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 Funcuz
Joined: 1/16/2009
Msg: 101
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Why should I believe in aliens?Page 5 of 14    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14)
^Yes , life seems to be very tenacious but first it has to get started which is really the crux of the matter. It only takes one spark to light a barrel of gasoline on fire and it won't be easy to extinguish. No spark means no fire though.
 yna6
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 102
Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/27/2009 7:46:10 PM
I think we can all agree that the universe is a huge place....with millions of stars and billions of planets. The thing that would scare the crap out of me is finding out that we ARE totally alone here.
Then again...perhaps the "creator" (name it what you will, or not....) was serious when he/she said "Go forth and multiply and fill the earth and the heavens..." Talk about a long term goal....
There has been plenty of documented UFO sightings....go check 'utoob' or whatever...plenty of them there.
So, where do all these reports and pictures come from? It will only be a matter of time before we start getting photos what with everyone running around with cellphone cams and such. Within 5 years we'll be seeing more "oddities" showing up...from Loch Ness to Bigfoot to aliens.
 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 103
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Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/27/2009 8:53:55 PM

Yes , life seems to be very tenacious but first it has to get started which is really the crux of the matter. It only takes one spark to light a barrel of gasoline on fire and it won't be easy to extinguish. No spark means no fire though.
The "primordial soup" experiment in 1953 used simulated lightning to synthesize (create) amino acids from methane. That's your "spark," literally.

From 1995-

http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SUA02/primordial_soup.php


LA JOLLA- In a simulation of the days when the Earth was covered in primordial ooze, researchers at the University of California, San Diego have synthesized pantetheine, an ingredient considered essential for the development of life on the planet.

The nature of the origin of life remains one of the most intriguing questions in biology. Researchers at the University of California, San Diego's Specialized Center of Research and Training in Exobiology are approaching the question by simulating environmental conditions as they are thought to have existed in "prebiotic" times. The researchers are studying the abiotic synthesis of biomolecules to determine which ones could have been present on Earth before life arose and, thus, may have been important to the first living organisms.

The UCSD research team is led by Dr. Stanley Miller. Dr. Miller is well known for his 'primordial soup' experiment conducted in 1953. At that time he demonstrated that amino acids could be formed by passing an electric current through a flask of methane. This suggested that life could have arisen from materials and conditions present in early Earth history.

Dr. Miller believes many other chemicals in addition to amino acids would have to have been present to facilitate the transition to living organisms. In particular, the presence of pantetheine could have enhanced the transition process. Pantetheine is related to coenzyme A, an essential component for protein formation. Coenzyme A is used by every known organism to assist in a wide variety of chemical reactions and it is possible that in the very earliest organisms this role was played by pantetheine alone, notes Miller.

In their recent experiment, the UCSD scientists heated a mixture of pantoyl lactone, beta- alanine and cysteamine at 40 degrees C (105 degrees F). All three chemicals are believed to have been present on the early Earth. Among the other chemicals formed was pantetheine. This suggests pantetheine could have been created at the margins of evaporating pools of water in prebiotic times.

"These components are extremely soluble and so would have been preferentially concentrated in evaporating bodies of water, for example on beaches and at lagoon margins. Our results show that amide bonds can be formed at temperatures as low as 40 degrees C, and provide circumstantial support for the suggestion that pantetheine and coenzyme A were important in the earliest metabolic systems," noted Miller.

There are two main hypotheses regarding the prebiotic synthesis of coenzymes. One, the "RNA world" hypothesis, holds that coenzymes were part of the covalent structure of RNA, and assisted in the RNA-based metabolism. Another hypothesis suggests that the RNA world was preceded by a thioester world. According to that hypothesis, coenzyme A played an essential role in the activation of amino acids and hydroxy acids in peptide synthesis.

The research provides evidence for the presence of an important ingredient in the original soup of life. It has been demonstrated that amino acids can form abiotically in a number of ways and are used by modern organisms for the manufacture of proteins. Sugars, however, which are components of modern genetic materials such as DNA or RNA are thought to be too unstable to have been widespread on Earth before life arose. Another of the remaining "big questions" is how and when did non-living molecules turn into life forms and begin to make copies of themselves.
Yes, I really do think life is every bit as common and as persistent as bread mold.
 Funcuz
Joined: 1/16/2009
Msg: 104
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Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/27/2009 9:51:00 PM
Yes , I remember reading about that (that's actually why I chose the word 'spark' lol) However , with an almost seemingly limitless number of 'caveats' (for lack of a better word) (and just the ones we're aware of for that matter) we're discovering that the Drake equation was probably fairly optimistic at best.

