aliens exists or not, I don't think any have ever visitedEarth if they do. The distances are too vast, and known science doesn't support any method of traversing that distance economincally. So for me aliens encounters exists within the confines of sci-fi fiction, and Hollywood blockbusters.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 9/17/2008
Msg: 119
Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/30/2009 1:41:08 PM


You may believe they are faeries if you wish, thats your choice. I prefer a more rational, scientific explanation.

No one is makin conclusions here, that is something you don't get. We are discussing possibilities, or probabilities, based on evidence.


Aliens are no more scientific or rational than faeries, gods, demons, or invisible pink unicorns in this case. Russell's Teapot argument is the classic argument against this stuff. You have no evidence - tangible - or otherwise to make a case for any of the above so whatever you want to call it you can. I don't believe UFO sightings are E.T. related necessarily and I certainly think you calling them a more "rational scientific" explanation stretches the meanings of rational and scientific past their breaking points.

As to discussing probability or possibilities, the OP mentions nothing of the sort...you are pulling that bit over from another thread. This one is "Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?" and starts with a pretty skeptical OP. Or didn't you read the OP?

There are far better reasons to believe that UFO's are any host of other phenomenon...but they remain Unidentified flying Objects as the name defines...to leap to the conclusion that they are extraterrestrial in origin shows to me a credulousness that makes me want to start passing around phoney land deals and bridge bill of sales.



There is nothing that anyone can say or do to convince someone who already has his mind made up about something. Your mind is closed to any and all evidence. You already have the answers.

Its like trying to convince someone the earth is round when he already has his mind made up that its flat. Nothing you can say or do will convince him otherwise.

Even if aliens landed on the white house lawn. Even if they took you for a ride on their wheels, you would still not be convinced.

The evidence is there for anyone to see. Mountains of it. Of course none of that matters to someone who has his eyes, ears, and mind closed.


Now who is drawing conclusions?

This is a "straw-man" argument. When you cannot actually confront the real position of your opponent, don't wish to address their questions, make up a position or stance you want them to represent, usually your favorite boogey-man, and proceed to attack it vehemently to look like you are being active in the debate...when in fact, like Quixote, you are tilting at windmills.
 Funcuz
Joined: 1/16/2009
Msg: 120
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Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/30/2009 2:03:18 PM
^Thanks...that's more or less along the same lines as what I was going to say.

I've noticed that we can never just get a straight answer when we ask for evidence but we do get excuses about why we can't see it. Then , when all else fails , the "evidence" is presented and it , so far, proves to be utterly devoid of merit. If we can't get a straight answer to such a simple request (the request being "Show me please.") then we have to conclude that evidence of merit simply doesn't exist as of yet.

I'm not closed-minded , I pay attention to detail. It's a pretty big detail to believe in something extraordinary without having any basis for such a belief other than somebody's word.
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 121
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Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/30/2009 6:58:58 PM
See there are many other forms of light


Not really. Light is just photons, with frequencies depending on the amount of energy they carry. We see many frequencies of light - red, orange, yellow, green, blue, violet...our eyes even detect ultraviolet. The lens of our eye filters out UV, much like lead blocks x-rays or black paper blocks "visible" light. Many animals can see UV. Some can see, or at least detect, infrared. Infrared, ultraviolet, x-rays - it's all just light.

Outside of the visible frequencies, our eyes simply lack the pigments sensitive to higher or lower frequencies. Our eyes have two basic types of vision cells. One type contains pigments which react to a wide range of frequencies. Any visible color affects the chemical, sending a signal along the nerve. Brighter light, more signals. The other type contains color-sensitive chemicals. Many animals; including most mammals, don't have these, and only see in black, white, and gray. Our color cells have three versions, each with a different pigment. Each pigment reacts only to a limited color range: red, green, or blue. They are less sensitive, requiring more light of that color to get a reaction. In the deep UV, infrared, x-rays, or other "colors", none of these chemicals reacts, so this...

im sure if we were able to use with binoculars with these filters would be very cool to see what would be around us.

wouldn't work. What the filters on cameras do, is BLOCK the colors we don't want to see. Both digital and film cameras have different sensitivities from our eyes - they can detect frequencies we don't, but they SHOW these with visible colors. Typically, ultraviolet is shown as violet, and infrared as green. This also depends on the type of lens - standard glass blocks UV, quartz doesn't. Glass can block IR, but a piece of black film lets it through. Block what we DON'T want, such as visible light, and the camera will only show us what is left. None of this would work with binoculars because binoculars only magnify light, they don't react to it. It's still up to our eyes to detect and identify what passes through.