I'm not suggesting that there's no life beyond Earth. I really don't know of course. I'm just saying that the "It's so big , therefore there must be life somewhere else" argument isn't a solid foundation on which to build a case for extra-terrestrial life. Sweet spots in orbital distance from a star , sufficient mass to create enough gravity to retain any sort of atmosphere , sufficient density of a planet , not too much radiation while not having too little , etc. There are many factors to consider and they all have to be present at just the right time to give rise to any life we might recognize (and yes , that opens the door to life we might not recognize but for all intents and purposes , since we wouldn't know it if we saw it anyway , we can dismiss that side of the argument for the time being)

With trillions of stars it's probably a safe bet that these conditions have been met somewhere else in the universe at some point in time but time , of course , is the key factor here for us. If only one planet out of ten million stars can give rise to life , the odds that it will give rise to life while we're also extant really narrows things down quite a bit. Even at one in ten thousand stars , we're not that likely to ever come across life anywhere else in our galaxy never mind another civilization. The periods must overlap and in a universe where a million years is a blink of an eye , it's pretty easy for far-flung galactic civilizations to miss each other.

So far we know that planets are fairly ubiquitous. So far , so good. Unfortunately we have only once detected what is probably a planet of similar mass and density to Earth. There will of course be more that we just can't detect yet and actually , I'd guess that these types of planets are in the majority compared to gas giants. Again though , that's all we've got so far so while we can start making educated guesses about how often planetary systems are found around stars , we can't really say much about the properties of the planets constituting the systems. In fifty years I'm sure we'll have a much better idea but , with that said , we've been scanning the stars for decades now and we still haven't come across anything resembling a radio broadcast from another world. Basically , when it comes to the notion that there might be life in the universe beyond Earth, we just don't have any evidence. There probably is but even Dr. Miller there didn't create life , he just created organic matter.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 105
Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/28/2009 5:46:53 AM
funcuz, while I can't entirely disagree with your logic, I think it's important to point out that you've missed a factor, namely the availability of precursors for the development of life. Specifically, radio astronomers have discovered all manner of precursor chemicals including sugars, etc. They have also been found on meteorites.

Given what is known about planetary formation around stars - not necessarily sunlike but all kinds - and it's not hard to imagine a rocky world or even a moon of a gas giant that "wandered" into its life zone developing life.

Of course, the greatest probability is for the simplest of life forms. Hell, it took 4 billion years before the Cambrian explosion. However, time really is on the universe's side.

Sadly, I think you're right about the likelihood of intelligent lifeforms finding each other. Sure, it's probably happened somewhere in the universe that two nearby civilizations have discovered each other. Just not here. And I am HIGHLY skeptical of them buzzing around our atmosphere stuffing probes up our poopers.
 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 106
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Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/28/2009 12:55:07 PM
Okay, let's look at this from a strictly financial point of view.
Someone mentioned Australia. Well, I can visit Australia- I mean, the infrastructure exists, I can book a flight (or a cruise) there, and the cost is within my budget, if i don't buy groceries next month- uh, make that 3 months. I think the travel cost would be something like 10-20 cents a mile, so, on a cost-per-mile basis, a trip to Australia is no more expensive for me than a trip to the Grand Canyon.
Now let's compare a trip to Luna (aka "the Moon"). The cost-per-mile is actually a lot more expensive, but let's say we can do it for 20 cents a mile- that's about $95,000 for a round trip. I'll need to pick up a few sample rocks to sell on eBay to pay for the trip; that works until the market is flooded with tourist "Moon Rocks." I don't think ET is funding his Earth vacation selling cow kidneys on the ET eBay franchise.
Now, let's say that there is an interesting little inhabited planet reasonably close- say, 10 light years. Let's say GM has finally seen the light and has begun manufacturing personal starships (sort of like interstellar RVs) at affordable prices, using some of that Area 51 tech the government has been hoarding. Keeping the 20 cents per mile cost, figuring the round trip cost for 10 light years is- about 11 Trillion dollars? (Feel free to check the math, I did that in a hurry, it looks cheap to me).

Yeah, they need to be getting MUCH better mileage than my Buick.

Actually, I can see this turned into a sitcom- oh wait, they did that in the 60s with "Zorro" and "Timmy's Mom"- "Lost in Space..."
 REDDRAGON.
Joined: 10/9/2008
Msg: 107
Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 12:42:41 AM

>>>If they are no aliens, it's a colossal waste of space.

Ah, but the Universe doesn't need to justify its existence- it merely is, and its through observing the universe that real answers will be found.

>>>The universe is so old we may not even exist within the same window of opportunity to interact

Don't forget- while the universe is ancient, it is always changing- the number of stars can quickly become irrelevant the moment you remember that, after a point, the system could become cold and dark, or be completely annihilated. Some solar systems cannot support life because they simply do not have the materials- others could be too harsh, too hot, too cold, too gaseous, too rocky, ect- Life is given a very brief moment in Galactic time to appear, and it could just as quickly be extinguished


>>> please prove to me and every one else here that they don't exist???
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 108
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Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 2:05:35 AM

>>> please prove to me and every one else here that they don't exist???

Not required, and fallacious reasoning. Since there's no tangible evidence for their existence, and no circumstances which require their existence as an explanation, there's nothing to disprove.

The claims of tangible evidence have alternate viable explanations [or are simply false]. Most "evidence" is non-tangible and unsubstantiable anecdotes. The bulk of the rest is circular reasoning [aliens explains the lights in the sky; lights in the sky prove there are aliens].
 Pandora04
Joined: 7/27/2005
Msg: 109
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Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 5:05:44 AM
because you a pompus narrow minded person if you don't...how can you not...
do you really think they would show themselves to us...simple-minded...using less than 10 percent of our brains...blowing each other up...us?....
we send out all this stuff welcoming aliens...yet if they came...we would just try to blow them up...
don't you realise that we are the country bumpkins of the universe?...
I think they're already here....been here...
I think we are them....but that's a whole other subject...
 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 110
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Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 10:52:36 AM
If there is no other life in the Universe- or no other life we could interact with in any reasonable timeframe- then that means the Universe is ours for the taking, and that all the wealth that exists out there is ours to use and enjoy. There are no rules but the ones we set for ourselves, and no one else we have to share with. That means we can strip-mine Luna ("the Moon"), terraform Mars to our liking, sequestrate the atmosphere of Venus and rearrange the Moons of Jupiter as we please, as the technologies to do these things become available. More to the point, it now becomes economically viable to develop them.
It should be possible to ravage the surface of Luna for whatever minerals we need, refining ore with solar energy. From Luna we can launch interplanetary expeditions to other planets, exploiting them as we desire, all the while enriching we humans, who have no competition anywhere in the Universe.
It's Manifest Destiny that we should own and rule the stars, because no one is there to oppose us.

HOWEVER-

We may wish to tread more lightly if we're not alone.
 Poly_Hymnia
Joined: 3/7/2009
Msg: 111
Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 11:57:08 AM
You know, this question has been asked time and time again in these forums. The thing I have learned, is either you believe or you don't. You can't convince a non-believer. What's important, is the non-believers, voice your opinions but have respect for those that DO believe.

Arguing with a non-believer is like yelling at the sky. Pointless and a waste of energy.
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 112
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Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 12:05:59 PM

Arguing with a non-believer is like yelling at the sky. Pointless and a waste of energy.


There's no arguing required. All you have to do is produce some verifiable, even-vaguely-convincing evidence. If' that's "pointless and a waste of time" to you, then we know where the problem lies.
 ardentx
Joined: 12/27/2008
Msg: 113
Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 12:10:22 PM
Only accept scientific evidence . . . Yea because that makes it fact, just like when the earth was flat, when the sub orbited the earth and all the rest. Evidence published in a journal is no different from information published on Wikipedia and your school history books, it's all created by someone else, to convince you of something you haven't a clue about, you just choose to believe the scientific side of it.

You don't know any better so basing your opinion on someone elses is as daft as basing it on the Koran or the Dead Sea scrolls.
 ardentx
Joined: 12/27/2008
Msg: 114
Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 12:14:00 PM
We could always get the believers who put their love and their faith in Allah in here, you could attempt to convince them that because a scientific journal doesn't publish pictures of Allah walking around with a sandwich board around his neck, that he doesn't exist. See how far you get.

You either believe or not, it's like the lottery, no one believes they will ever win, and most never do, but at some point, you look down, having put your dole money on the lotto, and realize, your a millionaire.
 Funcuz
Joined: 1/16/2009
Msg: 115
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Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 12:22:01 PM
You know, this question has been asked time and time again in these forums. The thing I have learned, is either you believe or you don't. You can't convince a non-believer. What's important, is the non-believers, voice your opinions but have respect for those that DO believe.