We're blind to most frequencies, but it's very easy to create machines and film [like x-ray film] which detect these frequencies and record them as images we CAN see.

Of course, what this means is, a camera, or an electronic scope can be created to do this. You can pick up a "cheap" soviet IR or UV night scope for a couple hundred bucks. This is ancient technology of far inferior quality to current military types. If you want to experiment, you can "see" IR with a $20 webcam. Take the lens out and cut a piece of black photographic film to fit. Voila - IR camera. How-to instructions are easily found online. A standard SLR camera can often be adjusted to record IR just by altering the settings and using black and white or IR film. Other wavelengths are harder to see, mainly because they're uncommon. Enough x-rays to affect a film image, is dangerous. It's one thing when it's controlled by the dentist, quite another for it to be constant environmental exposure. UV is good for night vision because there's a steady but small supply of UV from the sky at night [the night sky is never actually black, is it?], and visible light is MUCH less. Even so, the scopes have to magnify the UV and brighten the resulting image. IR works because everything emits heat. The warmer an object is, compared to the background, the brighter it appears on an IR scope. Mammals, birds, and engines can be VERY warm, so this is great for military or biological surveillance. Other frequencies are commonly used for various applications, often including astronomy. Radio waves are light, thus the use of radio telescopes. COBE and SETI also use other frequencies. You can see the results of those online, but you will see them in color or hear them as audio, because you simply can't see x-rays, UV, IR, or radio frequencies.
 Phoebus2k9
Joined: 3/15/2008
Msg: 122
Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/31/2009 5:34:08 AM
See that is great....i was just using the binoculars as an example but it could very well be any type of system that will allow the capture of the image in those other light frequencies. NOw what i wonder is how many other frequencies of light there really is. I mean there are the ones we are aware of , however how many more forms of light can there be ? I mean really think about what we dont know about light and the frequencies spectrum that there could be ?? Its interesting because we only look at or for what we already know not what we dont. Well that is of course silly to try and look at frequencies we dont know how or why would we when we dont know they exist ? Having a open mind and hopefully finding it by mistake would be great.

This all makes it even more interesting cause now think about how communications are done by light frequencies....there very well could be communications being done over frequencies we dont even know about. So right under our nose there could be this vast line of info we are never aware of.

We are to busy sitting around on what we know to work and what we know to be in our grasp. I would hope one day we can develop the Technology for such mind opening stuff. I know alot of ppl say dont have your mind to open ..brain could fall out..well maybe that might work...could be better off without it lol...to much ego
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 123
Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/31/2009 5:46:40 AM
I had forgot how relaxing it is to let others beat some sense into these people....

Good job Funcuz, frog, and fiddler....keep it up!
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 124
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Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/31/2009 7:43:45 AM
Here's your free "Clue Du Jour®"

There are no frequencies of light we don't know about.

One of the beauties of an education is that it lets you focus your "open-mindedness" on the interesting stuff, instead of wasting it on boring and mundane stuff like the EM spectrum, because you know how mundane and boring it is: http://www.e-builds.com/EM%20spectrum/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum
 themadfiddler
Joined: 9/17/2008
Msg: 125
Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/31/2009 2:20:22 PM


You may believe they are faeries if you wish, thats your choice. I prefer a more rational, scientific explanation.


As a further point to why I made the comparison to "faeries" I want to point out that this is not mere empty skepticism or an off-handed remark.

Former UFOlogist Jaques Vallee, the inspiration for the character of the French UFO specialist in the Spielberg film "Close Encounters of The Third Kind" wrote a volume on this many years ago called "Passport to Magonia" where he noted no less than twelve points of parallel between the classic faerie abduction stories and the alien abduction experience.

It was the complete lack of any tangible physical evidence and these parallels that began to convince him that the "aliens" of the modern era were an expression of the same experience and very much the same idea that Jung discusses in his 1959 "Flying Saucers: A Myth Of Things Seen In The Sky"

This is not to deny the "reality" of the experience had by the observer nor its impact...and the fact that such an experience may even be shared by others...but it does not seem to occur in what could be described as "consensus reality" nor in extension. And the rest, underground bases, conspiracy theories, etc. all have their roots demonstrably in pulp and occult fiction. Those who accept this without question, seriously need to take a harder look at the origins of the stories.

Clearly, something is occurring but the what is likely not what people think it is. It may be something far stranger. And the why will be equally complex



So it doesn't count if they show up at Walmart?
You assume they would know the difference?
Wouldn't it make more sense for them to land where they find lots of pickup trucks in the parking lot?


That is usually where they tend to show up isn't it? Well if Bubba just bought a new videophone, as long as he takes a pic before he bags one with the Remington pump action, I'll be happy.
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