Arguing with a non-believer is like yelling at the sky. Pointless and a waste of energy.

Ha ha ha ... well there's irony for you. Some people want evidence proving ET's have visitied Earth. That's hardly unreasonable. Belief despite a lack of evidence...well , that's unreasonable.
Most people are open or , at the very least are opening up to the possibility that life exists elsewhere in the universe. As I said earlier , I'd bet money that there's plenty of life out there but that doesn't mean any of it has ever noticed Earth if it even has the capability to do so. The issue is that we don't know how often life develops , we don't know how often the life that develops ever spawns a civilization , and we don't have any proof that ET life has ever visited Earth. Anybody can believe in fairies and fire-breathing dragons too if they want to...that doesn't mean they exist.

Edit : Oh , and incidentally , it's a modern myth that everybody ever thought the Earth was flat. We proved it was a sphere well over two thousand years ago. Believe whatever you want but at least with science , you can always check for yourself.
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 116
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Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 12:32:27 PM
Science never showed that the Earth was flat. In fact, it showed the opposite, over 2000 years ago.

The scientific method is the only objective method of providing explanations which work. Explanations achieved through this method can be verified by anyone, because the methods, materials, conclusions, and logic are all laid out for anyone to examine and repeat. It's not feasible for any one person to verify even a tiny fraction of all science, so it's a given that it will usually be taken "on faith". However, because scientific conclusions are designed to be consistent and predictable, a single false claim can easily be discovered when 1000 more studies fail.

The first conclusion becomes an assumption for many things to follow. If the assumption is wrong, the results won't go as expected. If a manufacturer claims a shelf will hold 1000 kilograms [a scientific claim based on knowledge of the properties of the materials, and their shapes and structures], and you later create an experiment using these shelves... If they collapse at 500 kg, you will have obvious questions:
1) did I make a mistake?
2) was this coincidence? did I repeat the experiment enough times to reasonably rule out bad luck?
3) were my initial beliefs wrong?
Those are pretty standard questions for unexpected results, so trusting in scientific conclusions isn't simply a matter of faith. It's a matter of synergistic evidence.

Some of us are actually pretty good at not only reading and understanding the science, but at understanding how many fields are interdependant.

Believing in "aliens", in the sense of sapient extraterrestrial visitors to this planet, is not supported by any evidence. Believing in extraterrestrial life of ANY sort, is supported by chemistry, physics, and astronomy. The conditions and requirements for life seem to be broad and common, and life itself would seem to be an almost inevitable result of complex chemistry.
 kevlarcardhouse
Joined: 2/7/2009
Msg: 117
Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 12:49:23 PM

Evidence published in a journal is no different from information published on Wikipedia and your school history books, it's all created by someone else, to convince you of something you haven't a clue about, you just choose to believe the scientific side of it.

It's clear you have no idea how the scientific process works to make that claim. Any reputable science journal forces a scientist to allow others to read and scrutinize all his findings, and point out any points of contention, before he even is allowed to try and present it.

Maybe aliens exist. But I know there has been no evidence so far that they do, so until then, I don't see why I should believe in it.
 Last not Least
Joined: 10/27/2007
Msg: 118
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Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 1:18:51 PM
Anatomy of a delusion.

Lifeforms that exist on other planets are always much more advanced than we are and almost certainly much more benevolent than we are. So mankind is evil and needs some advanced species to travel trillions of miles through space to come and fix our problems and help us become more advanced like they are.

What are the odds that another species with the wherewithall to travel through space with the same ease as we drive to the neighbourhood Walmart will have the enormous generosity to fix all our problems and make us all better people? Damned slim odds if you ask me.
Besides, if they find out anything about our religion, they will hear about a guy who was supposed to be the child of our precious god who came to earth and wanted us all to be nice to each other and be better people and we nailed him to a cross.
I'd think that wouldn't be much incentive to stop at this planet and to keep going looking for intelligent life in our universe. (Good luck with that fellas)
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 119
Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 1:35:29 PM
@ Irespire

Until extraterrestrials land on the White House lawn, I shall not believe in them.


I thought it was our extraterrestrial masters who get elected & LIVE in the White House. In any event, it's best not to believe in them!javascript:smilie('')
 Soul Union
Joined: 6/9/2007
Msg: 120
Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 2:24:18 PM
Some of us are actually pretty good at not only reading and understanding the science, but at understanding how many fields are interdependant. [sic] Believing in "aliens", in the sense of sapient extraterrestrial visitors to this planet, is not supported by any evidence. - FrogO eyes


Conventional wisdom.

- Peter
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 121
Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 6:49:01 PM

Conventional wisdom.

- Peter


Also, defensible logic. Let's say I show up one day to a UFO/Alien Abduction Convention and say I've got a gray alien in my trunk. I open it up and there's nothing there. I argue, but of course he's there. Can't you see it? You must not belief well enough that aliens exist. C'mon, he's right there? Can't see him? Well then, he must be hiding. You can't prove he's not there.

I wonder what would happen?
 Funcuz
Joined: 1/16/2009
Msg: 122
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Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 8:59:53 PM

Lifeforms that exist on other planets are always much more advanced than we are and almost certainly much more benevolent than we are.

How do you know ? Been travelling around the galaxy ?
Even if you could actually travel across the universe , you'd still be wrong though. Unless you believe that advanced and benevolent civilizations can just spring up out rocks or something.

So mankind is evil and needs some advanced species to travel trillions of miles through space to come and fix our problems and help us become more advanced like they are.

If you say so.
I really don't understand why some folks are so eager to write humanity off as some sort of global pestilence. We're not perfect but that doesn't make us all galactic trash either.

What are the odds that another species with the wherewithall to travel through space with the same ease as we drive to the neighbourhood Walmart will have the enormous generosity to fix all our problems and make us all better people? Damned slim odds if you ask me.
Besides, if they find out anything about our religion, they will hear about a guy who was supposed to be the child of our precious god who came to earth and wanted us all to be nice to each other and be better people and we nailed him to a cross.
I'd think that wouldn't be much incentive to stop at this planet and to keep going looking for intelligent life in our universe. (Good luck with that fellas)

Yeah...there it is again ; That's the same old "We're not worthy of anything but contempt and a quick death" nonsense. Who's to say that if there are other advanced civilizations running around the cosmos that they were any different at any point in their own evolution ? So often , those things that people think make us all so bad just happen to be the same things that got us to where we are today.
Frankly , I'm tired of that cliche about how humanity is so wretched that no advanced ET civilization would even slow down to wave on the way by. Do you guys even know why you think that way about mankind or is it just another one of those bandwagons that so many people love to jump on without actually thinking first ?
 Last not Least
Joined: 10/27/2007
Msg: 123
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Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 10:16:27 PM
Actually you didn't pick up on it but I was speaking from the mentality standpoint of the true believers. Perhaps your sarcasm meter is set too low to detect it.
It just seems that people have given up on religion as a means of salvation and look to the stars for some savior race to come and save us instead.
Don't look at me chum, I don't believe in any of this alien hooey. I think that if an alien race has nothing better to do than to anal probe hillbillies on earth and be voyeurs in the intimate details of we mere human beings, they couldn't be a whole lot more advanced if that is all they have to do with their enlightened minds.
 Funcuz
Joined: 1/16/2009
Msg: 124
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Why should I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 10:25:17 PM
Ha ha...sorry. I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic or not and there was no clear tip off so I just figured you probably meant it. Thankfully for the human race, you don't and I thank you for it.
 Wayfaring_one
Joined: 5/25/2008
Msg: 125
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Why shouldn't I believe in aliens?
Posted: 3/29/2009 10:35:53 PM

There's no arguing required. All you have to do is produce some verifiable, even-vaguely-convincing evidence.



The undeniable reality is that there are a substantial number of multi-sensor UFO cases backed by thousands of credible witnesses. In the physical domain there are many photos, videos, radar tracking, satellite sensor reports, landing traces including depressions and anomalous residual radiation, electromagnetic interference, and confirmed physiological effects. Personal observations have been made both day and night, often under excellent visibility with some at close range. Included are reports from multiple independent witnesses to the same event. Psychological testing of some observers has confirmed their mentally competence. Why is none of this considered evidence?

There are over 3000 cases reported by pilots, some of which include interference with flight controls. On numerous occasions air traffic controllers and other radar operators have noted unexplained objects on their scopes. So too have several astronomers and other competent scientists reported their personal observations. Many military officials from several countries have confirmed multi-sensor observations of UFOs. The most senior air defense officers of Russia, Brazil, Belgium and recently a former Chief of Naval Operations in Chile all have stated that UFOs are real. These cases and comments are a miniscule fraction of the total body of evidence.
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